Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[Matthean]

Trish looks better now than she did while wrestling.

WrestleMania 29: Trish Stratus joins HOF - Sports Fans, Teams, Stadiums, Page 2 - Fandom Blog - ESPN Playbook - ESPN

[molson]

It sounds like Bob Backlund really brought the crazy in an epic way last night. And Sammartino (who still works out 6 times a week at age 78 and looks great) got the "one more match!" and "Thank you Bruno!" chants, and the show ended with a Vince/Sammartino hug on the stage.

[General Mike]

Miz wins the IC title on the pre-show. Crowd goes mild.

[BYU 14]

Showing the 2013 HOF class, Sammartino looks amazing for 78.

[jbergey22]

Probably the outdoor stadium but the crowd seemed quiet.

Good show!

[cmp]

Such an anti-climatic ending.

[INDalltheway]

Originally Posted by cmp

Such an anti-climatic ending.

That. Everything happened as you would expect. The suprises just don't happen like they used to, and frankly, I am sick and tired of the part timers jumping the Dolph Zigglers of the world.

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by Matthean

Trish looks better now than she did while wrestling.

WrestleMania 29: Trish Stratus joins HOF - Sports Fans, Teams, Stadiums, Page 2 - Fandom Blog - ESPN Playbook - ESPN

Just looked up some pics and agree. The photo on ESPN isn't great. I think she looks better as a brunette.

[INDalltheway]

I'm pretty sure Trish is pregnant right now.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by Matthean

Trish looks better now than she did while wrestling.

WrestleMania 29: Trish Stratus joins HOF - Sports Fans, Teams, Stadiums, Page 2 - Fandom Blog - ESPN Playbook - ESPN

I met her at a Wal-Mart event last year when she was promoting her movie Bounty Hunter. She was really really nice, spent a long time chatting with me about pretty much anything. My wife seriously texted me to ask her how she got a butt like that, there's no way in hell that I was going to do that. IT'S FOR MY WIFE. REALLY.

[Mota]

I think Raw tonight is pretty important. Last night was all about keeping the status quo, hopefully tonight is about shaking things up a bit.

I really think the fans need to start chanting BORING at John Cena instead of dueling chants. Obviously the chants are not working as he is soaking it up. He or the WWE could possibly not like to hear the boring chants every time Cena is on the stage. Either that or turn your back and be quiet every time he's in the ring. But as long as you're participating in the WWE's game, you are feeding the beast.

Wrestlemania has always been like a season finale, and then the Raw was the season opener. Based on what they did last night I would compare it a lot to the Walking Dead Season 3 finale, where nothing is resolved, the status quo remains, and when the credits start rolling you're just saying REALLY???

[Maple Leafs]

"Wow I can't believe somebody just kicked out of a finisher!" - Wrestling fans, still, apparently?

[Mota]

Haha, Swagger vs. Del Rio on Raw right now. Fans are taking a CRAP on Del Rio. They're chanting USA! USA! and WE WANT ZIGGLER constantly. Talk about losing your audience.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Probably the outdoor stadium but the crowd seemed quiet.

Good show!

They were doing screwy stuff with the mics I think. Last year had a good crowd and it was outdoors. They cut the crowd mics for Cena's intro and it sounds like they kept them low during the match too. Probably didn't want the crowd reaction to show on TV the way it was at the stadium. Never seen them do it like that for a big show, but they do edit Smackdown a lot to get the crowd responses they want.

[RainMaker]

Just caught up on DVR. They couldn't have picked a better crowd/night to do it. They haven't had a reaction like that since the Money in the Bank match in Chicago.

It is kind of funny how out of touch the writers are with their audience.

[Suicane75]

It's not the writers dude, it's two people and their names are McMahon.

[RainMaker]

For those who didn't see it.

Dolph Ziggler cashes in his Money in the Bank contract to become World Heavyweight Champion: Raw, Ap - YouTube

It was the best Raw I can remember since the Attitude era. I usually just fastforward through it on DVR to see if anything big happens but tonight I watched almost the whole thing. It felt like they took a night and stopped forcing stuff. Stopped trying to get guys over that weren't and stopped trying to make heels out of guys people like.

