NFL "Teams Behaving Badly" Thread: 2015

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Logan

Most people were pretty much in agreement on Rice (except Goodell originally, of course) whereas the arguing back and forth was a bit more ongoing here.

BINGO!!!

Ray Rice was pretty simple when the punishment first came down and when the video came down:

1) The suspension should have been longer
2) The NFL really destroyed this thing from the start (and the Ravens)
3) The suspension he should get should be massive.

There may have been a little in the national media, but I don't recall a lot of talk on here that had statements like "maybe she deserved it" "it wasn't that bad, only a little hook." "Everybody does it, right"

The thing keeping this going is fans (not just Patriots fans) who are trying to rationalize that what happened should be swept away because of. . . fill in your blank.

Then there are those of us who are stating that cheating is garbage, has no place in the game and that no matter the context there should be stiff punishments for a team who constantly flaunts the rules.

Obviously, everyone knows which side I'm on. Everyone knows which side mckerney is on. The disagreement is what drives posts, not the action.

As far as Adrian and Ray Rice getting massive suspensions. I don't recall Ray playing in a game this year. Adrian played in a few and then was suspended for the entire season. I don't recall anyone complaining much about either.

[JPhillips]

The Patriots need to embrace being a heel, like the old Raiders. Instead, they want to behave like a heel and be treated like a face, and that just doesn't work.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Grover

The history of Suh being a dirty player didn't get him suspended for stepping on Rodgers.

Originally Posted by Kodos

It should have.

Nope. According the NFL's official rules, because Suh hadn't had any kind of disciplinary action against him for, something like, two years worth of games or such, his record was wiped clean and he was considered a first time offender for the Rodgers thing.

I do not believe there is any such rule that governs here.

I would pay $5 a day for a news feed that promised never to mention this stupid deflated football story.

It's the Ebola of sports "scandals."

[Zinto]

This has gone completely overboard both ways. If the Pats are guilty of tampering with the balls than they should face a rational punishment(loss of draft picks, a couple game suspension for the person found responsible, a fine). There is no need to make the punishment so severe that it will deter others. There are rule changes that can be made to stop others. Rules meant to deter cheating don't/haven't worked. It hasn't stopped players from taking PEDs and it won't stop teams from trying to find any advantage they can.

I also cannot believe the Patriots are the only team using this tactic or any similar to it. You are naive to think so. It is like believing that only the players found using PEDs are the ones who did so. There is too much money at stake and too many people willing to do anything to succeed for that to be true. It doesn't change the fact that the Patriots deserve a punishment if they are found guilty.

[Logan]

Schefter posted this a few minutes ago:

Key points on NFL statement on DeflateGate:
--NFL says its investigation into Deflategate is ongoing
--league has hired Ted Wells as part of its investigation. Wells, an attorney, conducted the league's investigation into the Dolphins' bullying scandal.
--league also has hired an investigative firm to look at electronic and video evidence.
--investigation will continue "in the coming days," including more interviews.
--Patriots have cooperated with the investigation.
--And this: "While the evidence thus far supports the conclusion that footballs that were under-inflated were used by the Patriots in the first half, the footballs were properly inflated for the second half and confirmed at the conclusion of the game to have remained properly inflated."

[Logan]

And I know things didn't end very well the last time Peter King was "told reliably" but...

This is significant, because it takes weather-as-a-factor out of the possible reasons why New England’s footballs could have lost air while the balls on Indianapolis’ sidelines would have stayed fully inflated. I am told reliably that:

- The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.
- All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.
- All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.

The conclusion: There is little doubt the New England footballs were tampered with by a human.

Deflategate dominates Patriots coverage in advance of Super Bowl XLIX | The MMQB with Peter King

[Honolulu_Blue]

The conclusion: There is little doubt the New England footballs were tampered with by a human.

Well, I, for one, am glad we can safely rule out tampering by aliens, elves, or leprechauns.

[Fonzie]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Well, I, for one, am glad we can safely rule out tampering by aliens, elves, or leprechauns.

It would also suggest that we can rule out Belichick.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Well, I, for one, am glad we can safely rule out tampering by aliens, elves, or leprechauns.

Better watch your ass, Kodos

[sabotai]

- All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.

This just begs the question: How often are footballs found to be under the minimum PSI at half time? Have any officials or former officials said that it's exceptionally rare to have balls below the minimum either at half time and at the end of the game?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by sabotai

This just begs the question: How often are footballs found to be under the minimum PSI at half time? Have any officials or former officials said that it's exceptionally rare to have balls below the minimum either at half time and at the end of the game?

