Orlando: Worst Mass Shooting In US History

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

So, to be fair, I dont know who would be a global or regional spokesman. But I suppose there has to be some hierarchy beyond the leader of a 100 man mosque, right?

There are leaders who are more than a '100 man mosque' - these are the gentlemen who are trotted out by the press, but there is no overarching leader.

I read the major text of several religions over a 2 year period, including the Quran. For that reason I feel somewhat justified in speaking to its teachings

Its also worth noting that for every horrible teaching/statement in the Quran the bible generally has an equally horrific equivalent - these however are rationalized away quietly by people in the main because well its acceptable and normal to be a Christian where as we don't understand these other folk with their strange beliefs ...

(if you want I'd be happy to trade passages with you, despite being a heathen my (first) step father was a former clergy man and I've done a fair few bible studies in my time)

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

There are leaders who are more than a '100 man mosque' - these are the gentlemen who are trotted out by the press, but there is no overarching leader.


Its also worth noting that for every horrible teaching/statement in the Quran the bible generally has an equally horrific equivalent - these however are rationalized away quietly by people in the main because well its acceptable and normal to be a Christian where as we don't understand these other folk with their strange beliefs ...

(if you want I'd be happy to trade passages with you, despite being a heathen my (first) step father was a former clergy man and I've done a fair few bible studies in my time)

We can do this all day.
Again I self identify as a Christian but haven't been to a Church in probably 5 years.

Go ahead and throw out New Testament teachings that you reference. One of my conflictions with many Christian churches is the amount of time they spend on Old Testament teachings when Jesus said o lay those down. For me that is the Ultimate Authority repealing the erroneous teachings.

If there was a lost book found where Mohammed said, "All that Jihad and killing infidels stuff...ignore that. Go love one another" Id be a lot more accepting of it.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by AlexB

A fair bit of the criticisms of Islam are things that were considered commonplace in the progressive west until 50 years ago, 100 years ago: gay-bashing, women's rights, racial rights, etc. even gay marriage only recently was legal in all 50 states.

Yep, and it's somewhat amusing if not sad to see the people who would be most in favor of anti-homosexual laws or against womens' rights laws be trying to ding Islam for that.

Not that the "Christian world" in those regions are any better. Look at Uganda or the DRC.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Mind you, you went out of your way to find the most progressive countries in the Arab world. That sure does say something about that part of the world. But keep defending that way of life. Women, children, and homosexuals I'm sure appreciate it.

And here is the main problem. When convenient Islam = Arab. Even in vastly non-Arab countries such as in sub-Saharan Africa or the subcontinent of Asia or Indonesia. There is this strange confluence of 1.5 billion people into one 'culture', which tends to attempt equating with Arab culture (maybe because its one of the more repressive cultures in the world). We don't do this with any other religion. We even acknowledge quite vast differences among the Jewish people, who only have like 16 million adherents around the world.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Its also worth noting that for every horrible teaching/statement in the Quran the bible generally has an equally horrific equivalent - these however are rationalized away quietly by people in the main because well its acceptable and normal to be a Christian where as we don't understand these other folk with their strange beliefs ...

I will also point out that there are many who say that the reason the so-called Christian world has progressed in the area of civil and human rights is because those countries have abandoned Christianity and are secular states where the majority of people are nominal Christians or (as is becoming the case in European countries) atheistic. In that the separation of church and state caused these gains, not anything inherent in the religion itself.

I, of course, say this as a practicing Christian who attends Church every week and is a member of my congregation's Church Council and my synod's Synod Council, who also has parents and a younger sibling who are practicing Muslims (well, my brother is like a "Christmas and Easter" Muslim, but my parents go to mosque every Friday they can).

[Dutch]

"The countries governments have separated from Christianity" would be how I'd put it...

Really big difference. The people of these countries have not abandoned Christianity!

The same would be true in Saudi Arabia and Iran if their governments were separated. The people wouldn't suddenly become atheist! But it sure would help them calm the fuck down.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Really big difference. The people of these countries have not abandoned Christianity!

The same would be true in Saudi Arabia and Iran if their governments were separated. The people wouldn't suddenly become atheist! But it sure would help them calm the fuck down.

Indeed (though the extent that folks in Northern European countries, especially, have abandoned Christianity is far greater than you might imagine).

Unfortunately Iran was on the way until the late 1970s. Interestingly enough so was Iraq. The Middle East in the late 1960s and early 1970s was very secular, more into pan-Arab nationalism than Islamic fundamentalism. Then the shift occurred.

Even my ancestral land of Pakistan was pretty secular in government up until the 1980s, when Gen. Zia ul-Haq (who took power in a coup over the left-leaning Bhutto) decided to make the country more "Islamic". I wonder if the shift was due to an attempt to divest these countries from the Cold War - as it seemed that the US and the USSR wasn't really interested in helping those countries.

[Dutch]

True. I suspect the elites of northern Europe probably don't feel the need for religion as much as the poorer parts. But since we all value quality of life in some form or another, religion is a currency replacement of sorts, so perhaps it will change one day since Iran and Saudi Arabia have a lot of money...but it can't happen while the theocratic governments are rooted...and dictating that the root of all evil is America (and Russia) and all things foreign...to cover their own governmental greed.

So Christianity, to be fair, has what? A 600 year advantage on Islam in terms of age? Christians have done all the dirty work (both good and bad) and Islam needs to mature and use those lessens learned to accelerate their progress into the modern age. I couldn't tell you how much effort the Middle East and the majority Islamic nations are putting in to that. Doesn't seem like a whole lot. The outliers, yes, Turkey has made painful efforts to make Islam a secondary source of law, only to keep bouncing back and forth...

[ISiddiqui]

I don't think 75% of say, Sweden, are necessarily all 'elites' (that makes the word kind of silly and without meaning ). Though to be fair, a lot of them are 'soft' atheists in that they believe there is a life force or spirit (though no God or gods): Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for your second point, as I pointed out, 40-50 years ago it appeared Arab states were moving to secularism, so it isn't necessarily inherent in the religion itself... or at least the mainstream parts of the religion.. to be theocratic. One can also find that in American (or Canadian) Muslims that the vast majority of Muslims in our country are perfectly happy to be in a secular state where they can practice their religion.