Oblivion: Elder Scrolls IV - PC Roleplaying Game

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Wolvendancer

Unlike every other Fallout fan on the face of the planet.

No doubt it will a very pretty, very vacant First Person game, with TEH RADIANT AI (which causes the NPCs to ignore the fact that, you know, you just stole something from them when they speak to you), an inane conversation minigame that replace actual story and dialog, and the wonderful tactical turn-based combat replaced by an abortive FPS monstrosity.

Oblivion is semi-fun first-person adventure game with some enormous flaws, but in every important way, it is a step back what is now apparent was the golden age of computer RPGs - Baldur's Gate 2, Fallout 1 & 2, Planescape: Torment. Hell, Oblivion is even a step back from many of the things Daggerfall did well. If Bethesda can't even learn from their own games, I have no faith they will keep the heart of Fallout alive. The Fallout 3 that Troika would have made would likely have been 3/4ths complete and full of bugs, but it would have had a soul.

Hello Wolvendancer, welcome to the FOFC. I have never seen your screen name before and would like to welcome you to this bar we call the FOFC. Anyways, we'll have to see what they do with Fallout, but I had always wanted a change for that game since they just seemed to keep the same engine for all the sequels. I will give Bethseda some props for taking a chance on each game they make. They are always willing to try something new.

Hey and I just found out that Bioware is opening an office in Austin, TX. I am going to be a sucker and try to see if I could apply for a job there. I see you are a writer and if this falls into the fiction area, you may want to apply there yourself.

[BYU 14]

Just closed my first gate tonight, had a scary fight with the Sigal Keymaster, luckily was able to get him turned on the stair case and knock him off the edge where he fell to his death....then returned to liberate Kvatch, the street to street fighting with the city guard was ultra intense, the combat system is really growing on me. Ended the night joining the Blades.....I like how just when you think you have finished a quest, I.E getting Martin back to the priests, something always comes up, in this case the weynory getting attacked and the Amulet of Kings stolen, having a lot of fun so far.

It is funny Fallout came up here, because I have to say this is the most fun I am having with an RPG since Fallout 2. Baldurs gate 2 is up there as well, but I don't remember having to tear myself away from that game like I am with this one.

I hope like hell Bethesda doesn't botch Fallout 3....that series is my favorite RPG series of all time and as fun as Oblivion is, I really don't want to see FO3 become a FPS/RPG.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Just closed my first gate tonight, had a scary fight with the Sigal Keymaster, luckily was able to get him turned on the stair case and knock him off the edge where he fell to his death....then returned to liberate Kvatch, the street to street fighting with the city guard was ultra intense, the combat system is really growing on me. Ended the night joining the Blades.....I like how just when you think you have finished a quest, I.E getting Martin back to the priests, something always comes up, in this case the weynory getting attacked and the Amulet of Kings stolen, having a lot of fun so far.

It is funny Fallout came up here, because I have to say this is the most fun I am having with an RPG since Fallout 2. Baldurs gate 2 is up there as well, but I don't remember having to tear myself away from that game like I am with this one.

I hope like hell Bethesda doesn't botch Fallout 3....that series is my favorite RPG series of all time and as fun as Oblivion is, I really don't want to see FO3 become a FPS/RPG.

That was the point when I went from being fairly lukewarm on Oblivion to getting just utterly sucked in. The preamble up to that point is fairly boring, but it's hard not to get an adrenaline rush during the gate of Kvatch and the siege of Kvatch.

[Antmeister]

Here is the character I am currently playing. My class in a modified version of the Spellsword, but focuses more on stealth. Should be interesting to see how it goes:

[ISiddiqui]

Btw, count me in as one of those saying this game is as fun as anything since Fallout. I don't think this is a 'big step back'. It is quite a good game, done VERY differently than the Fallout's, the Baldur's Gate's, etc. TES games are mostly focused on the immersive experience and the freedom to go anywhere and do anything at any time. The concept is different than the Bioware & Black Isle games, which were more linear, but that has its pros as well (better flow to the story for one).

I seriously doubt they'll do Fallout like a TES game. The goals are different for each game. Though if they do make it First Person, I won't mind, because the original Deus Ex was done that way and did not suffer in the roleplaying aspects. Though turn based combat would be fun.

[Lorena]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

Here is the character I am currently playing. My class in a modified version of the Spellsword, but focuses more on stealth. Should be interesting to see how it goes:

Aha... from board to game... I'm still watching

[Wolvendancer]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

Hello Wolvendancer, welcome to the FOFC. I have never seen your screen name before and would like to welcome you to this bar we call the FOFC.

Thanks - I've been a lurker since the FOFC moved sites, so I've been here awhile.

There are many places in which Oblivion is *objectively* bad game design.

1. The levelling mechanic (in which the majority of the entire world levels with you) is god-awful. This actually DISCOURAGES you from levelling, since if you level and raise 'fun' (non-combat) skills instead of combat ones, you begin to fall behind the curve.

2. The loot mechanic is nearly as god-awful. Purely lazy game design has decreed that, in order to keep your character from getting ahead of the curve, your rewards are not tied in any way to the difficulty of achieving them. Fight through that deep, dark dungeon and find an incredibly hard chest to pick - loot generated to your level. Walk into a house and find a horribly simple lock to pick - loot generated to your level. How in the hell did this pass the design stage of the game?

3. The conversation 'mini-game'. What were they thinking? I guess programming this insipid, anti-intuitional little game was less labor-intensive that, you know, actually writing meaningful dialog... not that meaningful dealog has ever appeared in a TES.

4. The game system has gotten progressively less complex with every game since Daggerfall. This is quite intentional - a dumbing-down of the game for the mas audience.

5. The GUI in the game is one of the worst I've ever seen. It is clearly designed for the X-Box, with no consideration for the PC user. Man, I just love clicking through seven screens to get where I want.

6. The RADIANT AI is anything but.

That's setting aside personal preference about turn-based vs realtime, etc. Daggerfall remains one of my favorite games. Morrowind has its moments, though it's unbalanced and becomes easy very quickly. Oblivion gives me the joys of being 'The Greatest Fighter in All the Land and Champion of the Arena" at LEVEL 6, after which I walk outside the walls and get absolutely torn up by a mountain lion which will always scale to my level. Yeah, that's IMMERSIVE.

*sigh*

And the Bioware office in Austin will be creating the new Bioware MMO. Writing for an MMO might be close to my vision of Hell.

[Wolvendancer]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Btw, count me in as one of those saying this game is as fun as anything since Fallout. I don't think this is a 'big step back'. It is quite a good game, done VERY differently than the Fallout's, the Baldur's Gate's, etc. TES games are mostly focused on the immersive experience and the freedom to go anywhere and do anything at any time. The concept is different than the Bioware & Black Isle games, which were more linear, but that has its pros as well (better flow to the story for one).

There is more real freedom in Fallout than there is in 1/100th of Oblivion:

Real freedom to create many different types of character - melee, firearms, martial arts, charismatic leader, recruiter, thief - in fact, you can beat the games without fighting anything if you like. Add to that stats that have a concerted affect on your gameplay experience. Smarter? More dialog choices. Charismatic? People react more favorably to you.

Real freedom to make decisions and have those decisions affect your world.

Real freedom to solve different quests in different ways.

Real freedom to make decisions about risk-reward, and have those decisions pay dividends.

