I Have Been Saved

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I disagree with you partially. Religion assists in providing a set of morals, but it's doubtful that you would help a person on the street if it weren't for something else in your life. Your parents, maybe.

I see it in my kids and how they don't help each other. We've taught them otherwise, but they don't naturally lean towards it.

I think it's tough to use kids as an example as their brains are not fully developed. They simply don't function or think the same way an adult does.

But I don't agree with your assesment that morals can only be acquired through outside sources. Things like compassion and empathy are part of our biological makeup. We evolved as a species to have these elements in our bodies. I believe for the most part that regardless of our upbringing, we would feel sadness at a child suffering.

I believe that religion attributes to societies moral views, but isn't a necessary factor. If religion didn't exist, society would function just fine and create morals.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Can you get good morals from a religion? Yes.
Is a religion required to get good morals? No.

Clear, concise and absolutely correct.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

According to the Bible the ticket to heaven is faith in Jesus as your savior. I guess that counts as a promise (?).

But, being humans, people could have got that wrong.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I disagree with you partially. Religion assists in providing a set of morals, but it's doubtful that you would help a person on the street if it weren't for something else in your life. Your parents, maybe.

I see it in my kids and how they don't help each other. We've taught them otherwise, but they don't naturally lean towards it.

You can have values and not be religious, just like you can be religious and have no values. I don't think religion has anything to do with it.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

But, being humans, people could have got that wrong.

Well, Christians believe that the Bible is the divine word of God, so that part's not wrong (or, at least not muddied by humanity's "screwing stuff up", for lack of a better term).

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Well, Christians believe that the Bible is the divine word of God, so that part's not wrong (or, at least not muddied by humanity's "screwing stuff up", for lack of a better term).

Oh. I see. So, humans get some of this wrong, because we make errors. But there are some parts that we definitely did not get wrong. How do we know what is human error and what is divine word? There seems to be some dispute and I'm not sure what criteria is used to make that judgment.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I understand what you're saying, but, I also see it as; you don't need religion to have morals, you need some sort of guidance. The guidance for your kids, is you and your wife. Though, I wouldn't doubt that your kids think that it IS the word of god coming from you.

Can you get good morals from a religion? Yes.
Is a religion required to get good morals? No.

I agree with you completely. I was attempting to say that but as usual something got lost in the posting.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I agree with you completely. I was attempting to say that but as usual something got lost in the posting.

Gotcha. Oh how many an argument has started between my wife and I over email or an IM because we can't hear the others tone of voice or one simple word was left out.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Well, Christians believe that the Bible is the divine word of God, so that part's not wrong (or, at least not muddied by humanity's "screwing stuff up", for lack of a better term).

But you hear many (most?) Christians today who pick and choose pieces of the Bible to believe and follow.

For instance, we hear all the time about the verses in Leviticus that state:

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." (Leviticus 18:22)

"If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13)

But we don't hear so much about the ones that you musn't have sex with your wife on her period, or you will be put to death if you defy your parents, or the ones that encourage slavery, or say that you mustn't shave or eat shrimp or lobster or plant two types of crops together.

And all of these are from the same book of the bible, just a few verses apart. Why is this stuff not followed if it is the word of God?

"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

"If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." (Leviticus 20:18)

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (Leviticus 25:44-45)

"...and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you." (Leviticus 11:7)

"...do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material." (Leviticus 19:19)

"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)

It's stuff like this that makes us non-believers incredulous. Especially when the "lying with a man is an abomination" crap is trotted out there like it is some all-important tenet of the Christian faith.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I guess my confusion would be as to "what's the point?". If you aren't going to agree with what the Bible says, not going to follow it's rules, and not going to believe in what it says, why be a Christian? It just seems hypocritical to say you are a Christian but you don't agree with anything that it stands for.

My arguement to that is that every Christian picks and chooses interpretations of passages and indeed which passages to ignore totally.

This selection can be found in corporate church bodies from the Anglican view where they have openly gay priests to the catholic church where they freely pray to saints etc.

