July console sales numbers......

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I'm going to assume that these predictions you all are making are for North America only and not worldwide.

FWIW......I'm shocked that anyone is picking the Wii to finish anywhere other than 1st, worldwide or North America.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Estimated worldwide numbers for July are in.......

Wii.........1,010,087
PS3.........374,290
Xbox 360......239,571

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I'm going to assume that these predictions you all are making are for North America only and not worldwide.

FWIW......I'm shocked that anyone is picking the Wii to finish anywhere other than 1st, worldwide or North America.

You realize they're talking about Madden Sales, not Console Sales - right?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by wade moore

You realize they're talking about Madden Sales, not Console Sales - right?

Ah, thanks. That makes MUCH more sense. I had to stay up with the baby the last couple of nights.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Ah, thanks. That makes MUCH more sense. I had to stay up with the baby the last couple of nights.

I had a feeling you were talking consoles - I agree someone would have to be insane to think that anything but the Wii will lead.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

September now looks to be another battleground month. Some big titles on the 360 and PS3 for that month. New dates for the PS3 games are listed since they were moved back.

PS3 - Lair (September 4th), Stranglehold (September 11th), Heavenly Sword (September 18th)

Xbox 360 - Halo and PGR4


Additionally, the developers of Lair have come out and commented that the sites that did the reviews two weeks before release were not using a recent version of Lair. They stated that the copy the reviewers reviewed was a demo build. It's about halfway through this podcast.

http://www.insomniacgames.com/podcast.php

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

In a surprising move, GTA IV has been delayed until 2008:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6176074...ewstop;title;1

This hurts Microsoft quite a bit. The title was being released for both consoles, but the exclusive content was something MS had been showing as a selling point. With the large installed base lead that the 360 currently holds, GTA IV would have sold the vast majority of units between the two systems with a Fall '07 release. Who knows what the market will look like in a year?

As a sidenote, let's assume for the sake of discussion that EF27's comment concerning the PS3 version being the major hang-up is true. The fact that Take Two decided to delay the game, take a financial hit on this year's financials, and not go ahead and release the 360 version early with exclusive content speaks volumes. Take Two obviously did want to irritate Sony by making the game a timed exclusive. My guess is that they wanted to keep the relationship strong because of the incoming PS3 exclusive title that Rockstar is currently developing. Sony likely filled their wallets (despite the fact that the Sony execs are on record as saying they don't buy exclusives ) and they need that cash flow from both companies to keep them afloat until the release date on both games. A rift in the relationship with MS or Sony could send them into bankruptcy. They need that exclusive cash badly.

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Estimated worldwide numbers for July are in.......

I suspect the price cut rumors are hitting 360 sales at least as much, if not more than the hardware failure issues. After all, who is going to buy a 360 today if they think they can get it cheaper in a few weeks.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Ryan S

I suspect the price cut rumors are hitting 360 sales at least as much, if not more than the hardware failure issues. After all, who is going to buy a 360 today if they think they can get it cheaper in a few weeks.

The 360 numbers actually didn't drop a whole lot overall. They had a couple of bad weeks after the warranty announcement, but they stabilized. The major difference was that the PS3 just sold a lot of units after the price cut. The interesting part will be to watch the August numbers to see if Sony can sustain that sales rate over another month, especially if a rumored 360 price cut does come along.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

This hurts Microsoft quite a bit. The title was being released for both consoles, but the exclusive content was something MS had been showing as a selling point. With the large installed base lead that the 360 currently holds, GTA IV would have sold the vast majority of units between the two systems with a Fall '07 release. Who knows what the market will look like in a year?

As a sidenote, let's assume for the sake of discussion that EF27's comment concerning the PS3 version being the major hang-up is true. The fact that Take Two decided to delay the game, take a financial hit on this year's financials, and not go ahead and release the 360 version early with exclusive content speaks volumes. Take Two obviously did want to irritate Sony by making the game a timed exclusive. My guess is that they wanted to keep the relationship strong because of the incoming PS3 exclusive title that Rockstar is currently developing. Sony likely filled their wallets (despite the fact that the Sony execs are on record as saying they don't buy exclusives ) and they need that cash flow from both companies to keep them afloat until the release date on both games. A rift in the relationship with MS or Sony could send them into bankruptcy. They need that exclusive cash badly.

