Chaos in Baltimore

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by rowech

Even if Gray was white, what happened was wrong. Doesn't mean the articles you posted aren't awful but they don't give an excuse as to what has happened in many of these cases of late. The issue isn't race to me -- it's about police officers who are abusing their authority, shooting first, asking questions later. The whole, better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6 saying applies. I undertand that to a point, but we cannot have police officers going around carrying out their own sort of justice -- they are not responsible for that part of the system..

I agree with this. I think the race stuff just makes a better media narrative and helps certain people achieve power and raise money. It unfortunately causes a divide and focuses on the wrong things and thus positive change will never be gained.

[Noop]

I practice criminal defense. If anyone really thinks that police are in these neighborhoods because people call police I have some beachfront property in Idaho I'd like to sell you.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Noop

I practice criminal defense. If anyone really thinks that police are in these neighborhoods because people call police I have some beachfront property in Idaho I'd like to sell you.

Perfect, an expert, why the long delays when people do call 911?

[Edward64]

Alright CNN. Can you move to some other news now?

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Perfect, an expert, why the long delays when people do call 911?

Not an expert. But there seems to be this idea that police do not racially profile black and latino neighborhoods. This system at all levels is inherently bias and prejudice against blacks and latinos. However, judging by your comments you seem to be of the camp that thinks that sort of stuff never happens or if it does its in small sample sizes.

You are wrong. It is systematic and disgusting. The prison industrial complex, the state attorney, judges, and the police all benefit from black and latino profiling.

[Dutch]

I have not even discussed profiling. I believe it happens and have seen it in traffic stops. I think they would be wise to employ more cops in areas with more crime. Would you agree with that?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Noop

Not an expert. But there seems to be this idea that police do not racially profile black and latino neighborhoods. This system at all levels is inherently bias and prejudice against blacks and latinos. However, judging by your comments you seem to be of the camp that thinks that sort of stuff never happens or if it does its in small sample sizes.

You are wrong. It is systematic and disgusting. The prison industrial complex, the state attorney, judges, and the police all benefit from black and latino profiling.

Why do Asians get preferential treatment in our justice system?

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Dutch

You think the cops then are like, "Woooo! We got a live one, lock 'n load!" Fuck no, they are thinking, "Fuck, I have to go back into that shithole...lock 'n load..."

I'll repost this one: What Cop T-Shirts Tell Us About Police Culture

I think some cops do indeed get off on busting heads and bullying suspects who can't do shit about it. Not all of them. Not even most of them. But enough of them.

And as posited in the Simon interview, there is an incentive to bust as many people as possible even if "salaried." More arrests = more promotions = higher salaries.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Would you agree with that?

No

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I'll repost this one: What Cop T-Shirts Tell Us About Police Culture

I think some cops do indeed get off on busting heads and bullying suspects who can't do shit about it. Not all of them. Not even most of them. But enough of them.

And as posited in the Simon interview, there is an incentive to bust as many people as possible even if "salaried." More arrests = more promotions = higher salaries.

Every time somebody says "some", I will agree.

More arrests = more promotions = higher salaries could also be (and probably should be) construed as More danger = more promotions = higher salaries. We should not be paying these people to eat donuts and park in Mayberry, USA when people in the inner city are getting slaughtered (not an exaggeration) by gangs every day.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Noop

No

Where would you deploy the cops then?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Noop

Not an expert. But there seems to be this idea that police do not racially profile black and latino neighborhoods.

There seems to be this idea that neighborhoods are profiled on the basis of race rather than on the basis of behavior.

Hell, anybody who ever frequented some of Atlanta's more notorious country nightclubs knows about "profiling" within a couple of minutes of pulling out of the parking lot.

[Buccaneer]

It's a no-win situation. On one hand, it is common sense to contain criminal activities from spreading toward white/asian/tourist/industrial/commercial/higher socio-economic/whatever areas. But on the other hand, LEO/governmental-controlled violence begat violence and does not help to make conditions better.

I have always believed in a mentoring/parental responsibility/accountability solution (as talked about in the cnn.com article, for example), no matter the socio-demographics or ethnicity. I do admit it can be very challenging and most would rather sit in their comfortable chairs (and pass blame or responsibility) than risk making a difference in another person's/family's life but I admire those that have done so and will continue to do so.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

There seems to be this idea that neighborhoods are profiled on the basis of race rather than on the basis of behavior

This. If I were a police chief and had 100 guys on a shift and 75 crimes happened in Neighborhood #1 and 25 crimes happened in Neighborhood #2 and 2 crimes happened in Neighborhood 3...I'm not splitting my cops up in thirds.

