Football Hall of Fame consideration list announced

[cartman]

The 25 people up for discussion has been announced. Here is the list:

Terrell Davis, RB (1995-2001 Broncos)
Dermontti Dawson, C (1988-2000 Steelers)
Fred Dean, DE (1975-81 Chargers; '81-85 49ers)
Richard Dent, DE (1983-93, 95 Bears; '94 49ers; '96 Colts; '97 Eagles)
Randy Gradishar, LB (1974-83 Broncos)
Kevin Greene, LB-DE (1985-92 Rams; '93-95 Steelers, '96, '98-99 Panthers; '97 49ers)
Russ Grimm, G (1981-91 Washington Redskins)
Ray Guy, P (1973-86 Oakland-Los Angeles Raiders)
Charles Haley, DE-LB (1986-91, '99 49ers; '92-96 Cowboys)
Lester Hayes, CB (1977-86 Oakland-Los Angeles Raiders)
Michael Irvin, WR (1988-99 Cowboys)
Bob Kuechenberg, G (1970-84 Dolphins)
Bruce Matthews, G-T-C (1983-2001 Oilers-Titans)
Randall McDaniel, G (1988-99 Vikings; 2000-01 Buccaneers)
Art Modell, Owner (1961-95 Cleveland Browns; 1996-2003 Baltimore Ravens)
Art Monk, WR (1980-93 Redskins; '94 Jets; '95 Eagles)
Andre Reed, WR (1985-99 Bills; 2000 Redskins)
Ken Stabler, QB (1970-79 Raiders; '80-81 Oilers; '82-84 Saints)
Paul Tagliabue (1989-2006 National Football League Commissioner)
Derrick Thomas, LB (1989-99 Chiefs)
Thurman Thomas, RB (1988-99 Bills; 2000 Dolphins)
Andre Tippett, LB (1982-93 Patriots)
Roger Wehrli, CB (1969-82 St. Louis Cardinals)
George Young, GM-admin. (1968-74 Colts; '75-78 Dolphins; '79-97 Giants '98-2001 NFL)

Off of this list, who are the most likely to make it? I know we've had discussions along these lines before, but now the list is official.

My picks are:

Charles Haley
Ray Guy
Paul Tagliabue
Thurman Thomas
Derrick Thomas

Three to six players off of this list will be inducted, according to the press release.

[miami_fan]

Please let Art Modell make it. I don't know if he deserves but it would be interesting to see how he would be "welcomed" by the crowd.

[JPhillips]

Tagliabue is a lock, obviously. It will be interesting to see if they also take both Young and Modell. I'm sure Modell is a lock, but I don't know if they'll do three execs in the same year.

As for players I think Thomas is a good pick and Ray Guy should already be in. I bet Irvin makes it as does Bruce Matthews. My guess is one of Haley and Thomas misses out.

And Art Monk will be unjustly denied again.

[digamma]

Irvin will get in this year.

[johnnyshaka]

I honestly don't know how Monk isn't already in...that's just a travesty. A guy who goes about his business and does it well while not doing all the crap that an Irvin-type does to attract attention to himself should be rewarded moreso than an Irvin-type.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think will get in this time?

Paul Tagliabue (1989-2006 National Football League Commissioner)
Derrick Thomas, LB (1989-99 Chiefs)
Thurman Thomas, RB (1988-99 Bills; 2000 Dolphins)
George Young, GM-admin. (1968-74 Colts; '75-78 Dolphins; '79-97 Giants '98-2001 NFL)

I think might get in this time?
Michael Irvin, WR (1988-99 Cowboys)
At least one of the OL (Kuchenburg, Grimm, Matthews)
Richard Dent, DE (1983-93, 95 Bears; '94 49ers; '96 Colts; '97 Eagles)

I think should but I don't expect to this time?
Ray Guy, P (1973-86 Oakland-Los Angeles Raiders)
Lester Hayes, CB (1977-86 Oakland-Los Angeles Raiders)
Art Monk, WR (1980-93 Redskins; '94 Jets; '95 Eagles)

[Swaggs]

Dermontti Dawson and Bruce Matthews are two of the best 12-15 centers in NFL history, in my opinion. I think they both deserve to make it in.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Not to take anything away from what they did on the field, but Kevin Greene's and Andre Reed's names just look out of place on that list.