Maybe I'm reading too much between the lines, but I think Take Two is only delaying the game because they are now contractually obligated to release both versions. If you read all of the comments out there, this is a move that hurts them financially and that they are very disappointed to be doing. It's just a guess, but I really think this is a move dictated by contracts to release simulatanously.

I don't see how this hurts Microsoft that much. and certainly not as much as it hurts Sony. Microsoft has so many other AAA type titles coming out: Bioshock (even if it ends up only being a timed release, I doubt we see a PS3 version this year), Mass Effect, PGR (may be a stretch to call that one an AAA), Halo 3, among others. This hurts Sony much more in my opinion as the fall lineup still isn't that strong. Even if reviewers had old copies (which is a terrible move by Lair's developers), the reviews are out and most people are luke warm on Lair. Heavenly Sword seems to be the only truly anticipated title coming out this year with all of the delays that Sony's games are experiencing.

Edit: I forgot Blue Dragon for the 360 which has already done well in Japan considering the install rate over there. I think that is going to be big when it is released into other markets this month. And, yes, I wouldn't count Stranglehold as I don't think that is going to do much for Sony in terms of being a system seller since it is being released on both platforms and is being released a few weeks earlier on the 360.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

September now looks to be another battleground month. Some big titles on the 360 and PS3 for that month. New dates for the PS3 games are listed since they were moved back.

PS3 - Lair (September 4th), Stranglehold (September 11th), Heavenly Sword (September 18th)

Xbox 360 - Halo and PGR4


Additionally, the developers of Lair have come out and commented that the sites that did the reviews two weeks before release were not using a recent version of Lair. They stated that the copy the reviewers reviewed was a demo build. It's about halfway through this podcast.

http://www.insomniacgames.com/podcast.php

Probably I'm just way out of the loop for console games, but I honestly had never heard of any of those ps3 games until this thread. Are they supposed to be big titles like Halo and the racing game?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Bee

Probably I'm just way out of the loop for console games, but I honestly had never heard of any of those ps3 games until this thread. Are they supposed to be big titles like Halo and the racing game?

Lair has been heavily hyped (possibly overhyped) as a game for the PS3 to the point where it may not meet 'expectations' even if it is good.

Heavenly Sword is a hack-em-up game that follows in the genre of games like Dynasty Warriors, which had a pretty large following in the US and a huge following in Japan. I think it's fair to say it's the best of the three. The gameplay/graphics even in the demo were pretty stunning.

Stranglehold is a game directed by John Woo. I'm being somewhat unfair in that I listed it as a PS3 game, but it's technically on both consoles. The PS3 version has a hi-def version of John Woo's movie 'Hard Boiled' included on the disc.

It should also be noted that I'm speaking from a worldwide perspective concerning this being a battleground month, not North America. All three of these games should do pretty well in the U.S, but they'll all sell very well in Japan. The Stranglehold game should also sell very well in Europe due to the region-free movie included in the game, which they wouldn't be able to get otherwise.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by KWhit

The developer contradicts himself on that. His original quote was this (bolding mine):

Then later (after a ton of sites started up a shitstorm about it), he posted this (italics and bolding his):

And

So he is contradicting himself, or more than likely using semantics to cover his ass. They didn't use DVD size as a factor in their design. Ok. They didn't cut content to fit on the disc. Fine. There is still the likelyhood that post Design phase and prior to Content Development there was a determination made about how many courses and textures the DVD could hold and that affected the ultimate end product.

The design decision was "variable time of day". The implementation switched from "lots of textures" to "lighting". This is what dawgfan was getting at earlier: no design decision changed, they just changed the implementation. They had an implementation that used way too many textures, and they figured out a different way of doing it.

You can argue that this isn't really "time of day" anymore, but what you got is the same end result: variable lighting conditions on each track. Probably even more lighting conditions are available now than would have been before.

We make these kind of decisions each and every day. Something is too slow, so we come up with an alternative to get a similar end result. Something takes too long to load, so we come up with an alternative to get a similar result. Something takes too long to build, so we come up with an alternative to get a similar result. EVERY SINGLE FREAKIN' DAY.

