Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[Toddzilla]

What an abortion of a PPV.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Rest in peace Brad Armstrong

WWE is saddened to learn of the passing of Brad Armstrong, 51, one of four sons of “Bullet” Bob Armstrong. Brad Armstrong last participated in the ring for the ECW brand in 2006. WWE understands that Brad saw his physician last week for a medical issue and was found unresponsive this morning. WWE extends its sincerest condolences to the entire Armstrong family.

WWE.com: Brad Armstrong passes away

[JonInMiddleGA]

Friend of mine penned the PWTorch guest column paying tribute to Brad Armstrong.
PWTorch.com - GUEST EDITORIAL: Brad Armstrong tribute - long-time fan offers perspective on Brad's outstanding career

[tucking fypo]

Really one of the most underrated workers of his generation, imho.

[RainMaker]

WWE Star Makes Local Boy’s Dream Come True « CBS Pittsburgh

[INDalltheway]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

WWE Star Makes Local Boy’s Dream Come True « CBS Pittsburgh

YES! YES! YES!

[Mota]

Best wrestler in the business today! If they gave him half the push they give The Ryback, he'd be a huge star. Remember he started off 0-11 and they did their best to make sure all the fans think he was boring, and he still became one of the top players in the WWE completely on his own.

It was really great to see him have a great moment like this, I think it meant as much to him as it did to the kid.

And on a non-Daniel Bryan topic, CM Punk is awesome.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I knew DDP was doing the yoga/fitness hybrid thing ... I did not know that Jake "The Snake" had dropped 50 pounds & gotten sober (we hope) while using it & working with Page. I'd be lying if I didn't say how great it would be if Roberts could finally conquer his demons, props to DDP for being willing to try to help (where so many others have already tried).

Former wrestler uses yoga to transform lives | www.ajc.com

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Mota

Best wrestler in the business today! If they gave him half the push they give The Ryback, he'd be a huge star. Remember he started off 0-11 and they did their best to make sure all the fans think he was boring, and he still became one of the top players in the WWE completely on his own.

It was really great to see him have a great moment like this, I think it meant as much to him as it did to the kid.

And on a non-Daniel Bryan topic, CM Punk is awesome.

I think CM Punk is the best wrestler in the business, but I am a fan of Daniel Bryan's work.

[IlliniCub]

Yeah I've been following the DDP and Jake videos closely on youtube...You hope for the guy but in the back of your mind you're just waiting for that next slip....I hope it's for real this time. He seems happy and still has the charisma that made him. Would love to see him turn it around enough that WWE isn't afraid to induct him to the Hall and give him a live mic

[WVUFAN]

Maybe it's just me, but CM Punk owned the Rock in their promo tonight. It was pretty intense, but the "your arms are too short to box with God" line is just classic.

[rjolley]

Punk was better. Rock was rusty. It shows that he hasn't done this in a long time, sorta like he did with Cena last year. I think Punk was more effective because he didn't try to beat the Rock at his own game. He stayed with his style.

[Toddzilla]

tired schtick

[molson]

Originally Posted by IlliniCub

Yeah I've been following the DDP and Jake videos closely on youtube...You hope for the guy but in the back of your mind you're just waiting for that next slip....I hope it's for real this time. He seems happy and still has the charisma that made him. Would love to see him turn it around enough that WWE isn't afraid to induct him to the Hall and give him a live mic

Scott Hall's moving in with DDP now too. God bless DDP (but I hope he's taken adequate security precautions.)

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

Scott Hall's moving in with DDP now too. God bless DDP (but I hope he's taken adequate security precautions.)

Nice to see one of these guys trying to help others out of the depths.

[Suicane75]

Punks promo was awesome, unfortunately with him on top it's too much like they're trying to serve two gods. That promo was a home run to crowd who has been around a long time and loves wrestling, not sure how much it affected the kids and the women they're trying to attract. The promo would have been even stronger if he hadn't just come off a match where he looked like the chicken shittest of a chicken shit heel. I mean, they're beating Ryback all over the place anyway, why not just have Punk win clean, or at least cleaner. If you have any faith at all in your storytelling ability you can have Ryback lose a tough ladder match clean and still build him up for another run. But whatever, it's all week to week anyway so who gives a fudge.

