2007 MLB Playoffs Thread

[LloydLungs]

Geez, what an obvious call. What could they possibly be so angry about?

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Logan

You know, it's really Melvin's fault that the fans are throwing crap. If he didn't come out to argue a completely perfect call, the fans wouldn't have had the time to get angry about it. And since they clearly don't understand the rules, they think they have the right to be pissed.

A part of me slightly wishes that an empty bottle drilled Sager in the head during his report.

Yeah, fools come to the ballpark and get arrested. Talk about a rough night. I bet they'll think they should get a refund. Or they'll say "you didn't get the other people who threw stuff."

That video screen is freakin' massive.

[Galaril]

Wow these D-back fans at the stadium .......get a grip. Their team goes down 2-1 in the 2nd inning and they start booing their Cy Young contending pitcher and now they are throwing thrash on the field. This is what I expect with Yankee fans in NY not Phoenix!

[dacman]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

There's no one on this team left from that '01 DBacks World Series squad is there?

Not unless you count Randy Johnson.

[Young Drachma]

Oh I meant to say this about Game 3 of the NLDS in Denver.

I HATE Rally towels.

Worst baseball idea ever.

In hockey, I get it. It makes sense. And I actually don't. But...hockey crowds are loud and obnxious anyway. So I'm cool with it.

But baseball? It's just blocking my view of the game.

[Logan]

I hate any form of celebration that doesn't include your voice or banging your hands together.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Darned good smart baseball play back there by Cirillo.
I don't think it'll amount to anything significant, but it was a nice smart play.

Meanwhile, as to why the fans might be a tad upset, that looked to me more like something that wouldn't be called more often than not since he was in clearly in contact with the base. By the changes to the rules over the years I suppose it might well have been rulebook correct but if you wanted to give the benefit of the doubt for innocence then Upton could have been considered to have simply made a clumsy tumble after a awkward slide.

Do I think that's what it was? Hell no.

But I also think it was as much a case of an umpire wanting to make a call as anything else. But I think that quite a bit with umpires, officials, refs, etc., so at this point in sports it really doesn't stand out to me all that much either.

[Young Drachma]

Thunderstix suck too.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Nothing sucks worse than the @#^$@$ wave.

[Young Drachma]

Good work, Hurdle.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Meanwhile, as to why the fans might be a tad upset, that looked to me more like something that wouldn't be called more often than not since he was in clearly in contact with the base. By the changes to the rules over the years I suppose it might well have been rulebook correct but if you wanted to give the benefit of the doubt for innocence then Upton could have been considered to have simply made a clumsy tumble after a awkward slide.

Do I think that's what it was? Hell no.

But I also think it was as much a case of an umpire wanting to make a call as anything else. But I think that quite a bit with umpires, officials, refs, etc., so at this point in sports it really doesn't stand out to me all that much either.

Sorry Jon, but I strongly disagree. The Mets lost a game on the same play towards the beginning of September (little did we know how important that single game would be). A slow grounder was hit to short, the tying run was on 3rd with one out, and Marlon Anderson went in hard to 2nd. There was no chance to double up Reyes, with the combination of the soft hit and a soft throw to the base. But when he came up in his slide, he stuck his forearm out to make contact with the 2B. Absolutely a stupid play, which absolutely cost them the game because of the combination of factors (Reyes was about 2 feet from 1st at the time of contact), but it was still the right call.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Darned good smart baseball play back there by Cirillo.
I don't think it'll amount to anything significant, but it was a nice smart play.

Meanwhile, as to why the fans might be a tad upset, that looked to me more like something that wouldn't be called more often than not since he was in clearly in contact with the base. By the changes to the rules over the years I suppose it might well have been rulebook correct but if you wanted to give the benefit of the doubt for innocence then Upton could have been considered to have simply made a clumsy tumble after a awkward slide.

Do I think that's what it was? Hell no.

But I also think it was as much a case of an umpire wanting to make a call as anything else. But I think that quite a bit with umpires, officials, refs, etc., so at this point in sports it really doesn't stand out to me all that much either.

I think it was the right call and one I think the ump had to make. (one of those control things. You don't make that call, I don't think Drew is gonna like what happens when a Rockie slides in. It's better to make the correct call there and set the tone for the entire series)

I agree 100% about the Cirillo comment. That's a winning play right there. It didn't amount to anything, but it shows why the DBacks are great in one run games. Screw trying to get the guy in from second. Get more baserunners with your dangerous hitters coming up to the plate. It was a terrific play.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I agree 100% about the Cirillo comment. That's a winning play right there. It didn't amount to anything, but it shows why the DBacks are great in one run games. Screw trying to get the guy in from second. Get more baserunners with your dangerous hitters coming up to the plate. It was a terrific play.

You know how you can be sure it was a great play?

It's something you would never see a Yankee do.

[Galaril]

People throwing shit on the field the cops should arrest them fine them for littering among other things. It got to piss you off. The poor guys many look like retirees running around picking up thrash and beer bottles all over the field that THEIR own fans are throwing on the field. Now I am rooting for the Rockies to sweep these A-holes. Being I am moving out to Denver next year a question the Colorado Rocky fans on here. Are the Rockies and D-backs BIG rivalsor is it a Denver Phoenix animosity thing? It sure seems like more than just they are in the same division.

