Dog kills cat, cat owner shoots dog, dog owner shoots 5 people.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That is what the facts say. The CDC shows that pitbulls killed more people than any other breed from the 70's to the start of this decade.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

And another study over the last 30 years that shows pitbulls have way more bites than any other breed.

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Atta...%20Clifton.pdf

Those are the facts. If you have something different, please post.

I like how you ignore that for the last 3 segments of the top study, rottweilers doubled the number of deaths as pits.

And I love how you say "from the 70's. This study is a 20 year period from 1979-1998. That doesn't include "the 70's". And doesn't include this decade either. It actually proves my point that in the 90's, the Rottweiler was the "kill them all" breed (33 deaths to the 21 for Pits).

Edit: And unfortunately your second link doesn't show by year, so it really doesn't tell me much of anything as far as the point that I'm trying to make.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by wade moore

I like how you ignore that for the last 3 segments of the top study, rottweilers doubled the number of deaths as pits.

And I love how you say "from the 70's. This study is a 20 year period from 1979-1998. That doesn't include "the 70's". And doesn't include this decade either. It actually proves my point that in the 90's, the Rottweiler was the "kill them all" breed (33 deaths to the 21 for Pits).

Edit: And unfortunately your second link doesn't show by year, so it really doesn't tell me much of anything as far as the point that I'm trying to make.

As much as I enjoy someone's argument being picked apart, the only point you're serving to maker here is that both rotties and pits should be put down.

People being KILLED by house pets? Unacceptable in any community.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by RendeR

As much as I enjoy someone's argument being picked apart, the only point you're serving to maker here is that both rotties and pits should be put down.

People being KILLED by house pets? Unacceptable in any community.

The point, imo, is that owners that raise their dogs to be aggressive should have much stiffer penalties/enforcement.

[molson]

Originally Posted by wade moore

I like how you ignore that for the last 3 segments of the top study, rottweilers doubled the number of deaths as pits.

And I love how you say "from the 70's. This study is a 20 year period from 1979-1998. That doesn't include "the 70's". And doesn't include this decade either. It actually proves my point that in the 90's, the Rottweiler was the "kill them all" breed (33 deaths to the 21 for Pits).

Edit: And unfortunately your second link doesn't show by year, so it really doesn't tell me much of anything as far as the point that I'm trying to make.

I don't think anyone's defending rotweilers. That top link reports that 60% of dog mauling deaths are those two breeds. That's pretty insane.

Yes, if you eliminate those two breeds, another dog would be #1. Something would have to be. And that #1 would have higher death rates then they do now, yes. But no breed would approach those numbers without decades of breeding specifically for fighting/aggression. Pit bulls are an abomination of a breed. The aggression in innate, it doesn't have to be taught to explode (not in every case, but that risk is always there)

Pit Bulls aren't some brand new flash-in-the pan agressive dog. They've had their reputation has long as I've bee alive, at least.

There's never going to be a worldwide ban of pit bulls or rotweilers, so the idea that german shephards will just replace them as the monster breed just isn't realistic. More practically, if a town or state bans pitbulls, that town will be safer.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by wade moore

The point, imo, is that owners that raise their dogs to be aggressive should have much stiffer penalties/enforcement.

And counter-point is that no matter how well trained and loved some breeds of dogs are (specifically those two and a few others) there is no guarantee they won't kill some random 4 yr old who gets excited because there is a "doggy" nearby and flail wildly triggering the dogs "OOOH EAT THAT!" response.

I don;t give a damn how well anyone treats their pets, if that breed has a record of killing it is NOT a safe breed of animal and should not be a house pet. You might disagree. I pray nothing tragic ever happens to you and yours or anyone in your community.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by molson

I don't think anyone's defending rotweilers. That top link reports that 60% of dog mauling deaths are those two breeds. That's pretty insane.

Yes, if you eliminate those two breeds, another dog would be #1. Something would have to be. And that #1 would have higher death rates then they do now, yes. But no breed would approach those numbers without decades of breeding specifically for fighting/aggression. Pit bulls are an abomination of a breed. The aggression in innate, it doesn't have to be taught to explode (not in every case, but that risk is lways there)

Pit Bulls aren't some brand new flash-in-the pan agressive dog. They've had their reputation has long as I've bee alive, at least.