Both groups are considered 'Christians'.

Less radical to these are the various interpretations upon the passages in revelations, many churches in America seem to push the 'the time is now' message whereas back home its more seen as far off in the distance etc.

Its this schisming of Christianity into little sects each of which pretend to be friendly but actually behind each others backs they all seem to whisper along the lines of "we're the only ones who are really saved - chances are they'll burn/be left behind etc." ... its that sort of thing as much as anything which helps convince cynics that Christianity is bunk.

If Christians were generally more concerned about acting christlike (ie. loving, helpful, accepting etc.) and less obsessed with detail and obsessive analysis of obscure biblical passages then the world would be a much better place and indeed the church would be much closer to what was originally intended imho.

Everyone has a different view of the bible even if they read the same book - its a natural human thing that everyone hears it slightly differently and imho that might even be Gods intent that it gives a different message to each person (ie. I don't really get anyone pushes their interpretation or belief as being the ONLY real one - 1 + 1 = 2 but 0.5 + 1.5 = 2 also ... so long as you get the right answer thats the important thing as far as I see).

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

I am now convinced that you (just you Rainmaker, not everyone else who may agree with the jist if not the substance of your post) is simply a troll.

You keep citing things as "facts" without providing any evidence behind it. Where are these "studies?" Please find them for me and show me who did them.

I've read about these myself actually - a couple of references:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-'less-likely-to-believe-in-God'.html
Religiosity and intelligence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Incidentally (and intruigingly) the wikipedia article interestingly also mentions a study what shows while SAT results show this correlation the church attendances actually demonstrate the opposite (ie. the more intelligent people tend to attend chuch, lesser intelligent don't) ...
In the US, religious behavior also increases with education level, according to raw data from the 2004 General Social Survey, which indicates that 30.4% of those with a graduate degree attend religious services weekly or more, a statistically significant proportion, higher than any lesser educated group.[12] Further the group with the highest percentage of “never attending” was composed by those with only a high school education or less.

I'm not taking sides on this matter though and I would like to point out however that this doesn't mean everyone who doesn't believe in God is smart or that people who believe in God aren't - I'd also mention that it in no way proves or disproves the existance of God.

PS - My best friend from my high school days is also the most intelligent man I've ever known, he studied a combined Physics and Maths honours degree at Cambridge university in England, his career today - he's a Christian clergyman.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus

One of the things I've considered (going philisophical for a minute) is that our perception of a 'Good God' is wrong - for instance he could be Good, but percieving mankind as a whole rather than an individual.

This might sound strange but consider that if you pan out into the universe then you'd see just planets rather than people upon them, it could be from Gods perspective that we are as a species a person and that by some of us dying horribly the species as a whole will eventually evolve and improve.

Think of it like teaching your child to ride a push bike - they might fall off and graze their knee, but you consider the lesson worth the damage to their knee's. This doesn't make you a bad parent just because you're looking to the long term gain for the child rather than the slight injury.

(please note this is simply idle conjecture on my behalf - meant to encourage thought and debate rather than being a stance dear to my heart)

[Drake]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

My biggest problem with this philosophy is that it allows us to set the bar as low as we want. Your only job is to make sure you don't think of yourself as a dumbass? How difficult is that, and are we not more inclined to lower our standards in order for us not to feel like a dumbass?

You don't need religion in order to lead a virtuous life, but I believe you almost certainly need something more than just your own internal moral compass.

I agree with this assessment completely, just for the record, but I disagree with the assessment that what I described was solely "To thine own self be true". I thought that in the context of my self-identification as a believer, it would be clear that what I was talking about was being true to myself as I interpreted my actions and responsibilities through the lens of my Christianity.

In other words, my faith informs my moral compass, but I accept those beliefs to the point that they become my compass and (in theory, at least) what I aspire to carrying out God's will in my life, at least to the extent that I understand it.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I agree that atheists do need to get together, but, not for the reasons you mention. We need to get together to stop religion from trying to be force fed to the citizens via legislation and in our public schools.

