NBA to "lockout refs"

[stevew]

NBA referees expected a lockout to be "imminent" after negotiations Wednesday between their union and the league failed to produce a new collective agreement.

After rejecting the league's latest offer by a vote of 57-0 at their meeting in Chicago on Wednesday night, the union and league exchanged further counterproposals Thursday, with the union claiming to have made $1 million in additional financial concessions.

But the talks ended at an impasse, and lead union negotiator Lamell McMorris said there remained a crucial unresolved dispute over the same retirement benefit issue, relating to severance pay, that caused commissioner David Stern to abruptly end a formal bargaining session nine days earlier.

A source close to the talks said there were other unresolved issues, too, including the use of D-League and WNBA referees in regular-season NBA games, a separate pension issue concerning employer vs. employee contributions to referees' retirement plans, and myriad other comparatively minor dollars-and-cents issues pertaining to salaries, per diems, and medical and dental benefits

"It looks like a lockout is both imminent and unavoidable," McMorris said. "We have suspended dialogue again today. We've been in constant communication, but it's not going to happen."

"I am not optimistic," lead NBA negotiator Rich Buchanan told ESPN.com. "Based on what happened today, I'm surprised and disappointed."

Technically, the referees are not yet locked out.

But their training camp is scheduled to begin Sunday in New Jersey, and McMorris said the 57 current referees would not attend if they do not have an agreement in principle to replace the labor agreement that expired Sept. 1.

The first exhibition game is Oct. 1 in Utah, and the NBA faces the prospect of using replacement officials for the first time since 1995.

With talks at an impasse, McMorris and the referees gathered at an airport hotel outside Chicago on Wednesday and Thursday to discuss strategy and attempt to move the process forward. But the talks collapsed by mid-afternoon and the referees were sent home.

On the issue of severance pay, it has been long standing practice for NBA referees to receive a severance package upon retirement, plus their pension. The NBA wants to eliminate the lump sum severance payment upon retirement for new referees and those with less than 10 years of service, and the union is not budging.

"There are some changes that they would make that would drastically change the scope and nature of certain benefits to the referees in the NBA," McMorris said. "Our fight is for all of the officials, not for a certain segment of them, not for a certain age, etcetera, and these folks are willing to stand up for everyone to receive certain benefits that have been a part of this job, which is like no other job in the world, for some time now.

On the unresolved D-League and WNBA referee issue, the NBA wants to use those referees in 75-100 regular season games instead of sticking with the current system in which they only are allowed to officiate preseason games.

"There are concessions they're willing to make, there are changes they're willing to make, we gave back an additional $1 million in concessions in the last 24 hours, but there are some things we cannot concede," McMorris said. "I don't know how you can lockout employees that are willing to continue to give back money, that's just kind of beyond me. But the fall work schedule begins this weekend, and it appears that is not going to happen. It's not going to happen with us, it's not going to happen with the 57 active referees."

Entering Wednesday's meetings, the referees claimed they had agreed to $2.5 million of the $3.2 million in concessions the league was seeking.

The NBA believes the gap was more significant, and has made the case that it make a substantial concession in agreeing to the union's request for a two-year deal to bridge the league's economic crisis. Traditionally, the NBA has negotiated five-year labor pacts with the referees.

But the crux of the crisis now is the NBA's continuing belief that McMorris reneged on his word at the talks in New York nine days ago, and also the league's belief that the union backed off two additional agreements during Wednesday's talks. If both sides dig in their heels, which seemed to be the case as Wednesday's developments unfolded, it would only back up McMorris' prediction that a lockout is indeed imminent.

Alright, for starters, how much worse would the quality of play be if the short balding jackasses with shirts two sizes too small were gone? I think a collection of the best scab refs out there might actually improve the game? Maybe? Invariably they will reach a settlement here. But when the NBA refs union represents such a collection of assholes and unqualified douches, I'm hoping they don't.

[RomaGoth]

The NBA has referees?