I don't have the answer, but I don't believe there's a standard procedure that requires balls to get checked at halftime. Only if someone feels like there is a reason to check.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Logan

I don't have the answer, but I don't believe there's a standard procedure that requires balls to get checked at halftime. Only if someone feels like there is a reason to check.

Yeah, doesn't sound like it.

Report: NFL planned to inspect Patriots football before D’Qwell Jackson interception | ProFootballTalk

According to that (using Jay Glazer as the source), the NFL planned to check them at halftime because of the previous allegations, implying that it's not a normal thing to do (prediction: It will be next year).

[CU Tiger]

One obvious possibility that keeps coming to mind that I havent seen discussed.

What if the Patriots intentionally filled the balls with heated air. Forget the 75F-50F discussion, what if they intentionally filled the balls to 12.5psi of 120F air. Knowing that once they were taken out into the cold they would lose pressure.

That would not be against the rules as currently written. Would confirm Pat involvement. And would also rule out pressure tampering after inspection.

[Draft Dodger]

WHAT IF THE BALLS WERE FILLED WITH HELIUM AND THEN WERE SWAPPED OUT BY ALIENS CURRENTLY LIVING IN ATLANTIS.

[molson]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

One obvious possibility that keeps coming to mind that I havent seen discussed.

What if the Patriots intentionally filled the balls with heated air. Forget the 75F-50F discussion, what if they intentionally filled the balls to 12.5psi of 120F air. Knowing that once they were taken out into the cold they would lose pressure.

That would not be against the rules as currently written. Would confirm Pat involvement. And would also rule out pressure tampering after inspection.

Ya, that's kind of similar to Boston.com article I posted earlier. I feel like there's some missing piece like that we haven't thought of yet.

Peter King tagged along a ref crew for a week last year. He said all the balls were inspected, put in the bag, and "guarded" until 10 minutes before kickoff. I just don't see how it's possible to tamper with the balls at that point without detection (and maybe the NFL will find proof of sneaky tampering this week).

The other possibility is that the refs blew off the actual measuring of the air pressure of the balls, just did a visual check and then called it good. It's hard to imagine the AFC Championship crew slacking like that (but then again, I have more respect for refs than most.)

If they can connect any player or coach to actual tampering, I think a 1-game suspension (the super bowl) would be appropriate. I think that's along the lines of what a baseball pitcher would get for getting caught screwing with a ball. (He'd probably miss somewhere around 1-3 starts in a 162 game-season, so a 1-game football punishment would actually be a little more severe than that). If they catch ball boys tampering but can't connect anyone else, I think you can only do a franchise penalty and fine. They most likely would have been ordered to tamper by somebody, but it could be a lower-level coach, Brady himself, Bellichick. I don't think they can or would impose any individual punishments without proof of individual guilt.

[DaddyTorgo]

You guys are fucking batty if you think the NFL is going to suspend anybody for the fucking Superbowl. It's their marquee event.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Yeah, doesn't sound like it.

Report: NFL planned to inspect Patriots football before D’Qwell Jackson interception | ProFootballTalk

According to that (using Jay Glazer as the source), the NFL planned to check them at halftime because of the previous allegations, implying that it's not a normal thing to do (prediction: It will be next year).

I'll be interested when the NFL decides to release something because things don't add up. I don't think a ballboy or whomever could have doctored the balls to an equal level in the few minutes after they got them back without being on video, so either the Patriots really do use some sort of 120 degree room to fill them/hand them off quickly for referee inspection, or they were already at that PSI level and the refs just did a quick check, felt them, but didn't actually stick an air pressure gauge in all 12, and approved them. Dr. Sak can hate me if I'm wrong, but I don't think refs actually measure the PSI and weight of every ball before every game. Plus, either the NFL or the Colts (if they only informed the NFL during the first half) decided that potentially catching the Patriots was more important than any competitive advantage the Pats could gain during the first half. Finally, it's 5 days later and the NFL has still not contacted Brady about this - and I think we can all agree that if the Patriots intentionally tampered with all the balls, Brady at least knew about and tacitly approved it.

So either the NFL is hiding a conspiracy against the Pats (unlikely), trying to avoid admitting any "error" on the part of its refs (even if no one thought they really needed to use an air pressure gauge on footballs - do they also need to measure each yard line, or can they eyeball it and assume they're properly marked?), or knows there is nothing they can pin on the Patriots unless somebody admits something (which explains Brady's stonewalling), but has been painted into a corner where they almost have to fine somebody or punish the Pats with at least a mid-round draft pick.

