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View Poll Results: How is Obama doing? (poll started 6/6) | |||
Great - above my expectations | 18 | 6.87% | |
Good - met most of my expectations | 66 | 25.19% | |
Average - so so, disappointed a little | 64 | 24.43% | |
Bad - sold us out | 101 | 38.55% | |
Trout - don't know yet | 13 | 4.96% | |
Voters: 262. You may not vote on this poll |
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08-24-2009, 01:52 PM | #4201 | |
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And be careful, MBBF is going to call you out for generalizing all doctors as crooks who will rob the government. |
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08-24-2009, 01:53 PM | #4202 | |
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But this is a 'No Shit, Sherlock' kind of statement. Of course the insured are going to get more tests and often better treatment. The resources are available to make that happen. Of course the people who are uninsured are going to get less tests and worse treatment. In many cases, the government won't pay enough reimbursement money to cover anything more than a bare bones checkup/treatment for an uninsured person. In many cases, especially in family practices, the doctor treat the government covered patients at cost or in some cases at a small loss. The only way they can make any money is due to private companies that can actually pay for the treatments and allow the doctors to make a profit. In regards to the video you posted, some big time assumptions that simply don't hold water by this 'expert' in the video who 'puts aside politics'. If you have to state that, you really aren't putting it aside. 1. His life expectancy graph doesn't take into account the explosion in obesity that is the main reason in the slowdown of life expectancy. It has little to do with health care not doing its job in relation to dollars spent, as he falsely implies. 2. His assumptions regarding treatment is a VERY weak correlation. Also, the 'high spending' regions that he cites are the same places where obesity is at its highest. You'd be shocked at how many of the cheaper treatments are often not available for obese patients, necessatating the use of the more expensive versions of tests to get accurate results. He also uses very generalized statements to describe the situation that really don't encompass the true issues behind the costs. People are just too f'n fat in America. That's the major issue. We're having to spend an increasing amount of money on people. |
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08-24-2009, 01:54 PM | #4203 | |
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I do think it's a bit about pay. The military offers a stable job and opportunity for many who otherwise wouldn't have it. It offers the chance for certain people to attend school, support their family, and get out of whatever bad situation they may be in. It's why military recruitment is so high in poverty stricken communities. That's not to say all are in it for the money as I'd wager that many aren't. But I do think it's seen as a great opportunity by some. |
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08-24-2009, 01:56 PM | #4204 | ||
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Quote:
I didn't post a video. |
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08-24-2009, 01:56 PM | #4205 | |
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Agreed. You'll never eliminate it completely, but it's being used far too often right now. |
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08-24-2009, 01:57 PM | #4206 | |
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Or rather more unnecessary tests. The system is created to encourage more and more testing when it isn't needed.
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08-24-2009, 02:04 PM | #4207 | |
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Hey, whaddya know, one of those infrequent times when we're pretty much in general agreement on something.
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08-24-2009, 02:05 PM | #4208 | |
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I just wanted to point out that since you confirmed that when you throw single quotes out around something, you think it's BS that you did indeed think the people cancelling town halls in fear were full of shit. You ARE Ridiculous and ought to admit, for once, when youre wrong. You cant. You wont. You are indeed an idealogue who spins like a dreidel and even when shown to be wrong by the party you support (on that particular faux-rage of the day) or their supporters which can align with you, you continually push on to the next spin. You were wrong. I told you you might be. You threw down the "Strawman" card. Then had people show up at Town Halls with Semi-automatic weapons and not once said, "You know, perhaps I was wrong to insinuate that those that cancelled were pussies after all." You know no bounds in your spin and cannot even admit to being wrong on the slightest thing for fear it undermines your rhetoric when you trample on your own credibility repeatedly. I know I know some are going to say, "Flasch, leave it alone blah blah blah...youre as batshit as he is" but that shit needs to be exposed because it infects everything he says, and the spin he tries to lay out as being his opinion/fact (which are interchangeable apparently).
