Sources: Goodell determines Pats broke rules by taping Jets' signals

[TroyF]

1) I addressed the punishment phase. Quite clearly. I haven't lost my mind at all with blind hatred of the Patriots. I was not someone who said they should be stripped of multiple first round picks. I was not someone who said they should lose a playoff spot (for two years no less). I was not someone who suggested they forfeit the game. I didn't even say Belichick should be suspended, even for a week. I've been quite rational in what I've said should happen. (and I wasn't all that far off from what I said the commish should do. He didn't give the pick to the Jets, but he gave draft pick penalty I suggested) I guess Goodall is irrational and just hates the Pats too, huh?


2) I believe the Broncos or Niners would get 3 to 5 first round picks taken away, massive fines and other punishments if they repeated their actions today. I don't think Goodall messes around at all with punishments. IMHO, the Broncos should have had one draft taken fully away, 2 more first rounders taken away, had a cap on how much they could sign any individual player in FA for and been forced to give whatever money they were under the cap to the league during the length of the punishment.
The third round pick they lost for breaking the rules was an absolute joke and there is no excuse for it. They can't take away the Super Bowl titles but they damned well should have hammered the organization.


3) Anyone who believes Belichick was simply making a DNA of the league and that this is why he ordered the video taping is a 100% nut job IMHO. He focused the camera on the coach to steal the signals to gain an advantage for the game at hand. Not for FA the following year.

4) I understand all teams try to steal signals. But all teams don't use a video camera to do it and all teams certainly don't do it when the commish has explicitly told them not to do so. if the commish sends a letter to all teams tomorrow telling teams that anyone who tries to steal signals in anyway will be severely punished, any team continuing the practice gets what they deserve if they decide to ignore the order. I don't care if every single team is doing it. The one that gets caught needs to STFU and deal with it. (and to the Patriots credit, outside of Beli trying to say he didn't do it for a competitive advantage (which I think is pure BS), they have done that. Good for them. We move on and it's over. (as this irrational Patriots hater said in his last post)

[MikeVic]

What did the Broncos do again?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Mike1409

I think Belicheck took PR advice from Mark McGwire.

No kidding. He said he'd comment more on it after the commish's ruling and his comments amounted to "thats in the past".

I'm wondering if he thought his explaination would be ok with the commish and they'd avoid punishment, and thus he'd be able to comment more on it.

Its just really odd that he said he'd comment more on it, held a press conference, and then didn't want to talk about it at all.

[stevew]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Sep17.html

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Atocep

No kidding. He said he'd comment more on it after the commish's ruling and his comments amounted to "thats in the past".

I'm wondering if he thought his explaination would be ok with the commish and they'd avoid punishment, and thus he'd be able to comment more on it.

Its just really odd that he said he'd comment more on it, held a press conference, and then didn't want to talk about it at all.

you haven't seem many belichick press conferences then

part of the reason the national media is really enjoying this story and calling the penalty light.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Atocep

No kidding. He said he'd comment more on it after the commish's ruling and his comments amounted to "thats in the past".

Did you miss the statement where he apologised and took full responsibility?

[watravaler]

Originally Posted by molson

Did you miss the statement where he apologised and took full responsibility?

A statement that some PR hack wrote?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by molson

Did you miss the statement where he apologised and took full responsibility?

As the commissioner acknowledged, our use of sideline video had no impact on the outcome of last week's game. We have never used sideline video to obtain a competitive advantage while the game was in progress.
Part of my job as head coach is to ensure that our football operations are conducted in compliance of the league rules and all accepted interpretations of them. My interpretation of a rule in the Constitution and Bylaws was incorrect.

Yes, he seemed really sorry for it....

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...cos+salary+cap

Should give you a feel for the relative levels of moral outrage here - but of course no one here is giving it to the Pats because they're the Pats

Wow, 4 posts.

[molson]

Originally Posted by watravaler

A statement that some PR hack wrote?