And in classic Goodell fashion they had the choice between making a quick decision or doing a thorough investigation, and managed to choose the wrong words and somehow end up getting hammered by both sides.

[Draft Dodger]

I HEARD TOM BRADY WAS STEALING THE OXYGEN FROM FOOTBALLS AND SELLING IT TO FUND ISIS. AARON HERNANDEZ FOUND OUT AND THREATENED TO TELL SO HE WAS FRAMED TO SILENCE HIM. THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE

[stevew]

MY DOG JUSY XLIX HIS BAWLS

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by stevew

MY DOG JUSY XLIX HIS BAWLS

THAT MEANS HE'S ALWAYS BEEN A BALL LICKER AND PROBABLY HAS ROBBED BANKS. IT'S A CLEAR PATTERN

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by cartman

Better watch your ass, Kodos

Kodos is a Dolphins fan. The Dolphins are an AFC East rival of the Patriots.

QED?

[Kodos]

Not really a Dolphins fan at this point. Broncos, baby.

[Suicane75]

I would pay to see a game played with helium inflated footballs.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Not really a Dolphins fan at this point. Broncos, baby.

"at this point," perhaps not, but in the context of past allegiances and alien conspiracy...

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

One obvious possibility that keeps coming to mind that I havent seen discussed.

What if the Patriots intentionally filled the balls with heated air. Forget the 75F-50F discussion, what if they intentionally filled the balls to 12.5psi of 120F air. Knowing that once they were taken out into the cold they would lose pressure.

That would not be against the rules as currently written. Would confirm Pat involvement. And would also rule out pressure tampering after inspection.

If you fill them with 120F air then take them to the officials locker room and then they get checked, that would give enough time for heat of the air inside the balls to dissipate and equal the approx. 70F that would be in the locker room. Football leather is not a good insulator to trap the heat in.

So the 12.5 psi of 120F air would then become a lot less by the time the officials checked them. They'd then add the air to get between the 12.5-13.5 psi required and then take them out to the field.

[Noop]

I know a few Patriot fans and they are loony. If they did it purposely then it is cheating and I hope they get punished.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Noop

I know a few *insert any sports team in the world* fans and they are loony.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

If you fill them with 120F air then take them to the officials locker room and then they get checked, that would give enough time for heat of the air inside the balls to dissipate and equal the approx. 70F that would be in the locker room. Football leather is not a good insulator to trap the heat in.

So the 12.5 psi of 120F air would then become a lot less by the time the officials checked them. They'd then add the air to get between the 12.5-13.5 psi required and then take them out to the field.

I'm not so sure about that. The leather is lined with a rubber bladder and both are above average insulators compared to normal common materials.

120 was just dart on the wall number, but natural rubber doesnt begin to melt until ~350F. So say they used 200F air to fill the ball.

My larger point was it is possible the Patriots DID manipulate the pressure but did not break the rules.

We havent even got into air compounds that could have aided the process. When I raced we spent a small fortune on clean air compounds to fill tires just because it was more temp stable and didn't expand and contract with temp fluctuations like atmospheric mixtures. You could use the same principle in reverse. 'The Ideal Gas Law' and Thermodynamics could surely determine the best gas to use to fill a football with to get the biggest swing.

BTW we actually filled a football with helium before. The results weren't nearly as impressive as you'd think

[Logan]

Listening to Simmons' last podcast with his old man really hammered in what molson was saying a couple days ago about how it sucks that the franchise puts their fans in this position.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

BTW we actually filled a football with helium before. The results weren't nearly as impressive as you'd think

Mythbusters tested this as well, albeit in connection to the myth about helium balls being better for punting, shooting both regular and helium-filled balls off a throwing machine with no discernible difference between the sets.

[Ben E Lou]

Heh. BB is claiming that their process elevates the PSI approx. 1 pound, and then their balls drop down below standards after the fact.

So they're heating them up?

[SnowMan]

The ignorance of the different between pressure (psi) and weight (lbs) boggle my mind. These "experts" should probably do a tiny bit of research...sheesh.

[Fonzie]

Sadly, even a teeny bit of common sense would eradicate that confusion. Just imagine rolling a 13 lb bowling ball...and then imagine trying to throw a 13 lb football.

My shoulder hurts just *thinking* about that.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Heh. BB is claiming that their process elevates the PSI approx. 1 pound, and then their balls drop down below standards after the fact.

So they're heating them up?

I don't know. If they can prove this by science, I'm good with it. But I have about a million questions left:

1) I don't believe Tom Brady can't tell instantly the air pressure of a football. Just like I'd expect Ichiro to know if his bat weighed an ounce less, I fully believe Brady knows.

