07-15-2005, 08:53 AM | #401 | |
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You do this in thinking that you could change anyone's mind??? panerd is right, I believe. People love to play up to the extremes because it gives them an identity or more accurately, an enemy. |
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07-15-2005, 08:58 AM | #402 | ||
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07-15-2005, 09:02 AM | #403 |
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I've mostly stayed out of this, having missed much of the controversy last week, but now that I think I'm caught up, I have two points:
1) When Valerie Plame was initially exposed, my reaction then was "who the heck would do such a thing?" I don't care what the law says, you don't publically name CIA operatives to the press. I agree that there can be mitigating circumstances if it was public knowledge, but if it was then wouldn't reporters have known? If Rove had just said "Wilson's wife recommended him", I'd have nothing negative to say about Rove. But if he really did say something along the lines of "Wilson's wife, a CIA employee, recommended him", I really think he's in the wrong. You just don't expose these people, period. I think people in government are already loose with classified info, and they need to be much more careful. Rove isn't the first to let loose with something he shouldn't (who was the official that was taking classified stuff home to his personal computer a few years back?), and he won't be the last. But I don't like him (and whatever other source(s) were used for this) doing it here. 2) I'm still not sure how the Administration should have handled Wilson, however. His getting the job sure seems like typical Clinton-esque politics (I still think Clinton was slimier than Bush in these types of games, one of the best, although I know they all play them to a certain extent). You have a Clinton appointee being sent to gather intelligence on a controversial point being used for planning a war, getting that job through his wife and back channels, misrepresenting the data he gathered, slanting it towards Bush's opponents, and claiming the Administration itself sent him to gather the info to help bolster the credibility of his "reports". How is the Administration supposed to counter this, when a key aspect of his motiviation is how he got the job in the first place? I think the right answer here is that Rove should have just said "Wilson's wife got him the job, he was not our choice" and let the reporters follow her trail, especially given how public she seems to have been. So I think Rove's mistake was being too open with classified info, and while that seems like he could have made a minor mistake, there is no such thing as a "minor mistake" with classified data. He's in a position of key responsibility, so he's supposed to be more careful. Wilson and Plame are just as bad as Rove when it comes to the political games that everyone wants to hang Rove over. Getting a Bush opponent to go gather key intelligence, slanting that intelligences, and then lying about why he was sent to help bolster his credibility sure destroys all semblance of credibility in my eyes. It's like an episode of Judge Judy or The Peoples' Court, where you think both sides are idiots.
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07-15-2005, 09:18 AM | #404 |
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I'm close to politically retarded but why is it important how Wilson got the job? If the administration requires that only a hand-picked person gather intelligence like this, doesn't that back up Wilson's original claim that the administration picked and chose among available intelligence to back their claim for war?
The entire issue along with the "Wilson is a liar" claim seems like little more than a Republican effort to confuse the issue. |
07-15-2005, 09:48 AM | #405 | |
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thats been my point for awhile...we agree. Rove and the pols up there need to have a higher moral standard...and code of conduct.
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07-15-2005, 09:55 AM | #406 | |
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To me it's because he exaggerated / lied about the claims in his report. I wouldn't care how he got it, had he just come out with the facts (i.e., done a good job). But right now it smacks of a setup, given how he handled things after he got back.
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07-15-2005, 11:31 AM | #407 | |
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All of them. Both parties. I agree. Things have been going downhill for quite some time. |
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07-15-2005, 11:37 AM | #408 | |
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yup, im an equal opportunity lambaster...and unlike Arles, I will and can say that.
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07-15-2005, 02:55 PM | #409 | |
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07-15-2005, 03:21 PM | #410 | |
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no, i apologize. I completely undertsand your point of view. You feel that all politicians are liars, and anyone involved are rpobably too and so you accept some deception as being status quo. From there you stand by your right sided morals and will not accept any truisms unless they come from the horse's mouth, although recently you havn't applied that to both sides equally. Is that about right?
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07-15-2005, 04:06 PM | #411 | ||||
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07-15-2005, 04:27 PM | #412 |
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i respect Dean's candor, but think hes a quack. I like Lieberman's ideals and willingness to switch sides. I like Flip-flopping if its substantiated by "new" info.