That's more than we got from McGuire, and that was the comparison made.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by molson

Wow, 4 posts.

I never saw the posts. I have no idea what was going on around here at teh time of it. It couls have easily slipped through the cracks at FOFC. The other thing was that this was an issue that happened well after the fact. In the case of the Pats, they were caught doing it this week. If a story came out that in 2001, they stole some Rams signals with video tape, it'd probably get the same ammount of attention the Broncos and Niners did.

If it came out tomorrow that the Broncos skirted NFL salary cap rules to sign Daniel Graham and Travis Henry, I'm fairly certain it would erupt into a 10 page threat and people would blow sky high over it. (and I'd be one of those holding the pitchfork)

[MalcPow]

Originally Posted by TroyF

If it came out tomorrow that the Broncos skirted NFL salary cap rules to sign Daniel Graham and Travis Henry, I'm fairly certain it would erupt into a 10 page threat and people would blow sky high over it. (and I'd be one of those holding the pitchfork)

You can't be serious there, there's no way that raises anything like this. At the risk of putting a toe into the 'Pats v. Everyone' drama, this controversy really is largely about the Pats being the Pats. Which isn't to say it has anything to do with obnoxious fans, Boston, the greater Northeast, or people that enjoy sailing, but everything to do with a dominant team, with arguably the league's highest profile player and coach, the odds on favorite to the win the Super Bowl, and coming off a win where they destroyed a playoff team on the road. This is a scandal because it takes down the champ, just like the Lance Armstrong allegations and the Sosa and McGwire stuff. Nobody gives a flip about what the Broncos do to sign Daniel Graham, but the Pats are top dogs, and people are lining up to take them down a notch.

Of course, odds are, they wipe the floor with people from here on out and maybe this motivates them even more than they already were. In that case, it's a pretty short-lived takedown and they get the last laugh.

[rkmsuf]

Can't wait for the next Belichick/Mangini handshake at midfield.

If it ever happens.

[Kodos]

We all know that Belichick doesn't like to shake hands after a defeat.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Kodos

We all know that Belichick doesn't like to shake hands after a defeat.

I wouldn't call Mangini a winner here. He better hope those pictures of him dressed up as little bo peep aren't released by Bill.

[Kodos]

He cost his rival a 1st rounder (most likely) and $750,000. That's a win, baby!

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Kodos

He cost his rival a 1st rounder (most likely) and $750,000. That's a win, baby!

Wait for the revenge in whatever form it takes. Then we'll check the scoreboard.

A 127-3 Pats victory in Dec and details of Mangini frequenting the NYC booths would make it a close game.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by MalcPow

This is a scandal because it takes down the champ

How does this take down the Colts?

[Kodos]

F'n Elitist Pats fans. They think they're the champs. Crown 'em, I guess.

[Young Drachma]

THE PATRIOTS WERE WHO WE THOUGHT THEY WERE!

[ISiddiqui]

And now it all comes full circle

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Wait for the revenge in whatever form it takes. Then we'll check the scoreboard.

A 127-3 Pats victory in Dec and details of Mangini frequenting the NYC booths would make it a close game.

No kidding. I have no doubt Belichick will be going into the the no huddle even though they are up by 7 TDs when they meet in Dec. to run up the score on the Jets and I can't say I would blame they for doing it either.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by MalcPow

You can't be serious there, there's no way that raises anything like this. At the risk of putting a toe into the 'Pats v. Everyone' drama, this controversy really is largely about the Pats being the Pats. Which isn't to say it has anything to do with obnoxious fans, Boston, the greater Northeast, or people that enjoy sailing, but everything to do with a dominant team, with arguably the league's highest profile player and coach, the odds on favorite to the win the Super Bowl, and coming off a win where they destroyed a playoff team on the road. This is a scandal because it takes down the champ, just like the Lance Armstrong allegations and the Sosa and McGwire stuff. Nobody gives a flip about what the Broncos do to sign Daniel Graham, but the Pats are top dogs, and people are lining up to take them down a notch.