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by stevew

Alright, for starters, how much worse would the quality of play be if the short balding jackasses with shirts two sizes too small were gone? I think a collection of the best scab refs out there might actually improve the game? Maybe? Invariably they will reach a settlement here. But when the NBA refs union represents such a collection of assholes and unqualified douches, I'm hoping they don't.

This is where I'm at as well. Will we notice if there are replacement refs? I think it would be funny if they brought in a bunch of new refs who didn't know they had to give the vets like Kobe, LeBron, and Shaq special treatment...

[Gary Gorski]

Coming to a NBA arena near you this season...Travelling!

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Coming to a NBA arena near you this season...Travelling!

How does this make the NBA any different?

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

How does this make the NBA any different?

I meant that the scab officials might not understand the NBA rules regarding travelling and mistakenly whistle a number of players for it.

Then again I am sure Stern will make them go through a crash course to learn the finer points of calling a NBA game including new additions to the rules for the 09-10 season like the "crab dribble".

[Big Fo]

Maybe the new guys won't blow the whistle on D12 every time he breathes on somebody. Or bet on the games.

[DeToxRox]

First time LBJ gets 6 fouls the lockout will be over.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Or bet on the games.

QFT

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Maybe the new guys won't blow the whistle on D12 every time he breathes on somebody. Or bet on the games.

But the NBA will have to go to the trouble of finding new company men

SI

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

This was the case with baseball umpires a few years ago. The move to unify the umpires rather than have them work only one league or the other along with the failed attempt to resign en masse to put pressure on MLB were huge. The current group of umpires are much better and younger than what they used to be. Having an umpire die on the field certainly helped motivate them to stay in better shape as well, which hasn't hurt their performance one bit.

[cougarfreak]

I read they make something like $250K a year. What the hell could they have to complain about?

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

I read they make something like $250K a year. What the hell could they have to complain about?

Well, if I read that lump-sum retirement benefits thing right, apparently they are upset that the NBA could hire a new ref, he could work for 2 years, leave, and not get a lump sum retirement payment. From the reading of it, it's all about short-timers not getting some sweetheart retirement deal? And the old-timers are annoyed at this? Really?

Anyway, we saw the ruckus the players raised with the new ball, wait until Kobe and King James can no longer just throw themselves at the basket and expect a foul...

[gstelmack]

Someone has GOT to make a Youtube video of the NBA's crash-training course for the replacement NBAs, with high points like:

- How not to call a travel
- How not to call a foul when a star player takes a swing at someone
- How to call a foul on the defense when a star player drives the basket
- How to call an occasional charge to make the constant blocking calls look legit
- How to call a "makeup" call at a non-critical time to make things look legit
- How not to get caught placing bets with your bookie
- How to cover your cell phone tracks so you don't bring down someone else if you do get caught
...

[molson]

Maybe I don't have the keenest basketball eye, but it seems like it's impossible to call an NBA game well.

Foul/Charge/No-Call decisions seem completely random.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by molson

Maybe I don't have the keenest basketball eye, but it seems like it's impossible to call an NBA game well.

Foul/Charge/No-Call decisions seem completely random.

The good thing will be with the scabs we no longer will have the refs to blame for a team''s loss because the scabs will be calling perfect games.

[gstelmack]

Travelling is usually pretty obvious though. They let these guys take 5-6 steps sometimes.

The charge thing is that it is a legitimate tactic in the NBA these days to just charge the basket and expect to get a call.

I'm not talking "did he hit him or not?" things, I'm talking regular obvious blatant things that just aren't basketball to me.

[Cap Ologist]

League popularity is at an all-time high, though.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

I read they make something like $250K a year. What the hell could they have to complain about?

3K per game is reasonable. Considering how much stress

[Big Fo]

Good points from molson and miami fan, although I often find myself complaining about bad calls in the NBA it does seem like NBA referees have a more difficult job than refs/officals/umpires in the other sports and I know I probably couldn't do it well in real time without all the slow-motion replays that show me a call was bad and get me riled up.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Good points from molson and miami fan, although I often find myself complaining about bad calls in the NBA it does seem like NBA referees have a more difficult job than refs/officals/umpires in the other sports and I know I probably couldn't do it well in real time without all the slow-motion replays that show me a call was bad and get me riled up.