When Its all said and done, I like (b)illary and McCain. I guess but Ill admit...I dont have much knowledge of the newer or smaller pols.
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07-15-2005, 06:38 PM | #413 |
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I can see Lieberman, but I think you are missing a lot on McCain. Read back on all the shady deals he's made with the telecommunications industry. He is no more "honest" than any other sentator. In fact, he's been caught on lies regarding bills more than once in public (read his Tim Russert script in 99 for the worst of them).
And that's not even looking into his action during the Charles Keating fiasco. For those of you unaware of this, here's a link: http://slate.msn.com/id/1004633/ Last edited by Arles : 07-15-2005 at 06:44 PM. |
07-15-2005, 08:15 PM | #414 |
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More comes out on Rove. Link and excerpt:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050716/...MzBHNlYwM3MDM- WASHINGTON - After mentioning a CIA operative to a reporter, Bush confidant Karl Rove alerted the president's No. 2 security adviser about the interview and said he tried to steer the journalist away from allegations the operative's husband was making about faulty Iraq intelligence. The July 11, 2003, e-mail between Rove and then-Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley is the first showing an intelligence official knew Rove had talked to Matthew Cooper just days before the Time magazine reporter wrote an article identifying Valerie Plame as a CIA officer. "I didn't take the bait," Rove wrote in an e-mail obtained by The Associated Press, recounting how Cooper tried to question him about whether President Bush had been hurt by the new allegations. The White House turned the e-mail over to prosecutors, and Rove testified to a grand jury about it last year. This would imho tend to support Rove's claim that he was not trying to 'out' Plame. Of course there are still several questions here. Who were the other sources? Did Rove or anyone commit perjury. But I think when you start adding things up, it appears Rove and the White House have believed for some time that Rove will not be charged with a crime. Perhaps they have been keeping quiet because they knew the info that has come out today would surface. Of course another question would be who is leaking all this info. |
07-18-2005, 08:33 AM | #415 |
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Cooper Learned of CIA Wife From Rove Call
By PETE YOST, Associated Press Writer 6 minutes ago WASHINGTON - Time magazine's Matthew Cooper says a 2003 phone call with White House political adviser Karl Rove was the first he heard about the wife of Bush administration critic Joseph Wilson apparently working for the CIA. ADVERTISEMENT Giving a first-person account of his role in a case that nearly landed him in jail, the reporter recalled that Rove told him, "I've already said too much" after revealing that the wife of the former ambassador apparently was with the CIA. Cooper speculated in the piece, released Sunday, that Rove could have been "worried about being indiscreet, or it could have meant he was late for a meeting or something else." "I don't know, but that signoff has been in my memory for two years," Cooper wrote. The White House and Rove's lawyer have stressed that Rove never mentioned Valerie Plame, Wilson's wife, by name. At issue in a federal grand jury investigation into whether someone in the Bush administration violated a federal statute by publicly disclosing the identity of Plame as a CIA operative. Cooper said the 2003 phone call with Rove was the first time he had heard anything about Wilson's wife. The White House had insisted for nearly two years that neither Rove nor Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, Lewis Libby, had any connection with the leak of Plame's name. For the last two weeks, however, it has steadfastly declined to comment on the case, citing the ongoing Fitzgerald probe. It took the same tack Sunday, as spokesman David Almacy declined specifically to comment about Libby, citing an independent counsel's ongoing investigation of the case. Writing an account of a conversation he had with Libby, Cooper said, "Libby replied, 'Yeah, I've heard that too' or words to that effect" when he asked if Libby had heard anything about Wilson's wife sending her husband to Africa to investigate the possible sale of uranium to Iraq for nuclear weapons. As part of special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald's criminal