Of course, odds are, they wipe the floor with people from here on out and maybe this motivates them even more than they already were. In that case, it's a pretty short-lived takedown and they get the last laugh.

I'm dead serious here. Yeah, the Pats have some haters. They have irrational people ripping on em. That isn't fair. (of course, this irrational Pats hater wrote that above too, but nobody bothers to read it)

But take a high profile team/coach and have a PROVEN allegation of cheating? Hell, there is no way it doesn't erupt. If it's the Colts/Broncos/Jets/Giants/Cowboys/Eagles/Bears/Chargers/Steelers/Saints or even a Falcons/Lions thing, it's going to get blown up. The Patriots fans acting as though their team is the only one persucuted need to grow up. This is a story no matter who it is. It's MORE of a story because it's the Patriots, but not a bunch more.

After the punishment of the Patriots, no other team will be stupid enough to ignore a league memo, so we probably won't have the chance to find out for awhile.

[jeff061]

After the punishment of the Patriots, no other team will be stupid enough to ignore a league memo, so we probably won't have the chance to find out for awhile.

Doubt that. They'll just be more careful. The only reason Belichick will stop taping the opposing sideline is because Kraft probably put him on a short leash. I bet the guy almost wants to do it more now, just out of spite.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Doubt that. They'll just be more careful. The only reason Belichick will stop taping the opposing sideline is because Kraft probably put him on a short leash. I bet the guy almost wants to do it more now, just out of spite.

Teams will still "cheat" in trying to steal signs. They won't let one of their cameraman get within fifty feet of an opposing teams sideline. Teams aren't going to risk a first round pick to send a guy out there video taping.

The ones that do? I hope they get caught and them and their fans deal with it. Goodall has shown he will not tolerate inappropriate conduct by players or teams. The ones who choose to go against him, no matter how careful they are, are playing with fire.

[stevew]

We all need to calm down about the Patriots* and concentrate more on how awesome Adrian Petersen is going to be this year.

[Greyroofoo]

I have w/ great reluctance declared that NCAA is the superior sport to the NFL. At least the NCAA will dish out punishments. The NFL will only place a slap on the fist like a bunch of fucking dancers

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

I have w/ great reluctance declared that NCAA is the superior sport to the NFL. At least the NCAA will dish out punishments. The NFL will only place a slap on the fist like a bunch of fucking dancers

Reggie Bush doesn't think so.

[Greyroofoo]

I can't w/ greact reluctance follow My Colts this year. I have follow Michigan or Toledo this year. I can't follow my Colts until the NFL agreess to purge out every frickcken cheaten fuckin element out.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

I have w/ great reluctance declared that NCAA is the superior sport to the NFL. At least the NCAA will dish out punishments. The NFL will only place a slap on the fist like a bunch of fucking dancers

Yes, I agree that an organization that makes billions of dollars on the backs of players but spends time making sure Jimmy doesn't get an extra $100 in his paycheck for not doing anything (even though the kid has never seen a hundred dollar bill in his life) is quite the morally superior entity.

And it is also clear that no sign stealing/deciphering occurs in the NCAA, nor have players participated as a walk-on during spring camp, only to return to the rival college with information come the fall. The NFL dished out a punishment here. The NCAA never even would have given a punishment. Plus, I don't believe they even have this rule in the NCAA, so in fact video taping of signals most likely is quite legal in the NCAA.

Did somebody actually stand up for the NCAA in this thread? Utterly shocking.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Yes, I agree that an organization that makes billions of dollars on the backs of players but spends time making sure Jimmy doesn't get an extra $100 in his paycheck for not doing anything (even though the kid has never seen a hundred dollar bill in his life) is quite the morally superior entity.