You realize that most religious folks don't sit around consciously trying to develop an agenda to do this, right?

That's what I do with the Masons on Thursday, not with the church folk on Sunday.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by KWhit

But you hear many (most?) Christians today who pick and choose pieces of the Bible to believe and follow.

For instance, we hear all the time about the verses in Leviticus that state:




But we don't hear so much about the ones that you musn't have sex with your wife on her period, or you will be put to death if you defy your parents, or the ones that encourage slavery, or say that you mustn't shave or eat shrimp or lobster or plant two types of crops together.

And all of these are from the same book of the bible, just a few verses apart. Why is this stuff not followed if it is the word of God?



It's stuff like this that makes us non-believers incredulous. Especially when the "lying with a man is an abomination" crap is trotted out there like it is some all-important tenet of the Christian faith.

+1. If somebody can satisfactorily answer that question, I'd probably be a lot closer to being willing to consider Christianity. I grew up in a ridiculously right wing household going to church 4-5 times a week, and the hypocrisy of it all still makes me sick.

The closest I have ever come to an answer is that "the New Testament/Jesus made those passages irrevelent" I don't remember the part of the new testament where Jesus specifically rebutted those passages though. Maybe I was reading a different book.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Drake

You realize that most religious folks don't sit around consciously trying to develop an agenda to do this, right?

That's what I do with the Masons on Thursday, not with the church folk on Sunday.

Yes, I totally do realize that. It's the Illuminati that we all need to concern ourselves with in my opinion.

But, unfortunately, theres groups like the Discovery Institute, for example, with their Wedge Doctrine who have no qualms about picking up the torch of rightousness. Which you then end up with things like Dover v Kitzmiller. Or now in Louisiana (Louisiana Senate Bill 733), where they have successfully got the 'teach the controversy' garbage put in public schools down there in regards to evolution.

So, while many many church goers are not active in politics and there is no agenda of swaying legislation and enfluencing school boards, they are nevertheless, an accomplice by sitting by and doing nothing to stop it when it does happen. Prop 8, being one example, here in California.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

So, while many many church goers are not active in politics and there is no agenda of swaying legislation and enfluencing school boards, they are nevertheless, an accomplice by sitting by and doing nothing to stop it when it does happen. Prop 8, being one example, here in California.

So then you would agree that all Muslims are accomplices of terrorists and suicide bombers because they share the same religion but aren't actively doing anything to stop it?

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Drake

So then you would agree that all Muslims are accomplices of terrorists and suicide bombers because they share the same religion but aren't actively doing anything to stop it?

That argument was pretty much set forth by the GOP in recent years. They basically said that any Islamic clerics who did not denounce Osama bin Laden are tacitly in agreement with him.

[Danny]

It's also hard. When there are some vocal presences towards a particular issue, it's tough not to believe the same. True Christians love Christ and the church and want to feel like they are being good Christians. And the thought process throughout church and christian society, mostly from those vocal minority is that to be a good Christian you should be against homosexual related ideas and have certain attitudes towards it. As a Christian, I do find this unfortunate, but I have a different perspective from some since I wasn't born or raised Christian in any way or form.

In my heart I believe in God and Christ and do my best to live my life through Jesus' teaching and the overall spirit of the bible. Other Christians do too. I think sometimes they get misguided

[Danny]

Keep in mind, I am not saying I believe gay marriage is necessarily "right", but I do know that in the book of John we are told to love your brother about 10 times more than homosexuality is mentioned in the whole bible.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

That argument was pretty much set forth by the GOP in recent years. They basically said that any Islamic clerics who did not denounce Osama bin Laden are tacitly in agreement with him.

Apparently not just the GOP. I don't think JediKooter would agree with it (and I certainly don't), but I just wanted to point out that it's easy to start sliding down that slippery slope when when we want to treat any group of people as though all of its members are responsible for the actions or excesses of a few.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Drake

So then you would agree that all Muslims are accomplices of terrorists and suicide bombers because they share the same religion but aren't actively doing anything to stop it?

