POL - Is attacking Iran in our best interests?

[CamEdwards]

I didn't realize Mr. Bigglesworth was French.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/2006041...25_2006104_xml

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Sidenote: It's funny, the US has probably contributed to Iran's ramping up of theur nuclear program more than anyone. Branding them as an 'evil' nation, invading one of the 'evil' nations (that just happens to be next door), and then we spread ourselves so thin that we couldn't do much, even if we wanted to.

I wonder if this would've played out different if we didn't invade and occupy Iraq?

hxxp://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060414/wl_afp/irannuclearpolitics_060414191647;_ylt=ApLGC_UDtrEQb6_TwnBxyldSw60A;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Just a thought.

I also wonder if the Bulls would have won so many championships had Sam Bowie not been picked before Michael Jordan.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I'm sure what you are getting at here. I don't deny there aren't Al Qaeda/Iran connections. In fact, before the Iraq war, I argued that the Al Qaeda/Iran connections were infinitely more significant than the Iraq/Al Qaeda connections. My only point was about Iran acting as a state to nuke Israel, not that they don't have a lot in common with Al Qaeda.

I wasn't arguing for al-Qaeda-Iran connections there (although they are numerous.) I was pointing out that the Iranian state itself has committed terrorist acts in the past and has shown that it doesn't respect other states territory.

Do I want Iran to have nuclear weapons? Probably not (I only say probably because I'm fairly persauded by the work of Kenneth Waltz and others that acquisition of nuclear weapons actually causes countries to moderate and be less likely to pursue conventional warfare).

I'll repeat what I said earlier on this - while both countries acquiring nukes tends to give the appearance of calm it really just leads to a longer more diffuse war where both sides support paramilitary groups. All the "hot spots" during the US/USSR Cold War, India/Pakistan in Kashmir - just because conventional warfare is now out of the question doesn't mean the two sides stop fighting. And Iran has already shown its willing to fight wars like this through the Pasdaran and organizations like Hezballah.

However, I do not believe they will use OPEC to "hold the world hostage." There economic self-interest makes that a virtual impossibility. They can certainly cause economic hurt, but "hold the world hostage" seems a bit overstated to me.

You want to talk about Iran's economic self-interest? Look south-west. Who is going to step up and stop a nuclear-armed Iran from invading Saudi Arabia and the gulf states? Would the US really step up if it meant nuclear retaliation into Israel and US targets, either the army or the homeland? Shucks, if you want to bring realism into this, isn't invading a powerless resource-rich neighbor what makes sense for Iran to do? Even if you don't believe they would go that far, they could shut down the Straits of Hormuz real easily with nuclear weapons to deter the United States from stepping in.

[Dutch]

Sidenote: It's funny, the US has probably contributed to Iran's ramping up of theur nuclear program more than anyone. Branding them as an 'evil' nation, invading one of the 'evil' nations (that just happens to be next door), and then we spread ourselves so thin that we couldn't do much, even if we wanted to.

If that one line committed Iran to a path towards building nuclear weapons, I wonder what it would take to destabilize them enough to use them?

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

I didn't realize Mr. Bigglesworth was French.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/2006041...25_2006104_xml

What?

[WVUFAN]

When it comes to Israel and the Arabs, and the US's involvement, I found this list of deaths from Arab terrorists attacks after they signed an accord in 1993.

hxxp://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/victims.html#Sep

I look at this list and wonder what we would do as a country if this was happening here. Would we react the was Israel had done? Would the same people decrying the treatment of Arabs still be doing it? What would we do to stop this from happening if it happened that often here?

I can't imagine being an Israeli and the fear one might feel just going to the market, or the fear a parent might feel taking his or her child to school.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Dutch

If that one line committed Iran to a path towards building nuclear weapons, I wonder what it would take to destabilize them enough to use them?

