Congress & Schiavo

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Then there ought to be stones thrown at the Republican party for:

1. George W. Bush signing the Texas Futile Care Law that gives hospitals the right to remove life support if the patient could not pay and there is no hope of revival, regardless of the patient's family's wishes.

2. Congress' enthusiastic vote to cut Medicaid expenditures. A greater percentage of Terri Schiavo's care is coming from the state via medicaid as the malpractice money runs out. Speaking of which...

3. The Republican party's push for caps on malpractice awards, and the demonizing of people who seek such awards as gold diggers. That malpractice money has kept Terri Schiavo alive all these years.

4. Making it difficult for people to declare bankruptcy, and demonizing the people who do. Catastrophic medical bills are one of the chief reasons people declare bankruptcy. Say if Schiavo's parents did get to assume care of Terri, and then had to declare bankruptcy because Terri's medical bills became too much of a burden--would you turn on them then?


SFL Cat, I understand the emotions running here for the Terri Schiavo case. I can see your vehement support in favor of Schiavo's parents. However, the Republicans can never claim the moral high ground on this case, since they have made opposite policy decisions for all other people in similar situations to (but not named) Terri Schiavo.

I don't know where you stand on medicaid for the indigent, bankruptcy for people in financial distress due to medical bills, and medical malpractice. But these are real issues for people who need long term care, and a couple of these issues do have a bearing in the Schiavo case. If you actually care about people in situations like Terri Schiavo (but who don't have her level of publicity) then you will have to seriously address what Republican policies have done to make the lives of people and families like Terri Schiavo's so difficult.

thats good stuff.

[Masked]

Originally Posted by Arles

She's obviously kept fighting to stay alive for years now in a very difficult situation. And many doctors will say that someone in her position would probably not be alive (without any traditional "life support") for this long if she did not want to live.

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

SHE IS BRAIN DEAD!!! There is no one home.

She is not brain dead. The part of her brain, the brainstem, that supports basic life functions such as breathing and heart rate is spared. However, the second part of Glengoyne's statement is accurate. CT scans show that her cortex, the crumpled sheet that most of us think of when we think of the brain, has completely degenerated as a result of the trauma. She has no higher cognitive functions anymore. She cannot fight to stay alive like some patients can.

Her husband spent years trying out different therapies before he conceded that there was no hope of recovery including some experimental procedure done in California that her parents could not afford. Terri's condition steadily worsened despite all efforts.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Arles

Sure, but she would have also told her parents and other loved ones (as she has already). We would all probably be on the same page. But, if her mom thought there was an experimental treatment that could improve her situation and asked me to allow her to try it, I would be very hard-pressed not to let her. Again, these are her parents and people that love her just as much as I do.

At what point is it reasonable to finally listen to the doctors, realize there is no treatment, that the brain cells are dead, that they can't be revived, that she's never coming back, that this was her wish and let her go?

At what point to you give up hope, Arles?

I think 8 years is long enough.

Using some of the statements presented above and taking them to their logical conclusion, it seems that we should never let anyone die. We should cryogenically freeze them until a cure can be found to rebuild a brain, fix terminal cancer, reverse old age...after all, there may be a way to do this eventually, right? I think everyone would agree this is an absurd example...but for those who think that she should continue to "exist" (I won't call it living any more than I would call an amobea living) in this twilight between life and death, look at your claims and follow your logic to its proper conclusion.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Then there ought to be stones thrown at the Republican party for:

1. George W. Bush signing the Texas Futile Care Law that gives hospitals the right to remove life support if the patient could not pay and there is no hope of revival, regardless of the patient's family's wishes.

2. Congress' enthusiastic vote to cut Medicaid expenditures. A greater percentage of Terri Schiavo's care is coming from the state via medicaid as the malpractice money runs out. Speaking of which...

3. The Republican party's push for caps on malpractice awards, and the demonizing of people who seek such awards as gold diggers. That malpractice money has kept Terri Schiavo alive all these years.

4. Making it difficult for people to declare bankruptcy, and demonizing the people who do. Catastrophic medical bills are one of the chief reasons people declare bankruptcy. Say if Schiavo's parents did get to assume care of Terri, and then had to declare bankruptcy because Terri's medical bills became too much of a burden--would you turn on them then?


SFL Cat, I understand the emotions running here for the Terri Schiavo case. I can see your vehement support in favor of Schiavo's parents. However, the Republicans can never claim the moral high ground on this case, since they have made opposite policy decisions for all other people in similar situations to (but not named) Terri Schiavo.

I don't know where you stand on medicaid for the indigent, bankruptcy for people in financial distress due to medical bills, and medical malpractice. But these are real issues for people who need long term care, and a couple of these issues do have a bearing in the Schiavo case. If you actually care about people in situations like Terri Schiavo (but who don't have her level of publicity) then you will have to seriously address what Republican policies have done to make the lives of people and families like Terri Schiavo's so difficult.