[Young Drachma]

No, it's not really a rivalry because they don't play in baseball cities. It should be in baseball terms, given that the DBacks are the closest NL team to the Rockies and the whole division thing, but..it's a long ways away from anything resembling a rivalry.

The cities are 910 miles apart, so they're not physically close at all, despite their baseball closeness.

[JonInMiddleGA]

As I said earlier, it might very well have been the right call by the current rulebook.

But I enjoyed this game a whole lot more.
http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseb...10_08_1973.stm

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

No, it's not really a rivalry because they don't play in baseball cities. It should be in baseball terms, given that the DBacks are the closest NL team to the Rockies and the whole division thing, but..it's a long ways away from anything resembling a rivalry.

The cities are 910 miles apart, so they're not physically close at all, despite their baseball closeness.

That's mostly true. However, within 910 miles of Denver, you only have 4 other major cities and two of them are not in the same region (KC and Dallas). You pick a city back east and go 910 miles, you would have covered 7 states and about 30 cities.

[Young Drachma]

I think the sparsity and ruralness makes it harder for baseball to gain a foothold out here like it does on the east where there are a glut of teams.

[TroyF]

I'll disagree a lot with my fellow Coloradoans.

The Rockies/DBacks has always been a rivalry. A pretty big one. They came in a bit after us but we were both still the new kids on the block. The Dodgers/Padres/Giants have their own little thing going, the Rockies/DBacks have had theirs for awhile. This includes numerous bench clearing brawls over the years.

I'll also REALLY disagree with Dark Cloud on the "baseball town" comment. The Rockies have been in the league 15 years. They have had a lower than league average attendance 3 times. The last three years. Keep in mind, this isn't a team like Florida or Arizona that has had success. Before this season, the Rockies had 3 winning seasons in 14 years and had never won more than 83 baseball games in a single season. They finished 4th or 5th in the NL West NINE consecutive seasons.

And management raised ticket prices, sold off players and essentially told the fans to go to hell. Finally, people had enough and the last three years happened. The fans of Denver were DYING a slow death because of this. This is a professional sports town. It's a Broncos town first and foremost, but any team we have that makes an attempt will be rewaded with a ton of fans. Passionate fans. If management does't screw this up, this team will draw 3.2 to 3.6 million fans a year. Only the big market Mets, Yankees, Angels and Dodgers alongwith the baseball crazed St. Louis Cardinals will draw more than us. (and we'd compete with the Cardinals)

Again, it's the only sad part of this incredible run for me. I'd say there is an 85% chance ownership is going to blowup this team. Then when the fans don't show up, they'll blame us for lack of support again. (you'd seriously have to be in Colorado to understand how poor this ownership has been)

[Young Drachma]

Denver is a football town with a hockey team, a basketball team and a baseball fetish and a great looking ballpark.

It's not a baseball town, though.

Attendance doesn't reflect what I'm talking about solely, it's about whether baseball resonates throughout the culture and given the sprawled nature of such things, a climate that doesn't exactly invite baseball with open arms in the spring and all measure of other factors...Denver has far more in common with Toronto related to its love for baseball (the Jays drew extremely well until the team started to fly south permanently) than uttering the names of venerable baseball markets such as St. Louis.

The Cardinals sell out day games in MAY that don't matter. That's a completely different world and having lived there for six years, I saw it up close and personal. Denver can't carry St. Louis' jock strap when it comes to that stuff. The crowds are far more composed of hockey fans dressed as baseball fans. Die hards are obviously there and that's not who I'm talking about. The average fan in a "baseball city" can cite a bevy of random facts about their team.

The Rockies haven't been around long enough for that sort of madness or more like, they haven't experienced enough success for that. This run has Miracle Rox written all over it and so long as they don't follow the fire sale method, it'll be something fans can hold onto for years to come. Hopefully, rather than broadcasting on the video board and milking it for the next decade, they get to work creating new memories and awesome experience. That's how you cultivate a fan base and build a baseball city. I'm not convinced that their attendance numbers don't have a lot to do with diehard fans of other teams coming to games. But even still, the support issue was never in doubt -- at least for me -- because I know how passionate people in the city are for teams that bear their name and who win...or in some cases, just teams that bear their name.

The fan base is decidedly minor league in its composition and a largely majority didn't grow up with baseball -- even though the Zephyrs/Bears were here for a long while -- it's not the same as growing up with a major league team and so, it'll take a while for the team to develop a die-hard fan base. It's families with kids who go out to the ballpark for the day for something to do, it's not folks who bleed purple and black and live and die by every pitch. But I wasn't expecting that, it was just an observation.

Given its the only major league baseball team for close to 700 miles, the fact that they draw well at times isn't some big surprise for a city that freakin' supports its indoor lacrosse team like they're the New York Rangers or something.

They might like sports. Folks know the names and all that. But I don't think its anything close to par with the way that fans of other cities love baseball. It's not a baseball city....yet. But that doesn't mean it can't be or that it shouldn't be. It's just not there yet.

But 14 years isn't an eternity and it takes time to cultivate that, so it wasn't a knock..just an observation and probably a healthy heap of east coast bias. Oh well.

[TroyF]

If you had bothered to read a word I said, you'd know that my point was the Rockies WERE selling out games in May that didn't matter. Hell, for 11 years, the Rockies were selling out SEPTEMBER games where we were 15+ games out of a playoff spot.

You addressed a lot of points, many of which I disagree with.

