Soccer Thread 2016-17

[ISiddiqui]

re: MLS in CONCACAF (and you may disagree), the Guardian's take:

Ill-disciplined and ill-managed: a guide to USA's Costa Rica debacle | Football | The Guardian

It’s been one of the subplots of the recent wave of MLS expansion that Concacaf players beyond the US have fleshed out the player pool, even as Klinsmann has insisted on the importance of a European finishing school for young American players.

Well, on Tuesday night, one of his young players playing in Germany was tormented by a player who can’t get off the bench for his MLS side. From the moment Montreal Impact’s Johan Venegas clattered into John Brooks in the opening minutes it set the tone for a long night for Brooks. He and fellow center back Omar Gonzalez were repeatedly pulled out of position by Costa Rica.

Still, the US looked to have survived until Vancouver’s Christian Bolaños scooped a perfect cross to the edge of the six yard box for Venegas to glance in the opening goal just before half-time. Bolaños would get a goal of his own in the second half, while his club team-mate Kendall Waston stood firm in blocking out Jozy Altidore at the other end, and by the end of the game NYC FC’s Ronald Matarrita was providing the assist on the fourth goal.

The US, of course, continue to draw on MLS players, and the midfield anchors of Michael Bradley and Jermaine Jones both play in the league, as does the main striker, Altidore. But where Klinsmann sees a structural problem with MLS as a drain on ambition, other Concacaf nations see a resource. And on Tuesday night Costa Rica’s MLS contingent played like a celebrated asset.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Arles

This is a good point. As someone who was extremely involved with youth soccer, played in college and even amateur leagues post college - this is a huge issue in the US. Youth soccer in the US is all about "winning" - esp at the club level. There isn't a focus on ball skills, passing, tactics and teamwork. It's about your 12-year old club team beating your opponent. So, at that age, the best practice is to take your two fastest players, put them up top and try to bombard passes to them. It's all running, conditioning, boot-and-chase and so forth. In addition to the focus on only winning at lower age levels, there's also a complete lack of tactical understanding by club/HS coaches. Most of the coaches don't have an international background, so they propagate this style. It wasn't until I started playing in the SUASL in Scottsdale (has a very high international component), did I even learn European tactics and ball control. My HS coach was a baseball guy stuck coaching soccer and our college coach was a salty old Brit who believed only in conditioning.

We need to do what Iceland did and setup a good youth structure with former European coaches that focus only on skill development at the younger ages. I think it's equally as bad with women's soccer as we would destroy the world if young girls were given more tactical/skill development at the club level. We just have so much better athletes than other countries - so we can bull rush them. But, as better women athletes start playing soccer internationally, our advantage will start to decrease.

This may have been true 20 years ago, but it's less so now. Not only do you have the USDA, you also have multiple clubs near me actually importing Euro's to coach kids as young as 5 (and some are idiots), and the ball skills of young kids is light years past what I remember. Growing up I had an English coach who encouraged hoof it and run, and American coaches who encouraged ball possession, triangles, and constant off-ball movement.

The USMNT doesn't do basic off-ball movement, other than Pulisic and occasionally Wood there are zero diagonal runs or dummy runs intended to pull defenders out of position, we're slow to every loose ball near the 18 because everyone is standing around flat footed, and it's painfully obvious it's Klinsmann and his preferred tactics and personnel holding us back. Fetishizing Europeans instead of actually paying attention to the concepts and on field results is why we're still in this mess. Get him out of there before we waste Pulisic (and Gooch, and Green, and Arriola, and Morris, and Acosta, and Hyndman, and Trapp, and Stanko, and Rubin), who with the exception of Green all spent most of their formative years playing youth soccer in the US.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

The USMNT doesn't do basic off-ball movement, other than Pulisic and occasionally Wood there are zero diagonal runs or dummy runs intended to pull defenders out of position, we're slow to every loose ball near the 18 because everyone is standing around flat footed, and it's painfully obvious it's Klinsmann and his preferred tactics and personnel holding us back. Fetishizing Europeans instead of actually paying attention to the concepts and on field results is why we're still in this mess. Get him out of there before we waste Pulisic (and Gooch, and Green, and Arriola, and Morris, and Acosta, and Hyndman, and Trapp, and Stanko, and Rubin), who with the exception of Green all spent most of their formative years playing youth soccer in the US.

What is most damning is that the players do these things for their club teams. Even Jozy does it for Toronto. So it's not as if they don't know how to do it.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

This may have been true 20 years ago, but it's less so now. Not only do you have the USDA, you also have multiple clubs near me actually importing Euro's to coach kids as young as 5 (and some are idiots), and the ball skills of young kids is light years past what I remember. Growing up I had an English coach who encouraged hoof it and run, and American coaches who encouraged ball possession, triangles, and constant off-ball movement.