From my limited understanding of Islam, I'd say the muslims less so, because if they speak out, they have a realistic chance of being killed for speaking out against it and trying to stop it. More so in the middle east than here. Where as a christian here in the US, it is not a matter of life or death if they speak out.

Islam is whole 'nother ball of wax though, in my opinion, and I would be bitching just as much (probably more) as I am now if muslims were trying to get shira laws legislated or put into public schools.

Don't get me wrong, there are muslims and christians that do speak out, but, their voices are so few, they get lost in the static of the squeaky wheels.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

From my limited understanding of Islam, I'd say the muslims less so, because if they speak out, they have a realistic chance of being killed for speaking out against it and trying to stop it. More so in the middle east than here. Where as a christian here in the US, it is not a matter of life or death if they speak out.

But see it kind of is. Not actual life or death, but spiritual life or death. If through the conditioning of society and the church from a young age it is taught that to be a good Christian and show your love for Christ you should not support certain issues, people can feel like they are losing their spiritual life if they go against that.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by KWhit

But you hear many (most?) Christians today who pick and choose pieces of the Bible to believe and follow.

Again, I think most "Christians" who pick and choose pieces from the Bible to believe and follow are those who have an agenda. That should not be a strike against religion itself, but on the individual.

For instance, we hear all the time about the verses in Leviticus that state:

But we don't hear so much about the ones that you musn't have sex with your wife on her period, or you will be put to death if you defy your parents, or the ones that encourage slavery, or say that you mustn't shave or eat shrimp or lobster or plant two types of crops together.

And all of these are from the same book of the bible, just a few verses apart. Why is this stuff not followed if it is the word of God?

Much like how agnostics/athiests cannot agree; Christians cannot agree on the exact meaning of these passages.

Based on my knowledge from theology classes and my own personal beliefs, here is the best way I can explain these types of verses:

People have difficulty believe in a God because that God must be "perfect" and how would that be possible in this imperfect world?

However, what if perfect does not necessarily mean "good"? What if it means "balance"? Balance requires a comparison, between good and evil, light and dark, etc. In order to truly appreciate the "good" of Earth, humanism, afterlife, etc., we need to know of both worlds.

It's interesting the difference in tone and message between the Old Testament and New Testament, and could feed into this "balance" idea.

Similarly, there are various references to homosexuality and cursing your parents as being regarded as a "sin". In case you hadn't noticed, there are many sins forbidden in the Bible, those which Christians and non-Christians commit each and every single day.

Why is this? Because to sin is but human nature. We were created to sin and to see the suffering from sin so we can understand the wonder and beauty of everything else in this world and beyond.

This is what people have a hard time with. How can the sin of murder possibly be equal to "fuck my mother"? It's kinda like rain. Whether it's a few rain-drops or a thunderstorm, both can get you wet.

So, what do we do with verses like these cited. In short, we try our best. We try our best to be good humans and do the right thing with the understanding that there is no merit-based system to get into heaven.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Again, I think most "Christians" who pick and choose pieces from the Bible to believe and follow are those who have an agenda. That should not be a strike against religion itself, but on the individual.



Much like how agnostics/athiests cannot agree; Christians cannot agree on the exact meaning of these passages.

Based on my knowledge from theology classes and my own personal beliefs, here is the best way I can explain these types of verses:

People have difficulty believe in a God because that God must be "perfect" and how would that be possible in this imperfect world?

However, what if perfect does not necessarily mean "good"? What if it means "balance"? Balance requires a comparison, between good and evil, light and dark, etc. In order to truly appreciate the "good" of Earth, humanism, afterlife, etc., we need to know of both worlds.

It's interesting the difference in tone and message between the Old Testament and New Testament, and could feed into this "balance" idea.

Similarly, there are various references to homosexuality and cursing your parents as being regarded as a "sin". In case you hadn't noticed, there are many sins forbidden in the Bible, those which Christians and non-Christians commit each and every single day.

Why is this? Because to sin is but human nature. We were created to sin and to see the suffering from sin so we can understand the wonder and beauty of everything else in this world and beyond.