Another Dutch strawman. rex says that we:

1) Called Iran part of an Axis of Evil

2) Invaded another part of the Axis of Evil (implying that Iran saw that they too could be invaded based upon their inclusion in the group referenced in (1)

3) Spread ourselves thin by our invasion in (2), allowing us to be in a weaker negotiating position

And yet all you reference is the first part. ALL of those things led to the Iranians upping their nuke program, not just the 'one line'. But then again, "If all we have to do is announce regime change as our foriegn policy, invade their next door neighbor in a war of aggression, and leave ourselves relatively defenseless to provoke a nuclear research program, who knows what it will take to REALLY set them off" doesn't roll off the tongue.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

When it comes to Israel and the Arabs, and the US's involvement, I found this list of deaths from Arab terrorists attacks after they signed an accord in 1993.

hxxp://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/victims.html#Sep

I look at this list and wonder what we would do as a country if this was happening here. Would we react the was Israel had done? Would the same people decrying the treatment of Arabs still be doing it? What would we do to stop this from happening if it happened that often here?

I can't imagine being an Israeli and the fear one might feel just going to the market, or the fear a parent might feel taking his or her child to school.

That's all well and good, but in an average year, Israel kills 2-3 times more Palestinians than the Palestinians kill Israelis. Imagine the fear Palestinians feel taking children to market... Have a look for yourself:

Report 2005
Report 2004
Report 2003
Report 2002


Using tanks, artillery, and helicopters doesn't magically make it better than suicide bombers...

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by -Mojo Jojo-

That's all well and good, but in an average year, Israel kills 2-3 times more Palestinians than the Palestinians kill Israelis. Imagine the fear Palestinians feel taking children to market... Have a look for yourself:

Report 2005
Report 2004
Report 2003
Report 2002

That's pretty bad stuff, I'll admit. But I wonder how much of this is a response to innocent Israelis dying? Doesn't make it right, I understand that, but there's an automatic response in many people for revenge against the people that have harmed one of your own.

It's very hard to feel empathy for a group of people who continue to say, through word and deed, that they want an entire group of people to die. Granted, children are innocent in this, but I think perhaps if the Arabs would simply leave the Israelies alone and allow them to live in peace, all of this would never have occured. They don't want Jewish residents to live near them, have started several wars against Israel, and expect the government not to react.

I say again, if this would have happened in the US, how would we react? If there was a group that made it their duty to try and kill every single Christian just because they're Christian, then tries to create terror whenever possible, would we respond differently than the Israeli's do?

I'm certainly not justifying children dying, but would American's react any better? How would you react if you were an Israeli?

[st.cronin]

The difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians is: When an Israeli child is murdered by a Palistinian, the Palestinians celebrate the event. Whan a Palestinian child is murdered by an Israeli, the Israelis regret the event.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

The difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians is: When an Israeli child is murdered by a Palistinian, the Palestinians celebrate the event. Whan a Palestinian child is murdered by an Israeli, the Israelis regret the event.

And yet they kill them in much larger numbers... you'd think if they really felt bad about it they could change their military procedure or training or impose serious consequences or do something that could have an impact. You can talk a good game all you want, but results count, and the results are that Israelis kill more Palestinian children than the reverse. In 2005, Israel killed more Palestinian children than Palestinians killed Israelis in total (men, women, children, soldiers and civilians). That doesn't strike me as the conduct of a remorseful people.. Vengeful maybe..

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by -Mojo Jojo-

And yet they kill them in much larger numbers... you'd think if they really felt bad about it they could change their military procedure or training or impose serious consequences or do something that could have an impact. You can talk a good game all you want, but results count, and the results are that Israelis kill more Palestinian children than the reverse. In 2005, Israel killed more Palestinian children than Palestinians killed Israelis in total (men, women, children, soldiers and civilians). That doesn't strike me as the conduct of a remorseful people.. Vengeful maybe..

One problem is that so many people see this and agree. The terrorists understand this. They build their bombs in homes, making sure there are plenty of women and children around. They always travel with children. After they fire their rockets into Israel, they hide behind women and children or they hide in the mosques.

To them, their own families are expendible. The highest honor these nutballs achieve is to have their own children die as "martyrs." It's absurd, but that's their culture, and they are keenly aware of how the media around the world condemns the strike itself instead of the fact that these people instigate violence, then sacrifice their own children.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

That's pretty bad stuff, I'll admit. But I wonder how much of this is a response to innocent Israelis dying? Doesn't make it right, I understand that, but there's an automatic response in many people for revenge against the people that have harmed one of your own.

It's very hard to feel empathy for a group of people who continue to say, through word and deed, that they want an entire group of people to die. Granted, children are innocent in this, but I think perhaps if the Arabs would simply leave the Israelies alone and allow them to live in peace, all of this would never have occured. They don't want Jewish residents to live near them, have started several wars against Israel, and expect the government not to react.