This is what dawgfan also meant (I believe) by saying Mizzouh B-Ball Fan has no clue what goes on in game development, despite purporting to be an expert with all kinds of insider knowledege.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

N'Gai Croal comments on GTA IV delay. Basically says that Rockstar is using the PS3 version as a cover for the fact that they couldn't get their stuff together to get the 360 version done either........

If Rockstar could have completed the 360 version in time for its previously scheduled October release, it would have done so. Why? Because Take-Two definitely needs the revenue from what is by far its biggest franchise, and Microsoft desperately wanted to convert PlayStation 2 fans to Xbox 360 aficionados.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise us if Rockstar and Take-Two had already all-but-delayed the PS3 version to triage the Xbox 360 version for this holiday, only to have their hands forced when, at yesterday's product review, it became clear to both sides that even the 360 version could not be completed this year to Rockstar's exacting standards.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

This is what dawgfan also meant (I believe) by saying Mizzouh B-Ball Fan has no clue what goes on in game development, despite purporting to be an expert with all kinds of insider knowledege.

WTF?????? Where did I say that? He comment that I knew nothing about the industry when I have actually done work in it. I also stated that my experience in the industry didn't make me any smarter than anyone else here. Geez.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

WTF?????? Where did I say that? He comment that I knew nothing about the industry when I have actually done work in it. I also stated that my experience in the industry didn't make me any smarter than anyone else here. Geez.

You attempted to defend your misunderstanding of a design decision (which you were using to drive home the point that not having HD discs is a big deal to 360 developers) by claiming industry experience. Despite your protestations that it does not make you smarter than anyone else here, you continue to post as if you know what's going on with developers and what they are REALLY saying or doing in some particular quote.

Dawgfan and I (who are both in the industry) have told you several times in these threads that disc size is only important to a small segment of game developers (mostly because it's hard to create that much content in the first place), and you continually trot out any remotely-related comment by a developer to "prove" that 360 development is hard because it only has a normal DVD in it. Then you pick on that developer when he tries to explain the difference between a design decision and an implementation decision.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

You attempted to defend your misunderstanding of a design decision (which you were using to drive home the point that not having HD discs is a big deal to 360 developers) by claiming industry experience. Despite your protestations that it does not make you smarter than anyone else here, you continue to post as if you know what's going on with developers and what they are REALLY saying or doing in some particular quote.

Dawgfan and I (who are both in the industry) have told you several times in these threads that disc size is only important to a small segment of game developers (mostly because it's hard to create that much content in the first place), and you continually trot out any remotely-related comment by a developer to "prove" that 360 development is hard because it only has a normal DVD in it. Then you pick on that developer when he tries to explain the difference between a design decision and an implementation decision.

I understand that you and dawgfan are both developers. I also have never claimed any insider knowledge. That point is simply inaccurate. My point was that I've never attacked you personally as a poster just because I disagreed with your post. Refute the point, don't attack the poster. You could very well be 100% right. That's why it's called a discussion. I still totally disagree with your opinion on this topic. There's no question in my mind that they would have liked to have day/night on all tracks.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Stranglehold by John Woo will be the most expensive game ever made at just over $30 million. Wonder how much Woo is charging for his services????

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=27297

Midway investing $30 million in Stranglehold
Matt Martin 09:17 (BST) 03/08/2007
Euro MD claims game will be biggest seller this Christmas

Midway's European MD Martin Spiess has told GamesIndustry.biz the publisher is investing USD 30 million in upcoming action game Stranglehold.

Spiess claims the new IP could be the most expensive next-generation game in development, but is confident that come the September release the massive investment will pay off, with retail and consumers already very positive about the title.

"[Stranglehold cost] around USD 30 million, so it's possibly the most expensive next-generation game in development to date," said Spiess, in an interview to be published next week.

"The early indications from retail and the consumers are there, so it is going to pay off."

"In order to recoup development money you obviously have to sell a lot of units, but what we're seeing to date is that we will sell those units. Stranglehold will be the top selling title this Christmas," claimed Spiess.

The title has been developed in collaboration with Hollywood director John Woo and action icon Chow Yun-Fat. Pitched as a sequel to the 1992 movie Hard Boiled, the limited edition PlayStation 3 version of the game will include the original film on the Blu-ray disc.