This is what people have a hard time with. How can the sin of murder possibly be equal to "fuck my mother"? It's kinda like rain. Whether it's a few rain-drops or a thunderstorm, both can get you wet.

So, what do we do with verses like these cited. In short, we try our best. We try our best to be good humans and do the right thing with the understanding that there is no merit-based system to get into heaven.

Well said.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Danny

But see it kind of is. Not actual life or death, but spiritual life or death. If through the conditioning of society and the church from a young age it is taught that to be a good Christian and show your love for Christ you should not support certain issues, people can feel like they are losing their spiritual life if they go against that.

I'm sorry but, spiritual life or death is not on the same playing field as actual physical life or death, but, I do understand what you mean, just don't feel the same way.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I'm sorry but, spiritual life or death is not on the same playing field as actual physical life or death, but, I do understand what you mean, just don't feel the same way.

For you maybe not, for others it is far worse.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Again, I think most "Christians" who pick and choose pieces from the Bible to believe and follow are those who have an agenda. That should not be a strike against religion itself, but on the individual.



Much like how agnostics/athiests cannot agree; Christians cannot agree on the exact meaning of these passages.

Based on my knowledge from theology classes and my own personal beliefs, here is the best way I can explain these types of verses:

People have difficulty believe in a God because that God must be "perfect" and how would that be possible in this imperfect world?

However, what if perfect does not necessarily mean "good"? What if it means "balance"? Balance requires a comparison, between good and evil, light and dark, etc. In order to truly appreciate the "good" of Earth, humanism, afterlife, etc., we need to know of both worlds.

It's interesting the difference in tone and message between the Old Testament and New Testament, and could feed into this "balance" idea.

Similarly, there are various references to homosexuality and cursing your parents as being regarded as a "sin". In case you hadn't noticed, there are many sins forbidden in the Bible, those which Christians and non-Christians commit each and every single day.

Why is this? Because to sin is but human nature. We were created to sin and to see the suffering from sin so we can understand the wonder and beauty of everything else in this world and beyond.

This is what people have a hard time with. How can the sin of murder possibly be equal to "fuck my mother"? It's kinda like rain. Whether it's a few rain-drops or a thunderstorm, both can get you wet.

So, what do we do with verses like these cited. In short, we try our best. We try our best to be good humans and do the right thing with the understanding that there is no merit-based system to get into heaven.

This is what makes me question how much someone may actually believe in their religion. I have no doubt that people think they believe in it, but subconsciously do they?

As you mentioned, Christians sin all the time. Whether it be swearing, working on the Sabbath, or having premaritial sex. In fact, we don't give many of these "sins" a second thought. I'd imagine the average Christian doesn't keep track of all the times he sins in a day.

So if you truly believed in God, truly believe your eternal destiny is based on your actions in this life, you would have to be mentally insane to commit those sins. Why would anyone ever risk their eternal happiness for something as mundane as using a curse word? I guess what I'm saying is that if I was given a ticket to heaven along with a set of rules I had to obey, there is no way in hell I would break those rules.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Danny

For you maybe not, for others it is far worse.

I totally understand. I think it's sad, but I do understand.

[Danny]

For Christians eternal destiny is not based on the actions we take. It's actually the opposite. For Christians our eternal destiny is based upon the belief in Christ and the grace of God.

[SFL Cat]

Late to the party, but congrats tarcone. You've found the way.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I totally understand. I think it's sad, but I do understand.

For me, I try and live this life the best I can in the way I believe is right. I don't really think or worry too much about an eternal life as that will take care of itself when it happens. I am here now. I do think some (like suicide bombers and some Christians) get far too caught up in eternal life.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Danny

For Christians eternal destiny is not based on the actions we take. It's actually the opposite. For Christians our eternal destiny is based upon the belief in Christ and the grace of God.

So sinning doesn't matter as long as you believe in Christ and the grace of God? So as long as murderers and rapists have it, they are going to have a great afterlife.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So sinning doesn't matter as long as you believe in Christ and the grace of God? So as long as murderers and rapists have it, they are going to have a great afterlife.