Maybe the last minute changes meant the McMahons couldn't get their hands on things to screw it up tonight.

[SirFozzie]

The crowd was the smarkiest smarks that ever smarked a smark at Raw. They decided they were going to be the star.

[Toddzilla]

That was, from start to finish, the wildest RAW I've seen in forever, and it was 100% because of the crowd. They were nuclear last night.

If you can find it (PWTorch?) check out Cena's promo after RAW went off the air, it sums it up perfectly.

Oh, and that crowd MADE Fandango last night - simply amazing.

[Toddzilla]

Here it is...

WWE DARK MAIN EVENT 4/8/13 RAW. (JOHN CENA PROMO) - YouTube

[INDalltheway]

Best Raw I've seen since I've gotten back into wrestling about 2-3 years ago. It was definitely 90% the crowd and how the wrestlers fed off of them. I loved the whole Ziggler cashing in segment. Even had a very solid, quick match with Del Rio too. I hummed Fandango's theme all damn day at work too.

[Suicane75]

Same shit happened last year with Daniel Bryan. It's just WM weekend. Shit will go back to being shit next week.

[TLK]

Here is last nights RAW highlighted in about 12 minutes. The Fandango stuff is amazing.

WWE RAW 4/8/13 - Funniest Chants and Best Moments - YouTube

[RainMaker]

Cena was really good too last night. Played to the crowd perfectly. I guess one reason I hate his character is that he is way too talented to be stuck doing the same thing every night.

[INDalltheway]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Cena was really good too last night. Played to the crowd perfectly. I guess one reason I hate his character is that he is way too talented to be stuck doing the same thing every night.

I wish they had someone ready to step into his position as the top baby face so he could change up the character. There just isn't anyone ready imo. They've tried grooming Sheamus into that role, but it just isn't working. I did love Cena's mention of the heel turn in his opening promo.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by TLK

Here is last nights RAW highlighted in about 12 minutes. The Fandango stuff is amazing.

WWE RAW 4/8/13 - Funniest Chants and Best Moments - YouTube

Please post these weekly so I dont have to watch the show anymore

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Same shit happened last year with Daniel Bryan. It's just WM weekend. Shit will go back to being shit next week.

It's like they spend WM/the big events doing what they think the fans should want, and then they have a 2-3 week interval after each big event where they can give the fans/internet smarks what they actually want until they need to start maneuvering guys and promoting for the next big PPV.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by INDalltheway

I wish they had someone ready to step into his position as the top baby face so he could change up the character. There just isn't anyone ready imo. They've tried grooming Sheamus into that role, but it just isn't working. I did love Cena's mention of the heel turn in his opening promo.

Is he even the top babyface? I mean when over the half the crowd is booing you heavily every night and they have to turn off the crowd mic for your intro at WM, you shouldn't be considered the top babyface. He's the biggest star by far, pushes the most merchandise I'm sure, but to be a top babyface, people have to cheer for you.

That's their biggest problem when it comes to faces. They are all generic. They decide that once you are a face, you can't have a unique personality anymore. They did it to Punk who went from this anti-establishment antiher to a corny face who smiled all the time. They turned Orton into this dark guy who was a little off his rocker into something generic. And Sheamus is the poster child for generic as it stands. There is a reason the Sheamus-Orton match had no interest.

I think the best faces are the ones who have unique personalities. Guys who don't fit a mold. Rock was this arrogant guy. Stone Cold was just a badass who didn't care who was friends with who. Taker had the mysterious dark side. Michaels was the performer who gave everything in his matches.

Perfect example now is Miz. No one gives a shit about him at all. Yet they tried to force him down everyone's throat for months as a face. Had to dust off Flair and it still didn't work. They should just find talented guys, let them do their own thing more and have a personality, then let the ones that hit with the crowd stick. Instead they try and dictate who should and shouldn't be liked instead of letting the crowd do that.

[Mota]

That was a great 12 minute summary of the show!

I think we just saw what the difference is between the complete hardcore wrestling fan and the target market of 8 year old kids. The kids will cheer for who they are told to cheer for. It's like going to see Disney on Ice.