That's encouraging, but the current team doesn't have that background for the most part. Let's hope that the next batch of kids has a more well-rounded game.

The USMNT doesn't do basic off-ball movement, other than Pulisic and occasionally Wood there are zero diagonal runs or dummy runs intended to pull defenders out of position, we're slow to every loose ball near the 18 because everyone is standing around flat footed, and it's painfully obvious it's Klinsmann and his preferred tactics and personnel holding us back. Fetishizing Europeans instead of actually paying attention to the concepts and on field results is why we're still in this mess. Get him out of there before we waste Pulisic (and Gooch, and Green, and Arriola, and Morris, and Acosta, and Hyndman, and Trapp, and Stanko, and Rubin), who with the exception of Green all spent most of their formative years playing youth soccer in the US.

Agree completely. We are getting to the point to where some of the younger US players have some international experience and can atleast attempt a more possession game. We need a coach that encourages off-ball movement, possession and spacing.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Arles

That's encouraging, but the current team doesn't have that background for the most part. Let's hope that the next batch of kids has a more well-rounded game.


Agree completely. We are getting to the point to where some of the younger US players have some international experience and can atleast attempt a more possession game. We need a coach that encourages off-ball movement, possession and spacing.

It's just belaboring the point, but every US player, and specifically Jozy, Bradley, Jones, Bedoya, Johnson, Chandler, Brooks, Guzan - who all started and sucked vs Costa Rica - have plenty of European experience. We've seen these specific players play better under other coaches and for their club teams.

I agree we don't have the personnel to play a possession oriented game, but with our speed we don't have to and never did. Counter-attacking and playing in space will only help guys like Pulisic and Gooch provided we actually have a coherent plan and some midfield support. Like ISiddiqui showed, as nice as Ruiz's assist was & as clinical as Campbell's 2 finishes were, the bulk of the work against us was done by MLS players, some of whom can barely even get off the bench for their clubs.

[ISiddiqui]

Fun story... Hoffenheim apparently signed Roberto Firmino in 2011 because their Director of Football discovered him in Football Manager:

Roberto Firmino was discovered by Hoffenheim director of football on Football Manager - Mirror Online

[miami_fan]

Well deserved goal for United. Not sure why decided Arsenal today would be a good day to play for a draw.

[sovereignstar v2]

Two goals for Yaya in his first match after his apology. Strange stuff.

[CrescentMoonie]

Dortmund! Fantastic start.

[Young Drachma]

Hoffenheim should've held onto those three points today, a wasted opportunity to rise up the table. Better than a loss, but it might as well be one given how bad the Hamburger GK was today. Toluca lost, Sassuolo lost and are falling down the table after a hot start and Depor lost yesterday too. Swansea got a point, but felt like we needed more. Relegation seeming more and more sure barring some miracle rest of the year. Perhaps for the best.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Fun story... Hoffenheim apparently signed Roberto Firmino in 2011 because their Director of Football discovered him in Football Manager:

Roberto Firmino was discovered by Hoffenheim director of football on Football Manager - Mirror Online

Dola:

Haha, that's a hoax.

Roberto Firmino - A fairytale from Absurdistan » achtzehn99

[Critch]

Originally Posted by Young Drachma

Better than a loss, but it might as well be one given how bad the Hamburger GK was today.

The Hamburg 1st choice keeper, Rene Adler, is out with an injury so the bad guy will hopefully be back on the bench soon.

Promising for Hamburg is that they set a record for Bundesliga games without scoring (7.5 games, 0 goals) with Bobby Wood as striker, but since he's been out the team they've scored 2 in both games. Drop Djourou, tighten up defensively, and they may even put up a proper fight against relegation.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Fun story... Hoffenheim apparently signed Roberto Firmino in 2011 because their Director of Football discovered him in Football Manager:

Roberto Firmino was discovered by Hoffenheim director of football on Football Manager - Mirror Online

In the late 80s-early 90s, my friends and I valued our football cards, in large part, based on how good the guy was in Tecmo Bowl.

[AlexB]

Man Utd players in the 90s apparently couldn't see each other in their ill-fated, 45 minute only grey kit.

What happens when you go the other way, and make your away kit fluorescent yellow? This happens

FUNNY | Steward Ignores Perfectly Good Bostwick Pass - YouTube

[ISiddiqui]

U.S. Soccer Parts Ways with Jurgen Klinsmann - U.S. Soccer

IT HAPPENED!!! It really fucking happened!!!

[kingfc22]

Hopefully it's not too late. He should have been gone a year ago.

[PilotMan]

It had to happen. I mean, we didn't think it would, but in reality, the way things have been going here, it had to. Now, let's get someone in there who can pump some life into this team.

[ISiddiqui]

TBH, I'm ok with Arena being a 1.5 year stopgap. And then we'll figure out the long term future after we right the ship.