(EDIT: And yes, I realize I'm letting 2 crimes go untouched...probably the wrong two and I'll get fired for it.)

[Noop]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

There seems to be this idea that neighborhoods are profiled on the basis of race rather than on the basis of behavior.

Hell, anybody who ever frequented some of Atlanta's more notorious country nightclubs knows about "profiling" within a couple of minutes of pulling out of the parking lot.

Take your analysis further before reaching that conclusion.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

It's a no-win situation. On one hand, it is common sense to contain criminal activities from spreading toward white/asian/tourist/industrial/commercial/higher socio-economic/whatever areas. But on the other hand, LEO/governmental-controlled violence begat violence and does not help to make conditions better.

I have always believed in a mentoring/parental responsibility/accountability solution (as talked about in the cnn.com article, for example), no matter the socio-demographics or ethnicity. I do admit it can be very challenging and most would rather sit in their comfortable chairs (and pass blame or responsibility) than risk making a difference in another person's/family's life but I admire those that have done so and will continue to do so.

I have long suspected you to be a white supremacist Bucc but over the last few years I am happy to know that I was completely wrong and baseless in that belief. You appear to be fair and honest in your assessments of this situation and situations like it. If you ever go to law school and become a judge give me a shout I will be more than happy to donate to your campaign.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Noop

I have long suspected you to be a white supremacist Bucc

It was the "athletic QB" question, wasn't it.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Noop

I have long suspected you to be a white supremacist Bucc but over the last few years I am happy to know that I was completely wrong and baseless in that belief. You appear to be fair and honest in your assessments of this situation and situations like it. If you ever go to law school and become a judge give me a shout I will be more than happy to donate to your campaign.

Thank you, sir. I have never been in anyway connected to white supremacy (which I abhor) but I apologize if I had caused that perception in the past.

By the way, my son (going to be a senior next year) is somewhat interested in pursuing a law degree. If he does, I'll solicit you for a contribution to defray college costs.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Noop

Take your analysis further before reaching that conclusion.

48 years of living in the real world & observing what happens around me -- and being honest about what the evidence illustrates -- provides more than ample analysis to reach the realistic conclusion.

Anything else is, afaic, people making excuses for realities they don't care for.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Thank you, sir. I have never been in anyway connected to white supremacy (which I abhor) but I apologize if I had caused that perception in the past.

By the way, my son (going to be a senior next year) is somewhat interested in pursuing a law degree. If he does, I'll solicit you for a contribution to defray college costs.

I sincerely hope that God sees fit to bless me with the ability to assist in the form of some scholarship when the time comes. If your son is anything like you the profession of law would benefit tremendously.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Noop

I have long suspected you to be a white supremacist Bucc but over the last few years I am happy to know that I was completely wrong and baseless in that belief.

Well, if nothing else, at least it's nice to know this so-called 'profiling' is a human problem and not a white man problem.

Sad to see nobody else crossed off your list though...

[Mo.Raider]

Congrats on the law degree Noop! When I joined FOF back in 2000 I think you were just entering college. Man time flies.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Noop

Not an expert. But there seems to be this idea that police do not racially profile black and latino neighborhoods. This system at all levels is inherently bias and prejudice against blacks and latinos. However, judging by your comments you seem to be of the camp that thinks that sort of stuff never happens or if it does its in small sample sizes.

You are wrong. It is systematic and disgusting. The prison industrial complex, the state attorney, judges, and the police all benefit from black and latino profiling.

I have no doubt that profiling happens and there are certain neighborhoods that are targeted, but the question us WHY?

The police didn't just wake up one day and decide to bully these areas. What happens if these areas are left alone? Does crime then run rampant or do the citizens the matters into their own hands or are there then complaints that the police don't show up and aren't a presence?

I don't think the Baltimore situation is a great one to the " shoot first" mentality because that isn't what happened here. If these 6 are found guilty I hope they fry.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Mo.Raider

Congrats on the law degree Noop! When I joined FOF back in 2000 I think you were just entering college. Man time flies.

Thank you. I still can't believe people trust me to defend them sometimes.

Originally Posted by Lathum

I have no doubt that profiling happens and there are certain neighborhoods that are targeted, but the question us WHY?

The police didn't just wake up one day and decide to bully these areas. What happens if these areas are left alone? Does crime then run rampant or do the citizens the matters into their own hands or are there then complaints that the police don't show up and aren't a presence?

I don't think the Baltimore situation is a great one to the " shoot first" mentality because that isn't what happened here. If these 6 are found guilty I hope they fry.

No idea.

[RainMaker]

Maybe something to do with probability.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Maybe something to do with probability.