Combined with the fact that you can go anywhere in the world in Fallout at Level 1, if you can survive.

Oblivion, on the other hand, is very pretty, so long as you can ignore those 'loading' messages and the fact that distance popup is almost laughably bad.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Wolvendancer

Thanks - I've been a lurker since the FOFC moved sites, so I've been here awhile.

There are many places in which Oblivion is *objectively* bad game design.

1. The levelling mechanic (in which the majority of the entire world levels with you) is god-awful. This actually DISCOURAGES you from levelling, since if you level and raise 'fun' (non-combat) skills instead of combat ones, you begin to fall behind the curve.

2. The loot mechanic is nearly as god-awful. Purely lazy game design has decreed that, in order to keep your character from getting ahead of the curve, your rewards are not tied in any way to the difficulty of achieving them. Fight through that deep, dark dungeon and find an incredibly hard chest to pick - loot generated to your level. Walk into a house and find a horribly simple lock to pick - loot generated to your level. How in the hell did this pass the design stage of the game?

3. The conversation 'mini-game'. What were they thinking? I guess programming this insipid, anti-intuitional little game was less labor-intensive that, you know, actually writing meaningful dialog... not that meaningful dealog has ever appeared in a TES.

4. The game system has gotten progressively less complex with every game since Daggerfall. This is quite intentional - a dumbing-down of the game for the mas audience.

5. The GUI in the game is one of the worst I've ever seen. It is clearly designed for the X-Box, with no consideration for the PC user. Man, I just love clicking through seven screens to get where I want.

6. The RADIANT AI is anything but.

That's setting aside personal preference about turn-based vs realtime, etc. Daggerfall remains one of my favorite games. Morrowind has its moments, though it's unbalanced and becomes easy very quickly. Oblivion gives me the joys of being 'The Greatest Fighter in All the Land and Champion of the Arena" at LEVEL 6, after which I walk outside the walls and get absolutely torn up by a mountain lion which will always scale to my level. Yeah, that's IMMERSIVE.

*sigh*

And the Bioware office in Austin will be creating the new Bioware MMO. Writing for an MMO might be close to my vision of Hell.

There are mods out or coming out that addresses many of those concerns. I know I was expecting some of these types of problems and held off on getting too far into the game since I was planning on starting over once some of the mods came out that would allow me to balance the game to my liking. I know there are mods out that address the Arena level scaling problem as well as the loot scaling problems. I also think there are some mods being developed that change the GUI to some degree. I'm not sure what's out there for some of the other issues you've noted. I know for me, I don't mind the leveling mechanic nor the conversation mini-game so I haven't really looked to see if there are mods out there for those things.

I really like the way they've handled the ability to mod things in this game. I think you hit it on the head when you mentioned they've changed the game to be attractive to the mainstream, but with the ability to mod so many things in the game I think they've given the more hardcore gamers the ability to mod those things to their own preferences (unlike Maximum Football which expects people to use mods to add basic functions ).

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Wolvendancer

Thanks - I've been a lurker since the FOFC moved sites, so I've been here awhile.

Wow! That is a long time being a lurker. I thought I was a long time lurker since I was a member before they moved a well, but you have me beat by a number of years.

1. The levelling mechanic (in which the majority of the entire world levels with you) is god-awful. This actually DISCOURAGES you from levelling, since if you level and raise 'fun' (non-combat) skills instead of combat ones, you begin to fall behind the curve.

I don't know. I haven't really encountered too many problems while trying to learn haggling and bartering while using my combat skills. But then again, I am only at level 5. I will have to see how it looks as it progresses.

2. The loot mechanic is nearly as god-awful. Purely lazy game design has decreed that, in order to keep your character from getting ahead of the curve, your rewards are not tied in any way to the difficulty of achieving them. Fight through that deep, dark dungeon and find an incredibly hard chest to pick - loot generated to your level. Walk into a house and find a horribly simple lock to pick - loot generated to your level. How in the hell did this pass the design stage of the game?

I don't really see too much of a problem with this. A number of linear games use this same method, but since this is more open, they didn't want anyone to easily beat the game by locating the secret stash that made one's character unbeatable.

3. The conversation 'mini-game'. What were they thinking? I guess programming this insipid, anti-intuitional little game was less labor-intensive that, you know, actually writing meaningful dialog... not that meaningful dealog has ever appeared in a TES.

Ok....now I see why you hate it. I actually like the implementation of the mini games. It make me feel like I am actually working to gain a NPC's trust. In Morrowind, I had to basically bribe every shopkeeper to get them on my good side to sell lower. I treat the mini games like "small talk". This occurs in real life and the mini-games just make them more palatable.

4. The game system has gotten progressively less complex with every game since Daggerfall. This is quite intentional - a dumbing-down of the game for the mas audience.

I can't argue with this too much. Daggerfall is still a great accomplishment in CRPG. When you entered a city in that game, you actually felt like you were in a real city. The amount of housing and business complexes were staggering.

5. The GUI in the game is one of the worst I've ever seen. It is clearly designed for the X-Box, with no consideration for the PC user. Man, I just love clicking through seven screens to get where I want.

Yeah it is obvious the GUI is more geared toward the console. It took a little while to get used to. No arguement here.

6. The RADIANT AI is anything but.

Haven't played long enough to see how my actions affected anyone yet.

That's setting aside personal preference about turn-based vs realtime, etc. Daggerfall remains one of my favorite games. Morrowind has its moments, though it's unbalanced and becomes easy very quickly. Oblivion gives me the joys of being 'The Greatest Fighter in All the Land and Champion of the Arena" at LEVEL 6, after which I walk outside the walls and get absolutely torn up by a mountain lion which will always scale to my level. Yeah, that's IMMERSIVE.

I think the most immersive portion of the game is the main storyline. It might just be me, but I feel that I remember a lot more details of this story than I did with Morrowind, because I didn't feel like I was just trying to get to my next task.

In Morrowind, I couldn't remember what to do most of the time because I had so many task going on. If I was away from the game for a week, I didn't remember details of my previous tasks at all.

In Oblivion, this game is much more cinematic and I have no problem remembering what I was supposed to do. This is simply because I feel much more involved in the story and my actions do feel like they make a difference.

And the Bioware office in Austin will be creating the new Bioware MMO. Writing for an MMO might be close to my vision of Hell.

LOL!

[Eaglesfan27]

Antmeister's post above mostly summed up my reaction, except I do find the conversation minigame to be annoying at times. Otherwise, I agree with Antmeister's post. Personally, I'm going to play through the game with this main character one time before installing any mods. Yes, some fights are hard due to the scaling of mobs, but I think once I get some enchantments will balance it out. Also, I'd prefer some really hard fights than Morrowind where all of the fights were too easy too quickly. However, once I finish the game once with my main character, I'm looking forward to trying it again with a different character class and some mods installed. The fact that I'm looking forward to playing the whole game again with a different character just speaks to me about how much I'm enjoying the game.

[Bee]

Ant,

Did you try to get your character to look like you? I tried that but didn't want to be an orc.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Bee

Ant,

Did you try to get your character to look like you? I tried that but didn't want to be an orc.

On my first attempt, I had my character look somewhat like me, but skin fades weren't an option. I tried to find a bald one and they didn't have that either. So I settled for cornrows. Later I tried to adjust the skin tone and somehow I jacked that up and ended up a purplish orange.