[RainMaker]

I didn't think either promo was great. Punk went on too long. He also should have stuck with the "fans are sheep and wrestlers don't care" bit more and less on the reason why he's winning or a God. And while I like the Rock, it's old since every single face in the company just copies his gimmick now. He was like the 4th guy to come out that night and give a goofy humor based face promo that wasn't particularly funny.

The Cena-Rock stuff was much better. It felt like Punk was going to go down an epic promo route and then kept pulling back and entering cheesy heel gimmick mode. The stuff about "little jimmy", Daniel Bryan, and Tyson Kidd was great though. Should have focused on that.

[molson]

Punk's smarky schtick is great at drawing cynical internet wrestling fans to illegal PPV streams.

I do think he's great, especially with Heyman. But I agree with Suicane75, it's a tough balance between "cool" and profitable. Who's spending money on this stuff? Kids and parents for sure. Punk can be a great traditional heel. He can appeal to the IWC too. Do you hedge it or do you go all in on one?

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

If you have any faith at all in your storytelling ability...

well, there you go

[RainMaker]

If I remember correctly, Money in the Bank after Punk's promo had a really good buyrate. Those people are buying PPVs. And it seems like his merchandise does sell well.

It's not so much cool I'd be looking for as it is different. At this point, every face is the same and every heel is the same. The only exception is Ryback who has become incredibly popular (maybe they're on to something!).

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

If I remember correctly, Money in the Bank after Punk's promo had a really good buyrate. Those people are buying PPVs. And it seems like his merchandise does sell well.

It got 195,000, up from 165,000 the year before. But the interest interest around that PPV v. the money in the bank PPV the year before was off the charts. It was probably the 2nd most buzzed about ppv of the year after Mania. I can't cite any numbers but I'd bet that the 2011 MITB was watched by several times more people than the 2010 version, but it only translated into 30,000 more buys.

Hell in the Cell this year with traditional heel Punk v. new exciting babyface Ryback and no supporting card got 200,000 buys.

Edit: Which is kind of fascinating because while just about everyone agrees that new talent is good, Ryback isn't the Punk/Bryan/Ambrose kind of "new talent" - he's a Ultimate Warrior-type, unique and exciting with no wrestling credentials whatsoever. So Ryback's ability to draw on PPV comes primarily, I think, from children and casual fans.

[Mota]

Yes, but Survivor Series with Ryback, CM Punk and Cena in the main event a month later drew one of the worst buyrates in WWE history. Ryback is not a great wrestler, he's definitely not a great talker, but he was unbeaten up until that first Punk match and that was intriguing. Now that he's been beaten (a lot) it seems like he's cooling down fast. They can definitely use new talent though so hopefully he settles in as an upper midcarder or something.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mota

Yes, but Survivor Series with Ryback, CM Punk and Cena in the main event a month later drew one of the worst buyrates in WWE history.

One of the worst ever for Survivor Series maybe (which isn't really pushed as a top PPV anymore), but still 212,000, more than Hell in the Cell and #5 for the year behind the big 3 and Extreme Rules (which had Lesnar/Cena). Certainly a lot more than Punk/Cena at MITB. Even though it had a fraction of the internet buzz of Punk/Cena MITB.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Edit: Which is kind of fascinating because while just about everyone agrees that new talent is good, Ryback isn't the Punk/Bryan/Ambrose kind of "new talent" - he's a Ultimate Warrior-type, unique and exciting with no wrestling credentials whatsoever. So Ryback's ability to draw on PPV comes primarily, I think, from children and casual fans.

I thought Ryback might do well because he's different. All the big faces are the same in WWE. They come out, make bad jokes, and either win cleanly or lose because of interference. There is really no difference between John Cena and Sheamus, they are interchangeable from a character standpoint. So a guy like Ryback who doesn't talk, who just kicks ass is kind of cool. Maybe they killed it with him losing so much, but I thought he would get attention just for being different from every other wrestler.