2) Why is it that the air conditions do it, yet the Patriots just happened to get caught. The Patriots are hated, but so were the Rex Ryan Jets. So were the Cobowys in the 90's. Patriots hate isn't exactly a thing other teams haven't faced. So why were the Patriots set up? Why is it that the Colts had questions in November, but no other team who has ever played the Patriots noticed this? The Colts employ a ball whisperer, the one guy on the planet who can understand the difference of the balls by feel?

3) Speaking of the Colts, why did their balls not drop? Based on reports, it seems the Colts footballs didn't change while all the Patriots did.

4) One of the first things I did was read scientific takes on it. The consensuses of the people I read was that it shouldn't have made a significant amount of difference. Were they wrong? I'm not being a smart ass here, really, what is right?

5) We all know the NFL is full of morons right now, but wouldn't that have been the FIRST thing they did? Wouldn't they have looked to explain this thing away by science within the first 5 minutes of "deflategate?" The Patriots didn't have to go through a million tests here, if the science backs what was said this should have ended a week ago.

6) Lastly, why state all of this now? Why not share your findings with the NFL, refer all questions to them and carry on? I mean, this is NOT going to stop the questions. He damned well knows that. Beli is one smart guy. Smarter than I'll ever hope to be. I don't believe this was done to ease the pressure on his team. It seems more like a shot across the bow at the league.

Time will tell. If he's being honest, good for him. I have my doubts, but those doubts will go away pretty quickly. You can rest assured, we will have the scientific answer within the week. And if it doesn't match up with what he said, he'll pay the price.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm reminded here of a great quote from Jim Cornette (spoken about, among others I'm sure, Vince Russo ... and at some point IIRC about Paul Heyman)

"He'd rather climb a tree and lie than stay on the ground and tell the truth"

[JPhillips]

Can anyone prove the NE balls weren't first measured in a partial vacuum?

Stop picking on the Patriots.

[Arles]

Again, I'm not sure how this press crew was chosen for the conference, but how did no one ask why the Colts balls didn't have a similar drop in pressure? Both were checked together, yet the Colts balls didn't have the same drop.

[gstelmack]

I love how everyone is reaching so many conclusions based on so little information. We have "reports", most of which have been discredited, including pretty much every thing from the initial set of tweets except for "Patriots being investigated for having underinflated footballs". The only actual confirmed fact we have is that the Patriots' balls were underinflated at some point during the first half and replaced at halftime.

I also love the "Brady would know if his ball was off at all, but we can't possibly expect the refs to notice a 2 pound difference in inflation" contradiction. FWIW, it may well turn out that the ref DID notice the difference, but we won't know until the NFL report is released, if they decide to include it.

If someone on the Patriots intentionally set it up so they were playing with balls below the regulation pressure, and this isn't common practice (Luck seems to have gotten a free pass with his hem-and-haw "I play with the ball I'm given, I guess"), then a fine and suspension is warranted, and I won't argue with draft picks if it's a systemic organization issue. But can we wait until we have actual facts, and stop jumping on every little detail ESPN continues to spew from their pretend "journalists" before deciding what actually happened here and what the punishment should be?

[gstelmack]

Now for my turn at the speculation I just bad-mouthed: New England has shown they will parse the rules to the nth degree. They, along with many other teams, were playing games with ball pressure to get them to what they want, warming them ahead of time since the rule dictated what measurements they should be at when the officials checked them, and then letting them come down to what they wanted at game time (which the rule book doesn't specify). Minnesota and Carolina were allegedly caught doing this earlier in the year, so the league sent a memo (but probably didn't update the rule book). New England (and possibly many other teams) parsed the memo and came up with a different approach that didn't violate the letter of the rule or the memo. Baltimore got pissy about New England's formation games during their playoff game, reported them for doing what likely many other teams were doing (since the formation changes were actually legal and they weren't going to get anything done on that), and the league caught the underinflated balls. It is possible as part of this that something went wrong with New England's process or there was a mechanical issue with the balls and New England's attempt to have a buffer during inspection (say, provide them at 13.5, and expect them to drop to 12.5 at game time) went bad - they lived on the edge and fell off.

Any punishment to New England is likely going to be based on how much they skirted the intent of the league letter - remember that the Spygate punishment was not about what New England was filming, but rather that they had blatantly ignored the league memo about it. If Goodell thinks they did that again, they are in for it.

But then again, at Spygate time Belichick did a lot of hemming and hawing. Here he's pretty directly saying "we followed the rules". So I'm curious to see what the final report says, and how much real information we actually get about how this all came about.