1) Other teams fans may help sell out Coors, but it doesn't explain how the 2001 Rockies, a 73 win team, played their final series of the year against the Milwaukee Brewers, a 68 win team, and drew 111k fans.

2) Yes, we sell out professional lacrosse. We sell out arena football. And you know what? If you put the fans with season tickets in those sports to a test, they'd be more knowledgeable and passionate about the Mammoth and Crush than a majority of their counterparts across the country. We don't just "go" to games for an event. Denver fans go to cheer and are extremely knowledgeable about the sports they spend their cash on.

3) I understand the culture of St. Louis. (you'll note I said baseball crazed ST. Louis in my post) Yes, it takes time to build a culture. 14 years isn't an eternity. But what you are failing to see is that this town has been abused by the Rockies for 14 years and the fans, for the most part, have still overcome it. They've been able to get some sort of culture of the game built up without having a worthwhile team to cheer for. You are right, it isn't just about attendance. It's about the buzz in the town the team creates when it does well or when the fans are disgusted. There is true passion for the Rockies by a lot of Denver fans despite all the factors you mentioned. It IS a baseball town. Sure, it has room for improvement, but it is without a doubt a baseball town.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Wow these D-back fans at the stadium .......get a grip. Their team goes down 2-1 in the 2nd inning and they start booing their Cy Young contending pitcher and now they are throwing thrash on the field. This is what I expect with Yankee fans in NY not Phoenix!

Really? Because I was at Fenway a few weeks ago and was looking for batteries -- I was told they don't sell them because the fans have a little problem with throwing them on the field. Yet, at Yankee Stadium, they don't have that problem. I've never seen anything thrown on the field at Yankee Stadium by fans, except for homeruns hit by the opposing team. Considering that happened a lot this year, maybe that's where you got that impression.

And, I always find it interesting when people complain about the huge coverage the Yankees get (which I, although I'm a Yankee fan, find a bit outrageous-- I mean, the Joe Toree saga should not have top billing over the playoffs period), yet find a way to take a dig at the Yankees even though the story has absolutely nothing to do with them. This is especially true of Boston fans (and some Met fans). It's an unnatural obsession that I don't get. Your team is about to win the World Series-- enjoy that. I just don't get the obsession--but that's a rant for another time, along with the rant about how some Red Sox fans are just as arrogant and cocky as the worst of the Yankee fans.

In all seriousness, though, I don't understand how the fans could be so stupid so as to do that in a playoff game. Classless.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Wow these D-back fans at the stadium .......get a grip. Their team goes down 2-1 in the 2nd inning and they start booing their Cy Young contending pitcher and now they are throwing thrash on the field. This is what I expect with Yankee fans in NY not Phoenix!

Really? Because I was at Fenway a few weeks ago and was looking for batteries -- I was told they don't sell them because the fans have a little problem with throwing them on the field. Yet, at Yankee Stadium, they don't have that problem. I've never seen anything thrown on the field at Yankee Stadium by fans, except for homeruns hit by the opposing team. Considering that happened a lot this year, maybe that's where you got that impression.

And, I always find it interesting when people complain about the huge coverage the Yankees get (which I, although I'm a Yankee fan, find a bit outrageous-- I mean, the Joe Toree saga should not have top billing over the playoffs period), yet find a way to take a dig at the Yankees even though the story has absolutely nothing to do with them. This is especially true of Boston fans (and some Met fans). It's an unnatural obsession that I don't get. Your team is about to win the World Series-- enjoy that. I just don't get the obsession--but that's a rant for another time, along with the rant about how some Red Sox fans are just as arrogant and cocky as the worst of the Yankee fans.

In all seriousness, though, I don't understand how the fans could be so stupid so as to do that in a playoff game. Classless.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Wow these D-back fans at the stadium .......get a grip. Their team goes down 2-1 in the 2nd inning and they start booing their Cy Young contending pitcher and now they are throwing thrash on the field. This is what I expect with Yankee fans in NY not Phoenix!

Really? Because I was at Fenway a few weeks ago and was looking for batteries -- I was told they don't sell them because the fans have a little problem with throwing them on the field. Yet, at Yankee Stadium, they don't have that problem. I've never seen anything thrown on the field at Yankee Stadium by fans, except for homeruns hit by the opposing team. Considering that happened a lot this year, maybe that's where you got that impression.

And, I always find it interesting when people complain about the huge coverage the Yankees get (which I, although I'm a Yankee fan, find a bit outrageous-- I mean, the Joe Toree saga should not have top billing over the playoffs period), yet find a way to take a dig at the Yankees even though the story has absolutely nothing to do with them. This is especially true of Boston fans (and some Met fans). It's an unnatural obsession that I don't get. Your team is about to win the World Series-- enjoy that. I just don't get the obsession--but that's a rant for another time, along with the rant about how some Red Sox fans are just as arrogant and cocky as the worst of the Yankee fans.

In all seriousness, though, I don't understand how the fans could be so stupid so as to do that in a playoff game. Classless.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Jon

Really? Because I was at Fenway a few weeks ago and was looking for batteries -- I was told they don't sell them because the fans have a little problem with throwing them on the field. Yet, at Yankee Stadium, they don't have that problem. I've never seen anything thrown on the field at Yankee Stadium by fans, except for homeruns hit by the opposing team. Considering that happened a lot this year, maybe that's where you got that impression.