And Spiess is confident that Stranglehold will offer a new experience for next-gen machines, rather than the equivalent of a PC game tweaked for the home console market.

"From a playability standpoint and a technology standpoint, we're delivering something which has not been done before - true next-gen for the first time, rather than just having some PC game ported onto next-gen with higher resolution graphics," he said.

[MikeVic]

How much do other games cost to make? I have no relative point to compare 30Million to, but it seems like a large amount.

[KWhit]

So what is supposed to make that game so great?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by KWhit

So what is supposed to make that game so great?

The game is a mix between an immersive movie experience and Max Payne-like gameplay is my understanding. $30M is a lot to spend on game development. My thought is that this game is like one of those summer movie blockbusters, where they have spent so much money that a success would be to break even. Obviously spending a ton of money doesn't guarantee a good game. If it doesn't do well, they're going to have a whole lotta nothing to show for it.

Part of me wants it to succeed because we want developers spending a lot of assets to develop big titles for the next-gen systems. The other part of me thinks that success may encourage lavish spending and more expensive games (or games that take longer to drop in price).

[stevew]

Isn't a profit almost unthinkable. The installed user base on the PS3 is something like, what, 5million. I'm not sure exactly what the studio rip per title is, but if it's say 50%, they'd have to penetrate 20% of the consoles just to get to the break even point.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by stevew

Isn't a profit almost unthinkable. The installed user base on the PS3 is something like, what, 5million. I'm not sure exactly what the studio rip per title is, but if it's say 50%, they'd have to penetrate 20% of the consoles just to get to the break even point.

The game will also be on the Xbox 360 (and is scheduled to be released a few weeks earlier as of right now) However, I still wonder if they will even break even. And, the PS3 actually has only sold about 4 million. Here are some good numbers of actual consoles sold:

0.42M Japan
6.61M America
3.24M Others
10.27M

42.5%

3.26M Japan
3.97M America
2.65M Others
9.88M

40.9%

1.07M Japan
1.74M America
1.20M Others
4.01M

16.6%

18.61M Japan
13.73M America
14.11M Others
46.45M

67.2%

5.85M Japan
8.86M America
7.95M Others
22.66M

32.8%

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I understand that you and dawgfan are both developers. I also have never claimed any insider knowledge. That point is simply inaccurate. My point was that I've never attacked you personally as a poster just because I disagreed with your post. Refute the point, don't attack the poster. You could very well be 100% right. That's why it's called a discussion. I still totally disagree with your opinion on this topic. There's no question in my mind that they would have liked to have day/night on all tracks.

The problem is that conversations (such as the disc one) go like:

You: Look! Developers hate the 360 disc size limitations!
Us: No they don't, and here's why.
You: Look! He's backtracking! Just trying to protect Microsoft!
Us: No he isn't, and here's why.
You: Yes he is!

At this point I have to ask where you are getting your information from. If you consider that a personal attack, fine, but you keep posting things and finding "interesting" interpretations of them, and I'm not sure where you keep getting these. Sony says "we will break even" and you say "price cut!", developer says "this did not a limit our design" and you say "yes it did!". The only question I've got left is "How do you figure?", especially when you question what dawgfan and I are trying to say. I know what the developer is trying to say, but you keep twisting his words to suit your point.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

The game will also be on the Xbox 360 (and is scheduled to be released a few weeks earlier as of right now) However, I still wonder if they will even break even. And, the PS3 actually has only sold about 4 million. Here are some good numbers of actual consoles sold:

I'm not even sure that $30M number includes marketing costs. I noticed the other day that the Midway CEO mentioned that he was concerned with PS3 sales. It almost seemed like he was laying the groundwork to blame the PS3's slow sales if this game tanks. Assuming a profit of $20/game, this game would have to sell 1.5M units on the PS3 and 360 to break even. That's a pretty daunting task to make any money with only 15M units combined worldwide.

FWIW, most generally agree that the VGChartz have a variance of 10-15% on their estimations. It's certainly a good bellweather estimate, but probably not the most accurate. They do revise their monthly totals after the NPD number come out, so their archived totals are a very good resource for historical data.

[Eaglesfan27]

You doesn't equal most. I haven't seen any other unbiased opinions from people who are in the business that VGChartz has that large of a variance on their estimations. It certainly has some, but that is inherent in sampling methods. Seems better than most of the numbers which are inflated by companies that have an active interest in slanting things.