On my second attempt, I barely modified anything and just accepted the above screenshot as my character. I didn't want to go through all of those options again since I was too excited to play. I later discovered they made a bald mod and will probably try to make my next character look more like me on the next go round.

By the way, I think I would make a good looking orc.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Wolvendancer

Thanks - I've been a lurker since the FOFC moved sites, so I've been here awhile.

There are many places in which Oblivion is *objectively* bad game design.

1. The levelling mechanic (in which the majority of the entire world levels with you) is god-awful. This actually DISCOURAGES you from levelling, since if you level and raise 'fun' (non-combat) skills instead of combat ones, you begin to fall behind the curve.

Oh please! If you want to play a thief character and then stride into areas of the game by going toe to toe, then you deserve to get your ass kicked. If you actually play like a thief and sneak around, hide, take shots with a bow, you'll find you don't fall behind at all.

If you are an alchemist use your potions in battle!

Too many people want to play the non-combat skills and then when getting into combat want to forget all that and play the warrior! Of course they'll get their asses handed to them if they do that!

And yes, you'll need some melee combat skills at some point. You can't totally ignore it. And if you find it tooo hard, you can lower the difficulty.

The leveling system provides a constant challenge without designating areas that are easy and areas that are hard, forcing linearity on you. The attempts in Morrowind, unfortunately, made the game way too easy when you hit level 10. This time they decided to make the creatures harder. Instead of become a God, I'm actually having to think about strategy in my battles.

And I've never though I'm not going to level up, so I can go through this game easily! If you want to do it, Hell, you bought the game, do what you want. I want to have some fun, so I'm going to level up whenever I can.

2. The loot mechanic is nearly as god-awful. Purely lazy game design has decreed that, in order to keep your character from getting ahead of the curve, your rewards are not tied in any way to the difficulty of achieving them. Fight through that deep, dark dungeon and find an incredibly hard chest to pick - loot generated to your level. Walk into a house and find a horribly simple lock to pick - loot generated to your level. How in the hell did this pass the design stage of the game?

Same thing as the monster leveling. Its to provide a constant challenge and not being able to luck into some amazing weapon that can carry you for the rest of the game because you stumbled into some hard dungeon and were able to get to the chest or you got lucky and actually hit all the tumblers.

I remember what happened in Morrowind once I got my daedric claymore. I'm glad I'm not able to grab one in Oblivion yet at my level 10 state.

3. The conversation 'mini-game'. What were they thinking? I guess programming this insipid, anti-intuitional little game was less labor-intensive that, you know, actually writing meaningful dialog... not that meaningful dealog has ever appeared in a TES.

What in the world is the problem with the speechcraft game?! Its fun and it does its purpose without relying on total random results if you hit 'coerce'. And they could have worked on detailed dialog, but Hell, for that many people? They'd rather prefer to keep the keyword system, so you get what you need.

4. The game system has gotten progressively less complex with every game since Daggerfall. This is quite intentional - a dumbing-down of the game for the mas audience.

Why, since they took out unneccesarily complexities like having a 'medium armor' and spliting swords into 'longswords' and 'shortshorts'? Complexity for the sake of complexity adds nothing.

I'm glad they simplified a bit of the system while still having plenty of skills and weapons classes involved. At some point it was just too much for no real reason.

5. The GUI in the game is one of the worst I've ever seen. It is clearly designed for the X-Box, with no consideration for the PC user. Man, I just love clicking through seven screens to get where I want.

You've played Morrowind? The GUI that looked like some 5 year designed it (based entirely on tool tips). And if you are clicking though seven screens then you should just give up because for most people it may take 2 clicks to get where they want to go.

I mean, hit F1 for the player stats and click on a tab for more detail. Hit F2 for inventory. F3 for spells. F4 for the map and journal (far better than Morrowind's).

And while there probably should be an ability to have "M" for map and "J" for journal, it isn't the big deal that people seemingly think it is. I mean it really is not difficult at all to get through to find what you want.

Everything is all there. It's better than having to close the journal so you can get to the map.

6. The RADIANT AI is anything but.

It's far better than any other NPC AI I've seen yet. They do crazy things, but you can't be perfect on this... not at this point in computer development.

get absolutely torn up by a mountain lion which will always scale to my level.

Individual creatures do not scale to the player level unless they are at the top of the creature list. What happens is when the player levels, new tougher creatures are spawned.

Combined with the fact that you can go anywhere in the world in Fallout at Level 1, if you can survive.

Yeah see, that ain't freedom to go anywhere. "If you can survive", meaning we have a de facto linearity, based on easiness of area. Fallout was fairly non-linear, compared to Planescape:Torment, etc. It did allow you to do the main quests after the water chip one in which ever order you wanted. However, there was the "if you can survive" de facto linearity built in.

TES tries to minimize even the de facto linearity! It really wants you to be able to go anywhere, at anytime. That means you can't have places where if you go there, you'll die. That's forcing a linear path on the player. The leveling system in Oblivion (and which was in Morrowind to certain extent) is necessary for the non-linear game created. If certain areas are too hard to begin for a lvl 1 character, you've closed that part off, told the player to play in the easy section, and come back here later. Ie, you've set a linear pathway for the player.

That may indeed work in plenty of games, and it does. But TES games want to be a totally different type of game. Not the same old.

[BYU 14]

I agree with ISiddiqui on the leveling concept....If it is really necessary to block off certain areas at the beginning it can be done just effectively by putting certain requirements on the player I.E. have to find a certain key, reach a certain level in a certain guild, etc. That imposes some linear aspects I know, but it is still up to the player when they go there, not the game....in other words you really want to go to place X, focus on finding the key or do what you need to advance in the guild....you can do this as fast or slow as you want and it is still not based on level.

[Wolvendancer]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Oh please! If you want to play a thief character and then stride into areas of the game by going toe to toe, then you deserve to get your ass kicked. If you actually play like a thief and sneak around, hide, take shots with a bow, you'll find you don't fall behind at all.

That is demonstrably NOT what people are finding. Go and look at posts on the official forums - forums that, it must be said, literally set a new standard for fanboi-ism before the game was released.

But you aren't understanding my basic point re: levelling and loot. A basic concept in game theory is risk/reward. If I'm risking more, I need to be rewarded more. Oblivion doesn't care how much I'm risking or how I'm playing; it only cares about my level. It's like a silly stereotypical version of a communist RPG.

People are keen to take about Oblivion being immersive. When the easy and the difficult chests all have the same things in them, when all of the bandits start running around in daedric armor, when I'm the best fighter in the land at Level 6 but wildlife keeps killing me, that's the OPPOSITE of immersion. Oblivion is demonstrably the least immersive 'RPG' I've ever seen.

Bethesda has thrown the baby out with the bathwater. They *failed* in Morrowind at creating a decently assymetrically-scaling game world, so they just made everything scale. Levelling is meaningless. Why not just remove levelling altogether if the world levels with you? I think that's a lot more honest.

Yeah see, that ain't freedom to go anywhere. "If you can survive", meaning we have a de facto linearity, based on easiness of area. Fallout was fairly non-linear, compared to Planescape:Torment, etc. It did allow you to do the main quests after the water chip one in which ever order you wanted. However, there was the "if you can survive" de facto linearity built in.

You obviously have no idea what linearality means.