And, I always find it interesting when people complain about the huge coverage the Yankees get (which I, although I'm a Yankee fan, find a bit outrageous-- I mean, the Joe Toree saga should not have top billing over the playoffs period), yet find a way to take a dig at the Yankees even though the story has absolutely nothing to do with them. This is especially true of Boston fans (and some Met fans). It's an unnatural obsession that I don't get. Your team is about to win the World Series-- enjoy that. I just don't get the obsession--but that's a rant for another time, along with the rant about how some Red Sox fans are just as arrogant and cocky as the worst of the Yankee fans.

In all seriousness, though, I don't understand how the fans could be so stupid so as to do that in a playoff game. Classless.

Don't you have a coach to go fire or something

[molson]

Originally Posted by Jon

And, I always find it interesting when people complain about the huge coverage the Yankees get (which I, although I'm a Yankee fan, find a bit outrageous-- I mean, the Joe Toree saga should not have top billing over the playoffs period), yet find a way to take a dig at the Yankees even though the story has absolutely nothing to do with them. This is especially true of Boston fans (and some Met fans). It's an unnatural obsession that I don't get. Your team is about to win the World Series-- enjoy that. I just don't get the obsession--but that's a rant for another time, along with the rant about how some Red Sox fans are just as arrogant and cocky as the worst of the Yankee fans.

Old habits die hard I guess - I never had any real animosity towards the Yankees and respected a lot of their players (and Joe Torre), but it was downright embarassing to be at Fenway Park game in 2001-2003 and hear "Yankees Suck" chants at a June game against the Devil Rays. (or even at Celtics and Bruins games). I mean what the hell, if they sucked, where the hell did that put our Red Sox at that time?

We were the classic case of sports fans having an inferority complex - it was part of our identity. I think most of us have now gotten over it since '04 though.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by TroyF

If you had bothered to read a word I said, you'd know that my point was the Rockies WERE selling out games in May that didn't matter. Hell, for 11 years, the Rockies were selling out SEPTEMBER games where we were 15+ games out of a playoff spot.

You addressed a lot of points, many of which I disagree with.

1) Other teams fans may help sell out Coors, but it doesn't explain how the 2001 Rockies, a 73 win team, played their final series of the year against the Milwaukee Brewers, a 68 win team, and drew 111k fans.

2) Yes, we sell out professional lacrosse. We sell out arena football. And you know what? If you put the fans with season tickets in those sports to a test, they'd be more knowledgeable and passionate about the Mammoth and Crush than a majority of their counterparts across the country. We don't just "go" to games for an event. Denver fans go to cheer and are extremely knowledgeable about the sports they spend their cash on.

3) I understand the culture of St. Louis. (you'll note I said baseball crazed ST. Louis in my post) Yes, it takes time to build a culture. 14 years isn't an eternity. But what you are failing to see is that this town has been abused by the Rockies for 14 years and the fans, for the most part, have still overcome it. They've been able to get some sort of culture of the game built up without having a worthwhile team to cheer for. You are right, it isn't just about attendance. It's about the buzz in the town the team creates when it does well or when the fans are disgusted. There is true passion for the Rockies by a lot of Denver fans despite all the factors you mentioned. It IS a baseball town. Sure, it has room for improvement, but it is without a doubt a baseball town.

You've made your point and I don't really disagree with any of it, despite my inherent biases. I hope they win 7 more games.

[Arles]

Phoenix (outside of the Suns) is a transient sports town. If you are a baseball fan older than the age of 10, you HAD to have a different team before the D-Backs began. Combine that with a majority of Phoenix residents coming from the midwest, east and California and you end up with a ton of Cubs, Mets, Yankees, Dodger and Red Sox fans now living in Phoenix.

Then, you have the MLB average ticket price mandate which put many of the normally affordable seats in the $120-200 range because of the larger upper deck area in Chase Field. Compare that with Colorado where the most expensive seat for game 3 is $100.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand why Arizona has a tough time selling out playoff games. Although, it was a sellout (and the stadium full) by the first inning. The water bottle thing was classless, but I guess that's what you get when the stadium is full of former fans from Philly, Chicago and New York that have move to Phoenix in the past 5-10 years

As to the DBacks not being interesting, I completely disagree. Here are some facts about this DBacks team:
1. The salary of their entire postseason roster is $34 million - or roughly double what Todd Helton makes. In Fact Helton ($16.6 m) makes almost twice as much the entire starting 8 field players for the DBacks last night (~$8.5 million).
2. They have 4 starters who have been ranked in the top 25 prospects over the past 2-3 seasons in Drew, Upton, Young and Jackson - 3 have been in the top 10 at some point.
3. The Bill James Pythagorean theorem had them in 4th place at the end of the season. The DBacks were second to last in OBP and 26th in runs scored, yet they ended up winning 90 games and taking the division.

From a pure baseball standpoint, there is a lot of interesting angles on the Diamondbacks team. You are talking about a team with a payroll at $20 million below Kansas City that ranks in the bottom 5 in runs scored winning 90 games and making it to the "Final 4". You have a slew of top prospects and an average age in the mid-20s.