And it is also clear that no sign stealing/deciphering occurs in the NCAA, nor have players participated as a walk-on during spring camp, only to return to the rival college with information come the fall. The NFL dished out a punishment here. The NCAA never even would have given a punishment. Plus, I don't believe they even have this rule in the NCAA, so in fact video taping of signals most likely is quite legal in the NCAA.

Did somebody actually stand up for the NCAA in this thread? Utterly shocking.

I'm so hoping that was sarcasm. I didn't respond because of it. The corruptness of the NCAA makes the NFL look like a bunch of boy scouts.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

I have w/ great reluctance declared that NCAA is the superior sport to the NFL. At least the NCAA will dish out punishments. The NFL will only place a slap on the fist like a bunch of fucking dancers

Considering the amount of shit that folks in the SEC (YOUR area) get away with, this may be the biggest PKB in the history of FOFC.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

I have w/ great reluctance declared that NCAA is the superior sport to the NFL. At least the NCAA will dish out punishments. The NFL will only place a slap on the fist like a bunch of fucking dancers

And the Pats fans and Pats haters all of a sudden become united against a common enemy. This is possibly the single most comically incorrect statement I've ever read on this board.

[CU Tiger]

This story may not be over

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3022773


But what the hell. They may be punished further if they find out the team copied the tapes?
I'm assuming this is a violation of the copyright rule?
As I recall any unauthorized images, accounts or descriptions of this game...
What about they may be fined for describing how their day at the office went to their family?

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

This story may not be over

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3022773


But what the hell. They may be punished further if they find out the team copied the tapes?
I'm assuming this is a violation of the copyright rule?
As I recall any unauthorized images, accounts or descriptions of this game...
What about they may be fined for describing how their day at the office went to their family?

He doesn't want them to make copies because then it defeats the purpose of taking the tapes away from them in the first place. The team would still have an advantage if they continued to have a library of tapes with team's signals, it's an intelligent move by Goodell since it was the only other concern I had with the matter.

[ISiddiqui]

It seems to me that teams are kind of still operating under the assumption Tags is in the head chair. Goodell is far more of a hard ass on these things and won't just simply wink and nod.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Yes, I agree that an organization that makes billions of dollars on the backs of players but spends time making sure Jimmy doesn't get an extra $100 in his paycheck for not doing anything (even though the kid has never seen a hundred dollar bill in his life) is quite the morally superior entity.

And it is also clear that no sign stealing/deciphering occurs in the NCAA, nor have players participated as a walk-on during spring camp, only to return to the rival college with information come the fall. The NFL dished out a punishment here. The NCAA never even would have given a punishment. Plus, I don't believe they even have this rule in the NCAA, so in fact video taping of signals most likely is quite legal in the NCAA.

Did somebody actually stand up for the NCAA in this thread? Utterly shocking.

Seriously - the NCAA is the biggest piece of shit around, and a despicable institution.

[Kodos]

Goodell kicks ass. I love him. Love him. LOVE HIM.

[SirFozzie]

Interesting. I didn't see this myself on the pregame, but wow, it's interesting to see what all teams do. (yes, I know it doesn't change anything, but at least it clarifies the amount of cheating that's going on)..

If anybody watched "FOX NFL SUNDAY" aka the pregame show, they would finally hear the opinions voiced that what the Pats did was the norm not the exception.

Jimmy Johnson said a bunch of things that I didn't expect. I thought he would say the whole "everybody does it so it's not big deal" thing, but I wasn't expecting the rest.

Jimmy said that he did everything that the Pats did when he coached both in college and in the NFL. Then Barry Switzer said that he did everything also except for a couple years with the Cowboys.

I thought it was over until Jimmy said that he had an intern whose only job was to go to the opposing teams' box after the game and look through the trash for gameplans, plays, etc. to use in the future.

[Kodos]

Jimmy Johnson was a cheater? SHOCKING!

[molson]

NFL coaches are nutty. They wouldn't have reached their level of success if they weren't.