[lordscarlet]

Sigh. Art Monk.

[Kodos]

I hope Terrell Davis makes it someday.

[st.cronin]

Andre Tippett!

[JeffW]

I don't think Art Monk is a travesty at all. Lackluster peak value--never the best WR in the league and his peak value is just not what you look for in a hall of famer.

I'd vote for:

Bruce Matthews
Derrick Thomas
Thurman Thomas
Dermontti Dawson

Guy who is not on the list:

Ken Anderson

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/200...analysis/4042/

[PackerFanatic]

Originally Posted by JeffW

Bruce Matthews isn't eligible yet, correct? If he was I think he'd be first ballot easy.

He should be eligible...he retired after '01 and Davis is on there (after retiring in '01)

[cartman]

Originally Posted by JeffW

Bruce Matthews isn't eligible yet, correct? If he was I think he'd be first ballot easy.

He's about halfway down the list.

[RedKingGold]

Bruce Matthews should definitely make it in on first ballot. Other than that, I think Thurman Thomas, Derrick Thomas, and Paul Tags are locks. I really like Ray Guy, but punters are like closers and its very hard for any of them to get recognition.

Also, I think people are really discounting George Young. He has a realtively good shot to get in by the veterans committee.

[korme]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Bruce Matthews should definitely make it in on first ballot. Other than that, I think Thurman Thomas, Derrick Thomas, and Paul Tags are locks. I really like Ray Guy, but punters are like closers and its very hard for any of them to get recognition.

Also, I think people are really discounting George Young. He has a realtively good shot to get in by the veterans committee.

To make matters worse, comparing punters to closers is a slight to closers, IMHO.

[terpkristin]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

And Art Monk will be unjustly denied again.

A true bummer. On a "weird" note, I discovered last week that he works out at my gym (as I saw him there).

/tk

[Jaguars]

Art Monk deserves to enter the HOF before Irvin, no doubt.

I like Tags, Dent, Thomas and Matthews.

[cartman]

What the announcement wasn't clear on was if the 3-6 to be selected were only players, or if the non-players are part of the 3-6 number selected.

[Subby]

Just perusing these guys at pro-football-reference.com and Terrell Davis' post-season stats really jumped out at me. Not saying he should make the Hall, but 1271 yards from scrimmage in 8 playoff games is sick...
Postseason data

 Year  Opp   Result  |  RSH    YD  TD  |  REC    YD  TD

---------------------+-----------------+-----------------

 1996  jax  L,27-30  |   14    91   1  |    7    24   0

 1997  jax  W,42-17  |   31   184   2  |    4    11   0

 1997  kan  W,14-10  |   25   101   2  |    1    17   0

 1997  pit  W,24-21  |   26   139   1  |    1     2   0

*1997  gnb  W,31-24  |   30   157   3  |    2     8   0

 1998  mia  W,38-3   |   21   199   2  |    1     7   0

 1998  nyj  W,23-10  |   32   167   1  |    1    12   0

*1998  atl  W,34-19  |   25   102   0  |    2    50   0

---------------------+-----------------+-----------------

TOTAL                |  204  1140  12  |   19   131   0

[vex]

Dent
Guy
Haley
Irvin
Matthews
D. Thomas
T. Thomas

[SackAttack]

Why is Tagliabue immediately eligible but players have to wait five years?

A player's contributions to the sport aren't as immediately evident as an executive's?

[rowech]

Matthews
D. Thomas
T. Thomas

[21C]

Originally Posted by JeffW

I don't think Art Monk is a travesty at all. Lackluster peak value--never the best WR in the league and his peak value is just not what you look for in a hall of famer.

I'm not convinced Monk is a Hall of Fame player but he did lead the league in receptions with 106 in 1984. This set the record at the time ( since surpassed by 22 players ) so it is noteworthy for the time.

[JeffW]

Originally Posted by 21C

I'm not convinced Monk is a Hall of Fame player but he did lead the league in receptions with 106 in 1984. This set the record at the time ( since surpassed by 22 players ) so it is noteworthy for the time.

Yeah, but he still wasn't the best WR that year. He was 4th in receiving yards.

Roy Green was probably the best in '84:

78-1555-19.9-12

I'd take that over Monk's 106-1372-12.9-7.

