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View Poll Results: How is Obama doing? (poll started 6/6) | |||
Great - above my expectations | 18 | 6.87% | |
Good - met most of my expectations | 66 | 25.19% | |
Average - so so, disappointed a little | 64 | 24.43% | |
Bad - sold us out | 101 | 38.55% | |
Trout - don't know yet | 13 | 4.96% | |
Voters: 262. You may not vote on this poll |
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Thread Tools |
09-08-2009, 02:49 PM | #4801 | |
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Naive, no. Paranoid, no. Common sense, yes.
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09-08-2009, 02:57 PM | #4802 | |
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Actually it wasn't the speech itself that was causing the uproar and fury, it was the fact that there was a lesson plan being distributed with it, and that parents were not going to be able to look at the contents of the lesson plan ahead of time. Believe it or not some of us actually care what our children are being taught in school and don't just use it as a daycare Keeping it secret gets people all worried about what's in it that they want to keep secret. They could have avoided a lot of the controversy by being more open about it in the first place. As it was one change was made after it became public, notably getting rid of the essay on how the children could help Obama. It's a lot like the Air Force One photo-op over New York where they decided not to warn folks about it. The actual activity was not all that stupid, but their secrecy and handling of it was pretty boneheaded.
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09-08-2009, 02:59 PM | #4803 |
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Did all the nation's parents get preparatory packets when Reagan spoke to schoolkids when I was a kid? Or Nancy for that matter?
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09-08-2009, 03:03 PM | #4804 | ||
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Really?? You two actually believe this?? If that's so - I've got some lovely oceanfront property in Arizona - can I interest you in it?
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09-08-2009, 03:09 PM | #4805 | |
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even more egregious because Regan was actively pushing trickle-down economics and the evils of taxes during his speech. i haven't read obama's speech contents yet, but i'm fairly certain there's nothing quite so political in it
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09-08-2009, 03:10 PM | #4806 | |
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lol all i can do is laugh. the boogeyman is around every corner hmm?
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09-08-2009, 03:11 PM | #4807 | |
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ditto. mmm...Debs!
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09-08-2009, 03:13 PM | #4808 |
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Yeah, I know, it's hard to imagine that I don't think he's actually dumb enough to follow through with an ulterior motive once he's aware he'll be caught out doing so More seriously, where do you see any disconnect with that? He's an element (not alone to be sure, and not either the leader nor the worst) of as vile a force of evil that has ever existed within this nation & a part of the greatest threat we have ever faced to our viability or worthiness as a nation. Something like a little propoganda is somehow beneath him? I most definitely think not.
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09-08-2009, 03:15 PM | #4809 |
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Hey, I actually like this one ""You compromise when the middle ground is acceptable."
It sums up my unwillingness to give the bastards an inch and ultimately to stop them by any means necessary. When the middle ground is not acceptable, compromise is no more an option than capitulation.
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09-08-2009, 03:24 PM | #4810 | |
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HEH!!!!!!!!!! I like you... You make me laugh. I am pretty sure I have never in my life written "LOL", but, this did, in fact, make me laugh out loud. Love it. Absolutely, love it.
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09-08-2009, 03:27 PM | #4811 | ||
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I'm not on the right-wing boat here saying that Obama had some sinister plan. Still, this was handled very poorly, IMO. Come out with the curriculum to the schools weeks before (with a summary of the speech). Then, after all that has been provided, you can give the above document with questions/statements like the ones above. By doing it the opposite way, the administration was giving red meat to Lions (right-wingers) and acting shocked they started to eat it. |
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09-08-2009, 03:32 PM | #4812 | |
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I'm not surprised by this. It's just sad that there are people that actually think that way just because of his politics. Hell, I live in Taxachusetts, the first state to OK gay marriage, and I don't even feel that way about Republicans.