Oh I love to bash a ref as much as anybody

I think there is a double standard between the expectations and reactions to basketball officiating (specifically the NBA but it happens in college as well) and the officiating in other sports.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by stevew

3K per game is reasonable. Considering how much stress

$3,000.00 a GAME? utter and complete bullshit that a ref makes that fucking much money. Especially as shitty as these refs do the job.

Reasonable my white hairy ass. When a teacher or a cop or a firefighter has to get by on a tenth of that? HELL no.

[stevew]

What should they make then? 50 bucks plus a free hot dog?

Division 1 refs in football make something like 1500 a game.

I'm not going to dispute that these guys are morons, but the amount of pay they make is pretty relative to the level of the league and the amount of revenue the sport produces.

[RendeR]

I could see probably 1/5 to 1/4 of that being fine. It would allow them to make a good living, take good care of their families and all that. But 240k? Realize their travel is paid their meals are paid their uniforms and basically any costs they incur while traveling to and from the games is paid. They apparently have a pretty good retirement plan as well or they wouldn't be fighting over it so hard.

And you think they should get 240K+ a year too? For reffing at most 3 games a week for 6 months? Its a ridiculous amount of money.

[chadritt]

Meh, the leagues got the money so im not sure who I would rather it went to. Its not like somehow this money is going to be redistributed to the teachers and firefighters of the world

[RendeR]

Diola-deleted(damnit) As for football refs they at least have their own jobs in the offseason. Also their job is far more physically dangerous than reffing BB. I still don't think they should be making 1500 a game though.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by chadritt

Meh, the leagues got the money so im not sure who I would rather it went to. Its not like somehow this money is going to be redistributed to the teachers and firefighters of the world

I understand that, I simply can't get past the outrage I feel that something as stupid as refereeing a game should net someone such a ridiculous amount of money.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Cap Ologist

League popularity is at an all-time high, though.

maybe world wide popularity but not in the US

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RendeR

$3,000.00 a GAME? utter and complete bullshit that a ref makes that fucking much money. Especially as shitty as these refs do the job.

Reasonable my white hairy ass. When a teacher or a cop or a firefighter has to get by on a tenth of that? HELL no.

That's not even $300,000 if they get some playoff games. Doesn't seem that high considering the responsibility, stress, and travel schedule.

I mean we're talking $9,000 a game for officials. That's a few courtside seats at most stadiums. Doesn't seem like a lot for 3 people who dramatically influence the game. If you don't pay them too, you get more Donaghy situations.

[sooner333]

Refs get paid less in Division I, but they also get to work 6 days a week since there's really no regulation and they're all independent contractors with the schools/conferences. You get the good ones (or at least good reputations) that get the most gigs. It seems a bit better that way.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That's not even $300,000 if they get some playoff games. Doesn't seem that high considering the responsibility, stress, and travel schedule.

I mean we're talking $9,000 a game for officials. That's a few courtside seats at most stadiums. Doesn't seem like a lot for 3 people who dramatically influence the game. If you don't pay them too, you get more Donaghy situations.

Wow, well ya know? I want to work based on your perception of reasonable because I'd be making 8-10 time what I normally do.

Responsibility? Stress? They moderate a basketball game. If they're that stressed they're DOING IT WRONG.

I'll give you the travel schedule, but quite frankly I've already noted that they don't have to pay for any of that, they're covered top to bottom while on the road.

Maybe I'm just confused, but I simply can't accept that funning around on a court for 3 hours (MAx since the game isn't even an hour long in playing time) and failing utterly at actually calling the game by the rules as written for the league (charging, blocvking, TRAVELING and more) should qualify anyone to make 6 figure salaries.

its an insult to the working class in this country who pay the ridiculous ticket prices to go see said events.