Linearality = the ability to only travel a straight line while playing the game. Fallout didn't do this. Ever. Neither did Fallout 2. Neither resorted to the cheap gimmicks that Oblivion trots out. Could you always go everywhere? No, but that has nothing to do with linearality.

But let me give you another example. When you start Fallout 2, you can sneak down into California. While there, if you are lucky and can dodge the other nasty encounters, you can sometimes encounter two groups of opposing gangs fighting. By waiting the combat out and helping the side that is losing, you can ensure that both groups die and then loot the corpses. The weapons and equipment gained are worth quite a lot of money and are better than anything you'll see for awhile. Is the game a cakewalk if you manage this? No, the system is better than that. But you are rewarded for your ingenuity and risks taken.

It is very difficult to pull the above off, and you need to have some knowledge, the ability to formulate the plan, and a little luck. Bethedsa messed up the balance in Morrowind so badly that they are deathly afraid to ever reward you as a player... or rather, they reward everything equally.

That may indeed work in plenty of games, and it does. But TES games want to be a totally different type of game. Not the same old.

Better old-fashioned quality than avante garde idiocy, in my opinion. Your milage may vary.

I did snip a lot of your post. You are either the exact target audience for the game - and seeing as they aimed it at 11 year-olds, that might get you thinking - or you are the kind of person inclined to justify every creative decision someone makes. If you like the conversation minigame more than actual conversation, if you think that the difference between long blades and short or the actual existance of weapon-types removed from Oblivion is needless complexity, there's not much else I can say.

In the end, you win. The dumbing-down of the PC game audience is almost complete, and it's much more likely we'll be seeing another Oblivion than another Fallout anytime soon.

[Wolvendancer]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

Wow! That is a long time being a lurker. I thought I was a long time lurker since I was a member before they moved a well, but you have me beat by a number of years.

I really need to get back to lurking; I'm ruining my nearly-unblemished record of not posting.

I don't know. I haven't really encountered too many problems while trying to learn haggling and bartering while using my combat skills. But then again, I am only at level 5. I will have to see how it looks as it progresses.

I hope it works out for you. I think most people are having problems around Level 15, though some are saying it gets better after Level 25.

I don't really see too much of a problem with this. A number of linear games use this same method, but since this is more open, they didn't want anyone to easily beat the game by locating the secret stash that made one's character unbeatable.

What game is this possible in? Can't do it in Fallout, Fallout 2, Planescape, any of the Gold Box games, any of the Ultimas... literally, what game is this possible in? I'll give you one: Morrowind. But by looking at that list and seeing that, of all games that use assymmetrical balance systems, only Morrowind has that problem, maybe the problem lies elsewhere?

I can't argue with this too much. Daggerfall is still a great accomplishment in CRPG. When you entered a city in that game, you actually felt like you were in a real city. The amount of housing and business complexes were staggering.

Very much so. I had a problem with the rather stilted interaction with NPCs, but it's still one of my favorite gaming experiences.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Wolvendancer

That is demonstrably NOT what people are finding. Go and look at posts on the official forums - forums that, it must be said, literally set a new standard for fanboi-ism before the game was released.

Yes they are. I've read plenty of posts where people say they were a thief and at the Kvatch they did more sneaking past baddies and found it to be far easier than going toe-to-toe. People want the best of both worlds. They want to be able to pickpocket and sneak around easily, but then win going toe-to-toe with daedra! If you want that, turn the difficulty down.

But you aren't understanding my basic point re: levelling and loot. A basic concept in game theory is risk/reward. If I'm risking more, I need to be rewarded more. Oblivion doesn't care how much I'm risking or how I'm playing; it only cares about my level. It's like a silly stereotypical version of a communist RPG.

And you aren't understanding that Oblivion is a very different concept. It doesn't care about 'risk/reward' because that leads the game on a more linear path. A dungeon with more risk will be avoided by most people when they are lower levels. It's de facto setting you on a path. I think the main problem is people don't understand the goal of Oblivion, which was also the goal of Morrowind, but not implimented as well there.

People are keen to take about Oblivion being immersive. When the easy and the difficult chests all have the same things in them, when all of the bandits start running around in daedric armor, when I'm the best fighter in the land at Level 6 but wildlife keeps killing me, that's the OPPOSITE of immersion. Oblivion is demonstrably the least immersive 'RPG' I've ever seen.

::shrug:: Hell, I find it to be incredibly immersive in that the gameworld seems alive. The fact that the game can give me a challenge no matter what level I'm on (except when I get really high in levels) is a very nice bonus.

Bethesda has thrown the baby out with the bathwater. They *failed* in Morrowind at creating a decently assymetrically-scaling game world, so they just made everything scale. Levelling is meaningless. Why not just remove levelling altogether if the world levels with you? I think that's a lot more honest.

Morrowind had the same scaling as Oblivion, just ended at much lower levels. Don't you remember how the enemies got tougher as you leveled up in Morrowind, up to Level 10 when there were no new enemies to find?

Leveling is an easy break point where you can distribute skill points. When else would do such a thing?

You obviously have no idea what linearality means.

Linearality = the ability to only travel a straight line while playing the game. Fallout didn't do this. Ever. Neither did Fallout 2. Neither resorted to the cheap gimmicks that Oblivion trots out. Could you always go everywhere? No, but that has nothing to do with linearality.

Not being able to go everywhere has NOTHING to do with linearity?!

I think you obviously have no idea what linearity means. Being to go everywhere is the direct opposite of having to follow in a straight line. And Fallout and Fallout 2 had a little bit of de facto linearity based on some places being more difficult (though it wasn't horrible), meaning you couldn't go there at that point in time, thereby forcing the player into more of a straight line. And Hell, the first main quest in Fallout leads you into a fairly linear strategy, as with a 90 day limit, you aren't going to be taking all that many detours until that one is done.

Is Fallout less linear than Final Fantasy? No doubt. Is it less linear than Planescape:Torment, yes. Is it less linear than Oblivion? Not in a million years.

I did snip a lot of your post. You are either the exact target audience for the game - and seeing as they aimed it at 11 year-olds, that might get you thinking - or you are the kind of person inclined to justify every creative decision someone makes.

Ah wonderful... when you have no argument resort to insults. Kind of sound like the people on the official forums who assume XBox 360 players are 15 year olds when the average age of an XBox 360 owner is actually higher than a PC game player.

If you like the conversation minigame more than actual conversation

The obligatory strawman... check.

if you think that the difference between long blades and short or the actual existance of weapon-types removed from Oblivion is needless complexity, there's not much else I can say.

You have how many skills already? Do we really need to add in 'short blade', 'medium armor', 'kaitana'? At some point you go overboard, and Morrowind was right at that point, if not over. I'm glad Oblivion decided to reign it in a bit.

In the end, you win. The dumbing-down of the PC game audience is almost complete, and it's much more likely we'll be seeing another Oblivion than another Fallout anytime soon.

Zzzzzzz. Its a fun little Chicken Little routine, but I, and most gamers, don't see it.

[jbmagic]

So Oblivion's main quest is linear right?

and the sidequests are non-linear?

My dvd player should come this weekend. I can't wait.

I having fun with morrowind in the meantime.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

So Oblivion's main quest is linear right?

and the sidequests are non-linear?

My dvd player should come this weekend. I can't wait.

I having fun with morrowind in the meantime.