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08-24-2009, 02:08 PM | #4209 | |
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It wasn't created to encourage that. That's simply not true. There are some that use it for that purpose, but most doctors do not. I know it's fun to villanize the doctors, but you point out where the real reforms should be made. If we use the current opportunity properly, the first step would be to reduce many of these loopholes. If we do that, then maybe we'd actually have some money to accomplish some form of coverage for the people who don't currently have coverage. At a minimum, the premiums would be reduced to a more manageable level. |
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08-24-2009, 02:11 PM | #4210 |
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no stats to counter the above ones. nice.
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08-24-2009, 05:12 PM | #4211 | |
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Rendition of Terror Suspects Will Continue Under Obama - NYTimes.com
Quote:
WTF?! So what is the reason to engage in rendition if you are not attempting to skate around US law? Why send them elsewhere then? Seriously... its like they aren't even trying in coming up with BS reasons.
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"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams Last edited by ISiddiqui : 08-24-2009 at 05:27 PM. |
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08-24-2009, 05:16 PM | #4212 |
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I don't remember what Obama said about this while he was campaigning, but I would bet that his supporters would have thought he wouldn't have continued that practice.
Last edited by molson : 08-24-2009 at 05:17 PM. |
08-24-2009, 05:24 PM | #4213 |
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Fuck, I don't even thinking they would have thought McCain would have continued it!
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08-24-2009, 05:31 PM | #4214 | |
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Because they want to keep their options open to skate around US law. Last edited by molson : 08-24-2009 at 05:31 PM. |
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08-24-2009, 07:22 PM | #4215 |
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I dont know all the details but at first blush I think that sucks.
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08-24-2009, 07:32 PM | #4216 |
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yeah - that sucks
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08-24-2009, 07:47 PM | #4217 | |
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This type of stuff has proven (in my mind anyway) my suspiscions that the general public really has no idea "what" the President is informed of on a daily basis. I know a lot of people think Bush was a typical chickenhawk Republican...but IMHO...he was a guy that wanted to help make the US richer and saw a lot of shit come across his desk that changed his priorities. I suspected we would see the same thing from Obama...a smart guy that wanted to help the less fortunate...and is starting to see things that convince him that he can't help anybody until he deals with the threats around the world. |
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08-24-2009, 08:08 PM | #4218 | |
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Ding ding ding.
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08-25-2009, 12:01 AM | #4219 |
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08-25-2009, 05:56 AM | #4220 |
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I remain unconvinced that we need rendition.
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08-25-2009, 06:51 AM | #4221 |
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FWIW Pawlenty is on CNBC saying that Obama is supposed to be the great Uniter yet it looks like now he'll have to force the Health Care program 'down our throats'. I find this highly hypocritical when the GOP has been adamantly opposed to compromise. Theyre going to try to play both sides of the coin.
At the same time 'Leader Army' (Dick) is saying that States cant handle and have bungled programs that we've seen so far. So now it's not able to be done on the state level either. He also has wiped out the Co-op as an option as well. He says it's not about the focus on the health safety and security of the American People but about the Focus of Governmental Power (again blending the two arguments together). Compromise is not in the cards...probably never was. -CNBC, my watching
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08-25-2009, 07:31 AM | #4222 | ||
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Here's what was listed on his campaign website......... http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/Count...mFactSheet.pdf Quote:
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08-25-2009, 07:48 AM | #4223 | |
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i had high hopes this would happen, and honestly i think it's still his personal belief, but the reality is (and likely always was) that in the current environment, given the "momentum" behind the "national security state" (man that sounds really nazi-esque), the high degree of autonomy enjoyed by the intelligence organizations and such, that it would be difficult for any president to make such a change. i hoped Obama would have the balls to do it, but it really doesn't surprise me that he didn't.