When you have this hardcore crowd, they are way harder to please. If they don't like a matchup, they will find something that will entertain them instead. But they have passion and they are loud. There were definitely some bad things coming out of it though. I'm sure Sheamus and Randy Orton weren't thrilled.

I think this is as close as you can get to the attitude era. The crowd was HOT and really wanted to get into the show. But the writers are afraid of this. These fans have higher expectations, and if you put out a product that the fans don't like, EVERYBODY will know. In a way I think they'd rather have this all go away and go back to the little kids and their John Cena merch.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Random-ish thought but ... if the heels were good enough then Cena would be over as a face by default.

[RainMaker]

The heels he's been up against haven't been that great either. Edge is the only one that really stands out.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Same shit happened last year with Daniel Bryan. It's just WM weekend. Shit will go back to being shit next week.

Welp, you were right.

[JonInMiddleGA]

from pwinsider.com

Lucha star Hector Garza, who had runs in both WCW and TNA, passed away earlier today following a battle with lung cancer. Garza would have turned 45 next month.

Garza disclosed in October 2012 that he had been diagnosed with lung cancer, immediately retiring to begin chemotherapy to combat the disease.

Rest in peace.

[Matthean]

[Mota]

I like the extra squeeze just for emphasis.

[Toddzilla]

AJ Lee is hotter than the sun

[RainMaker]

So I got some tickets to Payback through work and took my nephews last night. I haven't been following WWE much lately and hadn't been to an event since I was a little kid. Anyway, my thoughts:

- Crowd was incredible for Punk.

- I don't get why they keep pushing Ziggler as a heel. He got the 2nd biggest pop of the night and the crowd was completely behind him. Place booed Del Rio throughout the match.

- The guys in the Shield all perform well. Kind of surprised and thought they'd be much more green.

- Daniel Bryan is a ton of fun to watch and I don't know why they are trying to turn him heel either. Everyone just wants to cheer for him.

- Cena-Ryback wasn't as bad as I thought but then again my nephews love John Cena and were really happy about it.

- WWE sure puts on a hell of a show. The pyros and lighting aren't done justice on TV.

[Matthean]

Shield is made up of indie guys who have done their time there.

[INDalltheway]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

- I don't get why they keep pushing Ziggler as a heel. He got the 2nd biggest pop of the night and the crowd was completely behind him. Place booed Del Rio throughout the match.

It seems like there was a double turn in that match. Del Rio was certainly getting the heel treatment last night as well. Ziggler's affiliation with AJ makes his turn a little tougher to pull off.

[molson]

The Mark Henry fake retirement angle was pretty hilarious.

[Mota]

Definitely some good TV in the WWE recently! So many good matches from The Shield. Roman Reigns is pretty impressive for a guy I knew nothing about. Of course Seth Rollins is a great wrestler, and I think he's been doing pretty good on the personality front (which many people thought was his weakness). Dean Ambrose is a great talker and has been decent in the ring. They really work well together though.

Overall the talent coming up looks to be fantastic. Sami Zayn is really good. I'm impressed that he can talk without a thick accent (which I presumed he had since El Generico never really spoke). He has a lot of the same babyface fire that Daniel Bryan is currently showing. I think they're really impressed with Adrian Neville (Pac), he's such a fantastic athlete, probably the most athletic guy on the roster. The Wyatt Family is a great gimmick.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by INDalltheway

It seems like there was a double turn in that match. Del Rio was certainly getting the heel treatment last night as well. Ziggler's affiliation with AJ makes his turn a little tougher to pull off.

I guess I don't understand why WWE forces certain guys into roles the fans don't want. Everyone seems to love Bryan, place goes nuts for him at each match. But by the promo package they ran before the match, he looked to be turning heel. And everyone seems to want to cheer Ziggler too while wanting to boo Del Rio.

It just feels like they have such disdain for their fans. Like a "we'll put them in their place for not cheering or booing the guys we want them to". Throw out characters and base your faces/heels off of what the crowd ultimately reacts to.

[molson]

But the fans were reacting positively TO those heelish characters and tendencies. That wasn't a new shtick Bryan was using in that interview at payback, he's been doing that for a while. He's been going off the rails obsessed with the idea that he's perceived as the "weak link" of the team. A few weeks ago that resulted him going completely nuts and taking out the entire Shield by himself at the end of a Smackdown. It was epic and he had never gotten more positive reaction. Clean-cut fan-friendly polite NXT Bryan Danielson was never this over. THIS character is.