In addition, you don't have to do the main quest if you don't want to. Just go off to the side and do whatever sidequests you want. Basically you do what ever you want to do. Just go into the wilderness and have some fun and forget about Septim's heir if you feel like it.

[jeff061]

The only places people complain in mass are on official boards. That goes for every good game ever made. They are almost without exception the trash heaps of the internet.

Pay no attention to them or the people that cite them.

I mean come on, arguing whether or not Oblivion is an immersive game?

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

In addition, you don't have to do the main quest if you don't want to. Just go off to the side and do whatever sidequests you want. Basically you do what ever you want to do. Just go into the wilderness and have some fun and forget about Septim's heir if you feel like it.

That's pretty much what I did. I haven't done a step of the main quest line (yet). Right now I'm doing the Theives Guild and Mages Guild quests.

[BYU 14]

I am doing a little of everything. Usually one or two side quests for every step of the main quest. Also trying to fit in at least one random dungeon as I travel from place to place. Found a really tough Cave on my way to perform the assasination that grants access to the dark Brotherhood......died three times and finally used my summon Scamp scroll to distract the umber guard long enough for me to lace him with a steady stream of Fireballs. He dropped a full set of Ebony armor, alas I could not carry most of it. Did get a really nice Sword though.

I really like the variety in in length and difficulty of the quests. The DB assasination was one slice from my Blade of Woe as old man Rufio slept....conversely I can't get the Captain of the guards to speak with me about the corruption in the City where the DB guild is located yet.....I can only assume I have to catch him alone or work on my speechcrafting. I like the mix of straightforward, quick quests and ones that require careful planning or thinking through multiple solutions. Keeps it interesting for me.

I am having a hard time finding the Mage guild, it is supposed to by a River, can anyone who has joined give me some direction?

[Bearcat729]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I am doing a little of everything. Usually one or two side quests for every step of the main quest. Also trying to fit in at least one random dungeon as I travel from place to place. Found a really tough Cave on my way to perform the assasination that grants access to the dark Brotherhood......died three times and finally used my summon Scamp scroll to distract the umber guard long enough for me to lace him with a steady stream of Fireballs. He dropped a full set of Ebony armor, alas I could not carry most of it. Did get a really nice Sword though.

I am having a hard time finding the Mage guild, it is supposed to by a River, can anyone who has joined give me some direction?

You killed Umbra? Yeah she's supposed to be really tough, it's actually part of another quest if you didn't want to keep the sword.

Which Mage guild are you looking for? There is one in each city, usually right near the fighters guild in that city. The easiest one to find is the Anvil guild which is right across from the main gate.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Bearcat729

You killed Umbra? Yeah she's supposed to be really tough, it's actually part of another quest if you didn't want to keep the sword.

Which Mage guild are you looking for? There is one in each city, usually right near the fighters guild in that city. The easiest one to find is the Anvil guild which is right across from the main gate.

Yeah it was Umbra...she was super tough. I positioned myself against the Wall there there was a break in the railing. Hit her with a sneak attack with my Bow, then summoned the scamp. She went for it first and I started pelting her with Fireballs, while keeping my shield up. If you are not against a wall she will knock you down and then she lands 2-3 solid blows while you are trying to get up. I barely made it, used all my Mana and had under 15 HP left when she fell.

I will look for the Anvil guild, thanks.

[Wolvendancer]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And you aren't understanding that Oblivion is a very different concept. It doesn't care about 'risk/reward' because that leads the game on a more linear path.

This makes absolutely no sense. Rewarding players for being good players is linear?

Leveling is an easy break point where you can distribute skill points. When else would do such a thing?

Why have skill points?

1. Improvement is only relative to your environment. When everything else levels, there is no reason to level.

2. When the contents of chests level with you, there is no reason to be able to open more difficult chests.

Levelling means nothing in Oblivion. Less than nothing, really, since if you don't level in a specific way you risk falling behind the curve.

I think you obviously have no idea what linearity means. Being to go everywhere is the direct opposite of having to follow in a straight line.

No. Being able to make meaningful choices about how to achieve the goals that the game sets for you or create goals for yourself - that's the opposite of a railroaded gaming experience. Oblivion takes this away from you. Your decisions mean less than nothing, because the entire world is a levelling treadmill. So you get to be Champion of the Arena at Level 6 but can't kill a mountain lion. Witness TEH IMERSION.

You wisely ignored my example, because it obliterates your basic argument. I *can* choose to go to California early in Fallout 2, and I *can* succeed in what I plan, and I *am* rewarded for it in a way that does not break the game.

And Hell, the first main quest in Fallout leads you into a fairly linear strategy, as with a 90 day limit, you aren't going to be taking all that many detours until that one is done.

That feature was removed less a month into release, because people complained (rightly or wrongly) that it interered with their ability to meander. It wasn't a very good design decision. Nothing like the abortions in Oblivion, of course.

Is Fallout less linear than Final Fantasy? No doubt. Is it less linear than Planescape:Torment, yes. Is it less linear than Oblivion? Not in a million years.

You are again limiting 'linearality' to physical space.

Can I build my character how I like in Oblivion as I level? No. I am FORCED by the game into a few fairly specific builds or I risk becoming less viable. Can I solve most of the quests without resorting to violence? Sometimes I can, most often I cannot. Am I able to implement creative solutions to things and recieve reward commensurate with my risk? Never. Ever.

Oblivion is linear in gameplay, but non-linear in where you can physically wander. I leave it to you to decide which is more important.

Ah wonderful... when you have no argument resort to insults. Kind of sound like the people on the official forums who assume XBox 360 players are 15 year olds when the average age of an XBox 360 owner is actually higher than a PC game player.

Read the design documents. They admitted that they were aiming for the least common denominator when creating the game, at every turn choosing the simple, the dumbed-down. I don't blame you for being sad that you fall into that audience, but it doesn't mean you don't.

The obligatory strawman... check.

Stop using words you don't understand. Do you or do you now prefer Oblivion's vacant NPC interaction to the experience of actually having dialog with an NPC in, say, Torment? I may have been wrong in assuming that you do, but I wasn't using a Straw Man argument.

As for a 'Chicken Little' routine, I'll leave you with some parting words from a recent (less than a month old) interview with J. E. Sawyer, RPG designer for not a few of the great RPGs of the past ten years:

------

13. Long time ago, answering a question about the future of RPGs at NMA, you said that they are going "straight to hell" and that "Troika is one of the last pure PC RPG developer in the U.S." How would you answer the same question today?

To my knowledge there are no pure PC RPG developers left outside of very small outfits like Spiderweb Software.

Welcome to hell!

------

Yep.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Wolvendancer

That is demonstrably NOT what people are finding. Go and look at posts on the official forums - forums that, it must be said, literally set a new standard for fanboi-ism before the game was released.

But you aren't understanding my basic point re: levelling and loot. A basic concept in game theory is risk/reward. If I'm risking more, I need to be rewarded more. Oblivion doesn't care how much I'm risking or how I'm playing; it only cares about my level. It's like a silly stereotypical version of a communist RPG.

People are keen to take about Oblivion being immersive. When the easy and the difficult chests all have the same things in them, when all of the bandits start running around in daedric armor, when I'm the best fighter in the land at Level 6 but wildlife keeps killing me, that's the OPPOSITE of immersion. Oblivion is demonstrably the least immersive 'RPG' I've ever seen.