I say again, if this would have happened in the US, how would we react? If there was a group that made it their duty to try and kill every single Christian just because they're Christian, then tries to create terror whenever possible, would we respond differently than the Israeli's do?

I'm certainly not justifying children dying, but would American's react any better? How would you react if you were an Israeli?

I think it is important to note that there are not so many anti-Isreal people as their are nuetral people who don't particularly like either side in the conflict. Yes, I understand why Isreal reacts the way they do. I also understand why the Palestinians act the way they do with guerrilla tactics: they can't compete on conventional terms.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

One problem is that so many people see this and agree. The terrorists understand this. They build their bombs in homes, making sure there are plenty of women and children around. They always travel with children. After they fire their rockets into Israel, they hide behind women and children or they hide in the mosques.

To them, their own families are expendible. The highest honor these nutballs achieve is to have their own children die as "martyrs." It's absurd, but that's their culture, and they are keenly aware of how the media around the world condemns the strike itself instead of the fact that these people instigate violence, then sacrifice their own children.

Jim, getting a little back on topic, you mentioned before that Iran should be kept from getting nukes 'by any possible means' or something like that. I'm interested how far, in your opinion, is possible. Just air strikes? A ground invasion? An invasion with occupation? Strategic nukes? Nuking the entire country?

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Jim, getting a little back on topic, you mentioned before that Iran should be kept from getting nukes 'by any possible means' or something like that. I'm interested how far, in your opinion, is possible. Just air strikes? A ground invasion? An invasion with occupation? Strategic nukes? Nuking the entire country?

No, that's not what I said. You can go back and read what I wrote just as easily as I can repeat it.

Meanwhile, can I ask if you've read the Hamas Charter? What do you think of it? What do you think of the recent statements of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad regarding the destruction of Israel?

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by -Mojo Jojo-

And yet they kill them in much larger numbers... you'd think if they really felt bad about it they could change their military procedure or training or impose serious consequences or do something that could have an impact. You can talk a good game all you want, but results count, and the results are that Israelis kill more Palestinian children than the reverse. In 2005, Israel killed more Palestinian children than Palestinians killed Israelis in total (men, women, children, soldiers and civilians). That doesn't strike me as the conduct of a remorseful people.. Vengeful maybe..

What about Mogadishu? We lost like 18 soliders and killed over 1000 people during that whole black hawk down fiasco alone...so we aren't remorseful over that?

[Dutch]

Another Dutch strawman. rex says that we:

1) Called Iran part of an Axis of Evil

2) Invaded another part of the Axis of Evil (implying that Iran saw that they too could be invaded based upon their inclusion in the group referenced in (1)

3) Spread ourselves thin by our invasion in (2), allowing us to be in a weaker negotiating position

I still don't quite understand how strawmen work, but let me give it the Mr Bigglesworth college try.

1.) Iraq did nothing wrong.
2.) Bush called them "evil".
3.) Bush invades all countries he calls evil that did nothing wrong.
4.) Bush will invade Iran by June of '07.

Awww, shucks, that's not a strawman, that's just typical Mr Bigglesworth bullshit. Mix your bullshit with my straw and we might have some mortar, but I admit, it would still smell like shit.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

One problem is that so many people see this and agree. The terrorists understand this. They build their bombs in homes, making sure there are plenty of women and children around. They always travel with children. After they fire their rockets into Israel, they hide behind women and children or they hide in the mosques.

You're in denial. Read some of the reports:

Four Palestinian schoolgirls were shot dead by the Israeli army in their classrooms or walking to school in the Gaza Strip in September and October. Raghda Adnan al-Assar and Ghadeer Jaber Mukhaymar, aged 10 and nine, were shot dead by Israeli soldiers while sitting at their desks in UN schools in Khan Yunis refugee camp. Eight-year-old Rania Iyad Aram was shot dead by Israeli soldiers as she was walking to school. On 5 October Israeli soldiers shot dead 13-year-old Iman al-Hams near her school in Rafah. According to an army communication recording of the incident and testimonies of soldiers, a commander repeatedly shot the child at close range even though soldiers had identified her as “a little girl... scared to death”. The commander was charged with illegal use of his weapon, obstructing justice, improper use of authority and unbecoming conduct. He was not charged with murder or manslaughter.