Can we have a conspiracy theory discussion about ESPN and Baltimore, who both hate New England and want to see them knocked down, tipping the league and then paying off someone handsomely to make sure the balls were deflated for the league to catch? ESPN has a history of making the news. We could make a great movie off of it...

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

I love how everyone is reaching so many conclusions based on so little information. We have "reports", most of which have been discredited, including pretty much every thing from the initial set of tweets except for "Patriots being investigated for having underinflated footballs". The only actual confirmed fact we have is that the Patriots' balls were underinflated at some point during the first half and replaced at halftime.

I also love the "Brady would know if his ball was off at all, but we can't possibly expect the refs to notice a 2 pound difference in inflation" contradiction. FWIW, it may well turn out that the ref DID notice the difference, but we won't know until the NFL report is released, if they decide to include it.

If someone on the Patriots intentionally set it up so they were playing with balls below the regulation pressure, and this isn't common practice (Luck seems to have gotten a free pass with his hem-and-haw "I play with the ball I'm given, I guess"), then a fine and suspension is warranted, and I won't argue with draft picks if it's a systemic organization issue. But can we wait until we have actual facts, and stop jumping on every little detail ESPN continues to spew from their pretend "journalists" before deciding what actually happened here and what the punishment should be?

+1

[albionmoonlight]

Whatever New England did or did not do, Beli is smart to come out strong in defense. The NFL discipline/investigation/punishment system is laughably bad and totally non-credible right now. If the Pats don't give an inch in terms of admitting wrongdoing, they should have the upper hand in whatever PR fight they get into with the NFL.

[albionmoonlight]

dola: I say that with no opinion about what the Pats did or did not do. If it comes out that it was one overzealous ballboy acting alone, I won't be surprised. If it comes out that Robert Kraft was personally deflating the balls while kicking puppies, I won't be surprised. This story is bizarre enough that it would be hard to be shocked by it going forward.

[Danny]

It all part of an elaborate conspiracy to get DT boxed for the Super Bowl

[ColtCrazy]

ESPN has journalists? Who knew!

Media types are horrible for running with crap before they really know. If they are in the clear, fine. If they aren't, then they should be punished. Nothing really else to say till the NFL makes a ruling.

[CU Tiger]

So...if so many teams want the ball deflated who are we hurtin by allowing it to be deflated.
Just change the rule to 9 pounds, heck you already can't hit the qb why not let him have a remote controlled football. Really what would it hurt to change the rule for everyone?

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

So...if so many teams want the ball deflated who are we hurtin by allowing it to be deflated.
Just change the rule to 9 pounds, heck you already can't hit the qb why not let him have a remote controlled football. Really what would it hurt to change the rule for everyone?

The rule really does seem like an artifact since it's no longer the home team in charge of ball prep. Why it's still there is kind of a mystery to me. It seems like any kind of PSI shenanigans which would make the ball difficult to intercept would also harm the offense.

So to me, the NFL has already determined New England's guilt. That's not in question, IMO. What's in question is the significance of the infraction. Does it matter, since each side has their own balls, whether one team deflates or inflates or whatever? Are there any balls which are 'pooled'? Does the home team have access to inflationary equipment/conditions which the visiting team does not? That sort of thing. If there's a *legitimate* reason for the rule to still be in place, the NFL needs to drop the hammer - hard - so as to discourage future teams from breaking that rule.

If, as it appears, it's an artifact that dates back to a time when both sides used the same balls, if there's really no legitimate reason for that rule to still exist? Then punish the Patriots appropriately for the fact that the rule IS still in place, and then change/eliminate the rule in the offseason.

[Castlerock]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

So to me, the NFL has already determined New England's guilt. That's not in question, IMO.

They did? When? All I read was that the NFL was investigating.

BB lays out a scenario where the footballs could become under-inflated though non-nefarious means. This should be reproducible by anyone if he is correct.

I suspect that this thing (and the Patriots hate in general) have gotten to such a ridiculous level that rational thought is long gone. Belief will trump science even if the science is correct.

[Desnudo]

If the Patriots are found guilty of inflation violation I fully expect the Packers to receive the same punishment since this is all about the rules right?

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

If the Patriots are found guilty of inflation violation I fully expect the Packers to receive the same punishment since this is all about the rules right?

The Packers were caught using over\under inflated balls in a game?

I have read a lot of this thread but not all of it did I miss something?

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Sweed

The Packers were caught using over\under inflated balls in a game?

I have read a lot of this thread but not all of it did I miss something?

I think Rodgers admitted that he has used over-inflated balls in games.