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09-08-2009, 03:39 PM | #4813 | |
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Which I think is Obama's Jedi mind trick. He did some shady things in the way he presented this speech (I have not been following this story, so I will take your word on it) and people, rightly, questioned him on it. The media, being lazy and liking sensation, reported it as "GOP attacks Obama school speech as socialist indoctrination." And, of course, it was not. Now, can you see Obama giving a speech in 6 months about the "Party of No" and laughing as he goes through a list of GOP obstruction and says, "and you remember, I told kids to work hard and stay in school, and they said 'NO!' to that. It's crazy." Basically, I think that Obama is giving them red meat b/c he knows that, in the long run, if he can implant the meme that GOP=crazy protesters, then people will start to tune out any legitimate GOP protest. All of which is very sneaky by Obama. But that's the kind of politician he is. If Ronald Reagan was the master at Tyson-style boxing (just kicking ass and leaving you Minnesota), then Obama is like watching Judo. Hillary, McCain, Palin, now the GOP members in Congress. His mode of operation is subtly egging on his opponent while appearing to keep his hands clean and then, one day, the story is about how the opposition is losing it. He's a great politican. Such a good politician that a fair chunk of the country does not seem aware that he is a politician. |
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09-08-2009, 03:44 PM | #4814 | |
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There's zero, none, nada, zip in the speech he gave to kids today. No asking to write letters either. The only problem I had with the speech was, he could have left out the 'god bless you and god bless America' part. Oh, GHWB DID ask kids to write letters though back in '91.
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09-08-2009, 03:46 PM | #4815 | ||
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I approve. But that should be for tomorrow's speech Quote:
Well, this is why the fact that the "liberal" media label is so silly. It's not liberal at all- it's just stupid and sensationalist. SI
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09-08-2009, 04:51 PM | #4816 | |
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Careful, you have to separate the policies, the motivation for those policies, and related actions, goals, and results from something as casual a word as "politics". Otherwise though I can relate. I find it equally sad that there are people in this country who actually don't see the problems, so we're just in different boats from the same manufacturer (one may be more expansively equipped than the other however.
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09-08-2009, 05:06 PM | #4817 |
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I don't see what the big deal about the school thing was. When I was in school, we watched videos of Ronald and Nancy Reagan talking about drugs.
The areas where it seems like the biggest issue with parents are the areas that have the lowest ranked educational systems. Perhaps it's not a bad idea to send your kids to school and stop making our nation less intelligent. |
09-08-2009, 05:44 PM | #4818 | |||
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I think a lot of non-political and fairly rational people are worried about changes in education/health care. These people don't want to be insulted by the media or talked down to for being crazy by the administration/congress. The hardcore republicans are going to quibble with pretty much everything to begin with. When you start giving them actual reasons to quibble - and then act shocked and talk down to them when it happens, I think you hurt your own cause long term. The best move would have been to handle this properly and then play the "they're a bunch of nuts" card once the fringe still bitched. It would resonate a lot more. Quote:
It seems what you're saying is that Obama is OK saying he's incompetent as long as people think republicans are crazy. At that point, we're arguing who the better suitor for your daughter is - the antisocial younger person without a job or the gainfully employed older man coming off his 7th marriage. Is there even a distinction worth fighting for at that point? Last edited by Arles : 09-08-2009 at 05:52 PM. |
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09-08-2009, 05:51 PM | #4819 | |
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This is the environment of politics in this generation and either the administration deals with it or they put their hands over their ears singing "Nah Nah Nah" and acts shocked when people question things. The reality is that parents and schools had access to incomplete (and somewhat puzzling) information before this speech. The easy way to avoid this is to clearly define the purpose and content before trying to make changes. When that doesn't happen, many people (including those who don't listen to Rush Limbaugh) may be confused/worried and have concerns. There's a danger here of painting everyone with a concern on cap and trade, public health care options, school curriculums, social security or current debt levels as some right-wing nut job. Eventually, a vast majority of voters is going to be among that group and you don't want them remembering how they were called "nutjobs" for having that concern in the next election. You don't have to dignify all the concerns, but you shouldn't be putting down everyone with concerns on a daily basis as well. |
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09-08-2009, 06:04 PM | #4820 | |
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This isn't a concern about the material. If George W Bush was doing this, these same people would have no problem with it. It's just partisian hackery and people treating political parties like they treat their local sports teams. I don't care if people don't send their kids to school. Just pointing out that these "concerned parents" are also the parents of some of the dumbest kids in our country. Perhaps if they spent less time worrying about some dumb political bullshit and more about how well their kids were doing in school, they wouldn't be pulling our nation so far behind others. |
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09-08-2009, 06:31 PM | #4821 | |
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Care to look at the academic achievements the GOP voter's kids vs the Obama voter's kids in a lot of those states? Bet it won't paint a picture you'll like.