You can also say the same about the heels. They all have the same gimmick of being a chickenshit. Maybe that strategy works, I just think that having different personalities and characters makes for a stronger product.

They'll also never let Ambrose be himself. He'll play the chickenshit heel role soon and be just like everyone else.

[Suicane75]

The thing that strikes me most about Ryback, at least to me, is that he has almost no charisma. He's cross eyed, the marching thing is goofy, there is just little there besides the power and the push. I know he travels with Bryan a lot and I've been waiting to see some of that rub off on him but so far it just hasn't.

[Toddzilla]

Shit, think Big Show has ever drawn a dollar? They gotta get the belt off his fat ass asap.

[Comey]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Shit, think Big Show has ever drawn a dollar? They gotta get the belt off his fat ass asap.

I see what you did there.

[Comey]

dola--

If they ever let Big Show be himself, and do his thing on the mic, he'd be *huge*. Dude is legit hilarious, and is one of the most generous, nicest people you could meet. He's great with kids, too...if the body of work hadn't been built up, he'd have been perfect for the PG era.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Comey

dola--

If they ever let Big Show be himself, and do his thing on the mic, he'd be *huge*. Dude is legit hilarious, and is one of the most generous, nicest people you could meet. He's great with kids, too...if the body of work hadn't been built up, he'd have been perfect for the PG era.

I think you gotta go back and forth with a guy like that. When he's funny for too long, people complain that he's booked as "a joke." So then he's a monster again for a while. But you can't be a monster forever in modern pro wrestling when you have big TV matches every week and and a PPV every month. The monster aura is going to wear off (like it would have for Andre the Giant and others back in the day if they didn't have the opportunity to switch territories every few months). So the monster schtick gets stale, and he goes back to being funny. They've similarly gone back and forth with Kane for 15 years.

[DaddyTorgo]

Is Big Show just a big guy? Or does he have a medical condition? *checks wikipedia*

Aaah okay, he used to have acromegaly but had a successful operation. Not sure if I ever knew that before.

Definitely didn't know that he was the big Orion in the Star Trek Enterprise episode "Borderlands" before today. Cool shit.

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Shit, think Big Show has ever drawn a dollar? They gotta get the belt off his fat ass asap.

Spoiler

They did

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Definitely didn't know that he was the big Orion in the Star Trek Enterprise episode "Borderlands" before today. Cool shit.

He was pretty good in an episode of Royal Pains too.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by molson

I think you gotta go back and forth with a guy like that. When he's funny for too long, people complain that he's booked as "a joke." So then he's a monster again for a while. But you can't be a monster forever in modern pro wrestling when you have big TV matches every week and and a PPV every month. The monster aura is going to wear off (like it would have for Andre the Giant and others back in the day if they didn't have the opportunity to switch territories every few months). So the monster schtick gets stale, and he goes back to being funny. They've similarly gone back and forth with Kane for 15 years.

I agree with you there, and I think they have switched him back and forth over the years. As funny as he is though, when he's playing the comedy character it doesn't translate as well to being a draw. But yeah other than Undertaker, no one has been able to keep the monster character going for too long before it wears off.

[Maple Leafs]

Hey guys... can anyone recommend a reasonably well-written site for pro wrestling news and analysis that isn't infested with popups, viruses and random login prompts?

[Comey]

lordsofpain.net

[Suicane75]

WrestlingObserver.com

Pretty sure the daily updates and some front page material is free. But it's more than worth $10 a month for the podcasts, new observers and old observers. Be wary of the board though.

[stevew]

Chris Jericho is on the Nerdist podcast this week.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

WrestlingObserver.com

Used to be a fan of that site but am tired of playing "is this a link to free content or a login page?" roulette on every click.