Admittedly, without play by play based stats like DVOA, or at least target data, we can't be sure who was best, but I am reasonably confident that Monk was never the #1 WR in the league.

[ntndeacon]

Dent
Guy
Mathews
D. Thomas

[maxwarrior]

Monk never #1 in the league? How about he held the all time NFL receiving records when he retired. How about he still has more catches than anyone in the hall already.

[Brillig]

The delay on players is because they might un-retire and come back. (See Testaverde, Vinny).

As for inductees, I'd say:

Paul Tagliabue
Derrick Thomas
Charles Haley
Bruce Matthews

[JeffW]

Originally Posted by maxwarrior

Monk never #1 in the league? How about he held the all time NFL receiving records when he retired. How about he still has more catches than anyone in the hall already.

Yeah, he still was never the best WR in any year he played. He was just a good player who stuck around for a long time--admirable but not necessarily HOF material.

[JPhillips]

It's not like he played 20 seasons. He basically played for 15 years. (His sixteenth he only caught 6 passes)

He's still 6th in receptions and I believe 11th in yardage.

[Greyroofoo]

Art Modell should burn in hell

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

I really like Ray Guy, but punters are like closers and its very hard for any of them to get recognition.

But that's exactly why Ray Guy should get in. Everybody knows Ray Guy, everybody likes Ray Guy. Name any other punter, ever, who you can say that about.

That's why he should get into the hall of fame. That, and he was one hell of an athlete.

[cartman]

Yeah, my reasoning for Ray Guy getting in goes a little like this:

Coaches prattle on and on about football being a battle of field position. Whenever the Raiders' offense couldn't move the ball, Ray Guy would punt the shit out of the ball and bail them out on field position. Someone asked John Madden what his best draft pick was, and he said immediately "Without a doubt, Ray Guy." And they used a 1st rounder on him, the only punter to ever be taken in the 1st round.

[highfiveoh]

Originally Posted by Axxon

Name any other punter, ever, who you can say that about.

Reggie Roby?

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by highfiveoh

Reggie Roby?

Second best punter absolutely but he's not in Guy's league in reputation or as an athlete IMHO.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Andre Tippett!

Seconded.

[Schmidty]

It's a travesty that Charlie Sanders isn't in the HOF.

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

To make matters worse, comparing punters to closers is a slight to closers, IMHO.

More like middle relievers or utility players.

[Grammaticus]

Oh and Fred Dean should be in too.

[Leonidas]

My picks
Richard Dent, DE (1983-93, 95 Bears; '94 49ers; '96 Colts; '97 Eagles)
Russ Grimm, G (1981-91 Washington Redskins)
Thurman Thomas, RB (1988-99 Bills; 2000 Dolphins)
Art Monk, WR (1980-93 Redskins; '94 Jets; '95 Eagles)
Bruce Matthews, G-T-C (1983-2001 Oilers-Titans)

The two veteran's picks, I put them both in.
Roger Wehrli, CB (1969-82 St. Louis Cardinals)
Bob Kuechenberg, G (1970-84 Dolphins)

The guy's who made my last cut (I think all Hall worthy, just not in my top 5 this year):
Randy Gradishar, LB (1974-83 Broncos)
Michael Irvin, WR (1988-99 Cowboys)
Derrick Thomas, LB (1989-99 Chiefs)
Andre Tippett, LB (1982-93 Patriots)

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Axxon

But that's exactly why Ray Guy should get in. Everybody knows Ray Guy, everybody likes Ray Guy. Name any other punter, ever, who you can say that about.

That's why he should get into the hall of fame. That, and he was one hell of an athlete.

I absolutely do believe that Ray Guy should get in. I also do believe that the press have a negative bias against both punters and kickers (along with special teamers).

IMO, I think it's a travesty that Steve Tasker (from Buffalo) is not on the finals list, because he may have been the best special teams player of all-time.

Hopefully, when a non-strong class of candidates come up, both Tasker and Guy will get more support. Unfortuntately, with Thurman Thomas, Derrick Thomas, Bruce Matthews, and Paul Tagliabouge up; I just don't see it happening this year.