You can say much of the same about the Rockies (low payroll, ton of young prospects). When you think about it, the combined payrolls of the D-Backs and Rockies postseason rosters (~$90m) is less than the top 12 teams in MLB and roughly half what the Yankees pay. Both these teams have a ton of interesting angles, but none will ever be picked up by ESPN or the national media who will instead remind us incessantly of how boring and irrelevant the NLCS is.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Arles

Phoenix (outside of the Suns) is a transient sports town. If you are a baseball fan older than the age of 10, you HAD to have a different team before the D-Backs began. Combine that with a majority of Phoenix residents coming from the midwest, east and California and you end up with a ton of Cubs, Mets, Yankees, Dodger and Red Sox fans now living in Phoenix.

Then, you have the MLB average ticket price mandate which put many of the normally affordable seats in the $120-200 range because of the larger upper deck area in Chase Field. Compare that with Colorado where the most expensive seat for game 3 is $100.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand why Arizona has a tough time selling out playoff games. Although, it was a sellout (and the stadium full) by the first inning. The water bottle thing was classless, but I guess that's what you get when the stadium is full of former fans from Philly, Chicago and New York that have move to Phoenix in the past 5-10 years

As to the DBacks not being interesting, I completely disagree. Here are some facts about this DBacks team:
1. The salary of their entire postseason roster is $34 million - or roughly double what Todd Helton makes. In Fact Helton ($16.6 m) makes almost twice as much the entire starting 8 field players for the DBacks last night (~$8.5 million).
2. They have 4 starters who have been ranked in the top 25 prospects over the past 2-3 seasons in Drew, Upton, Young and Jackson - 3 have been in the top 10 at some point.
3. The Bill James Pythagorean theorem had them in 4th place at the end of the season. The DBacks were second to last in OBP and 26th in runs scored, yet they ended up winning 90 games and taking the division.

From a pure baseball standpoint, there is a lot of interesting angles on the Diamondbacks team. You are talking about a team with a payroll at $20 million below Kansas City that ranks in the bottom 5 in runs scored winning 90 games and making it to the "Final 4". You have a slew of top prospects and an average age in the mid-20s.

You can say much of the same about the Rockies (low payroll, ton of young prospects). When you think about it, the combined payrolls of the D-Backs and Rockies postseason rosters (~$90m) is less than the top 12 teams in MLB and roughly half what the Yankees pay. Both these teams have a ton of interesting angles, but none will ever be picked up by ESPN or the national media who will instead remind us incessantly of how boring and irrelevant the NLCS is.

The problem with the series is that fans outside of Denver and Phoenix don't even know a lot of these players. You know how exciting of a player Drew is, but does most of the nation? I know Jeff Francis is one of the best young lefties in the game today. I doubt many people outside of Colorado knew a lot about him heading into the postseason. Manny Corpas? Who?

Let's say these teams are kept together for 4 years. (highly unlikely in the Rockies case, but I can dream) They have this series 4 years from now it's the highlight series of the playoffs. It'd draw people from all over the country. Guys like Tulowitzki, Holliday, Drew Young, Webb, Jiminez in their primes? It's insane how good these two teams could be.

Tonight should be an interesting game. It really hinges on Jimenez. He's a young kid, which makes him a Jeckyll and Hyde type of pitcher. But when he's on? He's simply unhittable. A 100+ MPH fast ball, solid change up. He can be devastating. In one four start stretch in late August, he gave up 12 hits in 26.2 IP. He then was a little iffy in the next four starts before his last start of the year. He gave up 1 hit to the DBacks last time out. If the Rockies win this one, I don't see the DBacks coming back.

[Arles]

I agree, but if the Rockies were from NY, we'd have guys like Hawpe and Francis shoved down our throats. Hawpe is twice the player Milledge is, yet no one knows who he is. As to tonight, I agree that it's a key game. If Arizona loses both home games, it would be asking a lot for them to win 2 of 3 in Colorado and both 6 and 7.

I'm just hoping it goes six at this point as I have lower level tickets for game 6 in AZ.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by TroyF

The problem with the series is that fans outside of Denver and Phoenix don't even know a lot of these players. You know how exciting of a player Drew is, but does most of the nation? I know Jeff Francis is one of the best young lefties in the game today. I doubt many people outside of Colorado knew a lot about him heading into the postseason. Manny Corpas? Who?

Let's say these teams are kept together for 4 years. (highly unlikely in the Rockies case, but I can dream) They have this series 4 years from now it's the highlight series of the playoffs. It'd draw people from all over the country. Guys like Tulowitzki, Holliday, Drew Young, Webb, Jiminez in their primes? It's insane how good these two teams could be.

Tonight should be an interesting game. It really hinges on Jimenez. He's a young kid, which makes him a Jeckyll and Hyde type of pitcher. But when he's on? He's simply unhittable. A 100+ MPH fast ball, solid change up. He can be devastating. In one four start stretch in late August, he gave up 12 hits in 26.2 IP. He then was a little iffy in the next four starts before his last start of the year. He gave up 1 hit to the DBacks last time out. If the Rockies win this one, I don't see the DBacks coming back.

See, I know all of those players, but I'm a baseball geek.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Arles

I agree, but if the Rockies were from NY, we'd have guys like Hawpe and Francis shoved down our throats. Hawpe is twice the player Milledge is, yet no one knows who he is.

No kidding. Put this team and Brooklyn and see what sort of reception they'd get and how crazy the city would be abuzz for them.