[MikeVic]

What better nutty or smooth NFL coach

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Doesn't surprise me. It doesn't make it right 'cause the rule was broken, but it hopefully should dampen the high and mighty road taken by some in terms of the level of punishment that should have been meted out for the infraction. But probably not.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Interesting. I didn't see this myself on the pregame, but wow, it's interesting to see what all teams do. (yes, I know it doesn't change anything, but at least it clarifies the amount of cheating that's going on)..

If anybody watched "FOX NFL SUNDAY" aka the pregame show, they would finally hear the opinions voiced that what the Pats did was the norm not the exception.

Jimmy Johnson said a bunch of things that I didn't expect. I thought he would say the whole "everybody does it so it's not big deal" thing, but I wasn't expecting the rest.

Jimmy said that he did everything that the Pats did when he coached both in college and in the NFL. Then Barry Switzer said that he did everything also except for a couple years with the Cowboys.

I thought it was over until Jimmy said that he had an intern whose only job was to go to the opposing teams' box after the game and look through the trash for gameplans, plays, etc. to use in the future.

good. I'm glad. Now maybe all the Pats-haters can get off their high-horses and realize that their teams do/did it too.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Interesting. I didn't see this myself on the pregame, but wow, it's interesting to see what all teams do. (yes, I know it doesn't change anything, but at least it clarifies the amount of cheating that's going on)..

If anybody watched "FOX NFL SUNDAY" aka the pregame show, they would finally hear the opinions voiced that what the Pats did was the norm not the exception.

Jimmy Johnson said a bunch of things that I didn't expect. I thought he would say the whole "everybody does it so it's not big deal" thing, but I wasn't expecting the rest.

Jimmy said that he did everything that the Pats did when he coached both in college and in the NFL. Then Barry Switzer said that he did everything also except for a couple years with the Cowboys.

I thought it was over until Jimmy said that he had an intern whose only job was to go to the opposing teams' box after the game and look through the trash for gameplans, plays, etc. to use in the future.

Sad that it took until Sunday for people to hear this point of view. Everyone should have NFL Radio on Sirius. They have 1/2 of the head coaches in the league on every week, and hosted by former players, coaches, and GMs. The former guys are the ones who give you the most info of course. It was a good week of talk about the whole thing.

I think the team got the right punishment, and that the cheating was not the end of the world at all, but just an extension of the norm.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by Cringer

I think the team got the right punishment, and that the cheating was not the end of the world at all, but just an extension of the norm.

You hit it bang on Cringer boy.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Interesting. I didn't see this myself on the pregame, but wow, it's interesting to see what all teams do. (yes, I know it doesn't change anything, but at least it clarifies the amount of cheating that's going on)..
...
Jimmy Johnson said a bunch of things that I didn't expect. I thought he would say the whole "everybody does it so it's not big deal" thing, but I wasn't expecting the rest.

Jimmy said that he did everything that the Pats did when he coached both in college and in the NFL. Then Barry Switzer said that he did everything also except for a couple years with the Cowboys.

So, essentially, you are saying that because New England is no worse than the mid-90s Cowboys, everyone should lay off the cheating comments. Makes sense...

In all seriousness, I think most teams employ some kind of technique to get signs. The Pats have just tried to push the envelop a bit and got caught.

[EagleFan]

Pats fans sound a lot like someone who just got caught speeding...

(whine)"But everyone does it..."(/whine)


I think that coach should be bitch slapped just for his response alone. Be a freaking man and own up to it, don't try to act like a little 5 year old and say "but I didn't know it was wrong".

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Pats fans sound a lot like someone who just got caught speeding...

(whine)"But everyone does it..."(/whine)

Actually, that's not at all what the Pats' fans here were saying with respect to the actual rule breaking. Certainly, an issue with respect to the level of punishment, especially when you have talking head and former players on the losing end calling for forfeiture of SBs and banishment from playoffs. So, in that context, it is an appropriate way to respond.

[Grammaticus]

Honestly, I think they are more concerned with the asterik.