[Swaggs]

I'm just putting this out there as a counter to the "never the best at his position" argument against Monk (who I think is well overdue and very deserving), but are Curtis Martin or Jerome Bettis undeserving, since neither of them was really considered the best in the league in any given year? What about John Riggins, who is already in the Hall of Fame? What about Warren Moon, who played in the same era as Joe Montana, Dan Marino, Brett Favre, and John Elway?

Monk won three Super Bowl rings and retired as the top pass catcher of all time. It is unfortunate that he played a number of years in common with Jerry Rice, who obliterated every WR record, and that offenses embraced the passing game much differently after the mid-90s.

[JeffW]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

I'm just putting this out there as a counter to the "never the best at his position" argument against Monk (who I think is well overdue and very deserving), but are Curtis Martin or Jerome Bettis undeserving, since neither of them was really considered the best in the league in any given year? What about John Riggins, who is already in the Hall of Fame? What about Warren Moon, who played in the same era as Joe Montana, Dan Marino, Brett Favre, and John Elway?

Not only was Art Monk never the top WR in the league in total yards, but he was rarely the best receiver on his own team! 80-81 and 84-85 were the only seasons he led his team in receiving yardage. Pretty damning.

Martin should be in. He was the best RB in the league in one season and he has the lowest fumble rate of any qualifying RB(1/138 attempts). That adds a lot of hidden value.

Bettis and Riggins would not be HOFers if it were up to me.

Moon should be in. Don't overlook his CFL numbers/lost NFL seasons. He was the best QB in the league in 1990 and TMQ ranked the 1990 season as the 5th best of all time among all QB seasons--http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=schatz/041208. He made 8 consecutive pro bowls as well. QBs get the benefit of the doubt as well because they are much much more important than RBs, WRs, etc on the whole.

One guy who should really be in HOF who isn't based on career value is QB Ken Anderson.

[perez24]

I would pick
Guy
Monk
Grimm
Thomas
Irvin
Dawson

I would love to see Stabler make it because he was my favorite QB when he played, but every time I look at his stats I become less convinced.

[maxwarrior]

Your argument about who is best receiver doesn't hold water. You quote stats yet Monk was the all time receiveing leader when he retired. Here is a small sample:

1984 Receptions
A Monk 106
O Newsome 89
J Wilder 85
J Stallworth 80
T Christensen 80
R Green 78
J Jones 77
K House 76
S Largent 74
M Clayton 73

1984 Receiving yards
R Green 1555
J Stallworth 1395
M Clayton 1389
A Monk 1372
J Lofton 1361
M Duper 1306
S Watson 1170
S Largent 1164
T Smith 1141
S Bailey 1138

1985 Receptions
R Craig 92
A Monk 91
L James 86
T Christensen 82
B Woolfolk 80
S Largent 79
M Shuler 76
J Stallworth 75
T Hill 74
M Quick 73

1985 Receiving yards
S Largent 1287
M Quick 1247
A Monk 1226
W Chandler 1199
D Hill 1169
J Lofton 1153
L Lipps 1134
C Collinsworth 1125
T Hill 1113
L James 1027

Let's remember the pass defense rule changes. Monk played mostly in a different era. The NFL is now a passing league. Plus, do you value blocking and first downs? Monk was easily the best complete receiver of his time.

Among the league's all-time top 50
Receptions: 6
Receiving yards: 11
Receiving TDs: 29t
Yards from scrimmage: 28

[maxwarrior]

Many folks also seem to think Thurman Thomas is a shoe in. Wow, he never lead the league in Rushing yeards or TD's during his career. I suppose he doesn't deserve the HOF either then. Where he did factor in was yards from scrimmage. Thomas was a great all-around back, but never the best runner. Sounds similar to Monk to me. Greatness is more than just simple numbers. Thomas was a great back and Monk a great receiver. They should have no worse than equal merit.

[oykib]

Originally Posted by maxwarrior

Monk was easily the best complete receiver of his time.

Among the league's all-time top 50
Receptions: 6
Receiving yards: 11
Receiving TDs: 29t
Yards from scrimmage: 28

That is just wrong. He wasn't close to the best reciever of his time.

This has been covered again and again on this board. But there are a fair number of guys whom we don't consider HOFers whose numbers were better than Monk's.

Rison, Reed, Clark...

All these guys had better peak value than Monk. Monk was just an average receiver for an extra five years.