That's a different degree path.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Noop

No idea.

First off, congrats on the degree and practice, that is amazing.

Now I don't think anyone has any idea, but y point is more could you imagine if the police just gave up these areas for dead and cut bait? The outcry would be enormous. So you sometimes have the perfect storm where someone is killed under questionable circumstances. So which is the lesser of 2 evils?

[RainMaker]

It's really a no-win situation. After a violent weekend here in Chicago there are never-ending cries for more police on the street.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I have always believed in a mentoring/parental responsibility/accountability solution (as talked about in the cnn.com article, for example), no matter the socio-demographics or ethnicity. I do admit it can be very challenging and most would rather sit in their comfortable chairs (and pass blame or responsibility) than risk making a difference in another person's/family's life but I admire those that have done so and will continue to do so.

I still believe parenting is the number one factor in a lot of this. Sure there are bad seeds but for the most part, good parents create good kids.

My ex who was a teacher on the South Side for years would always say the problem wasn't money in schools, it wasn't the kids, it was the fact that the parents just didn't give a shit. She'd call a parent because a kid was doing poorly and the parent just didn't care. Acted like it was her problem.

It shouldn't surprise anyone that the cultures that have strong parenting tend to have success. Just look at the Asian community in this country.

[nol]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I agree with this. I think the race stuff just makes a better media narrative and helps certain people achieve power and raise money. It unfortunately causes a divide and focuses on the wrong things and thus positive change will never be gained.

Precisely. For example, if you ask people to estimate what proportion of certain demographics are on welfare, those who most grossly overestimate the percentage of African Americans are significantly more likely to have negative feelings about welfare.

In a similar vein, those who believe African Americans account for a much higher proportion of violent crimes are the ones most in favor of militarizing the police force.

[Dutch]

Haha...so in a nutshell, what you are trying to say is...."Those effin white people.".

[albionmoonlight]

Activists on the left and the right have incentives to downplay the much-higher-than-realized incident of extreme poverty in the White community.

[oversimplification]
On the left, it is an inconvenient fact that undercuts the message that White people have everything and Black people have nothing.

On the right, the idea that poverty is a "Black problem" keeps poor White people from supporting policies to help alleviate poverty.
[/oversimplification]

If, however, you've ever spent time in certain rural Southern towns, you can see that White poverty is just as entrenched and seems just as hopeless and intractable as inner city Black poverty.

[Dutch]

Having grown up in Columbus, MS, I've seen it and lived it. Their plight is not in the news however. As stated, welfare is a sustainment...you simply cannot elevate welfare without generating even more stagnation.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by nol

Precisely. For example, if you ask people to estimate what proportion of certain demographics are on welfare, those who most grossly overestimate the percentage of African Americans are significantly more likely to have negative feelings about welfare.

In a similar vein, those who believe African Americans account for a much higher proportion of violent crimes are the ones most in favor of militarizing the police force.

They do. This is not a subjective question. Either you understand crime statistics or you are wrong.

FBI — Table 43

I am not in favor of militarizing the police force either.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Having grown up in Columbus, MS, I've seen it and lived it. Their plight is not in the news however. As stated, welfare is a sustainment...you simply cannot elevate welfare without generating even more stagnation.

So reducing welfare is the answer to stagnation? How exactly would that work?

[Dutch]

Are you asking me if I would have people starve to death or be homeless? No, I dont support that. I understand the basic requirement of welfare. I admit I am at a loss on the stats. Are there people on welfare that have become institutionalized into it and refuse to leave it? I think there are. Those are the people I would want to reach and explain that raising your kids to only know government handouts is unhealthy in the long run. For those who truly need it, I'm with you, I'm absolute against hurting them further.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Dutch

The "state" is not abusing "black people" (as I assume this is to mean). Are there cases of abuse? Absolutely. Should they be punished for abusing? Yes. Is the state sanctioning abuse? No. Why is this so hard to understand?

Of course this is state sanctioned abuse. The police work for the state. If there is abuse, the state is responsible. And there has been quite an obvious trend towards profiling being part of the state sponsored repertoire for dealing with minorities. QED.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I have no doubt that profiling happens and there are certain neighborhoods that are targeted, but the question us WHY?

The police didn't just wake up one day and decide to bully these areas. What happens if these areas are left alone? Does crime then run rampant or do the citizens the matters into their own hands or are there then complaints that the police don't show up and aren't a presence?