Bethesda has thrown the baby out with the bathwater. They *failed* in Morrowind at creating a decently assymetrically-scaling game world, so they just made everything scale. Levelling is meaningless. Why not just remove levelling altogether if the world levels with you? I think that's a lot more honest.



You obviously have no idea what linearality means.

Linearality = the ability to only travel a straight line while playing the game. Fallout didn't do this. Ever. Neither did Fallout 2. Neither resorted to the cheap gimmicks that Oblivion trots out. Could you always go everywhere? No, but that has nothing to do with linearality.

But let me give you another example. When you start Fallout 2, you can sneak down into California. While there, if you are lucky and can dodge the other nasty encounters, you can sometimes encounter two groups of opposing gangs fighting. By waiting the combat out and helping the side that is losing, you can ensure that both groups die and then loot the corpses. The weapons and equipment gained are worth quite a lot of money and are better than anything you'll see for awhile. Is the game a cakewalk if you manage this? No, the system is better than that. But you are rewarded for your ingenuity and risks taken.

It is very difficult to pull the above off, and you need to have some knowledge, the ability to formulate the plan, and a little luck. Bethedsa messed up the balance in Morrowind so badly that they are deathly afraid to ever reward you as a player... or rather, they reward everything equally.



Better old-fashioned quality than avante garde idiocy, in my opinion. Your milage may vary.

I did snip a lot of your post. You are either the exact target audience for the game - and seeing as they aimed it at 11 year-olds, that might get you thinking - or you are the kind of person inclined to justify every creative decision someone makes. If you like the conversation minigame more than actual conversation, if you think that the difference between long blades and short or the actual existance of weapon-types removed from Oblivion is needless complexity, there's not much else I can say.

In the end, you win. The dumbing-down of the PC game audience is almost complete, and it's much more likely we'll be seeing another Oblivion than another Fallout anytime soon.

you argue rather well.

[jbmagic]

Wolvendancer

so the main quest is linear? there is only one way to do the main quest and complete it?

[sabotai]

I smell troll. Anyone else smell troll?

Read the design documents. They admitted that they were aiming for the least common denominator when creating the game, at every turn choosing the simple, the dumbed-down. I don't blame you for being sad that you fall into that audience, but it doesn't mean you don't.

People have a different opinion about a game than, so you spend a few pages of a thread constantly attacking them. With gems like the one above, I don't think you should get your hopes up if you want anyone around here to take anything you say seriously.

I really don't care if you did read the design docs for Oblivion. Your inability to not act childish towards those with different opinions makes me just not care about anything you have to say. And that, in turn, leads me to just not believe you can be objective when reading design docs that makes designs decision that you personally don't like. You say "they admitted that they were aiming for the least common demoninator". I simply don't believe you. You've given no one reason to believe any "inside information" you claim to have since you've shown nothing but complete disdain for anything you don't agree with. So anything you say is through your "what I like is perfect, what I don't like is terrible" filter.

So all I can think is that this is just an act you are giving, meaning you are a troll. Or you are exactly the type of person I just described. Either way, I doubt we'll be hearing much from you again if you keep it up much longer.

[KWhit]

Well, I am awfully glad that wolfdancer came out of lurking for this.



Not really.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by sabotai

I smell troll. Anyone else smell troll?

Shrug. I'm having more fun with this RPG than any other RPG I've played in the last 2 or 3 years at least. I don't care whatever negative feedback anyone has, I'm going to keep enjoying the game.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Wolvendancer

This makes absolutely no sense. Rewarding players for being good players is linear?

Creating hard and easy areas is linear. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that players are going to go from the easy to hard areas in their gameplay experience. You've pigeonholed them in there.

Why have skill points?

1. Improvement is only relative to your environment. When everything else levels, there is no reason to level.

2. When the contents of chests level with you, there is no reason to be able to open more difficult chests.

Levelling means nothing in Oblivion. Less than nothing, really, since if you don't level in a specific way you risk falling behind the curve.

So you can do more stuff, use cooler stuff, have better spells at your arsenal. And speak for yourself in 'no reason to level'. I always enjoy leveling. I enjoy bettering my character. And I enjoy fighting better opponents that have been recently unlocked by my gaining a level.

You don't need to "play for the win". You can enjoy the journey. Hell, that's the whole point.

No. Being able to make meaningful choices about how to achieve the goals that the game sets for you or create goals for yourself - that's the opposite of a railroaded gaming experience. Oblivion takes this away from you. Your decisions mean less than nothing, because the entire world is a levelling treadmill. So you get to be Champion of the Arena at Level 6 but can't kill a mountain lion. Witness TEH IMERSION.

You wisely ignored my example, because it obliterates your basic argument. I *can* choose to go to California early in Fallout 2, and I *can* succeed in what I plan, and I *am* rewarded for it in a way that does not break the game.

What example, that you can win the Arena, but lose to a Mountain Lion? So what? If that's the way you want to play the game, more power to you. I'm playing it different. That's the whole point! I made the "meaningful choice" to tackle the Arena later, when I'm level 15 or so. If you think your decisions "mean less than nothing", hey whatever man. I enjoy making my decisions in what goals to go after, what quests to take, and how I'm playing the game. So are many people.

Yeah, you can choose to go to go to California early in Fallout 2, but you also run into a much more difficult area. Which most (almost all, really) players will run back into the easy area. You *can* go there, but the difficulty level attempts to force you back to the easy area. Voila, de facto linearity.

That feature was removed less a month into release, because people complained (rightly or wrongly) that it interered with their ability to meander. It wasn't a very good design decision. Nothing like the abortions in Oblivion, of course.

Actually it WAS a good design decision for the game. I mean it forces some urgency in the early game. Your vault needed its water. They had 90 days. You had to go get it in 90 days. It worked fairly well. It wasn't conducive to TES like non-linearity, but then again, it didn't mean to go that far, seeing as how they did have hard and easy areas.

You are again limiting 'linearality' to physical space.

Can I build my character how I like in Oblivion as I level? No. I am FORCED by the game into a few fairly specific builds or I risk becoming less viable. Can I solve most of the quests without resorting to violence? Sometimes I can, most often I cannot. Am I able to implement creative solutions to things and recieve reward commensurate with my risk? Never. Ever.

Oblivion is linear in gameplay, but non-linear in where you can physically wander. I leave it to you to decide which is more important.

Of course the people who have sneaked or used magic in order to get around combat never existed? Sure, Oblivion (and Morrowind) are very, very heavy in combat. When you have demons from another plane, I don't think you can reason with them.

Oblivion, like plenty of other RPGs (Wizardry series comes to mind), stress the combat. You need to be good at combat to do well, sure. But in Oblivion, you can be good in other skills and have fun in your own way. But, you have to have combat skills.

Like I pointed out, it is non-linear in the aspect that you can go anywhere and do anything without even a de facto linearity. It is not a tradtional RPG.

Read the design documents. They admitted that they were aiming for the least common denominator when creating the game, at every turn choosing the simple, the dumbed-down. I don't blame you for being sad that you fall into that audience, but it doesn't mean you don't.

Cite?

I have a feeling they said they wanted to simplify the interface and make it acceptable to the mainstream and you've twisted the words in that way.

Stop using words you don't understand. Do you or do you now prefer Oblivion's vacant NPC interaction to the experience of actually having dialog with an NPC in, say, Torment? I may have been wrong in assuming that you do, but I wasn't using a Straw Man argument.