Jimenez pitched really well against the Phillies in Game 3 of the NLDS and Hurdle did a great job of replacing him at just the right time, so if he can bring that stuff to the hill with him tonight, they ought to go up 2-0 heading home.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

No kidding. Put this team and Brooklyn and see what sort of reception they'd get and how crazy the city would be abuzz for them.

Well duh, they would be hated because they would have been shoved down our throats all year long.

[DaddyTorgo]

Hope you Dbacks fans are enjoying the fruits of Josh Byrnes' labors. He's a class-act and I'm glad to see his franchise succeeding.

[miami_fan]

Can FOX get that camera any closer to Eric Wedge's face? My goodness

[SirFozzie]

... Ok they mentioned Frank TV on Fox. I am about to snap. That was the one good thing about going to Fox..

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Arles

Phoenix (outside of the Suns) is a transient sports town. If you are a baseball fan older than the age of 10, you HAD to have a different team before the D-Backs began. Combine that with a majority of Phoenix residents coming from the midwest, east and California and you end up with a ton of Cubs, Mets, Yankees, Dodger and Red Sox fans now living in Phoenix.

Then, you have the MLB average ticket price mandate which put many of the normally affordable seats in the $120-200 range because of the larger upper deck area in Chase Field. Compare that with Colorado where the most expensive seat for game 3 is $100.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand why Arizona has a tough time selling out playoff games. Although, it was a sellout (and the stadium full) by the first inning. The water bottle thing was classless, but I guess that's what you get when the stadium is full of former fans from Philly, Chicago and New York that have move to Phoenix in the past 5-10 years

As to the DBacks not being interesting, I completely disagree. Here are some facts about this DBacks team:
1. The salary of their entire postseason roster is $34 million - or roughly double what Todd Helton makes. In Fact Helton ($16.6 m) makes almost twice as much the entire starting 8 field players for the DBacks last night (~$8.5 million).
2. They have 4 starters who have been ranked in the top 25 prospects over the past 2-3 seasons in Drew, Upton, Young and Jackson - 3 have been in the top 10 at some point.
3. The Bill James Pythagorean theorem had them in 4th place at the end of the season. The DBacks were second to last in OBP and 26th in runs scored, yet they ended up winning 90 games and taking the division.

From a pure baseball standpoint, there is a lot of interesting angles on the Diamondbacks team. You are talking about a team with a payroll at $20 million below Kansas City that ranks in the bottom 5 in runs scored winning 90 games and making it to the "Final 4". You have a slew of top prospects and an average age in the mid-20s.

You can say much of the same about the Rockies (low payroll, ton of young prospects). When you think about it, the combined payrolls of the D-Backs and Rockies postseason rosters (~$90m) is less than the top 12 teams in MLB and roughly half what the Yankees pay. Both these teams have a ton of interesting angles, but none will ever be picked up by ESPN or the national media who will instead remind us incessantly of how boring and irrelevant the NLCS is.

Originally Posted by TroyF

The problem with the series is that fans outside of Denver and Phoenix don't even know a lot of these players. You know how exciting of a player Drew is, but does most of the nation? I know Jeff Francis is one of the best young lefties in the game today. I doubt many people outside of Colorado knew a lot about him heading into the postseason. Manny Corpas? Who?

Let's say these teams are kept together for 4 years. (highly unlikely in the Rockies case, but I can dream) They have this series 4 years from now it's the highlight series of the playoffs. It'd draw people from all over the country. Guys like Tulowitzki, Holliday, Drew Young, Webb, Jiminez in their primes? It's insane how good these two teams could be.

Tonight should be an interesting game. It really hinges on Jimenez. He's a young kid, which makes him a Jeckyll and Hyde type of pitcher. But when he's on? He's simply unhittable. A 100+ MPH fast ball, solid change up. He can be devastating. In one four start stretch in late August, he gave up 12 hits in 26.2 IP. He then was a little iffy in the next four starts before his last start of the year. He gave up 1 hit to the DBacks last time out. If the Rockies win this one, I don't see the DBacks coming back.

Ok, here's the thing. You know I love the smaller market teams but let's not get too tired patting ourselves on the back over there in Colorado and Arizona.

First, Arizona, since, frankly, they're easier. Yeah, it's really interesting that their pythaorgean has them 4th. But that's not going to draw huge audiences. In fact, one could argue that it means either the team is much greater than the sum of its parts or its just really lucky. Probably a bit of both. They have a stud pitcher, one of the top couple in the NL in Webb. But beyond that in the rotation, you have an above average guy but pretty vanilla guy in Davis, a retread veteran in Hernandez, and a rookie who hasn't proven much in Micah Owings.

The lineup has even less "star power" as there is a mix of high potential youngsters and ok veterans. This isn't entirely from a lack of exposure (tho I thank Chris Young for coming out of pretty much nowhere to help my fantasy team a ton this year) so much as it is a lack of proving anything in the MLB at this point. Look at their stats- there's just not much there. The interesting point, of course, is how they got there as it doesn't look like there's much there on paper at all.

Colorado's a bit more interesting. The pitching staff is pretty mediocre past Francis, tho he's one of the best kept secrets in baseball. Fogg is a jekyll and hyde guy and has been his whole career. Jimenez and Morales have less than a full MLB season combined and neither had a Francisco Liriano from last year sort of season either. Both teams have pretty good bullpens (heck, I'm pulling for Jeremy Affeldt as he was one of the nicest guys in KC when he was here) but even with some electric guys in Valverde and Corpas at the back of the pens, we're talking about under 120 career saves combined.