probe of the identity leak, Cooper testified about his conversation with Libby in a deposition at his lawyer's office in August 2004. Libby, as Rove did this month, provided a specific waiver of confidentiality. In a grand jury appearance last Wednesday, Cooper gave his account of what Rove told him. Cooper also said there may have been other government officials who were sources for his article. Time posted "A War on Wilson?" on its Web site on July 17, 2003. In an effort to quell a chorus of calls to fire Rove, Republicans said Sunday that he first learned about Plame's identity from the news media. "The information exonerates and vindicates, it does not implicate" Rove, Republican Party chairman Ken Mehlman said on NBC's "Meet the Press." "Folks involved in this, frankly, owe Karl Rove an apology." There were no takers. The White House's assurance in 2003 that Rove was not involved in the leak of the CIA officer's identity "was a lie" and Rove's credibility "is in shreds," said John Podesta, who was chief of staff in the Clinton White House. It is unclear whether a journalist first revealed the information to Rove, as Mehlman said. A lawyer familiar with Rove's grand jury testimony said Rove learned about the CIA officer either from the media or from someone in government who said the information came from a journalist. The lawyer spoke on condition of anonymity because the federal investigation is continuing. Appearing on CBS' "Face the Nation," Wilson said, "I believe that using the West Wing of the White House to be engaged in a smear campaign is an outrageous abuse of power." The CIA sent Wilson to check out intelligence that the government of Niger had a deal for the sale of yellowcake uranium to Iraq. Wilson did not find that such a deal took place. Five days before Cooper's conversation with Rove, an op-ed piece by Wilson had appeared in The New York Times suggesting the Bush administration had manipulated prewar intelligence to justify an invasion of Iraq. In 2003, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the idea that Rove was involved in leaking information about Wilson's wife was "ridiculous." "There's no evidence that (Rove has) done anything criminally wrong," Sen. Lindsey Graham (news, bio, voting record), R-S.C., said on CBS. He said the American people are taking the controversy "for what it is — politics."
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07-18-2005, 10:38 AM | #416 |
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And what Cooper actually said to Russert on Meet the Press:
MR. RUSSERT: The piece that you finally ran in Time magazine on July 17th, it says, "And some government officials have noted to Time in interviews, (as well as to syndicated columnist Robert Novak) that Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, is a CIA official who monitors the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. These officials have suggested that she was involved in her husband's being dispatched to Niger..." "Some government officials"--That is Rove and Libby? MR. COOPER: Yes, those were among the sources for that, yeah. MR. RUSSERT: Are there more? MR. COOPER: I don't want to get into it, but it's possible. MR. RUSSERT: Have you told the grand jury about that? MR. COOPER: The grand jury knows what I know, yes. MR. RUSSERT: That there may have been more sources? MR. COOPER: Yes. And speculation by one columnist that Rove may not be the target of the investigation at all. Link and excerpt: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05198/538809.stm Liberals want Rove's scalp. But the revelation Friday (if true) that Rove learned of Plame's occupation from a journalist makes it most unlikely that he could prosecuted successfully under the Identities Act. Maybe Rove -- or someone else -- lied to the grand jury. Or maybe Fitzgerald is investigating a different crime. What if someone in the CIA was leaking classified information to influence the 2004 election? Uncovering a crime like that would be worthy of Inspector Javert's doggedness. I suspect the biggest shoe in this case has yet to drop, and liberal journalists won't be happy when it does. Of course it is all just speculation until the results of the investigation become public. |
07-18-2005, 10:59 AM | #417 |
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I was doing some research on the Rove-Plame story and came across this little tidbit. I don't remember hearing about it when it happened and wonder if anyone has heard if an investigation was launched, what it concluded, or if it still ongoing?