[Big Fo]

Top selling title at Christmas

Halo 3
Madden 08
Super Mario Galaxy
Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Call of Duty 4

There's probably more that are likely to outsell Stranglehold.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

You doesn't equal most. I haven't seen any other unbiased opinions from people who are in the business that VGChartz has that large of a variance on their estimations. It certainly has some, but that is inherent in sampling methods. Seems better than most of the numbers which are inflated by companies that have an active interest in slanting things.

Check the VG charts numbers from the end of the month and then compare them to the NPD numbers. You'll find that the numbers can be off quite a bit at times. Perhaps I should clarify that the 10-15% variance is in the current numbers only. As I said, their historical numbers are good because they retroactively correct the numbers later. They're not inaccurate, they just have to be taken with a grain of salt. You'll notice that when I post the numbers from VG in these threads, I make sure to state that they are estimated numbers.

Bill Harris, N'Gai Croal, Geoff Knightly and Bill Abner are just a few of the people that refuse to use VGCharts numbers other than their historical data.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Top selling title at Christmas

Halo 3
Madden 08
Super Mario Galaxy
Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Call of Duty 4

There's probably more that are likely to outsell Stranglehold.

More importantly, none of those games have an expense budget even close to $30M. Madden, Halo 3 and COD4 all have much smaller budgets because they aren't reinventing the wheel in the sequels. The Wii titles obviously have a much smaller expense budget as well due to the ease of coding in that system with well-known techniques already available to them.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

The game will also be on the Xbox 360 (and is scheduled to be released a few weeks earlier as of right now) However, I still wonder if they will even break even. And, the PS3 actually has only sold about 4 million. Here are some good numbers of actual consoles sold:

What's interesting to me is that even with the big bump the PS3 got with the price cut last month and the negative hits that MS took with the reliability issues and pending price cut, it would take Sony about 40 months of similar sales rates to catch up. Sony really needs to do something drastic IMO to get back into the race.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Bee

What's interesting to me is that even with the big bump the PS3 got with the price cut last month and the negative hits that MS took with the reliability issues and pending price cut, it would take Sony about 40 months of similar sales rates to catch up. Sony really needs to do something drastic IMO to get back into the race.

Agreed. Konami has leaked that MGS4 looks to be a March 2008 release. That should provide a large console boost, especially in Japan. But even assuming a worldwide boost of 2M units over a month's time, they'd still have more work in front of them. There HAS to be a price cut if Sony plans on meeting that 10M units in 9 monts goal. This month they sold somewhere between 350-400K units. That's not even close to enough to meet their goal.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Good interview of Mark Rein over at Joystiq. Lots of info about a wide variety of topics......

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/08/03/jo...-3s-mark-rein/

[Bee]

Yep, and even taking into account the various bumps Sony will get with various releases, you still have to take into account Microsoft doing a price cut and having some big titles coming up that should bump their sales. It's going to take something seriously big for Sony to catchup IMO.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Bee

Yep, and even taking into account the various bumps Sony will get with various releases, you still have to take into account Microsoft doing a price cut and having some big titles coming up that should bump their sales. It's going to take something seriously big for Sony to catchup IMO.

A Dragon-riding dogfighting game kind of like Rogue Squadron is going to get it done!

[Bee]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

A Dragon-riding dogfighting game kind of like Rogue Squadron is going to get it done!

Would a dogfighting game have Michael Vick on the cover?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Bee

Would a dogfighting game have Michael Vick on the cover?

BOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! *****tomatoes thrown*****

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Wii owners should be excited about this announcement. There's going to be an MLB version of Power Pro Baseball released in the U.S. The Japanese baseball games are a lot of fun and play a very good baseball game. Really excited to get this one.

http://ir.take2games.com/ReleaseDeta...leaseID=258293

[Eaglesfan27]

Analysts also believe that the PS3 Port is to blame for GTA 4's delay:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=14971


Pachter: PS3 Port Caused GTA IV Delay

Wedbush Morgan's Michael Pachter says Take-Two management has "stumbled badly for the first time" with the delay of GTA IV, and said that he believes difficulties porting the game to the PlayStation 3 are to blame and that the company's new green light policy appears to be a failure.