Sadly, the sheep of the world (yes by this I mean you me and everyone thats ever paid for a ticket) will probably just keep doing so.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Wow, well ya know? I want to work based on your perception of reasonable because I'd be making 8-10 time what I normally do.

Responsibility? Stress? They moderate a basketball game. If they're that stressed they're DOING IT WRONG.

I'll give you the travel schedule, but quite frankly I've already noted that they don't have to pay for any of that, they're covered top to bottom while on the road.

Maybe I'm just confused, but I simply can't accept that funning around on a court for 3 hours (MAx since the game isn't even an hour long in playing time) and failing utterly at actually calling the game by the rules as written for the league (charging, blocvking, TRAVELING and more) should qualify anyone to make 6 figure salaries.

its an insult to the working class in this country who pay the ridiculous ticket prices to go see said events.

Sadly, the sheep of the world (yes by this I mean you me and everyone thats ever paid for a ticket) will probably just keep doing so.

Just to be clear... You want the NBA, a league coming off of a referee gambling scandal, to pay guys that work alongside multi-millionaires everyday and can easily determine the outcome of games that routinely have 10s to 100s of millions riding on them... $30-50K per year?

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Wow, well ya know? I want to work based on your perception of reasonable because I'd be making 8-10 time what I normally do.

Responsibility? Stress? They moderate a basketball game. If they're that stressed they're DOING IT WRONG.

I'll give you the travel schedule, but quite frankly I've already noted that they don't have to pay for any of that, they're covered top to bottom while on the road.

Maybe I'm just confused, but I simply can't accept that funning around on a court for 3 hours (MAx since the game isn't even an hour long in playing time) and failing utterly at actually calling the game by the rules as written for the league (charging, blocvking, TRAVELING and more) should qualify anyone to make 6 figure salaries.

its an insult to the working class in this country who pay the ridiculous ticket prices to go see said events.

Sadly, the sheep of the world (yes by this I mean you me and everyone thats ever paid for a ticket) will probably just keep doing so.

If it so offends you then don't go. I'm not really sure why your opinion of what they make matters. It's collectively bargained and if that is what they negotiate then that's the market value of their skills.

There are 57 of them in the world. That's why they make more then fireman.

[Cap Ologist]

Originally Posted by Chubby

maybe world wide popularity but not in the US

Yeah, I was being sarcastic, that's Stern's pat answer to pretty much any question.

[JHandley]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Wow, well ya know? I want to work based on your perception of reasonable because I'd be making 8-10 time what I normally do.

Responsibility? Stress? They moderate a basketball game. If they're that stressed they're DOING IT WRONG.

I'll give you the travel schedule, but quite frankly I've already noted that they don't have to pay for any of that, they're covered top to bottom while on the road.

Maybe I'm just confused, but I simply can't accept that funning around on a court for 3 hours (MAx since the game isn't even an hour long in playing time) and failing utterly at actually calling the game by the rules as written for the league (charging, blocvking, TRAVELING and more) should qualify anyone to make 6 figure salaries.

its an insult to the working class in this country who pay the ridiculous ticket prices to go see said events.

Sadly, the sheep of the world (yes by this I mean you me and everyone thats ever paid for a ticket) will probably just keep doing so.

This is just dangerously naive.

First. It's not like these guys work for three hours, then go hang out at the craps tables (well... ). The three hours you see them is just the tip of the iceberg. They have meetings with teams, go over tapes, meet with league officials, go over tapes, get judged on their performance, and then go over tapes. They put in a full days work.

Second. If we were talking pee-wee's you have a point about stress, but watch a pee-wee game some time and watch the stress and aggravation that those parents put the ref's through. Tell them that there's no reason for them to stress over a call.

We're not talking some funning around out there, everyone involved has MILLIONS of dollars riding on you. Players, coaches, owners, sponsors, posse's, entourages, the list goes on and on. That's before you get to the tens of millions being wagered on the game. You can't really think they don't apply pressure. Serious pressure at that.