The lineup for the Rockies is a bit "sexier" as you have a long time face of the franchise in Helton, an MVP candidate in Holliday, a ROY canidate in Tulowitzki, and some guys who have had some pretty good years this year and in the past in Hawpe and Atkins. But, again, that's about the only unit of the four (both teams, offense and pitching) that really has some star power.

Hopefully, if, as TroyF suggests, these two teams are going at it in 4 years and have been putting up numbers, we'll remember the names like some of the repeat playoff teams like the Braves or Twins of the 90s. Sure, we won't know about their "gritty backup 1B" or "3rd middle reliever" like the overexposed Yankees or Red Sox. And fungible Josh Fogg won't get swooned over like a mediocre Carl Pavano or El Duque when he was in New York. And, like anything not on the coast, things are dialed down so if Holliday puts up a career's worth of numbers better than Derek Jeter, we won't hear about it every time he goes out on the town. But that's the effect of having the "national media" covering their local news like it should matter to all of us.

But until then, there's not a lot of MLB star power because they haven't proven much yet. A lot of these guys have a ton of potential but there's a lot of just that on the field in this series- potential, but not much of it realized... yet.

SI

[molson]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Hopefully, if, as TroyF suggests, these two teams are going at it in 4 years and have been putting up numbers, we'll remember the names like some of the repeat playoff teams like the Braves or Twins of the 90s. Sure, we won't know about their "gritty backup 1B" or "3rd middle reliever" like the overexposed Yankees or Red Sox. And fungible Josh Fogg won't get swooned over like a mediocre Carl Pavano or El Duque when he was in New York. And, like anything not on the coast, things are dialed down so if Holliday puts up a career's worth of numbers better than Derek Jeter, we won't hear about it every time he goes out on the town. But that's the effect of having the "national media" covering their local news like it should matter to all of us.

Success and longevity > Market size and overstated media "bias". If the Rockies keep their team together and win a couple of world series, I guarantee people will know about their "gritty backup 1B" and "3rd middle reliever".

Why should the media fawn over a team that's been irrelevant for years and now has had an unbelievable MONTH (singular)? The media reflects the fans' interest, that's they how they make money. The Rockies are a "nice" story, and are being treated as such. But you expect FAR too much if you want Yankees/Red Sox-level coverage at this point, the national interest just isn't there yet. They could lose 4 straight to the D'backs, win 84 games next year, trade off the superstars and be completely irrelevant again. If not (and I'd love to see them succeed), they'll get their just due.

[Young Drachma]

Is Helton a Future Hall of Famer? I hear that thrown around from time to time...and I wonder about it. Thoughts?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Is Helton a Future Hall of Famer? I hear that thrown around from time to time...and I wonder about it. Thoughts?

No.

A short (although high) peak at first base isn't HoF material. He put up some great numbers for 5-6 years, but remove the Coors effect and he wouldn't get much consideration.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Is Helton a Future Hall of Famer? I hear that thrown around from time to time...and I wonder about it. Thoughts?

I would say probably not, he's really slowed down the last two years, to the point where he's a lot younger than I thought (33). He won't come close to either 500 home runs or 3,000 hits, and he'll probably finish with just the 1 batting title. He basically has Mo Vaughn numbers with slightly more longevity.

[Young Drachma]

That's what I thought, but...I didn't look at the Baseball-statistics site to see his comparison:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/heltoto01.shtml

Hank Greenberg (887) *
Vladimir Guerrero (863)
Hal Trosky (832)
Jason Giambi (828)
Brian Giles (824)
Ted Kluszewski (821)
Mo Vaughn (820)
Tim Salmon (814)
Albert Belle (809)
Kent Hrbek (809)

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

That's what I thought, but...I didn't look at the Baseball-statistics site to see his comparison:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/heltoto01.shtml

Again, Coors Field. Looking back casually it looks like it added .150-.200 points to his OPS each year.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Ok, here's the thing. You know I love the smaller market teams but let's not get too tired patting ourselves on the back over there in Colorado and Arizona.

First, Arizona, since, frankly, they're easier. Yeah, it's really interesting that their pythaorgean has them 4th. But that's not going to draw huge audiences. In fact, one could argue that it means either the team is much greater than the sum of its parts or its just really lucky. Probably a bit of both. They have a stud pitcher, one of the top couple in the NL in Webb. But beyond that in the rotation, you have an above average guy but pretty vanilla guy in Davis, a retread veteran in Hernandez, and a rookie who hasn't proven much in Micah Owings.

I remember a ton of interest (and ratings) in a team from LA in 1988. They had one stud pitcher with a ton of scoreless innings in a row and a team that was much greater than the sum of their parts. Of course, that was when we weren't spoonfed what was important by ESPN 24 hours a day (and the 88 Dodger team also happened to reside on one of the coasts - which doesn't hurt).

The lineup has even less "star power" as there is a mix of high potential youngsters and ok veterans. This isn't entirely from a lack of exposure (tho I thank Chris Young for coming out of pretty much nowhere to help my fantasy team a ton this year) so much as it is a lack of proving anything in the MLB at this point. Look at their stats- there's just not much there. The interesting point, of course, is how they got there as it doesn't look like there's much there on paper at all.