See, the thing is with the true love and presence of Christ and God, an individual would not commit those acts.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Danny

See, the thing is with the true love and presence of Christ and God, an individual would not commit those acts.

But RedKingGold just said Christians sin all the time. Are you saying that with true love and presence of Christ and God you will not sin?

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So sinning doesn't matter as long as you believe in Christ and the grace of God? So as long as murderers and rapists have it, they are going to have a great afterlife.

We are saved by grace through faith...but faith without works is dead.

[Danny]

Keep in mind, I'm not saying individuals who are socialized into Christianity alone or may call themselves Christian necessarily have that love. It's also possible for someone to lose it and gain it back, so I do believe in spiritual redemption. If someone commits those acts, they should be punished in this life whether they are spiritually redeemed or not. But spiritually, I think redemption is possible.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

But RedKingGold just said Christians sin all the time. Are you saying that with true love and presence of Christ and God you will not sin?

No, of course not. Sometimes things get overlooked, but it's not the intention to sin. Murder/Rape for a Christian takes a conscience intention to sin, a conscience opposition to Christianity and the grace of god.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Danny

See, the thing is with the true love and presence of Christ and God, an individual would not commit those acts.

A man could sin in all kinds of horrible ways before THEN seeing the light, and accepting the "presence of Christ and God", and get in to heaven.

Unless he commited blaspheme, which is the one sin out of all of them that won't be forgiven.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Danny

No, of course not. Sometimes things get overlooked, but it's not the intention to sin. Murder/Rape for a Christian takes a conscience intention to sin, a conscience opposition to Christianity and the grace of god.

Doesn't everything take a conscience intention to sin? If you know that working on the sabbath is a sin, yet you do it, are you not just as guilty of taking an opposition to Christianity and the grace of God?

It just seems by what you're saying that if you know something is a sin, yet you do it, you are not really a Christian at heart. That is fine with me, but it goes against the beliefs of some that even Christians sin. Just seems like an impossible paradox.

[Danny]

Yeah and I believe that. The fact is, if born into the right circumstances we're all capable of doing those terrible things.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Doesn't everything take a conscience intention to sin? If you know that working on the sabbath is a sin, yet you do it, are you not just as guilty of taking an opposition to Christianity and the grace of God?

It just seems by what you're saying that if you know something is a sin, yet you do it, you are not really a Christian at heart. That is fine with me, but it goes against the beliefs of some that even Christians sin. Just seems like an impossible paradox.

Hmm, in that moment I would agree with you. I think you can be a good Christian, but have moments where you block out the love of Christ perhaps unintentionally.

[Danny]

But it doesn't always take conscience intention to sin. If I have been brought up that cursing is alright and do so before I find Christ, it might be a battle to stop doing that as it might happen sometimes without even thinking about it.

And regarding the sabbath, Jesus taught against that in the New Testament which for Christians outrules the old testament

[astrosfan64]

It always amazes me when people who I consider to be smart and logical, show a complete lack of any common sense when it comes to religion.

Oh well, what are you going to do? On your quest to find Christ, did you guys happen to run into Gandalf and Frodo?

[Tekneek]

I am a little surprised that the creator of life, the universe, and everything would leave all of this up to the interpretation of humans. How can each group be so sure they've got it right? They cannot all be correct, given that there can be contradictions between them. If this creator cannot be bothered to set the record straight, why would they bother creating heaven? Because, despite all the planets, stars, and galaxies out there, we are the lone entities that this creator truly loves, yet keeps us in the dark about all the details? It just doesn't add up for me.

[Danny]

Plus it's still a struggle. It's in our nature that we sin, so a Christian still struggles to not sin, but of course will still do so. And frankly sometimes it's really hard to uphold all actions that are ideal to Christians. For example, honor thy mother and father is a commandment, but what if to do so you need to commit a sin? This is why I believe in following the overall message of the bible, and picking and choosing individual passages is for someone to try and support their own bias.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I am a little surprised that the creator of life, the universe, and everything would leave all of this up to the interpretation of humans. How can each group be so sure they've got it right? They cannot all be correct, given that there can be contradictions between them. If this creator cannot be bothered to set the record straight, why would they bother creating heaven? Because, despite all the planets, stars, and galaxies out there, we are the lone entities that this creator truly loves, yet keeps us in the dark about all the details? It just doesn't add up for me.