There's never going to be a worldwide ban of pit bulls or rotweilers, so the idea that german shephards will just replace them as the monster breed just isn't realistic. More practically, if a town or state bans pitbulls, that town will be safer.

I know I've said I'd back out of this thread, but the return of reasoned responses has kept me in it.

I think there's a gray area in my argument that I'm not articulating well, and that many will probably scoff at anyways.

If you punish the people, rather than the dog - the aggression that has been bred into many Pit Bull bloodlines can be bred out. I use Doberman's as my prime example because I know them pretty well as we strongly considered getting one at one point (and still might, but have opted for Miniature Pinschers in the meantime). Doberman's were horribly aggressive dogs in many bloodlines in the 60's and early 70's. They have always been good watch dogs - initially bred to protect traveling salesmen/vendors in Europe from thieves. As times progressed, the breeding didn't always. A concentrated effort was put forth starting in the 70's to breed that aggression out of the dog. Doberman's are still physically one of the most powerful dogs out there - this is why they and German Shephards are the most common police dog - but the aggression was bred out.

That can't be done with Pits right now. Why not? Because there is no real effort to enforce existing laws combined with very few laws with any real teeth (pardon the pun) behind them. So what you have is a rogue sect of "breeders" that are making bloodlines designed to maximize aggression and fighting ability. Pits were originally bred, duh, to handle large cattle. So, they had to have very powerful bodies and jaws to do so. This behavior, like the Doberman's watch dog behavior decades ago, is being exploited by a bad element.

The solution here is to get rid of the element that is emphasizing a negative characteristic in the bloodline.

Like I've said - if you eliminated a breed in an area, the bad element would find another breed to maximize some aggressive trait they have built-in. Maybe it's the Mastiff as I said earlier that is probably the strongest breed, maybe it's a it's a different breed of Bull Terrier, who knows. Maybe it takes time, but they will become just as feered as Pit Bulls. There is nothing super-special about Pit Bulls. There are breeds that are bigger, stronger, and faster. It's just the element that has created these troublesome bloodlines. If you take that breed away, they will work on another.

Short of eliminating all powerful breeds (which I don't think anyone but JiMGA would try to suggest), dealing with the breeds is not the solution. Dealing with individual dogs and the monsters creating these bloodlines is the solution.

Ok, that was a lot - but that's where I'm coming from.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by RendeR

And counter-point is that no matter how well trained and loved some breeds of dogs are (specifically those two and a few others) there is no guarantee they won't kill some random 4 yr old who gets excited because there is a "doggy" nearby and flail wildly triggering the dogs "OOOH EAT THAT!" response.

I don;t give a damn how well anyone treats their pets, if that breed has a record of killing it is NOT a safe breed of animal and should not be a house pet. You might disagree. I pray nothing tragic ever happens to you and yours or anyone in your community.

FWIW - I come from a position of being very close to a couple of folks that rescue Pit Bulls - which includes friend of a friend being running a rescue group that houses Mike Vick Pits to this day.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Short of eliminating all powerful breeds (which I don't think anyone but JiMGA would try to suggest)

If you think I'm alone in considering that a reasonable possibility (at worst), you're waaaay wrong. I'm actually more reasonable than a good portion of the populace, I'm not calling for the immediate extermination of the all existing ones, only an end to future breeding and let attrition (and a major reform of dog ownership, breeding, and responsibility laws) take care of the problem naturally.

If measures to put an end to pit bulls entirely ever goes to a vote somewhere, I'd say it's no worse than 50-50 than they'll have a short life expectancy. And at the rate things are going, something like that might not be too far off.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If you think I'm alone in considering that a reasonable possibility (at worst), you're waaaay wrong. I'm actually more reasonable than a good portion of the populace, I'm not calling for the immediate extermination of the all existing ones, only an end to future breeding and let attrition (and a major reform of dog ownership, breeding, and responsibility laws) take care of the problem naturally.

If measures to put an end to pit bulls entirely ever goes to a vote somewhere, I'd say it's no worse than 50-50 than they'll have a short life expectancy. And at the rate things are going, something like that might not be too far off.