[Lathum]

serious question, id wresteling still on TV? I don't recall seeing any promos for it recently. It seemed to peak a few years ao and now gone away. I have zero desire to ever watch it, just curious.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Lathum

serious question, id wresteling still on TV? I don't recall seeing any promos for it recently. It seemed to peak a few years ao and now gone away. I have zero desire to ever watch it, just curious.

Umm, yeah.

Raw (on USA) is still the #2 most watched cable show on Monday nights, albeit with about half the audience it used to have. Got hurt badly by the move of the NFL to cable on Monday nights.

Smackdown (now on SyFy) is usually in the top 2-3 total audience, top 10 A18-49. Give or take 3m total viewers.

TNA Impact (on Spike) is about middle of the pack on Thursday nights, from about 1m to 1.3m total viewers.

And some local affiliates (mostly Sinclair Broadcasting stations) have Ring of Honor, typically late night/overnight somewhere on the weekend. Ratings are shit pretty much everywhere though.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Comey

lordsofpain.net

Will check it out, thanks.

[TLK]

It seems like they've been running the same matches on RAW for weeks. Stale and boring even with the Rock.

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by TLK

It seems like they've been running the same matches on RAW for weeks. Stale and boring even with the Rock.

it is. they need a serious reboot to how they are doing thier shows. so stale predicable and by the numbers

[RainMaker]

When are they going to let Ambrose talk?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

When are they going to let Ambrose talk?

I don't recall Jon Moxley being a big talker so it may not be any time soon. TBH I didn't realize that Ambrose = Moxley, it kinda surprises me that he even got signed. Most of his indy career was more hardcore based than S.E. or even wrestling based.

[Mota]

Ambrose is one of the best talkers out there, right from the day he went to Florida. He was definitely a hardcore wrestler in the indies but he's tall and can talk so I guess the year in Florida helped him out.

I went to a DGUSA show in Toronto once and the whole crew went through the crowd to grab a coffee before the show (small venue so only one way in/out). Moxley went for the door right in front of us and was really nice to my son as he walked past us. Then he went up against Jimmy Jacobs at the show and they fought through the crowd right near us, was pretty cool. I think he nearly tore off his nipple on the railing during that match, half of it looked almost severed. Looked really painful.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

He was definitely a hardcore wrestler in the indies but he's tall and can talk so I guess the year in Florida helped him out.

Quite possible. My exposure to him is fairly limited, a few matches here & there, I just never came across him really standing out that way. Maybe more charisma than stick ability is kinda the take I came away with {shrug}.

I think he nearly tore off his nipple on the railing during that match, half of it looked almost severed. Looked really painful.

An incident so notable that it's even mentioned in his Wiki

[molson]

I think Ambrose might have taken some acting lessons or something. He does this thing where he makes facial expressions that don't exactly match up with whatever sentiment he's expressing verbally. Like, he'll randomly shake his head back and forth as if he's saying "no" while saying something that in no way related to an expression of "no". I actually don't know if that's an legit acting thing, but I noticed it and it makes him interesting to watch compared to most pro wrestlers who just kind of robotically deliver their lines, or at best, try to express very simple emotions in very non-subtle ways.

He's also pretty hilarious whenever Ryback's music interrupts one of the Shield's run-ins. Just from his body language and facial expression he's all, "Jesus, not this fucking guy again."

[RainMaker]

He's got a unique persona. Tough to put a finger on it. Kind of plays that character of a guy who is slightly unhinged but not over the top. His mannerisms are just great, even when he's not talking. His promos are really good. Needs polishing, but he's better than 90% of the current roster on the mic. And he has some great matches on YouTube, including the recent one against Regal.

Dean Ambrose Promo - YouTube
Dean Ambrose promo on William Regal - YouTube
Dean Ambrose (Jon Moxley) FCW Debut Promo - YouTube

Like you said, I wonder if there is acting in his background. He's one of the few guys in the business who you don't think is playing a character.

[Toddzilla]

When he entered the ring to surround Mick Foley and Ryback's music started, Ambrose's reaction was perfect and it's those little things that make a good character great.