What's the point of life if God appeared in the sky and told us everything? There needs to be choices, doubt, faith.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Danny

For me, I try and live this life the best I can in the way I believe is right. I don't really think or worry too much about an eternal life as that will take care of itself when it happens. I am here now. I do think some (like suicide bombers and some Christians) get far too caught up in eternal life.

I think many atheists feel the same way about living their lives as best as they can. I know I do try. I have my jerk moments though, just like everyone else.

Yes, I agree that there are some that do get far too caught up in eternal life.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So sinning doesn't matter as long as you believe in Christ and the grace of God? So as long as murderers and rapists have it, they are going to have a great afterlife.

If you read my posts earlier, there is a difference between publicly professing your love for God and truly loving god (i.e. the difference between saying your sorry and really meaning it). I personally believe there is some sort of atonement, but it is not I to say who or what that is.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

This is what makes me question how much someone may actually believe in their religion. I have no doubt that people think they believe in it, but subconsciously do they?

As you mentioned, Christians sin all the time. Whether it be swearing, working on the Sabbath, or having premaritial sex. In fact, we don't give many of these "sins" a second thought. I'd imagine the average Christian doesn't keep track of all the times he sins in a day.

So if you truly believed in God, truly believe your eternal destiny is based on your actions in this life, you would have to be mentally insane to commit those sins. Why would anyone ever risk their eternal happiness for something as mundane as using a curse word? I guess what I'm saying is that if I was given a ticket to heaven along with a set of rules I had to obey, there is no way in hell I would break those rules.

As said above, eternal destiny is not based on "actions in this life." In fact, that's the "opposite" that most Christians believe. Humans are simply prone to sin, nothing more nothing less. We try our best, but we inevitably fall short on our own.

I think you are implying there is black/white decision between "free license to do whatever the hell we want" and "trying to do absolutely nothing because we fear sinning."

In line with my balance argument above, can't is simply be both? Murderer's don't murder every day and I'm sure Mother Theresa had a choice word or two for God/Christ every now and again.

The Bible itself is litered with examples that people point to as "contradictions." In Genesis, we see God telling Abraham to sacrifice his own son. Yet, in other passages have Jesus being compassionate to those who many would consider, well, bad people. So which one is true? Why can't they both?

Perhaps the Bible is written the way it is because human beings are all individuals and all different. Tarcone, for example, needed to find his own path. This is why he called it "finding" Jesus or religion. Perhaps some people who make wrong choices need different forms of Scripture to reach them. While "fear" is considered to be a negative emotion, does it not also have positive effects? Perhaps this is God knowing us more than we really think.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

But RedKingGold just said Christians sin all the time. Are you saying that with true love and presence of Christ and God you will not sin?

Here's what I think is really going on here, and in this thread. There is a stereotype of Christians that we all hang around gay bars with signs pointing to individual choices leading to a path of everlasting destruction.

I would argue that, like most stereotypes, that is an inaccurate description of most in the Christian faith. It is no less incorrect as "all blacks are great at sports", or "all Muslims are terrorists".

Most Christians (at least those that I know), are generally good people at heart. They make mistakes, perhaps don't go to church all the time, perhaps good make better life-choices. However, using Christianity as a backbone, they try to do their best to make sense out of a world that, at times makes little sense at all.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Danny

What's the point of life if God appeared in the sky and told us everything? There needs to be choices, doubt, faith.

Tell that to all the suckers who were born long before Christianity ever reached their shores (or after their own religion had long been established), and are now all burning in eternal hellfire because God relied on some desert herdsmen in an obscure part of the world to spread His word around the globe. Very. Very. Slowly.