Ten-year-old Walid Naji Abu Qamar, 11-year-old Mubarak Salim al-Hashash, 13-year-old Mahmoud Tariq Mansour and five others were killed on 19 May in Rafah in the Gaza Strip when the Israeli army opened fire with tank shells and a helicopter-launched missile on a non-violent demonstration. Dozens of other unarmed demonstrators were also wounded in the attack.

In April, Israeli soldiers used 13-year-old Muhammed Badwan as a “human shield” during a demonstration in the West Bank village of Biddu. The soldiers placed the boy on the hood of their jeep and tied him to the front windscreen to discourage Palestinian demonstrators from throwing stones in their direction.

In March ISM activist Rachel Corrie, a US national, was crushed to death by an Israeli army bulldozer in Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip. In April ISM activists Tom Hurndall, a United Kingdom (UK) national, and Brian Avery, a US national, were both shot in the head by Israeli soldiers in Rafah and Jenin respectively. Both were gravely injured. In May UK journalist James Miller was shot in the neck and killed by Israeli soldiers in Rafah.

Ahmad Ghazawi, aged six, and his 12-year-old brother Jamil were killed on 21 June by a tank shell fired by the IDF in a residential area on the edge of Jenin city. Their 11-year-old brother Tareq and a neighbour, Samer al-Ahmad, were seriously wounded in the same incident, which was caught on video by a neighbour.

Baha al-Bahesh, aged 13, was killed by a single bullet fired from an IDF armoured personnel carrier on 22 September in Nablus while standing with four international aid workers from the International Solidarity Movement.

Nine-year-old Shaima’ ‘Abu Shammala was killed on 17 October in her home in front of her parents and siblings by a shell fired by the IDF into a densely populated refugee camp in Rafah, in the Gaza Strip. In the same incident five other residents were killed, including a 15-year-old boy and a 70-year-old woman.

ain Hook, a United Kingdom national working with the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), was shot by IDF troops while inside the UNRWA compound in Jenin refugee camp on 22 November. The ambulance was delayed by the IDF and he died shortly afterwards. On the same day Cahoime Butterly, an Irish aid worker, was injured by a shot fired by an IDF armoured personnel carrier inside Jenin refugee camp.

Nivin Jamjun, aged 14, was shot dead on 28 June in Hebron by Israeli settlers who destroyed and vandalized Palestinian houses and property.

Fatima Abu Jish was killed in January as she was returning to her village of Beit Dajan from the hospital in Nablus where she worked as a receptionist. The IDF fired at her car which was in a queue of cars slowly travelling along a track through the fields because an IDF barrier had blocked the road to the village. The IDF first stated that soldiers had been firing in response to shots. It then admitted that no shots had been fired at the checkpoint. The IDF then claimed that a soldier had fired at the wheels of Fatima Abu Jish's car and that disciplinary procedures would be taken against him. No reason was given why one car in a convoy should have been targeted.

Two Bedouin women and a child were killed in June in the Gaza Strip when an Israeli tank shelled their tent with a 120mm shell filled with up to 2,000 flechettes. Three other artillery shells exploded in the same area, wounding other Bedouin and killing sheep. The IDF initially said it was responding to gunfire, but later said that the killings had been a ''mistake''.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Follow-up, these are all several years old, I was tracking BBC links for a while just because I find it stunning how one-sided some people's views of this conflict are. Anyway, it looks like the links still work:

12 year-old shot, apparently without provocation

Hamas member, 14 civilians killed in assassination (8 children), 140 wounded

5 policemen, unassociated with terror groups, assassinated due to IDF's "bad information", also 14 year-old shot dead for throwing stones

Woman carrying baby shot and killed

Tank fires into market, unprovoked, kills 3

Woman, 3 children shredded by unprovoked tank round

13 year-old boy, pregnant woman shot at demonstrations

4 month old girl killed in shelling of Gaza town

19 year-old used by IDF as human shield, shot in head

5 dead, 2 children in assassination

6 dead, 3 children in botched assassination

doctor killed when ambulance shelled due to ambulance moving too quickly

This is a conflict where both sides violate the Geneva Convention and every other accepted standard of human rights with sickening regularity and casualness. The best that can be said of the IDF is that their intent typically lies somewhere more along the lines of reckless indifference to the loss of human life rather than willfulness.