If Chris Young, Justin Upton or Stephen Drew were on the Mets, we'd be hearing daily about what a great story they are. Again, the DBacks are not a story because they lack interesting angles, they are not a story because they are west of the Mississippi and not located in California. Same goes for Colorado.

Colorado's a bit more interesting. The pitching staff is pretty mediocre past Francis, tho he's one of the best kept secrets in baseball. Fogg is a jekyll and hyde guy and has been his whole career. Jimenez and Morales have less than a full MLB season combined and neither had a Francisco Liriano from last year sort of season either. Both teams have pretty good bullpens (heck, I'm pulling for Jeremy Affeldt as he was one of the nicest guys in KC when he was here) but even with some electric guys in Valverde and Corpas at the back of the pens, we're talking about under 120 career saves combined.

The lineup for the Rockies is a bit "sexier" as you have a long time face of the franchise in Helton, an MVP candidate in Holliday, a ROY canidate in Tulowitzki, and some guys who have had some pretty good years this year and in the past in Hawpe and Atkins. But, again, that's about the only unit of the four (both teams, offense and pitching) that really has some star power.

Lineup A (1-7):
1. .367 OBP, .320 BA, 33 SB
2. .342 OBP, .288 BA, 32 SB, 84 R
3. .405 OBP, 1.012 OPS, 36 HR, 137 RBI
4. .434 OBP, .928 OPS, 17 HR, 91 RBI
5. .367 OBP, .853 OPS, 25 HR, 111 RBI
6. .387 OBP, .928 OPS, 29 HR, 116 RBI
7. .359 OBP, .838 OPS, 24 HR, 99 RBI (rookie)

Lineup B (1-7):
1. .351 OBP, .270 BA, 27 SB, 93 R
2. .388 OBP, .322 BA, 15 SB, 102 R
3. .369 OBP, .814 OPS, 16 HR, 101 RBI
4. .422 OBP, 1.067 OPS, 54 HR, 156 RBI
5. .367 OBP, .855 OPS, 25 HR, 103 RBI
6. .426 OBP, .970 OPS, 20 HR, 90 RBI
7. .353 OBP, .841 OPS, 19 HR, 97 RBI

A is Colorado and B is the Yankees. Given Colorado is in the NL, you'd have to say these two lineups are a push. Yet, before looking at the stats here, how many baseball fans think Colorado's lineup performed as well as NY this season?

Hopefully, if, as TroyF suggests, these two teams are going at it in 4 years and have been putting up numbers, we'll remember the names like some of the repeat playoff teams like the Braves or Twins of the 90s.

Agreed, this is the best a team not located in a major media market can hope for.

Sure, we won't know about their "gritty backup 1B" or "3rd middle reliever" like the overexposed Yankees or Red Sox. And fungible Josh Fogg won't get swooned over like a mediocre Carl Pavano or El Duque when he was in New York. And, like anything not on the coast, things are dialed down so if Holliday puts up a career's worth of numbers better than Derek Jeter, we won't hear about it every time he goes out on the town. But that's the effect of having the "national media" covering their local news like it should matter to all of us.

You've hit the nail on the head with your last comment. My point here is that if the exact teams from Arizona and Colorado were in New York, both would be major stories and extremely interesting to the national media. However, because these players are in Phoenix and Denver, the media spends all week telling us how "boring" they are.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by molson

Success and longevity > Market size and overstated media "bias". If the Rockies keep their team together and win a couple of world series, I guarantee people will know about their "gritty backup 1B" and "3rd middle reliever".

Why should the media fawn over a team that's been irrelevant for years and now has had an unbelievable MONTH (singular)? The media reflects the fans' interest, that's they how they make money. The Rockies are a "nice" story, and are being treated as such. But you expect FAR too much if you want Yankees/Red Sox-level coverage at this point, the national interest just isn't there yet. They could lose 4 straight to the D'backs, win 84 games next year, trade off the superstars and be completely irrelevant again. If not (and I'd love to see them succeed), they'll get their just due.

This is one of the things that is actually a little sad about this streak.

The team didn't have a good month (singular) as you suggest. They had the best run differential in the national league. They had a brutal stretch right before the all star break where they went 1-9 on a road trip where they actually led most of those games late.

They don't have a pitching staff that "isn't much beyond Francis" as Sterlingnice suggests. You may not know the names, but that pitching staff was the single best staff in the NL after the all star break.

But I think both of you missed my point. I understand why they this series is impossible to market and most people outside of Colorado and Arizona are paying attention to it. I get it 100%. If this same series happens four years from now with all of the talent on display in their prime? It'll be a signiture series.

[Wolfpack]

Geez, Tulo has a howitzer for an arm. Another off-balance throw-out for him. He seems to produce at least one of those a game lately. If the Rockies can keep him and Holliday, they'll definitely have their faces of the franchise going forward with Helton beginning to exit the stage.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Arles

However, because these players are in Phoenix and Denver, the media spends all week telling us how "boring" they are.

I realize there's a little intentional hyperbole there, but I don't see ESPN crapping on this series at all.

I kind of wish the Yankees beat the Indians - then we'd have an incredible contrast of series between the ALCS and NLCS. The national ratings would have been telling.

[Young Drachma]

Davis' curveball is zany.

[molson]

I'm so sick of Eric Gagne. I don't know what his deal is, but if the Sox win the series, they need to leave him off the World Series roster.

[SirFozzie]

they were both dinky hits, and the ump was squeezing him.