Oddly enough, I think you and I are not THAT far off on the solution here.

I think the only disagreement we'd have is that there are breeds that need to be eliminated.

Outside of that - I agree with.. "and a major reform of dog ownership, breeding, and responsibility laws".. I just don't think that reform should include outlawing the future breeding of X breed of dog.

That being said - I actually buy the argument of "eliminate all powerful breeds" over "eliminate Pit Bulls". Because it gets to the heart of the perceived "problem" rather than stigmatizing a specific breed and not dealing with the real issue.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by sabotai

This is not true. Pit Bulls do not have a stronger bite force than German Sheppards or Rottweilers. A National Geographic show tested the bite forces for these dogs and did two trials for each. The pit bull had a bite for of 130 and 235 (I assume PSI), the German Sheppard got a 130 and 238 and the Rottweiler got a 265 and a 328.

If the pit bull had 10X the biting force, they'd be biting down at 2000-3000 PSI.

YouTube - Bite force competition. Pitbull, Rottweiler, and Shepherd

Fortunately for all of us some people like making up their own statistics to prove their point.

[DanGarion]

Of course important part of all these statistics is left out. In these dog biting and deaths, how many of these attacks were property protection related? As in the dog was guarding someones property, as it was trained to do?

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Of course important part of all these statistics is left out. In these dog biting and deaths, how many of these attacks were property protection related? As in the dog was guarding someones property, as it was trained to do?

Eh, I think that's going to come out in the wash to an extent. I'm not one that believes that having those numbers would really change much.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by RendeR

And counter-point is that no matter how well trained and loved some breeds of dogs are (specifically those two and a few others) there is no guarantee they won't kill some random 4 yr old who gets excited because there is a "doggy" nearby and flail wildly triggering the dogs "OOOH EAT THAT!" response.

I don't give a damn how well anyone treats their pets, if that breed has a record of killing it is NOT a safe breed of animal and should not be a house pet. You might disagree. I pray nothing tragic ever happens to you and yours or anyone in your community.

I agree with this 100% (except the praying part, but that's another thread). Animals are animals. I think it is ridiculous to allow people to have animals as pets who have the physical power to tear most people's throats out - even able bodies adults, not to mention kids.

I wish laws were in place to keep any of these powerful breeds from being allowed as pets.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I agree with this 100% (except the praying part, but that's another thread). Animals are animals. I think it is ridiculous to allow people to have animals as pets who have the physical power to tear most people's throats out - even able bodies adults, not to mention kids.

I wish laws were in place to keep any of these powerful breeds from being allowed as pets.

I concur.

I used to deliver papers as a kid and there were a handful of houses I would refuse to approach because I didn't trust the storm/screen door to hold back any number of big, barking dogs as I approached to drop off the paper. Same went for collection time, if the front door wasn't closed, I wouldn't bother trying to collect and instead called my supervisor to do so.

That isn't right, IMO.

[wade moore]

Color me surprised - I didn't think the movement against powerful breeds would get more than the one supporter on this message board.

Like I said - I actually buy that more than just one breed.

[larrymcg421]

I think part of the problem is dog owners who are lazy, and just want to let the dog out so it can do its business while the owner sits on the couch watching UFC.

I have a Giant Schnauzer, which is a pretty big dog for an apartment, but I've never had problems, because I walk her regularly. She's always on leash outside, except at the dog park. She stays in a large crate while I'm away at work.

So, I'd agree that if you're not willing to do the work required to make sure your dog won't harm someone, then you shouldn't own one.

[JonInMiddleGA]

'Brutal dog attack' killed couple | News | OnlineAthens.com

This really isn't exactly the same subject this thread was on but it seemed close enough & better than a separate thread. Just an awful story. I'll note that several of the Atlanta area TV news crews have footage of some of the dogs believe to be responsible, there's everything in the pack from a doberman & very small young chow to what looked like a sheltie.