Of course you were using a strawman. You said X was my position when I said nothing of the sort. I said that for a game the scope of Oblivion, its dialogue system works for it. If Torment's dialogue was applied to the number of NPCs in Oblivion, the game would take 2 years to finish! I never expressed preference at all, yet you thought you'd add it in for me.

13. Long time ago, answering a question about the future of RPGs at NMA, you said that they are going "straight to hell" and that "Troika is one of the last pure PC RPG developer in the U.S." How would you answer the same question today?

To my knowledge there are no pure PC RPG developers left outside of very small outfits like Spiderweb Software.

While cute, I'm reminded of the curmudgeons who talk about walking to school in the snow both ways. Troika's Arcanum was not that good of a game. Both Morrowind and Oblivion have done some great things with PC RPGs. People enjoy Neverwinter Nights, which has been refered to as the closest thing to pen-and-paper RPGing on the computer ever. How about Gothic II? KOTOR (at least I)?

Basically, you have to evolve or die in the gaming market. You can release the same game a few times, but people will move away from it if you do the same thing too much. Apparently curmudgeon RPG guy wants it to be Baldur's Gate and Fallout over and over again (even when Icewind Dale came out it was getting to be too much).

Maybe this is how computer RPGs died the first time around. Curmudgeons with stale ideas wanting to continue those stale ideas while decrying people doing something new.

[Eaglesfan27]

I stayed up MUCH too late playing this tonight. Oh well, I've done 4 hours of sleep before..

[Qwikshot]

I am enjoying the game too, finally joined the Dark Brotherhood last night and popped into their safe house.

[Qwikshot]

I don't think you can compare Fallout to TES, two very different structured RPGs.

Even games like Balder's Gate and Planescape (which was a great game), were linear in structure. I believe Oblivion to be far more linear than Morrowind.

Case in point is the lack of guilds to join, to my knowledge, you can join the Fighters, Mages, Brotherhood, and Thieves as the biggies...Morrowind you could be a Pilgrim, Imperial, and some other guilds as well, you could just search Morrowind for shrines.

I think there is less freeform, but I always believed the main quest to be very linear.

I like the environment though, why does everything have to be bustling, maybe towns and cities aren't as vibrantly populated but you are a stranger in a strange land.

Perhaps what I do miss is when I did succeed in breaking into the vaults in Morrowind and getting all that awesome equipment, but I don't feel that I'm rushing to get to the end (like Balder's).

[klayman]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

I stayed up MUCH too late playing this tonight. Oh well, I've done 4 hours of sleep before..

I'm glad you're not my doctor

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by klayman

I'm glad you're not my doctor

ditto

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by klayman

I'm glad you're not my doctor

LOL. Of course, many doctors are sleep deprived from being on call (lots of Attendings moonlight and take call at various places.) However, I'm very glad I have a light clinic day today. I'll catch up on sleep tonight (and probably play too late the next night.)

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

LOL. Of course, many doctors are sleep deprived from being on call (lots of Attendings moonlight and take call at various places.) However, I'm very glad I have a light clinic day today. I'll catch up on sleep tonight (and probably play too late the next night.)

i'll give you one thing - i respect your opinion and i look forward to your game reviews. too bad there weren't any cool MMORPGs out there or perhaps we could get a nice bunch of us here to play every now and then.

[Godzilla Blitz]

I haven't had much time to play lately, but I am struggling with some of the monster & loot leveling design decisions that have been incorporated into the game, and wonder if I'll find them more of a turnoff when I get to higher levels.

I do also think that the game was designed to allow any type of player to play any way they want, and along those lines many of the features seem softened to appeal to a mass/console audience. I wouldn't call this "dumbed down", rather aimed towards including the casual game player in the target market. Along these lines, I think the game will appeal to a huge audience, be a massive success, and in general improve the CRPG future as a whole.

The negative side effect of this freedom is that it does create a sense of disconnect to elements of the game. When I cleared my first Oblivion gate as a low-level character, I kept thinking to myself that there is no way that I should be able to do this given my level: a whole town got wiped out, a force of highly trained guards is struggling to save the survivors, and I waltz in there with my rusty iron sword by myself and close the gate?

The nice thing about the PC game, however, is that mods can fix/modify the game for a player that doesn't like many of the inherent design decisions. I'm intending to play through the game once as it is, then try it again with some of the loot/leveling mods added.

Also, while I tend to agree that some of the design decisions might be a bit dubious, there are so many elements of this game that are simply fantastic. The things they got right in this game so far outweigh the things they got wrong. Quests, visuals, combat, and the gritty, realistic feeling to the game just suck you right in. I also prefer skills-based character development to experienced-based systems, and for me the character development in the game is deep and addictive.

Lately, I have been amazed by the variety and quality of the quests. A half dozen of the dozen or so quests I've completed have been well written, well designed, and quite creative. I played for a half hour yesterday and did the Dreamworld quest. Great stuff. The game takes the concept of "quest" to such a high level.

So the bottom line for me is that the game's weaknesses become more evident as I play more, but the strong points are so good that I can't stop playing.

[Eilim]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

I haven't had much time to play lately, but I am struggling with some of the monster & loot leveling design decisions that have been incorporated into the game, and wonder if I'll find them more of a turnoff when I get to higher levels.

I do also think that the game was designed to allow any type of player to play any way they want, and along those lines many of the features seem softened to appeal to a mass/console audience. I wouldn't call this "dumbed down", rather aimed towards including the casual game player in the target market. Along these lines, I think the game will appeal to a huge audience, be a massive success, and in general improve the CRPG future as a whole.

The negative side effect of this freedom is that it does create a sense of disconnect to elements of the game. When I cleared my first Oblivion gate as a low-level character, I kept thinking to myself that there is no way that I should be able to do this given my level: a whole town got wiped out, a force of highly trained guards is struggling to save the survivors, and I waltz in there with my rusty iron sword by myself and close the gate?

The nice thing about the PC game, however, is that mods can fix/modify the game for a player that doesn't like many of the inherent design decisions. I'm intending to play through the game once as it is, then try it again with some of the loot/leveling mods added.

Also, while I tend to agree that some of the design decisions might be a bit dubious, there are so many elements of this game that are simply fantastic. The things they got right in this game so far outweigh the things they got wrong. Quests, visuals, combat, and the gritty, realistic feeling to the game just suck you right in. I also prefer skills-based character development to experienced-based systems, and for me the character development in the game is deep and addictive.

Lately, I have been amazed by the variety and quality of the quests. A half dozen of the dozen or so quests I've completed have been well written, well designed, and quite creative. I played for a half hour yesterday and did the Dreamworld quest. Great stuff. The game takes the concept of "quest" to such a high level.

So the bottom line for me is that the game's weaknesses become more evident as I play more, but the strong points are so good that I can't stop playing.

I find myself pretty much of the same opinion. While I think I let developers off the hook a bit too easy, I always view games that come with toolkits as two seperate entities.. The engine, and the story. Personally I think the Oblivion engine rocks, and even like that the use of leveled scaling of loot/critters is worked right into the creation tools. The story/world on the other hand, while good... Well, lets just say I agree with alot of Wolvendancer's opinions on its implementation.

It's not a big deal to me though.. I'm already working with some friends working out interesting new areas, npcs, and quests, some tied into the existing story arcs and some new. While we plan on using scaling in some areas, we'll be going mainly with more plotted out, set encounters and progressions.