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09-08-2009, 06:31 PM | #4822 | ||
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I would say the masses that simply follow what they are told to do in the papers - without even knowing that there may be changes to their kid's lesson plan (or even caring) - are much more of a problem. I'd rather have a parent show up to a teacher/school meeting with misguided concerns than one that simply outsources parenting to Spongebob Squarepants. But, I guess as long as they vote the proper way, it's all the same to you, right? |
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09-08-2009, 06:41 PM | #4823 | ||
College Starter
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I don't think Obama, or Dems in general, get the benefit of the doubt here when they withold information due to the perception that they just "might" be leading the country into more serious troubles than we have faced in the past year. I say "might" because you have to put into context with the perception by most that our House and Senate don't actually "read" the bills in front of them(i.e. "now the Pres wants ME not to read something"...or some similar feeling). I think this is a culmination of a building sentiment by even reasonable people (caveat time...of course there are crazies in every viewpoint). If this just happened to be 2003 or 2004 and Obama happened to be President...housing market is booming, economy is growing, everything "seems" to be going well by most people's anecdotal evidence (save for some initial skepticisms with Iraq)...I think Obama doesn't get questioned on something like this. I do think this is very indicative of the fundamental disconnect ALL politicians seem to have with the general public these days (maybe they always have) where they believe the American public elected their "read between the lines" intentions rather than voting the other assholes out. Quote:
This is fine when you have very high public opinion polls and the country is doing well by most standards...but this type of gamesmanship can really backfire on him when the general public is paying more attention. The goal for him (and any Pres) is to get things moving to the point that most people stop paying attention to the issues and go back to living their lives...tough to get there with near 10% unemployment, though. |
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09-08-2009, 07:17 PM | #4824 |
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i didn't see this, but my mother said she saw something on the news about a school system in Arlington, TX where they didn't show Obama's speech because they "didn't want to take away from classtime" and yet next week they're sending 27 5th grade kids on a 2 hour bus ride to see former President Bush speak.
yeahhhhhhhhhh....hypocrisy!!
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09-08-2009, 08:41 PM | #4825 |
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This is very similar to molson's complaints about the end of life counseling in the healthcare debate. I agree that there's a legitimate concern about the materials being late and vague, so the correct response to that would be to complain that the materials are late and vague. However, instead the argument is that Obama is going to indoctrinate our kids. Now the sensible middle ground position is that Obama wasn't planning on indoctrinating our kids completely, but there was probably going to be some indoctrination, so comparing him to Mao wasn't really out of bounds and if it was it was really Obama's fault anyway..
It was all crazy. Every last bit.
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09-08-2009, 09:00 PM | #4826 | |
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Great editorial by former Reagan staffer Bruce Bartlett. Does a great job of capturing the difference between today's fiscal conservatives and old fashioned fiscal responsibility. (He does, though let Reagan off the hook for his deficits)
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09-08-2009, 09:07 PM | #4827 | |
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I hate such arguments, and I've seen Andrew Sullivan make them all the time. Mostly because the idea is that Obama is just a super sneaky Machiavellian guy who is just trying to bait the Republicans. Ie, he's just a troll. I don't believe that for a second. Mostly because its people trying to cover up for Obama doing something utterly stupid in planning, and secondly, according to the popularity ratings, it doesn't seem to be working all that well. The simplest argument is that Obama messed up, but the Republicans went over the top because they are run by the extremes. But some on the Obama side want to make him out to be a superman, which is just utterly ridiculous and where this idea of "The One" comes from.
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09-08-2009, 09:13 PM | #4828 | |
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We're not talking about "late" and "vague", we're talking about not available at all at first, and then a trickle as folks complained. And again the issue was not so much the speech as it was the "lesson plan" he wanted to provide. Sure, some folks were yelling about indoctrination, just like some folks defending him are using that minority in an effort to drown out the legitimate gripes. With the lousy record of the education establishment and the declining performance we see, you'll find more and more parents who want to know upfront what's being crammed down their kids throats. Asking me to just "trust them" is not going to fly.
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09-08-2009, 09:13 PM | #4829 | |
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Well, the latter might conceivable come up with something worth the 2 hours ride (okay, actually the trip as part of a larger event that includes a Texas Stadium tour and several former Cowboys speaking as well). The former ... not a fucking chance.