Justice Asked to Probe Spy Satellite Leak Senators Slam Mystery Spy Project Last edited by SFL Cat : 07-18-2005 at 11:06 AM. |
07-18-2005, 11:05 AM | #418 | |
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07-18-2005, 11:09 AM | #419 | |
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That's kind of like saying..."yes my story is true, but all the evidence I'm using to prove it's true is based on exaggerations or lies." |
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07-18-2005, 01:45 PM | #420 | |
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Here's a very interesting story explaining how briefs filed by the media (to keep reporters out of jail) explain how Plame was "outed" twice before Novak or Cooper ever entered the picture:
http://www.nationalreview.com/mccart...0507180801.asp Quote:
Last edited by Arles : 07-18-2005 at 01:46 PM. |
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07-18-2005, 01:57 PM | #421 | |
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Lol. I was just getting ready to post that. Very interesting story. And I think it is a very interesting point that the very media that filed that brief has neglected to bring up those points in reporting on the controversy. Of course the left will now fall back onto their fallback positions: 1. Rove committed perjury. (Apparently not; he seems to have covered himself very well, like the wily and ruthless political hack he is.) 2. Someone else is the initial leaker, like VP chief of staff Libby. (Not nearly as interesting to the left since that will not lead to Rove's lynching, and, as more info comes out, it appears that the initial 'leak' from the White House apparently was not the initial leak at all.) 3. Bush said he would get rid of the leakers. (Good point. Bush has now qualified that, saying he will get rid of anyone who committed a crime. That of course makes Bush look really wishy-washy imo.) 4. Rove is a bad man even if he did nothing wrong here. (I will concede that point, lol.) |
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07-18-2005, 01:59 PM | #422 | |
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Well, actually he has been discredited by multiple sources. And, no, I'm not going to provide those because I think this has been discussed over and over again, even in this thread. |
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07-18-2005, 02:07 PM | #423 | |
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07-18-2005, 02:13 PM | #424 | |
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07-18-2005, 02:18 PM | #425 |
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http://www.nationalreview.com/levin/...0507181123.asp
Here is another view on Wilson's lies. And one the real culprit in this whole matter. |
07-18-2005, 02:22 PM | #426 | |
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my point exactly....all of this stuff is garbage. Rove should've never been a link in the chain. People with that kind of power need to have a higher moral aptitude IMO.
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07-18-2005, 02:32 PM | #427 | |
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07-18-2005, 02:37 PM | #428 | |
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07-18-2005, 03:00 PM | #429 | |||
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http://www.bakerlaw.com/files/tbl_s1...%20(Final).PDF Quote:
And here's the Times story the media referenced to show that Plame had already been outed: http://washingtontimes.com/national/...5439-4033r.htm Quote:
Last edited by Arles : 07-18-2005 at 03:13 PM. |
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07-18-2005, 03:04 PM | #430 | |
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Basically what Wilson reported to the CIA appears to have all been correct. However, he said things before the Senate Select Committee that appear to have been confused and/or wrong (in particular what he knew about the forged memo at the time of his trip), therefore the apparent line is that he has been discredited, whatever that means. Critically, nothing he said in his famous NYT "What I Didn't Find In Africa" op-ed has been refuted or appears to be subject to challenge. |
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07-18-2005, 03:36 PM | #431 | ||
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Also, Rove himself is using the defense that he didn't know she was covert. The whole argument made by the article is inane. It tried to make the argument that Plame was already outted, when nobody seems to know she was outed. The two basic defenses for Rove are that 'everybody knew she was covert' and 'nobody knew she was covert'. Interesting doublethink. |
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07-18-2005, 03:47 PM | #432 | ||||||
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07-18-2005, 04:03 PM | #433 | ||||
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And inconsequential enough to not allow them to avoid jail time. Quote:
Arles, regardless of whether or not a crime has been committed, would you agree that what Rove did was grade A douchebaggery? |
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07-18-2005, 04:06 PM | #434 | |
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For my sake, I just wanted to clarify....youre okay with Rove's behavior even if no law was broken?
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07-18-2005, 04:43 PM | #435 | |
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I would be much more upset with the initial leaker to Novak if: A. Plame had not acted politically to get her husband his position by pulling strings in the CIA. B. Plame was actually working as a covert operative when the comments were made. As it is now, I don't see much meat to this story. Essentially, we are looking to get all worked up over some leaker (to Novak) that mentioned a CIA agent who used her position to get her husband a cushy job and who hadn't been covert in practice since 1997. I think a yawn is in order. Last edited by Arles : 07-18-2005 at 04:44 PM. |
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07-18-2005, 05:03 PM | #436 | |
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Well, first, I didn't put the blame on Plame. I just said this was another view on Wilson's lies. And Wilson did lie, several times. Sure the WH wanted to slime a political opponent. That is the way both parties work these days. Rove is an expert at it, but not moreso than many on the Democratic Party side. It is a shame. And it is becomng clear from the evidence that both Wilson and Plame were not above political motivation themselves. |
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07-18-2005, 05:23 PM | #437 | |
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07-18-2005, 06:47 PM | #438 | |
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I think the CIA already took care of that when they blew her cover, twice. |
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07-18-2005, 07:21 PM | #439 | |
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07-18-2005, 07:59 PM | #440 | |
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Wow. Again, dude, you give the Democratic Party waaaay too much credit. They couldn't hold Rove's jock when it comes to sliming. They aren't even playing the same freakin' sport. I really wish the Democratic Party was half as competent and effective as you seem to believe they are. I really, really do.