[Easy Mac]

I hope that means Landy is back in the team.

[Arles]

We need to start transitioning to a style that leverages all the young and exciting players coming up the ranks. Play the young guys with a few vets for leadership and let's build for the next 2-4 years.

[bulletsponge]

a new FOF and klinsy fired, its going to be a good week

[MrBug708]

With donovan coming back to the LAG, Keane goingoing, this was always the rumor with Bruce

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

TBH, I'm ok with Arena being a 1.5 year stopgap. And then we'll figure out the long term future after we right the ship.

I mean, why not I guess. He had to go. Shrug.

[RainMaker]

Maybe Sunil should pack his bags and leave too.

[BishopMVP]

I can't believe Arena is using a X formation and playing Player Y over Player Z!!! And the fact he called in XX to the January camp is a joke!

Sorry, just getting ready for next year. Does Arena get a complete pass until he drops a point in a WCQ or can we start criticizing him as soon as the Camp Cupcake friendlies? (Btw, is it weird we don't have friendlies lined up for the end of January yet, or do those normally get scheduled really late?) I am really curious if he chooses a 4-2-3-1, we try a 3-5-2 (I think despite how bad it looked given it the first run out vs Mexico, we have the personnel for it if Cameron is healthy and Yedlin starts opposite Johnson at WB), or I suppose a diamond 4-4-2 is the other option. Looking forward to having some midfield support for the attacking players again!

[CrescentMoonie]

Even as a Dortmund supporter, it's disappointing to see Schmelzer not get a red for the contact with the ref. Every player should get a yellow for any contact at all with the official, maybe even for arguing, but Schmelzer's contact was egregious and borderline attacking.

Meanwhile, the Bundesliga is quietly starting to have a story that could dwarf the Leicester City story in the BPL just last season. RB Leipzig, founded in 2009 and in their first season at the highest tier, is currently 6 points clear (likely 3 at the end of the day) at the top of the table through 12 matches.

[MrBug708]

Wonder if that is the end of Pards

[Easy Mac]

Bob Bradley with his first EPL win. 5-4 over Crystal Palace counts as a win, right.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Bob Bradley with his first EPL win. 5-4 over Crystal Palace counts as a win, right.

That was a crazy game. Down 3-1 and tie the game. Down 4-3 and then two goals in extra time to win it.

[ISiddiqui]

Is it wrong that I'm hoping for one of the Canadian teams playing in the 2nd leg of the Eastern Conference Finals to win decisively over Seattle for MLS Cup simply because I fear for how insufferable Sounders fans will be if they win?

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Is it wrong that I'm hoping for one of the Canadian teams playing in the 2nd leg of the Eastern Conference Finals to win decisively over Seattle for MLS Cup simply because I fear for how insufferable Sounders fans will be if they win?

Everybody who isn's a Sounders fan is rooting for that.

[ISiddiqui]

Sad part is that the players are easy to cheer for (for the most part). Lodeiro and Morris are exactly what the MLS should be aspiring to in its DPs and young players.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Sad part is that the players are easy to cheer for (for the most part). Lodeiro and Morris are exactly what the MLS should be aspiring to in its DPs and young players.

Absolutely. I feel like Seattle and Orlando both are doing things the right way yet root against them constantly due to their fanbases.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Meanwhile, the Bundesliga is quietly starting to have a story that could dwarf the Leicester City story in the BPL just last season. RB Leipzig, founded in 2009 and in their first season at the highest tier, is currently 6 points clear (likely 3 at the end of the day) at the top of the table through 12 matches.

You're missing a HUGE story here - bear in mind that "RB Leipzig" are a hugely controversial club, they've dodged around several restrictions in the German rules in order to get to where they are, they're sponsored by Red Bull hence "RB" - using a sponsor in a club name isn't allowed so they used a technicality to imply the Red Bull rather than stating it, they've also circumvented the democratic aspect of ownership/steering of German clubs by pricing normal fans out of the voting system for such things.

As such while it'd be a huge achievement, they're not the 'minnows' that your original statement implies ... its more akin to Chelsea when they were taken over and instantly catapulted to contenders.

PS - Finally its still early in the season and their fixtures in December look tough to me on paper (esp. away against Bayern (2nd) and home against Hertha (3rd) then Frankfurt (4th) ... all back to back matches), if they're still in the top slot come January then I'll be looking at them more seriously as true contenders ..

[BishopMVP]

Plane crash involving Copa Sudamerica finalist Chapecoense (Brazil) on their way to play in Medellin. Hopefully the initial reports are inaccurate and there are more survivors than 6/81 Brazilian team Chapecoense on board plane that crashed over Colombia – latest | World news | The Guardian

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Plane crash involving Copa Sudamerica finalist Chapecoense (Brazil) on their way to play in Medellin. Hopefully the initial reports are inaccurate and there are more survivors than 6/81 Brazilian team Chapecoense on board plane that crashed over Colombia – latest | World news | The Guardian

From what I read on ESPN this morning, 3 players were among the 5 survivors. One of the reported 6 found passed after rescue.