[DanGarion]

This is all I have to say.

http://sofaraway.ytmnd.com/

[Flasch186]

I think the fact that this dissolvedinto a Arab vs. Israeli debate supports the statement I made. Iran will drop a bomb on Israel and celebrate without worrying about the repurcussions since the holyland will be back in Arab hands...since when has radioactivity made a "holy" land not holy? It still will be, and it will be theirs.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I still don't quite understand how strawmen work...

Truer words were never spoken.

Originally Posted by Dutch

Awww, shucks, that's not a strawman, that's just typical Mr Bigglesworth bullshit. Mix your bullshit with my straw and we might have some mortar, but I admit, it would still smell like shit.

Aw, poor Dutch. His fantasy world that he has staked so much on is falling apart, and he is reduced to attacking someone for something that Bush will do something that Dutch himself agrees with: attacking Iran to stop them from developing nuclear weapons. Sad.

http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2...asy-world.html

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Aw, poor Dutch. His fantasy world that he has staked so much on is falling apart,

I'm not the one that thinks America is awful bad, brother.

and he is reduced to attacking someone for something that Bush will do something that Dutch himself agrees with: attacking Iran to stop them from developing nuclear weapons. Sad.

Actually, how can I attack you on your opinion of Iran when you refuse to give it? You're so busy blathering away about how evil America is that you get wound up in your own spin.

[st.cronin]

I doubt there's a bigger hawk on the board than me. I don't see anybody suggesting it would be a good idea to attack Iran, and only the lefties think it's likely. I think it's a complete impossibility. Iran is what it is, and military force is not going to have any impact. There's not much Bush can do from a diplomacy perspective, either. It's clear to me that Iran is going to be the next administration's problem, since the next administration will have at least some credibility with Iran.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I doubt there's a bigger hawk on the board than me. I don't see anybody suggesting it would be a good idea to attack Iran, and only the lefties think it's likely. I think it's a complete impossibility. Iran is what it is, and military force is not going to have any impact. There's not much Bush can do from a diplomacy perspective, either. It's clear to me that Iran is going to be the next administration's problem, since the next administration will have at least some credibility with Iran.

Actually, Iran is Israel's problem. It's a shame that our government doesn't put the safety of it's own citizens first.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I'm not the one that thinks America is awful bad, brother.

Ah, attacking one's patriotism. The last refuge of scoundrels.

Originally Posted by Dutch

Actually, how can I attack you on your opinion of Iran when you refuse to give it? You're so busy blathering away about how evil America is that you get wound up in your own spin.

I hope this is facetious. I've written about a million posts in this thread alone going over my position. Fantasy world.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Actually, Iran is Israel's problem. It's a shame that our government doesn't put the safety of it's own citizens first.

oil

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

oil

Isreal doesn't have any oil.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Isreal doesn't have any oil.

Exactly my point. Our involvement in the Middle East has very little to do with Israel.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by -Mojo Jojo-

Follow-up, these are all several years old, I was tracking BBC links for a while just because I find it stunning how one-sided some people's views of this conflict are. Anyway, it looks like the links still work:

12 year-old shot, apparently without provocation

Hamas member, 14 civilians killed in assassination (8 children), 140 wounded

5 policemen, unassociated with terror groups, assassinated due to IDF's "bad information", also 14 year-old shot dead for throwing stones

Woman carrying baby shot and killed

Tank fires into market, unprovoked, kills 3

Woman, 3 children shredded by unprovoked tank round

13 year-old boy, pregnant woman shot at demonstrations

4 month old girl killed in shelling of Gaza town

19 year-old used by IDF as human shield, shot in head

5 dead, 2 children in assassination

6 dead, 3 children in botched assassination

doctor killed when ambulance shelled due to ambulance moving too quickly

This is a conflict where both sides violate the Geneva Convention and every other accepted standard of human rights with sickening regularity and casualness. The best that can be said of the IDF is that their intent typically lies somewhere more along the lines of reckless indifference to the loss of human life rather than willfulness.

I'm not going to sit here and defend or excuse the individual actions of IDF soliders. It seems the terrorists' tactics have worked on you very well, though, the same way they've worked on many journalists working the region.

It is in their handbooks to try and get the IDF to shoot at children and at mosques. That is one of their tactics, and it works very well, because people not paying attention to the core of the conflict can easily be convinced it's a 50/50 thing.