Third. I've never heard of anyone complaining as hard as you are that the owners don't make enough money. They aren't paying these guys with monopoly money. If the money doesn't go to them, it's going to stay with the owners. If the salary is dropped from $250k to $75k annually The end result of what you're advocating is that the owners make an additional $10M annually.

Fourth. I do believe you are confused about what reasonable means. Reasonable means that they are getting their fair share of the money generated by their efforts. Put into those terms, $250k a year is definitely reasonable and it could be argued they are getting a little shafted.

It's definitely both noble and naive to wish that the blue-color working families made more money at the expense of people who don't. It's just never going to happen. Never ever. It's exactly like getting outraged the sun came up this morning. This is what it's like in the really real world.

[RendeR]

A) My opinion only really matters to me. Not my problem if you dislike it or disagree. just life.

B) Reasonable, to ME, is not based on a fair share of the profits, its based on the value of what you actually do. The real time and work you put into something compared to everyone else and the work THEY put into something. No, its not fair as life works right now and sitting back and being accepting of our sports stars and teh refs et-al and the money being thrown at them is, to me, simply insulting to every other person out there busting their ass for 10-20 bucks an hour. Let alone those making less, of which there are FAR more.

It may be Naive to wish for something, but at least by voicing my opinions or "wishes" as you say I'm not sitting on my ass simply accepting it. Maybe it won't change anything at all, maybe its foolish, but there is certainly nothing wrong with throwing the ridiculousness of the situation out there in the light for all to see every now and again.

Personally I would think it makes more sense to simply say "Yeah Ren, yer right, but thats how things are" than to have the temerity to actually try and defend the situation and claim anyone "deserves" that kind of compensation. Its just silly.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RendeR

B)sits based on the value of what you actually do. The real time and work you put into something compared to everyone else and the work THEY put into something.

Fine.

But the value of what you do is, in significant part, determined by the scarcity of people who can also do something at the same level.

And those $10-$20 hour workers (much less those below that) are usually quite easy to replace, whereas professional caliber officials (however low that standard may be in the case of the NBA) are not. Hence the additional value.

It's a harsh reality that most of the rank & file in the world could be replaced by a computer, machine, or minimally trained chimp but that's still the reality. We have a surplus of people, a shortage of work for them to do, supply & demand takes over and they're ultimately paid in the neighborhood of what they're worth, often more than that due to government interference.

[RendeR]

Reality != whats right and good

But hey, I'm feeling positive about life. By this time tomorrow I'll probably delete everything I said and replace it with "Fuck it, pay them MORE maybe they'll stop reffing altogether!"

[JHandley]

I'm not sure where sitting on your ass whining about it is doing a helluva a lot more than sitting on my ass accepting it.

You think it's silly to defend people making what the market says they should make. That's fine. I think it's silly to make a fuss out of ref's taking an extra $10M out of the pocket of multi-billionaire owners.

Of course you think it makes more sense for people to just agree with you. The problem is, I don't agree with you. I think you are wrong. I think they are making what they should make. The old line about in a market economy, no one is overpaid comes to mind.

Anyway, as you said, only your opinion matters to you, so we aren't going to get anywhere with this. Hope you keep your good vibes going.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

There are 57 of them in the world. That's why they make more then fireman.

This line of thinking is where the baseball umpires got into a lot of trouble and the NBA refs will run into the same issue if they use this logic. The various levels of basketball (NBA, WNBA, NCAA, Developmental NBA) along with overseas leagues allow for a huge talent pool when it comes to referees. Baseball umps found that out when they were replaced with umps who were just as talented if not more talented than the existing ones. NBA refs will suffer the same fate if they take their position for granted.

[Dr. Sak]

Ok as most of you know I might be biased in this argument. But I'll ask you one question:

Whether it be college or pros...would you want an official that only makes as little as some of you suggested, officiating a game you are coaching where your livelihood is on the line?