"We think it is likely," said Pachter, "that the Rockstar team had difficulty in building an exceptionally complicated game for the PS3, and failed to recognize how far away from completion the game truly was until recently."

"We think it is also likely that Take-Two had a contractual commitment to Sony that it would not favor competitor Microsoft by launching the Xbox 360 version of GTA IV prior to launching the PS3 version," he continued, "and believe that any delay of the PS3 version necessitated a delay of the Xbox 360 version."

The delay has caused somewhat of a valuation quandary for Pachter, as he adds "we are unprepared to predict what Take-Two management can truly deliver until we see some positive results."

"We think that new management is doing many things right," he says, "but believe that some structural obstacles remain. The company has begun an initiative to improve the green light process for new projects, but given the delays of Manhunt and GTA, its process for monitoring projects under development appears to be a failure."

Pachter concludes, "Until we see evidence of better controls over work in process and greater diligence in project selection, we are not confident that the company will gain market share in future years."

[bob]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Wii owners should be excited about this announcement. There's going to be an MLB version of Power Pro Baseball released in the U.S. The Japanese baseball games are a lot of fun and play a very good baseball game. Really excited to get this one.

http://ir.take2games.com/ReleaseDeta...leaseID=258293

Any clue the price on this game - outside of the batting / pitching faceoff, it looks a lot like RBI baseball on the NES.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Wii owners should be excited about this announcement. There's going to be an MLB version of Power Pro Baseball released in the U.S. The Japanese baseball games are a lot of fun and play a very good baseball game. Really excited to get this one.

http://ir.take2games.com/ReleaseDeta...leaseID=258293

Badass. I've wanted to play the "big head" baseball for awhile, but am too lazy to go to the trouble of importing it. Can't wait for this title.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

We make these kind of decisions each and every day. Something is too slow, so we come up with an alternative to get a similar end result. Something takes too long to load, so we come up with an alternative to get a similar result. Something takes too long to build, so we come up with an alternative to get a similar result. EVERY SINGLE FREAKIN' DAY.

This is what dawgfan also meant (I believe) by saying Mizzouh B-Ball Fan has no clue what goes on in game development, despite purporting to be an expert with all kinds of insider knowledege.

Yep, you nailed it.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Stranglehold is a game directed by John Woo. I'm being somewhat unfair in that I listed it as a PS3 game, but it's technically on both consoles. The PS3 version has a hi-def version of John Woo's movie 'Hard Boiled' included on the disc.

It's not just "technically" on both consoles, it's had more development time on the 360. It uses the Unreal 3 engine, and 360 dev kits have been available for much longer than PS3 dev kits.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Analysts also believe that the PS3 Port is to blame for GTA 4's delay:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=14971


Pachter: PS3 Port Caused GTA IV Delay

Wedbush Morgan's Michael Pachter says Take-Two management has "stumbled badly for the first time" with the delay of GTA IV, and said that he believes difficulties porting the game to the PlayStation 3 are to blame and that the company's new green light policy appears to be a failure.

"We think it is likely," said Pachter, "that the Rockstar team had difficulty in building an exceptionally complicated game for the PS3, and failed to recognize how far away from completion the game truly was until recently."

"We think it is also likely that Take-Two had a contractual commitment to Sony that it would not favor competitor Microsoft by launching the Xbox 360 version of GTA IV prior to launching the PS3 version," he continued, "and believe that any delay of the PS3 version necessitated a delay of the Xbox 360 version."

The delay has caused somewhat of a valuation quandary for Pachter, as he adds "we are unprepared to predict what Take-Two management can truly deliver until we see some positive results."

"We think that new management is doing many things right," he says, "but believe that some structural obstacles remain. The company has begun an initiative to improve the green light process for new projects, but given the delays of Manhunt and GTA, its process for monitoring projects under development appears to be a failure."

Pachter concludes, "Until we see evidence of better controls over work in process and greater diligence in project selection, we are not confident that the company will gain market share in future years."