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09-08-2009, 09:17 PM | #4830 | |
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In fairness, I can't honestly lay the contents of that lesson plan as his feet directly. I'd actually be surprised if that wasn't the work of a minion far enough down the food chain that he wasn't even particularly personally aware of it until after the controversy arose. I'm not putting a political spin in the speech past him, I'm just putting something that low priority as beneath his level of active decision making.
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09-08-2009, 09:21 PM | #4831 | |
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missing the point. but i pretty much figured that'd be your response.
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Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature. Last edited by DaddyTorgo : 09-08-2009 at 09:22 PM. |
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09-08-2009, 09:22 PM | #4832 | |
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Maybe that was true at your local level, but I haven't seen one prominent voice argue anything other than this was an attempt to indoctrinate. I don't for a second believe that nationally the majority opposed weren't worried about some vague indoctrination threat. I'm not trying to drown out legitimate gripes, as I said, if there are legitimate gripes, yell about those. This isn't about anything other than a bunch of crazies who have somehow gotten to be the dominant faction of the GOP spewing whatever bullshit they think can win tomorrow's news cycle.
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09-08-2009, 09:34 PM | #4833 | |
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I hate to keep tossing all of the Libertarian's alternatives out there to every argument each side continues to make but how about this one... The NEA is such a huge determent to any kind of education reform and while the Democrats are by far the love of the NEA, the NEA doesn't seem to do too bad when the Republicans are in office either. Why not abolish federal involvement in education all together? This is what it sounds like what you might be hinting at. And believe me education won't fall apart, the Feds are responsible for about 5% of total education spending in this country. Once the NEA loses its federal stranglehold on education the states will start doing what is right and busting the unions up there. Right now they are so scared by programs like "No Child Left Behind" that they never take on the unions. By the way I am a teacher and I think I would do better in a non-socialized field. I openly fear that doctors will begin working in the type of government bureaucratic field that I work in. And while there are lots of great people in education, even some beyond inspirational, there are also a lot of duds and rotten eggs. Most teachers know who the pieces of shit are but like the police officer's blue code of silence it's career suicide to push against the NEA and the status quo too much. |
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09-08-2009, 09:37 PM | #4834 | |
Grizzled Veteran
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Quote:
I get the point you are trying to make. (Bush beating treated different in Texas than Obama) But really I think you are missing the point in your argument. Seeing a former president in person is a little different than watching a president on TV. How often do you get a chance to see the president/former president in person? How often is Obama (or in that case, any president) giving a speech about something on tv? Last edited by panerd : 09-08-2009 at 09:38 PM. |
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09-08-2009, 09:42 PM | #4835 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Fines proposed for going without insurance - Health care reform- msnbc.com
I see the idea of fines for not having insurance could on deck. |
09-08-2009, 09:42 PM | #4836 |
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
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Follow-up to previous post...
I know a lot of posters on the extreme (you know who they are) make it seem like it not only wouldn't be an honor but it would be a chore to see either Bush or Obama in person. But most of the sane parts of this country would be honored to meet both. I am not sure I agree with a lot of the politics of either of them but meeting the President of the US? You guys probably kiss ungodly amounts of ass each day just to gain favor with the president of your company's division. |
09-08-2009, 10:05 PM | #4837 |
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My kid stabbed me in the leg after watching Obama, beware! The Cringer Independent School District will never show a President on our t.v. again.
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09-08-2009, 10:06 PM | #4838 | |
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Seriously? I consider it a pretty big hassle or chore just to see half the low-end high muckity's in the world. The PITA (and often cost) involved with a Presidential meet and greet op (as opposed to actually being in a position to influence something or whatever) wouldn't even break my top thousand things to do list ... regardless of which living President you're talking about. Back in my working media days I passed up ops to meet Carter numerous times and the chance to cover a Bush I appearance up close, same as passing up chances to spend 15 seconds in the presence of several other celebrities. Just not my thing I guess.
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09-08-2009, 10:18 PM | #4839 | |
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Do I believe that it is impossible to deduce Obama's plans for the original speech from the content of the speech that he delivered? Yes, I believe that. I don't know what his original game plan was. I don't see how you or anyone else on this board can know it either, unless you have some sort of mindmeld-thing going on with the president Arles makes a brilliant point here. I voted for Obama, but he is gradually losing the independents, and the reason he is losing the independents is that Obama's most ardent supporters seem to believe that those who express apprehension or reservations about anything that the president says or does are wingnuts, and they do not hesitate to say so. Hell, they did it to Obama himself when he suggested that, back in the 1980s, Reagan's Republican Party was the party of big ideas.