One of the things that ought to jump out is the absence of any animal control in the county which is adjacent to Athens (Clarke County). Locals have said that calls to the sheriff's department about various dogs usually get a response that includes a reminder that if you shoot dog(s) on your property that it's a violation not to bury the body afterwards. Meanwhile if I were a betting man, I'd call it even money or better that the abandoned house in question will be the subject of a mysterious fire sometime in the next few months.

Just an incredibly fucked up situation afaic.

LEXINGTON - A roaming pack of dogs mauled a former University of Georgia professor and his librarian wife to death on a dirt road in Oglethorpe County last weekend, investigators said Monday.

An autopsy done at the Georgia Bureau of Investigation's Crime Lab in Decatur showed that dogs killed 65-year-old Sherry Schweder, a UGA bibliographer known on campus as Sherry Allen, Oglethorpe County Coroner James Mathews said. Her husband, Lothar Karl Schweder, 77, a former German professor at UGA, died from similar injuries, Mathews said.

"It positively came back that it was a brutal dog attack as the cause of death," he said.

On Monday, animal control officers from Madison County - Oglethorpe does not have an animal control department - rounded up a dozen or so dogs suspected in the attack from a neighbor's house at the end of the road where the couple were mauled, Oglethorpe County Sheriff Mike Smith said.

Authorities are in the process of determining what to do with the dogs.

"We got a court order from the Superior Court here to capture the dogs," said Smith, who added that he planned to meet with District Attorney Bob Lavender to discuss whether any charges will be filed against the owner.

"I've been working in Oglethorpe for 30 years, and I've never seen anything like this," he said.

The two apparently were attacked in sequence on Howard Thaxton Road, just a few hundred yards from their house on Georgia Highway 77 about two miles northeast of Lexington, according to the account Smith gave.

Sherry Schweder, who often would take her pets along the road, had gone out for a walk sometime late last week when she got attacked, he said.

Smith believes her husband, worried that she had not returned home, took the couple's Honda sedan and drove down the road looking for her. The dogs attacked him when he found her and got out of the car, Smith said.

Their bodies lay on either side of the road next to the car before visiting Jehovah's Witnesses found them Saturday morning.

Authorities said little during the early stages of the investigation. "We did not know what we had at first because the bodies were so mutilated," Smith said. "We wanted to thoroughly investigate what happened."

Investigators traced the dogs, of mixed breeds and various sizes, to a house farther down the dead-end dirt road, Smith said. The owner no longer lives in the house but visits every other day to feed the dogs, he said.

Lanier Bridges, who lives across Howard Thaxton Road from the Schweders, said he has seen the dogs up by his house only once - earlier on Monday - and that they did not seem aggressive.

"I just hope these dogs are the right ones," Bridges said. "We're all wary out here in the country right now."

Friends and colleagues said both had a lot of cats and dogs, and also adopted strays.

Nan McMurry, director for collection development at UGA Libraries, called Sherry Allen's command of language "quite extraordinary." She ordered books in most Western European languages for the library system and could also read Arabic, Russian and Chinese, McMurry said.

Their sons - Mark Schweder, who lives in Aiken, S.C., and York Schweder, from Hutchinson, Kan. - could hardly believe such a thing could happen to their parents, animal lovers who adopted several dogs and cats.

The couple divorced when Mark Schweder was 2 years old, he said. Lothar Schweder left the University of Georgia in 1973 and moved to Kansas. He worked for and retired from the Kansas prison system, York Schweder said, while Sherry Allen stayed at UGA, where she started working in 1974.

Mark Schweder said his father, though a thousand miles away, stayed persistent in talking to his mother. Eventually, he won her back.

They remarried in 2000, when Mark was 32, and the couple moved onto seven acres in Oglethorpe County.

"They were just dearly loved people," Mark Schweder said of his parents. "And they loved it out here. They loved their pets as if they were their children."

[RendeR]

If they can prove those dogs were in fact the ones that killed them (would seem fairly obvious at this point but you never know) then the owner that ignores them other than to stop by feeding them should be charged with both murders and put away for life.

Fucking pathetic.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RendeR

If they can prove those dogs were in fact the ones that killed them (would seem fairly obvious at this point but you never know) then the owner that ignores them other than to stop by feeding them should be charged with both murders and put away for life.

Fucking pathetic.

+1