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08-25-2009, 08:00 AM | #4224 | |
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Obama's problem was that he made an idealist blanket statement to pander to his base without getting a full understanding of the complexity of the system in place that handles these kinds of things. This is something that was pointed out when he made the statements. It shouldn't be surprising that he was wrong. It should be surprising that he made the statement during his campaign to garner votes rather than make a well-informed campaign promise. Or maybe that shouldn't be surprising either. The more things 'change', the more they stay the same. Last edited by Mizzou B-ball fan : 08-25-2009 at 08:01 AM. |
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08-25-2009, 08:06 AM | #4225 |
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How did we get to the point where a promise to stop using torture in interrogations is an unrealistic campaign promise?
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08-25-2009, 08:11 AM | #4226 | |
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We got to the point where we were forced into an unconventional war not of our choosing and had to figure out how and when the conventional rules of war apply to an enemy that does not subscribe to any of those rules. I'd add that, at some level, we are still trying to figure out that balance eight years later. Last edited by Mizzou B-ball fan : 08-25-2009 at 08:12 AM. |
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08-25-2009, 08:20 AM | #4227 | |
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No kidding. From a purely moralistic sense, it's horribly wrong and should be stopped, end of story. But for people who that isn't good enough and want a "practical" reason, there's a much larger body of evidence that torture provides bad information and shouldn't be used for that reason. I don't see how it's defensible at all. SI
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08-25-2009, 08:28 AM | #4228 | |
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Word. Sad and sorry state on our country.
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08-25-2009, 08:29 AM | #4229 | |
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Because when dealing with an enemy or even an ally of an enemy, no option is ever realistically off the table. Some are preferable to others, but nothing should ever be categorically rejected and most especially not publicly.
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08-25-2009, 08:31 AM | #4230 | |
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That's not completely true. While there were some ugly things that came out in the report released yesterday and there is some bad information received at times, there also was information that confirmed what Cheney had been saying. There were some terror attack plots that were foiled by interrogation techniques termed as torture. I'm not a huge fan of it personally, but they definitely did not come up empty. |
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08-25-2009, 08:39 AM | #4231 |
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Just to show you how far Obama has fallen, a Drudge Report poll shows that 91% of those polled don't think Obama's Presidency can be saved.
Last edited by lungs : 08-25-2009 at 08:40 AM. |
08-25-2009, 08:45 AM | #4232 |
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08-25-2009, 08:50 AM | #4233 |
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isn't trying to cite a drudge report poll for obama like trying to cite a dailykos poll for bush?
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08-25-2009, 09:01 AM | #4234 |
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08-25-2009, 09:01 AM | #4235 |
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lol aaah okay.
well...immediate repairs or just another coffee...
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08-25-2009, 09:16 AM | #4236 |
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Some more fact checks on a couple of recent claims. First, Obama got a little overexcited in his estimte on what a reduction in obesity would do for the Medicare bottom line. It would help, but not nearly as much as he claims.
PolitiFact | Obama says lower obesity rates would save Medicare $1 trillion Senator Sanders also needs to be reeled in a bit. America pays quite a bit on insurance, but we aren't spending nearly as much in comparison to other countries as he would like you to believe. In fact, the average amount spent per capita on health care actually went down between 2007 and 2009 while other countries continued to see increases. PolitiFact | Sanders says U.S. doubles every other country in per capita health spending |
08-25-2009, 09:17 AM | #4237 | |
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Before we jump to conclusions:
Quote:
This is from the NYT article on the front page about the reports. Let's take the CIA's analysis with a grain of salt. This is the agency whose shitty intelligence cost us 5,000 dead Americans and several trillion dollars to create a quasi-theocratic Iranian client state in Iraq. The CIA likes rendition and torture because it's a relatively easy way to procure intel, even if the intel procured has been shown to be faulty or just plain wrong. This as opposed to developing actual human intel on the ground and concentrating on picking up the right people, as opposed to, say, kids. This is the same agency that was caught by surprise by the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the Cold War, had no idea India would conduct nuclear tests, failed to take Al-Qaeda seriously prior to 9/11, repeatedly lied to Congress at least since 2001 and has been known to just make shit up. At some point you have to wonder if their actions make the U.S. less safe, not more. |
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08-25-2009, 09:26 AM | #4238 | ||
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Quote:
It should be noted that MBBF's statement is not an accurate representation of what is on the PolitiFact page linked. You cannot compare WHO statistics to OECD statistics accurately without knowing exactly how they are derived. They may include/exclude different things that affect the valuations. Nevertheless we can probably conclude that in the absence of two sets of numbers from the same organization they are at least open to discussion. Maybe it's comparing Red Delicious apples to Granny Smith apples. And while it's true we aren't spending twice as much as everyone else, we are spending twice as much as either 2/3 or 1/2 (depending on if you adjust for currency value) of the other developed nations (2006 WHO numbers published in 2009 report). In 2007 OECD numbers it was twice as much as 25 of the other 30 developed nations. There's also this little nugget that you overlooked MBBF (to be fair I overlooked it on a quick read-through too the first time): Quote:
So the numbers that you said were 2009 were actually 2006 numbers. Healthcare spending continues to rise.