Have some IDF soldiers gone too far? Absolutely. And a few of them have been jailed for it. The Israelis do not want to kill citizens.

Here's the difference: if, tomorrow, the Arab extremist groups (of which there are many, all funded by different countries and factions) all decided to recognize Israel's right to exist and stop the violence, the violence would stop. The IDF wouldn't just unilaterally keep fighting.

Now, if tomorrow the IDF suddenly stopped fighting (and make no mistake about it, this is a war) and ran around with flowers instead of guns, do you think for a second the Arabs would leave them alone? If so, you have no understanding of the history of the region.

Just look at what the Arabs have tried. Repeatedly massing troops on the Israeli borders (again, Israel is about the size of New Jersey). Troops that outnumber the IDF. But somehow (most notably in the first strike against Egypt), the Israelis have remained alive.

You're quoting the Amnesty International report on Israel. While AI does some good work, they have a strange bias in that they refuse to consider a jihad a special form of abuse and they seem to target the US, in particular. Gitmo has been their cause celebre as of late.

http://www.aspenberlin.org/interesti...p?iGedminId=90

The director of AI, Irene Khan, has accomplished a lot, especially for women's rights in Islamic countries. But she is a Muslim, and began her AI career by turning its focus against Israel during the occupation of Jenin. AI's refusal to recognize the religious extremists' role in instigating so much violence around the world is a serious problem. Gitmo would not exist if Muslim extremists had not decided to kill 3,000 Americans in the attack on the WTC.

That was a declaration of war on America, and we deserve some benefit of the doubt in defending our borders, just like the IDF deserves some benefit of doubt.

So, you and the others here who conveniently forget the religious extremists' role in creating these situations continually refuse to acknowledge the fundamental problem here.

Read the Hamas Charter. Defend it. Read what Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said recently about eradicating Israel. Defend it. Read what Gamal Abdul Nasser said while massing troops on Israel's borders in 1967. Defend it.

Each abuse you mention in detail is regrettable. And some should have been punished, though some probably are misreported. The Arab side of this conflict is much clearer. You can't dismiss it as mere rhetoric because these people act on it, they live it.

Hamas is the official government of Palestine. Ahmadinejad is the elected president of Iran. Nasser was the leader of Egypt for a couple of decades.

There is a right side and a wrong side of this war, and I'm firmly on the side of the people who weren't dancing in the streets when the WTC towers fell.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Ah, attacking one's patriotism. The last refuge of scoundrels.

Do you like America or not? Simple question.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Actually, Iran is Israel's problem. It's a shame that our government doesn't put the safety of it's own citizens first.

Israel doesn't exactly have diplomatic relations with Iran (much less anyone in the region). So you suggest Iran and Isreal should wage war to solve this issue? Smart.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

That was a declaration of war on America, and we deserve some benefit of the doubt in defending our borders

Two different topics. We're still not defending our borders, btw.

Gitmo would not exist if Muslim extremists had not decided to kill 3,000 Americans in the attack on the WTC.

...you don't think that attack was precipitated by anything?

So, you and the others here who conveniently forget the religious extremists' role in creating these situations continually refuse to acknowledge the fundamental problem here.

And the imperialist countries? I think you're conveniently forgetting their roles as well

There is a right side and a wrong side of this war, and I'm firmly on the side of the people who weren't dancing in the streets when the WTC towers fell.

Are you referrencing the Israeli's videotaping and cheering 9/11?

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Do you like America or not? Simple question.

Last refuge of scoundrels.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Israel doesn't exactly have diplomatic relations with Iran (much less anyone in the region).

Jordan and Egypt

So you suggest Iran and Isreal should wage war to solve this issue? Smart.

Not necessarily. That's really up to Israel, though.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Not necessarily. That's really up to Israel, though.

In other words, it's out of the question for Iran et al. to accept Israel's existence.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

In other words, it's out of the question for Iran et al. to accept Israel's existence.

I'll leave that to the countries who have issues with Israel, and Israel themselves.

Edit: Spelling

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

I leave that to the countries who have issue with Israel, and Israel themselves.

The international community should stand down and let Iran and Israel solve this once Iran has nukes? Smart.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

...you don't think that attack was precipitated by anything?