[Young Drachma]

Que essa seja a última imagem dos nosso guerreiros.#ForçaChape pic.twitter.com/Q1ZxF5h4sV

— Chapecoense (@ChapecoenseReal) November 29, 2016

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

You're missing a HUGE story here - bear in mind that "RB Leipzig" are a hugely controversial club, they've dodged around several restrictions in the German rules in order to get to where they are, they're sponsored by Red Bull hence "RB" - using a sponsor in a club name isn't allowed so they used a technicality to imply the Red Bull rather than stating it, they've also circumvented the democratic aspect of ownership/steering of German clubs by pricing normal fans out of the voting system for such things.

As such while it'd be a huge achievement, they're not the 'minnows' that your original statement implies ... its more akin to Chelsea when they were taken over and instantly catapulted to contenders.

PS - Finally its still early in the season and their fixtures in December look tough to me on paper (esp. away against Bayern (2nd) and home against Hertha (3rd) then Frankfurt (4th) ... all back to back matches), if they're still in the top slot come January then I'll be looking at them more seriously as true contenders ..

What Marc said. Though them winning the league somehow would surely be a great way to solidify their most hated status.

I root for Hoffenheim and the matchup between the two was dubbed "El Plastico" at the start of the year, because Hoffenheim is funded by a corporate magnate too.

[Critch]

Reserves and injured players who didnt make the trip in the changing rooms today. Serious contrast to YD/DC's video clip above.

[ISiddiqui]

Really sad news . I heard that National has asked that Chapecoense be given the Copa Sudamerica title.

[ISiddiqui]

Interesting stuff going on in the lower US leagues. The NY Cosmos, basically the driving force of the NASL (D2) has announced it's folding. It appears that it is taking the NASL with it. Rumors are saying that the remaining NASL teams will be joining the USL (D3) next season, with the USL becoming the D2 league.

Of course this also means the USL will have ~40 teams next season. Maybe they'll have a USL 1 and USL 2, but it is probably more likely to have an Eastern Conference and Western Conference of 20 teams each that don't meet until the USL Championship. There are also rumors of adding a Central Conference (lower level soccer in the US has to deal mostly with money regarding travel as the country is so massive)

[whomario]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Really sad news . I heard that National has asked that Chapecoense be given the Copa Sudamerica title.

PSG also reportedly donating 40 million € while brazilian clubs as well as Benfica and others have offered free-of-charge loan players with all salaries paid by the offering club.

Insane tragedy. Was actually following the team quite a bit as i managed them in FM 2 versions back and found it pretty neat they found such real life success, now this

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Interesting stuff going on in the lower US leagues. The NY Cosmos, basically the driving force of the NASL (D2) has announced it's folding. It appears that it is taking the NASL with it. Rumors are saying that the remaining NASL teams will be joining the USL (D3) next season, with the USL becoming the D2 league.

Of course this also means the USL will have ~40 teams next season. Maybe they'll have a USL 1 and USL 2, but it is probably more likely to have an Eastern Conference and Western Conference of 20 teams each that don't meet until the USL Championship. There are also rumors of adding a Central Conference (lower level soccer in the US has to deal mostly with money regarding travel as the country is so massive)

It's a shame that the NeoCosmos killed NASL again. They had a real commissioner, an offer from MLS to play the role that USL is doing now, and the best of the markets that MLS hadn't grabbed up yet. Instead of staying the course, the owners were talked into trying to be an alternant D1 league, the commissioner was replaced with a guy who was part of the scam football league (UFL), and now they're gone.

[CrescentMoonie]

The #nycosmos offices. pic.twitter.com/TGKwBo04fz

— Andre Tessier (@AndreT_NY) November 30, 2016

[ISiddiqui]

HA! Fantastic!

[bhlloy]

That shouldn't be a goal - if you are three yards offside and you stop the defender from getting there, you are interfering with play juuust a little bit

[bhlloy]

DOLA - that does maybe even out a bit with Toronto's first which had definite suspicions of handball

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by whomario

PSG also reportedly donating 40 million € while brazilian clubs as well as Benfica and others have offered free-of-charge loan players with all salaries paid by the offering club.

Paris Saint-Germain deny big donation to Chapecoense after plane crash - ESPN FC

[CrescentMoonie]

Toronto-Montreal was as entertaining as it gets. Too bad there wasn't a competent center ref on the field to keep it under control.

[ISiddiqui]

What a great game and amazing atmosphere at BMO Field as well! MLS Cup is going to fun.

(oh, and bhlloy, I didn't notice it at first, but yeah, Oduro definitely got away with that on Montreal's 2nd goal)