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Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature. Last edited by DaddyTorgo : 08-25-2009 at 09:33 AM. |
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08-25-2009, 09:34 AM | #4239 | |
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I'll agree. I'm sure we'll hear more about it in the coming days. We should withhold judgement until we get further clarification on what that entails. |
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08-25-2009, 09:36 AM | #4240 | |
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Good catch. I misread that part of it. |
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08-25-2009, 09:40 AM | #4241 |
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No worries. Not trying to play gotcha-ball or anything. Like I said, on my first read-through I missed it also. Hence why I had to go back and edit my post to add in the bit about it.
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08-25-2009, 09:51 AM | #4242 |
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Having said that, Holder's investigation is also disappointing. I don't have anything to link as I'm going off of what I heard on NPR this morning, but I assume the details are on all the major websites.
Basically the investigation will be narrow and will focus on whether or not specific interrogations violated the law. And apparently no technique will be considered "against the law" if the interrogation team asked if a particular technique was OK to use in that case and was told so by HQ or by the various legal counsels (Justice or otherwise). Let's count the problems: 1. So we're going to target just the low-level interrogators, who were clearly carrying out orders to torture with either the explicit or implicit approval of their superiors. What does this accomplish? Especially in the cases where (as noted in the report) the interrogation teams continued to torture even when they felt there was nothing else to be gained from that witness, but they had "pressure from HQ" to do so. I thought Obama said he wasn't going to go after low-level CIA folks who were doing their jobs? 2. So if someone's got a memo from John Yoo saying you can strip the skin off a detainee during an interrogation (example hypothetical), they have a get-out-of-jail-free card? 3. Among the people who think the regime of torture at the CIA was/is a problem, the number of people who think the problem was bottom-up is vanishingly small. This wasn't the result of a few rogue actors, it was clearly the result of a coordinated effort by key people in Justice, the White House and the CIA to put into place a regime of torture and find lawyerly ways to justify it. Many of the principals (Yoo, Bybee, Addington) have come out and said as much. If we have a problem with this regime, shouldn't we be looking at them? What a bunch of ridiculous bullshit. Bill and Hillary Clinton get involved in some shady land deals in who-the-fuck-cares Arkansas and the GOP gets a special prosecutor to spend years and tens of millions of dollars to confirm that yes, Bill Clinton fucked an intern (completely unrelated to the original accusation). A few years later the Bush White House systematically undermines many of the civil liberty tenets upon which this country was founded, potentially breaks a great many laws, and obfuscates this information including just plain lying to Congress and the American people and the best Holder can do is start an investigation to see if Random Joe CIA Torturer waterboarded Random Terrorist a little too much? NEWSFLASH Eric & Barack: WHO THE FUCK CARES?!?! I couldn't give a shit if Joe Random Terrorist got waterboarded. And to be honest I don't really care all that much if Joe Innocent Muslim also got waterboarded. You're missing the fucking point. While each individual instance of torture is bad, surely, it's the overall interrogation program employed by the CIA on the advice of the White House and Justice that was clearly more interested in either a) retribution or b) being Jack Bauer than getting good intel. And by the way, this is the program you're going to, by and large, let them continue with the rendition program? Have none of you learned anything from the huge quantity of investigations on the efficacy of torture over the past years, the overwhelming conclusion of which has been that IT DOESN'T WORK? I'll be honest, in my wildest dreams I would have liked Obama, on Day One, to appoint a Special Investigator to do an in-depth investigation into exactly how many laws were broken, and ethics violations made by the Bush Administration over the past 8 years with a goal of bringing a great many of the principles to court or at least in front of Congress. And I honestly wouldn't have cared if convictions were secured - it would be enough to unearth, without ambiguity, the extent to which these people felt the power of the Presidency was their personal sinecure, to do with as they wished and further to have a bunch of these people's lasting reputations sullied as much as they richly deserve. Now, I never expected such a thing would really happen. But this? This is a slap in the face. Last edited by flere-imsaho : 08-25-2009 at 09:57 AM. |
08-25-2009, 09:55 AM | #4243 | |
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I agree with umm...everything you said here.