Awful lot of 'we think it is likely' statements. Doesn't exactly sound like very firm information. I don't think there's any question that the PS3 game wasn't ready. But judging from even the videos that were running on the 360 hardware and the comments from Croal who said he spoke with 'sources' (God knows what that means), it appears that the 360 version was just as unimpressive in yesterday's session. Perhaps it was more impressive than the PS3 version at this stage, but that may not be saying much.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

More importantly, none of those games have an expense budget even close to $30M. Madden, Halo 3 and COD4 all have much smaller budgets because they aren't reinventing the wheel in the sequels.

Not necessarily true - when you have sequels on a new platform, developers usually re-write their game engine to take advantage of the new hardware and the art & audio teams usually upgrade their content. I don't know if Bungie has spent $30M on Halo 3, but I'd bet they've spent a lot of time re-writing their game engine for the 360 and the art and audio departments have spent a lot of time upgrading their content, in addition to any new game features requiring new code and content. Halo 3 isn't a simple sequel - it's a next-gen continuation of an existing franchise, so the costs are likely closer to development of a new IP than to a sequel on the same platform.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Not necessarily true - when you have sequels on a new platform, developers usually re-write their game engine to take advantage of the new hardware and the art & audio teams usually upgrade their content. I don't know if Bungie has spent $30M on Halo 3, but I'd bet they've spent a lot of time re-writing their game engine for the 360 and the art and audio departments have spent a lot of time upgrading their content, in addition to any new game features requiring new code and content. Halo 3 isn't a simple sequel - it's a next-gen continuation of an existing franchise, so the costs are likely closer to development of a new IP than to a sequel on the same platform.

Good point. Madden and COD are different because they already have previous versions on the next-gen consoles.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Not sure why Sony felt the need to release these comments.........

Sony: GTA IV Won’t "Make or Break" PS3


Sony Computer Entertainment America has told Next-Gen that it wants Grand Theft Auto IV to release soon, but added that PS3 isn’t reliant on one hit game. SCEA PR boss Dave Karraker said in an e-mail regarding the delay of GTA IV, “Naturally, all of the hardware manufacturers would love to have Grand Theft Auto IV released as soon as possible, but this is such an important franchise we support Take-Two in taking as much time as they need to make a great game.

“No single game makes or breaks any PlayStation platform. Rather than rely on one hit game, we prefer to offer consumers a wide choice in software, appealing to a broader audience beyond just the hardcore gamer,” he said.

Karraker noted that between now and the holidays, SCEA alone is publishing 10 exclusive games on PS3 in North America. One-hundred-twenty are in the pipeline for this fiscal year.

The delay of GTA IV isn’t only a negative for Take-Two in the short term, but also console manufacturers like Sony and Microsoft, as GTA IV was expected to be a system-mover during the busy holiday season.

It was also one of the prime factors in Microsoft’s self-professed “greatest holiday lineup in history,” although Halo 3 will capably fill the void on Xbox 360 along with other big titles.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Not sure why Sony felt the need to release these comments.........

Yeah... just the norm right now lol.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Not sure why Sony felt the need to release these comments.........

Maybe because it was such a big title that they were relying on for 2007. Also, I don't know about that preview of GTA IV on the 360 that you are talking about, but most previews have said that it was coming along very well on the 360. Check out gamespot or any of the big preview/review sites. All of the footage that has been shown has been from the 360, which is also an indicator that version has been in development for a longer period of time and was much further along.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Maybe because it was such a big title that they relying on. Also, I don't know about that preview of GTA IV on the 360 that you are talking about, but most previews have said that it was coming along very well on the 360. Check out gamespot or any of the big preview/review sites. All of the footage that has been shown has been from the 360, which is also an indicator that version has been in development for a longer period of time and was much further along.

There were framerate issues in the 360 preview builds, but those concerns were written off as an early build. I have no doubt we'll never know for sure because Take Two, MS and Sony are all going to blame each other if you ask them point blank.

I agree with the assessment on the Sony comment. I'm not sure it was a make or break title for them as I honestly believe it's more important for the 360, but the way the comments were made indicate some kind of frustration while trying to say "Nothing to see here! Nothing to see here!"

[Eaglesfan27]

Can you give any rational explanation how this was more important for the 360. The 360 has many more huge titles coming out in 07 while Sony has hardly any and was really counting on GTA 4 to help combat the Halo crush that is coming (not to mention all of the aforementioned 360 exclusives coming in the upcoming 3 months.)