I'm actually more annoyed over the whole charging for "plugins" thing. While I'm not too upset for them making a few bucks adding content (well I am, but thats because I'm a cheap prick.) , I find myself more worried they won't give us modders any help when it comes to adding custom content (models) as it will most likely cut into their possible profits.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Originally Posted by Eilim

I find myself more worried they won't give us modders any help when it comes to adding custom content (models) as it will most likely cut into their possible profits.

Excellent point, and I agree completely. This is a big issue for me. I heard yesterday that there are licensing negotiations/discussions going on regarding this issue. Not sure what that means, but to me it's critical that they give the modders access to a full set of modeling tools. I really hope they do the right thing here.

It would be shortsighted to handicap the modders, the backlash would be huge, and the impact on the game's longevity would be significant.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

Also, while I tend to agree that some of the design decisions might be a bit dubious, there are so many elements of this game that are simply fantastic. The things they got right in this game so far outweigh the things they got wrong. Quests, visuals, combat, and the gritty, realistic feeling to the game just suck you right in. I also prefer skills-based character development to experienced-based systems, and for me the character development in the game is deep and addictive.

Indeed. No game is perfect (not even Fallout, my favorite RPG of all time... which was laden with bugs and sometimes the turn based combat got tedious). The best you can say is that the good outweighs the bad and in this case I think it does. Especially when you consider what the end goal is in TES games.

Originally Posted by Eilim

I'm actually more annoyed over the whole charging for "plugins" thing. While I'm not too upset for them making a few bucks adding content (well I am, but thats because I'm a cheap prick.) , I find myself more worried they won't give us modders any help when it comes to adding custom content (models) as it will most likely cut into their possible profits.

I find it silly myself. It makes no sense, but whatever. As for giving the modders help, I think the TES Construction Set is all the help modders need! It's very powerful.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by klayman

I'm glad you're not my doctor

"It was the strangest thing, officer -- during the surgery, the doctor would take one wild slice at the patient, then side-step around the room in a circle for 30 seconds, drink something out of a vial, then charge back in and start hacking again."

[Godzilla Blitz]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I think the TES Construction Set is all the help modders need! It's very powerful.

I'm guessing Eilim understands this better than I do, so he can chime in and correct anything I've gotten mixed up, but my understanding is that modders need some modeling skin information (files?) or something like that in order to be able to add monsters, creatures, and skins to the game. This was made available to modders a few weeks after the release of Morrowind, and that's what led to the development of the better faces and bodies, different monsters, etc.

If I understand things correctly, if Bethesda doesn't do the same for Oblivion, it will be hard (impossible?) for modders to add new textures to the game.

[Airhog]

So, I restarted the game, after playing just past the first gate. I realized that I wasnt having fun being stealthy, and I kept trying to be bashy, so I figured I would start over and play a bashy character.

I took a different approach with this character. All of the major skills are skills I do not use. This may seem counter intuitive, but it actually is a good idea. I can control when I level now, and focus on ensuring that I get +5 bonuses in the categories that I choose. I plan to max my endurance first, and my strength second. Maxxing your endurance early is the key. since those hitpoints will compound every time you level up. My plan after that is to balance out the rest of my stats, since the only other stat I need is agility.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Airhog

So, I restarted the game, after playing just past the first gate. I realized that I wasnt having fun being stealthy, and I kept trying to be bashy, so I figured I would start over and play a bashy character.

I took a different approach with this character. All of the major skills are skills I do not use. This may seem counter intuitive, but it actually is a good idea. I can control when I level now, and focus on ensuring that I get +5 bonuses in the categories that I choose. I plan to max my endurance first, and my strength second. Maxxing your endurance early is the key. since those hitpoints will compound every time you level up. My plan after that is to balance out the rest of my stats, since the only other stat I need is agility.

Isn't that kind of going out of your way to ensure the game isn't a challenge by say level 10ish? The people that have a problem with how you level are idiots. Most of my leveling has come from Illusion.

Would you think having Illusion 30+ points higher than any other skill would be a good idea? Well it is a great idea b/c I actually use Illusion magic 90% of the time between paralyze, silence, and invisablity anyone can be defeated easily.

With that said I'm interested in seeing how your game plays out. My money is that you will have a challenge for about the first 5 levels, then by say level 10 or so you will start to notice yourself getting insanely better than your enemies.

[sabotai]

I got into the Arcane University late last night and today got around to enchanting some stuff.

Enchanted two of my armor pieces with Agility (+7 to chest, +6 to boots). So, with my birthsign, I have +23 to Agility.

And something I tried out has turned out extremely well. I enchanted a sword with Soul Trap. All you have to do is enchant it with the minimum settings (10 ft. area, 1 sec duration). Now I don't have to worry about casting Soul Trap to fill my soul stones. I just use my "Soul Trap Longsword" and it's casted for me when I strike.

You do go through the uses pretty quickly, but it's basically using a soul stone to recharge the sword for every 4 or 5 I fill.

[Airhog]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Isn't that kind of going out of your way to ensure the game isn't a challenge by say level 10ish? The people that have a problem with how you level are idiots. Most of my leveling has come from Illusion.

Would you think having Illusion 30+ points higher than any other skill would be a good idea? Well it is a great idea b/c I actually use Illusion magic 90% of the time between paralyze, silence, and invisablity anyone can be defeated easily.

With that said I'm interested in seeing how your game plays out. My money is that you will have a challenge for about the first 5 levels, then by say level 10 or so you will start to notice yourself getting insanely better than your enemies.

Yeah, but thats kinda the point. Right now the slider for difficulty is in the middle. But if the game gets too easy, I will just crank it up. I just enjoy being able to control my leveling process. And if you pick skills that you use alot as your primaries, you have no control over it. There is no reason why you cannot have a character that is good at most everything.

[Godzilla Blitz]

I'm doing a similar thing as Airhog right now in that I've tried to make my unused skills my majors:

Hand to Hand
Illusion
Alteration
Mysticism
Mercantile
Security
Conjuration

I'm really enjoying it. I'm up to level 6 now, but I've been playing this character for about 20 hours.

Some observations:
1. I was worried that it would make the game too easy, but conversely, it hasn't (so far). The game has been quite challenging early on. I've been doing a lot of fighting with skills that are in the 5-20 range. This makes it quite hard to win fights, and often enough I've had to resort to some major skills (hand to hand, conjuration) to get me through some tough spots.

2. I really enjoy character development, so one of my goals with this character has been to try and build up every skill. I've now got all except four of the character's skills in the apprentice range. Only one skill is journeyman level. I'm trying now to get the remaining four novice skills (block, athleticism, acrobatics, heavy armor) to apprentice level.

3. The character is fun because I can do a little bit of everything: magic, melee, theivery.

4. I think Airhog hits it on the head when he uses the word "control". Choosing a character like this allows you to choose when you level. I think this character would get too easy if I let the minor skills surpass the major skills, but this doesn't have to happen if I don't let it, and even after this amount of play, the minor skills lag behind the majors significantly (except for light armor).

5. I haven't been able to get all +5's even on one level up, and I'm not focusing on that aspect of character development. Mostly I've been playing for a while, then leveling up when I want to see different equipment and monsters. Most of my level ups have probably been +4, +4, +3.