Same with Ziggler. I guess they can turn him "face", and on AJ, but I guarantee he'll be less popular in Chicago and New York when they do. But they're doing it, the double turn has happened, that was the whole point of the match you saw.

It's a tough balance. In general, the kids are going to like the babyfaces and the adults are going to like the heels. That's always been true in wrestling, heel Randy Savage got huge positive reactions in Boston and NYC in the mid-80s, because he was such a great wrestler and character. Heels in generally are going to be more developed characters (which is why maybe the best thing to have is a face that that has heelish tendencies, like Bryan, when you hit that sweet spot, everybody likes them). You shouldn't neuter every heel by turning him to a babyface, but you also need real babyfaces for the kids to get behind. Best you can do is like Mick Foley said, make it like the circus and give every type of fan at least a couple of things to really get behind.

[RainMaker]

I hadn't watched much up until the event. I was basing Bryan off the promo they ran before the show started and I believe before the match started. It made him look like a whiny dick who was turning his back on the good guys because he had an inferiority complex. Just didn't seem very "face" like.

As for the "double turn", Ziggler was being treated as the face the entire night so I don't know what or how anyone turned. I guess Del Rio gave a weird speech at the end but he was being booed at the beginning when he was considered a "face" by WWE writers. All that seemed to change is how the writers perceive him, the fans made up their minds already. Both guys got the same treatment from beginning to end.

[Suicane75]

The thing with WWE is that you have to throw logic out the window. The simple fact is that so much of it is written on the fly these days that, with some exceptions, there's both little long term continuity and an insane amount of match redundancy. The fans have loved Ziggler in the ring for a long time now. Del Rios face turn was so abrupt and so badly done that once he was out of the Swagger feud it was going to be hard to keep him a babyface. The fans just never really took to him, which I don't mind because he's a great smarmy heel.

The Shield have been having the best matches on the card most nights since their arrival, working the Bryan a lot hasn't hurt either.

[molson]

Ya, a lot of the turns have gone really badly but Daniel Bryan is on fire. Meltzer says the current plan is to have him feud with Cena after Cena's done with Henry. But he doesn't seem to know if he'll do it as a heel or a face. Either way, he'll have tons of fan support. (though I'd rather him be a face or a tweener so it doesn't feel like he's just being "fed" to Cena.) They're trying to keep Kane involved with the Shield so they can maybe do Kane/Undertaker v. The Shield at Summerslam. There is usually long term planning with at least some of the characters, but it so often blows up in their face with injuries or other issues. Undertaker could just decide he's not healthy enough for Summerslam, then you have to shoehorn the Shield into something else. (Edit: Though they do often change things too when they panic and fire a head writer and dump all of his ideas. That happened this year a couple of months before wrestlemania.)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Rest in peace Jackie Fargo, an icon of both Memphis and Chattanooga wrestling.

Legendary wrestler Jackie Fargo dead at 85 - WRCBtv.com | Chattanooga News, Weather & Sports

Memphis legend Jackie Fargo remembered for 'making wresting what - Action News 5 - Memphis, Tennessee

edit to add reax from Lawler & Jarrett

"My friend, father-figure and mentor, Jackie Fargo died this morning. He was the best!," wrote WWE announcer Jerry Lawler, who worked with Fargo in the 1970s. "Without the Fabulous Jackie Fargo, there would never have been a King Jerry Lawler. RIP Jackie."

"RIP Jackie Fargo... Huge influence on my career... Often imitated, but never duplicated," wrote TNA co-founder Jeff Jarrett, who grew up in the Memphis/Tennessee territory.

[Flasch186]

85, not bad.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

The cruel tragedy of The Iron Sheik - Yahoo! Sports

[JonInMiddleGA]

Best known for his work as the WWE clown, I still remember him more as Maniac Matt Borne.

MATT 'BORNE' OSBOURNE, THE ORIGINAL DOINK THE CLOWN, PASSES AWAY | PWInsider.com