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07-18-2005, 08:01 PM | #441 |
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Tme to fry FAT BOY!!!
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07-18-2005, 08:19 PM | #442 | |
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I have been a little hot latel... oh. you meant Rove. Yeah, I'd be shocked if he's committed a crime. As for Democratic asshattery, or sliminess (in response to HB)... you're right. The Democrats are pretty amateur. Instead of using anonymous sourcing to get the truth about a story into the press (and in the process perhaps criminally "out" a CIA employee), they'll just compare American troops at Gitmo to Nazis. Amateurs.
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07-18-2005, 08:25 PM | #443 | |
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07-18-2005, 08:33 PM | #444 | |
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Very amature. It's so pathetic and clumsy. Hell, even people on the internet know that bringing out Hitler or Nazis is just stupid and pretty much ends whatever point you're trying to make. They lack any organization and skills besides ineffectual whining.
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07-18-2005, 09:14 PM | #445 | |
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07-18-2005, 09:18 PM | #446 | |
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Well, Rove may be the master of attack politics, but the Clinton administration was superb at it. James Carville might rival Rove at the art of sliming. Paul Begala is still at it. Link and excerpt: http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewPolitics...20050715a.html (CNSNews.com) - Young liberals this week flocked to the nation's capital to hear, among other things, liberal television pundit and Democrat political strategist Paul Begala accuse Republicans of wanting to kill him and his children to preserve tax cuts for the rich. Begala was featured at the first-ever Campus Progress National Student Conference, which was designed to provide campus liberals with the tools necessary to fight the conservative movement. The event also drew former President Bill Clinton, for whom Begala once worked as an advisor. A panel discussion entitled "Winning the War of Ideas" centered on topics discussed in the book "What's the Matter with Kansas" by Thomas Frank and detailed the challenges that Democrats face in persuading voters in the American heartland and elsewhere to embrace their agenda and support their candidates. Begala's presence on the panel created a stir when he declared that Republicans had "done a p***-poor job of defending" the U.S. Republicans, he said, "want to kill us. "I was driving past the Pentagon when that plane hit" on Sept. 11, 2001. "I had friends on that plane; this is deadly serious to me," Begala said. "They want to kill me and my children if they can. But if they just kill me and not my children, they want my children to be comforted -- that while they didn't protect me because they cut my taxes, my children won't have to pay any money on the money they inherit," Begala said. "That is bulls*** national defense, and we should say that.".... |
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07-18-2005, 09:20 PM | #447 | |
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I'm sorry to hear you believe that. I have a particular affinity for the young American soldiers fighting for our country and often placed in difficult situations. It is my belief that they are not Nazis and that the comparison was one of the most odious and dishonorable things -- speaking of sliming -- spoken by an American Congressman in recent history. Last edited by JW : 07-18-2005 at 09:24 PM. |
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07-18-2005, 09:23 PM | #448 | |
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The Clinton administration was very good at attack politics. Don't kid yourself. Carville from Louisiana is a master. Rove may be better. It is really sad. I'm just happy to say I didn't vote for Bush or Gore or Bush or Kerry. I wasted my vote, but I chose not to affirm either major party, because I believe both parties are more interested in partisan political gain than in America's security and future. |
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07-18-2005, 09:25 PM | #449 | |
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I'm sure what he really meant is that all soldiers fighting for America are Nazis and not that a few might have displayed personality traits that we associate with Nazis at some point. SI
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07-18-2005, 09:31 PM | #450 | |
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