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08-25-2009, 10:02 AM | #4244 |
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Yeah. Short of the GOP being taken over by pod people, I can't see me voting for that party for the foreseeable future. But Obama pulling pussy-ass stuff like this weak investigation is the difference between me merely voting for him in four years and me spending my time working on his behalf, donating to the campaign, etc.
Props for that post flere. Last edited by albionmoonlight : 08-25-2009 at 10:02 AM. |
08-25-2009, 10:05 AM | #4245 |
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pod poeple...hahaha
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08-25-2009, 10:56 AM | #4246 |
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I have a friend that was married to a wife who spent money like this.
Deficit, economic shrinkage worse than expected They just finalized their divorce. Last edited by Mizzou B-ball fan : 08-25-2009 at 10:57 AM. |
08-25-2009, 11:13 AM | #4247 |
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I would say that statistically divorce rates rise during recessions period.
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08-25-2009, 11:21 AM | #4248 |
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08-25-2009, 11:48 AM | #4249 | |
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I think that I heard a while back the opposite was true actually. With people making less money or even out of jobs who has the money for a lawyer and to be paying bills on two households (let alone one)? |
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08-25-2009, 11:49 AM | #4250 | |||||
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Quote:
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Just highlighting a few of your points to ask the question....why do you think Obama & Holder would do this? Yes...they might be pussies...but maybe it's a bit more complex. Do you think it unreasonable that they might be helping to cover for a systemic complicitness shared by high ranking Dems during this same time period? Or perhaps they have reluctance based on what they feel they need to do in order to keep the US safe. I know this sounds like rhetoric...but maybe...just maybe...the President actually knows what he's doing. And maybe...that goes for the last one. Quote:
I don't want to come off as gloating at your dissappointment at all...but this does not surprise me one bit. When faced with the decision of... (a) Enforcing ideals at the risk (as informed by career intelligence officials) of not doing "everything allowable" could ...completely end my prospects at a 2nd term if a plot were to happen here on my watch... have significantly negative historical ramifications...send the American public into a bloody vengeance not ever seen...prove Repubs right about my foreign policy...take your pick. or (b) I don't care what these career intelligence wackos think...we are Americans and WE don't do that regardless of the percieved risk to these knuckleheads... I think he made the same decision every one of his predecessors in the last ~30 years would have made (ironically, since Carter...the guy he was compared to by Repubs). Now, I'm not going to debate the merits of torture as I do not believe it "typically" gathers worthwhile information. I do not personally think it should be our policy per se, but also not off the table completely if for no other reason...deterrance. What I would submit is that once again...my distrust in politicians and government's "official" story seems to be once again well deserved. I mean...there has to be a better reason than the "here and now BS" reasons Dems and Repub Presidents alike all tend to take similar foreign policy measures regardless of what they say when they are not in office. |
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