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09-08-2009, 10:27 PM | #4840 | |
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i don't think you're a wingnut because you express apprehension or reservation about something that one might logically expression apprehension or reservation about (say the particulars of the healthcare reform packages or something). i think you're a wingnut because you apparently buy into the idea that this was some big conspiracy to indoctrinate children. that there was some secret speech that he was going to give that he scrapped at the last minute because glen beck and rush limbaugh sussed out his secret plan to steal all your children. that doesn't even pass the "common sense" test.
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09-09-2009, 12:31 AM | #4841 | |
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{shrug} Some things worth promoting, other things aren't. Depends on the ideology. I wouldn't expect liberals to have a problem with it as it hypothetically furthers their own goals. I really don't get a sense that anyone is particularly outraged that the left isn't bent out of shape about the prospect of propagandizing, I wouldn't expect them to be. But I am kind of bewildered at the apparent hostility toward those who are concerned about it. I mean, if it's just "oh hush, we won so deal with it" hostility, I can get that. But that's not the general vibe with this, it's more like not understanding why anyone would be concerned while the fact that you were able to link those clips says this sort of thing has a tendency to cut both ways.
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09-09-2009, 12:44 AM | #4842 | |
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wait wait...let me field this one for Jon. "Well I guess that just goes to show who's smarter." only the sad reality is that it isn't smarter to do that, it's just more intolerant and close-minded.
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09-09-2009, 12:45 AM | #4843 | |
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See? I knew conservatives were smarter than liberals
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09-09-2009, 12:46 AM | #4844 | |
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Nicely done (observers should note that he posted before I did) although you did leave off the smiley face. As for the rest, lemme see here, for some reason there's a phrase about tolerance that's on the tip of my tongue here ... I'm sure it'll come to me later.
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09-09-2009, 12:47 AM | #4845 |
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beat you to it. only it has nothing to do with smarts. just has to do with being more intolerant, more close-minded, and insecure enough in the veracity of your positions not to be willing to have questions raised about them.
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09-09-2009, 12:49 AM | #4846 | |
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Quote:
which would of course lead to my retort that your phrase about tolerance and conviction is only a shield because you're either insecure and/or unwilling to take the time and engage in the intellectual exercise of examining your beliefs more closely. at which point you come back with "after X numbers of years of my life of dealing with people..." statement, and it's status quo. i think i got everything there, right?
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09-09-2009, 12:50 AM | #4847 | |
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Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
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No, it has to do with having a low tolerance for vermin like Obama & his liberal kindred as well as the worthless tripe that spews from their mouths on a regular basis. That's not insecurity, that's having even the most basic amount of common sense & decent judgement to be able to tell useful from useless. edit to add: That time we were pretty much typing simultaneously I think. But almost seriously, at some point, how much time do you honestly expect someone to waste listening to things they've already dismissed more times than Carl Sagan could mathematically express? Were it in within my power to do so, I'd silence a great deal of it forever, to avoid both the wasted time and the sheer annoyance of it as well as to avoid poisoning weaker minds less capable of adequate discernment. Absent that, I simply do whatever microscopic thing I can to discomfit the enemy whenever possible and whenever the opportunity cost makes sense.
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"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis Last edited by JonInMiddleGA : 09-09-2009 at 12:54 AM. |
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09-09-2009, 06:25 AM | #4848 |
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Location: St. Louis
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Have to agree with MBBF. The uproar about the uproar is more amusing than anything else. I think almost every conservative leaning poster here has said they don't really have that big of a problem with Obama's speech just what the department of education may have planned to do afterwards. So the other side (in an attempt to make the conservatives look foolish) spends stupid amounts of time arguing about how those are just FOX "talking points" and to prove it they somehow all amazingly end up with the same Democratic "But Reagan and Bush Sr. did it" talking points. LOL. Great independent thought on both sides!!!
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09-09-2009, 06:29 AM | #4849 |
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Personally, I am most amused by the uproar over the uproar about the uproar.
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09-09-2009, 07:29 AM | #4850 | |
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ahhh Jon
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