PLEASE tell me you're not justifiying the 9/11 attacks. PLEASE tell me your blind eye to the REAL enemy in this whole situation (extremist Arabs) hasn't clouded your judgment to the level that it's now, somehow, the US's fault we were attacked. You want to take the side of the terrorists in this, that somehow they were right in killing 3,000 of us here?

And the imperialist countries? I think you're conveniently forgetting their roles as well

All the Arabs have to do is LEAVE ISRAEL ALONE. Allow them to live in peace, and they'll do the same. Hell, they've TRIED to do the same and made concession after concession to the Palestines, but yet there's still fighting. Funny, that.

I can guarantee you that if this was happening in the US, we would not have a QUARTER of the patience for our citizens being murdered on the streets that the Israelis do. You're simply on the wrong side of this, Rex. I cannot fathom how someone can justify the terrorist's stance on this.

Are you referrencing the Israeli kids videotaping and cheering 9/11?

No, I think he was referrring to the Palestinians celebrating the attacks. You must have conveniently forgotten them.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Last refuge of scoundrels.

Who are you calling scruffy looking?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

PLEASE tell me you're not justifiying the 9/11 attacks. PLEASE tell me your blind eye to the REAL enemy in this whole situation (extremist Arabs) hasn't clouded your judgment to the level that it's now, somehow, the US's fault we were attacked. You want to take the side of the terrorists in this, that somehow they were right in killing 3,000 of us here?



All the Arabs have to do is LEAVE ISRAEL ALONE. Allow them to live in peace, and they'll do the same. Hell, they've TRIED to do the same and made concession after concession to the Palestines, but yet there's still fighting. Funny, that.

I can guarantee you that if this was happening in the US, we would not have a QUARTER of the patience for our citizens being murdered on the streets that the Israelis do. You're simply on the wrong side of this, Rex. I cannot fathom how someone can justify the terrorist's stance on this.



No, I think he was referrring to the Palestinians celebrating the attacks. You must have conveniently forgotten them.

Actually, rexall believes that ISRAEL perpetrated 9.11. Or at least, he's tried to insinuate that in the past.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Dutch

The international community should stand down and let Iran and Israel solve this once Iran has nukes? Smart.

We were talking about countries and Israel and the debate over their "right to exist"

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

We were talking about countries and Israel and the debate over their "right to exist"

Why do you right to exist in quotations? Do you not feel Israel and their people have that right?

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

PLEASE tell me you're not justifiying the 9/11 attacks. PLEASE tell me your blind eye to the REAL enemy in this whole situation (extremist Arabs) hasn't clouded your judgment to the level that it's now, somehow, the US's fault we were attacked. You want to take the side of the terrorists in this, that somehow they were right in killing 3,000 of us here?

Justifying? No.

I think that extremists on any side of the fence are bad.

All the Arabs have to do is LEAVE ISRAEL ALONE. Allow them to live in peace, and they'll do the same. Hell, they've TRIED to do the same and made concession after concession to the Palestines, but yet there's still fighting. Funny, that.

Pakistan and India still fight over Kashmir.

No, I think he was referrring to the Palestinians celebrating the attacks. You must have conveniently forgotten them.

Nope, I didn't forget that. I just didn't forget the Israeli's, either.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Actually, rexall believes that ISRAEL perpetrated 9.11. Or at least, he's tried to insinuate that in the past.

I believe there's a lot more to the story than we'll ever know.

I don't believe that they perpetrated it directly, though.

[st.cronin]

lol @ comparing Pakistan and India to Israel and the Arabs

How in the world are you able to operate a computer?

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

lol @ comparing Pakistan and India to Israel and the Arabs

How in the world are you able to operate a computer?

I guess it depends on your perspective.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Why do you right to exist in quotations? Do you not feel Israel and their people have that right?

Not for me to decide. Many in the Middle East would say no.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

We were talking about countries and Israel and the debate over their "right to exist"

Originally Posted by the conversation

Dutch - So you suggest Iran and Isreal should wage war to solve this issue? Smart.

Rexalll - Not necessarily. That's really up to Israel, though.

Which led to...

The international community should stand down and let Iran and Israel solve this once Iran has nukes? Smart.

That's where you stand based on your own opinion, correct?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Not for me to decide. Many in the Middle East would say no.

Well, if you're going to take that perspective, you can't then turn around and say 'Imperialism' is wrong, because it's the same thing.