A lot of voices have mentioned that some while ago the police acted like members of the community. They would interact with citizens and in that way, gain the trust of the folks who lived in that community. At some point, maybe with the "get tough on crime" stuff, the police kind of separated themselves from that sort of community interaction stuff. This leads to mistrust by the community and feelings of "them v. us" on behalf of the police. That makes it easier to profile and target neighborhoods unfairly. The community interaction policing doesn't just lead to trust by the community for the police, but also by the police for the community. At least that's my explanation.

[nol]

Originally Posted by panerd

They do. This is not a subjective question. Either you understand crime statistics or you are wrong.

FBI — Table 43

I am not in favor of militarizing the police force either.

Well, of course that's the one statistic you know and are ready to jump in with any time you see anything even tangentially related. Unfortunately, as with my previous paragraph, that was related to the degree of overestimation; the larger one thinks that share to be compared to reality, the more likely he/she is to support harsher sentencing laws, increasing police spending, and a host of other things.

[AENeuman]

At the end of the day, while sipping my Vieux Carre, I'm glad my path to stability, security and safety came from just enough effort to feel like I earned it.

[Dutch]

I wont even pretend to know what that is, AE.

[muns]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

A lot of voices have mentioned that some while ago the police acted like members of the community. They would interact with citizens and in that way, gain the trust of the folks who lived in that community. At some point, maybe with the "get tough on crime" stuff, the police kind of separated themselves from that sort of community interaction stuff. This leads to mistrust by the community and feelings of "them v. us" on behalf of the police. That makes it easier to profile and target neighborhoods unfairly. The community interaction policing doesn't just lead to trust by the community for the police, but also by the police for the community. At least that's my explanation.

Baltimore Police have been trying that for years. They even took cars away from patrolmen so that they would have to walk the neighborhoods. What doesn't get light is that the community wants nothing to do with the cops no matter what their intention is. As much as some of the police force want to try to establish those relationships, it doesn't happen due to fear of what has occurred in the past. Its just a never ending circle.

[muns]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Of course this is state sanctioned abuse. The police work for the state. If there is abuse, the state is responsible. And there has been quite an obvious trend towards profiling being part of the state sponsored repertoire for dealing with minorities. QED.

Disagree to a point. It might be considered state sponsored here in Maryland and in Baltimore because the state (the white governor) doesn't want to tell the folks (black city government) what to do because its bad press, and its bad for political alignment. Nobody wants this crap to actually happen, but trying to fix things rocks the boat to peoples political futures (both black and white) and we cant have that. People might get offended and not vote for them.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by nol

Well, of course that's the one statistic you know and are ready to jump in with any time you see anything even tangentially related. Unfortunately, as with my previous paragraph, that was related to the degree of overestimation; the larger one thinks that share to be compared to reality, the more likely he/she is to support harsher sentencing laws, increasing police spending, and a host of other things.

Sorry for letting those pesky facts get in the way of a good rant! Accounting for 50% of all murders isn't disproportionate to the population, its racist!

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by muns

Disagree to a point. It might be considered state sponsored here in Maryland and in Baltimore because the state (the white governor) doesn't want to tell the folks (black city government) what to do because its bad press, and its bad for political alignment. Nobody wants this crap to actually happen, but trying to fix things rocks the boat to peoples political futures (both black and white) and we cant have that. People might get offended and not vote for them.

I appreciate some Baltimore people coming on here to try to explain the crazy political and social situation that exists both in the city and the state. At times, it almost seems like the Baltimore political establishment holds more power than the state government. No one wants to buck the city political figures because the voting power in Baltimore is so important to retaining power at the state level.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by nol

Well, of course that's the one statistic you know and are ready to jump in with any time you see anything even tangentially related. Unfortunately, as with my previous paragraph, that was related to the degree of overestimation; the larger one thinks that share to be compared to reality, the more likely he/she is to support harsher sentencing laws, increasing police spending, and a host of other things.

You brought up the statistic. He just posted a link to the actual numbers.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Haha...so in a nutshell, what you are trying to say is...."Those effin white people.".

They do hold all the power in Baltimore, right?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

So reducing welfare is the answer to stagnation? How exactly would that work?

I think the problem has been a push to get more people on welfare and larger benefits for those on welfare. I think the solution should be "how do we get people to a point where they don't need welfare?".

Now that's a huge issue that involves many different solution. Better access to trade schools and secondary education. Holding parents responsible for their children. And so on.

[Dutch]

I hear inner cities are looking for cops that better represent the community. Anybody on welfare in those areas want to give the police force a go?

[nol]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You brought up the statistic. He just posted a link to the actual numbers.

Holy cow you're dumb. Those numbers have nothing to with what was described. Someone who believes 80% of murders are committed by black people is much more likely to support "tough on crime" policies than someone who has a more correct estimate, even when you control for everything else.