I know I only do D3 football right now, but we meet every Wednesday for 3 hours to watch film, go over rules, and debate philosophies. Plus I probably watch about 10 hrs of film a week (all for $200 a game). It is stressed that we HAVE to know the rules and make sure fouls are fouls because people's jobs are on the line.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

There are 57 of them in the world. That's why they make more then fireman.

Like MBBF said- there are 57 jobs in the world, but there are more than 57 qualified to do said job. So, it's kindof like any other job- there are more people than there are positions to fill. Those who get to the top kindof stay there due to seniority not due to merit, like players have to.

SI

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Like MBBF said- there are 57 jobs in the world, but there are more than 57 qualified to do said job. So, it's kindof like any other job- there are more people than there are positions to fill. Those who get to the top kindof stay there due to seniority not due to merit, like players have to.

SI

Don't forget politics...that plays a huge part. I guess that plays into your merit arguement.

[molson]

The refs are gambling here a little (I mean in the legal, negotiation sense), but to get to $250k/year or whatever they make now, they must have gambled and negotiated well in the past.

Seniority means something for an NBA ref - you don't want to just throw out new, cheaper guys all the time, its a recipe for fixed games gallore. There's a lot of value in having senior guys with long track records you can evaluate, and who have built up a comfortable living. That's a pretty small investment for the NBA.

Do they "deserve" $250k - of course not - but they got it, good for them. If you're jelous, go try to be an NBA referee.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Don't forget politics...that plays a huge part. I guess that plays into your merit arguement.

It does. I agree.

I should state my knowledge of the baseball situation. I have a close friend who worked the minor leagues for 11 years. When the umpire situation hit the fan, he got his big chance along with many other younger umpires who were being held back by the senority system in place. He's been in the league every since and has a very good track record.

He said that most people in baseball (coaches, players, owners) are much happier with the new system in place now. They feel like they get a much better game out of the umps when they get promoted based on merit rather than the old senority system that used to dominate baseball.

[Logan]

Sounds like every young teacher I know in New Jersey.

Except there's is still broken.

[molson]

I still remember the back page headline from the NY Post 10 years ago when the MLB umps walked out:

"Go Ahead And Walk, You Porky Chumps"

I miss the Post.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by molson

Do they "deserve" $250k - of course not - but they got it, good for them. If you're jelous, go try to be an NBA referee.

The bolded part is really all I'm saying. I find it an affront to people, but as you say, they got it.

And just to be clear its not a jealousy issue. I'd love to make 250k a year, as any of us surely would, but I want to make it doing something really valuable. I don't have the skill set to DO that, so I live with making what I can at what I can do.

Anyway, I'll leave it be now. I've said my piece.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

This line of thinking is where the baseball umpires got into a lot of trouble and the NBA refs will run into the same issue if they use this logic. The various levels of basketball (NBA, WNBA, NCAA, Developmental NBA) along with overseas leagues allow for a huge talent pool when it comes to referees. Baseball umps found that out when they were replaced with umps who were just as talented if not more talented than the existing ones. NBA refs will suffer the same fate if they take their position for granted.

I'm just saying why they make a lot of money. I understand they can be replaced. Whoever gets the job is going to make a lot, be it these clowns, or other jackasses.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by RendeR

The bolded part is really all I'm saying. I find it an affront to people, but as you say, they got it.

And just to be clear its not a jealousy issue. I'd love to make 250k a year, as any of us surely would, but I want to make it doing something really valuable. I don't have the skill set to DO that, so I live with making what I can at what I can do.

Anyway, I'll leave it be now. I've said my piece.

So you'd turn down a raise to 300k doing what you do because it isn't something 'really valuable'?

If the money people make is an affront why does anyone go to a movie, or watch any game, or go to a casino, or read a bestseller? Why do I have to hear constantly about asshat Jerry Jones and his stadium? Isn't that stadium an affront to people?

You get paid what the market bears. These clowns may cost themselves their jobs but 250k isn't exactly a king's ransom. I probably wouldn't agree to go out on the road for more then half the year for that.

I work with dozens of people who do way less then an NBA referee and make way more without spending half their year in Memphis or Oklahoma City.