I never claimed the Republicans have the moral high ground. To me, most Republicans and Democrats are cut from the same cloth. They pay lip service to what their base constituencies want to hear (especially the kook fringes on both sides) and basically govern with little differentiation. In most instances, I think the words politician and hypocrite are synonymous.

[chinaski]

So congress and Bush force a federal judge to hear the parents case, and the courts AGAIN says... "NO, SORRY". So why do they get to appeal this decision? This shit is ludacris.

hxxp://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=615&e=1&u=/nm/20050322/pl_nm/rights_schiavo_dc

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

1. We've covered the first paragraph already. People can question his motives all they want, but the simple answer is that he realized his wife isn't going to get better (in fact, she's gone already), he believes that she wouldn't want to live this way and is carrying out the last wishes of the woman he loved before moving on with life. This is by far the most logical explanation.

I can see that, but it just doesn't wash. I mean the guy has been fighting this for years now and it should seem obvious that her parents want to try all avenues (including some treatments he didn't want to try) before letting her go. What's the harm in letting them take over her care? The guy has a new "wife" and kids by her. IMO, he should just transfer guardianship to his parents and leave the situation.

It seems to me that he has moved on, but her parents have not. I don't see the harm in letting them try every possible avenue to them (financially) before she will eventually pass. There are really only two logical reasons for him to continue to act on her behalf with his new family and life he's setup:

1. He's been so invested in the cause of winning her case that he is now willing to make everything harder on his new family, Terri's family and even himself.

2. He doesn't want to give up the rights to her life insurance once she dies.

I know number 2 is a fairly callous, but those are really the only reasons I can see him keeping on with this. The idea that he can somehow "end her suffering" should have gone away about 3-4 years ago. She's obviously adjusted to her new life (whatever capacity it is).

[chinaski]

Originally Posted by Arles

I can see that, but it just doesn't wash. I mean the guy has been fighting this for years now and it should seem obvious that her parents want to try all avenues (including some treatments he didn't want to try) before letting her go. What's the harm in letting them take over her care? The guy has a new "wife" and kids by her. IMO, he should just transfer guardianship to his parents and leave the situation.

It seems to me that he has moved on, but her parents have not. I don't see the harm in letting them try every possible avenue to them (financially) before she will eventually pass. There are really only two logical reasons for him to continue to act on her behalf with his new family and life he's setup:

1. He's been so invested in the cause of winning her case that he is now willing to make everything harder on his new family, Terri's family and even himself.

2. He doesn't want to give up the rights to her life insurance once she dies.

I know number 2 is a fairly callous, but those are really the only reasons I can see him keeping on with this. The idea that he can somehow "end her suffering" should have gone away about 3-4 years ago. She's obviously adjusted to her new life (whatever capacity it is).

All of your words would actually mean something if TERRY SHIAVO actually wanted to live like a vegetable!

Also, #2 is total crap. Once she dies, the husband doesnt get a single dime.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Arles

There are really only two logical reasons for him to continue to act on her behalf with his new family and life he's setup:

1. He's been so invested in the cause of winning her case that he is now willing to make everything harder on his new family, Terri's family and even himself.

2. He doesn't want to give up the rights to her life insurance once she dies.

I know number 2 is a fairly callous, but those are really the only reasons I can see him keeping on with this. The idea that he can somehow "end her suffering" should have gone away about 3-4 years ago. She's obviously adjusted to her new life (whatever capacity it is).

Bullshit - you continue to ignore the most obvious and logical reason: THIS IS WHAT HE ABSOULETULY BELIEVES TERRI SCHIAVO WANTED.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Bullshit - you continue to ignore the most obvious and logical reason: THIS IS WHAT HE ABSOULETULY BELIEVES TERRI SCHIAVO WANTED.

It's just he didn't happen to mention it until seven years after her collapse, and used the occasion of petitioning the court to have her tube removed to do so.

[Masked]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

It's just he didn't happen to mention it until seven years after her collapse, and used the occasion of petitioning the court to have her tube removed to do so.

Because he spent years exhausting different therapies, none of which worked.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by Masked

Because he spent years exhausting different therapies, none of which worked.

Depending on who you believe, that tends to be a point of contention.

[Mr. Wednesday]

None of the independent reviewers that I've seen, including two or three different Guardians Ad Litem appointed as advocates solely for Terry, have found fault with her care.

[SFL Cat]

Did they have complete access to the medical records? My understanding is that Schiavo and his lawyer have kept those and the financial records tight to the vest.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

It's just he didn't happen to mention it until seven years after her collapse, and used the occasion of petitioning the court to have her tube removed to do so.

Wow, it's really hard to understand that for quite a few years after her trauma he and her parents consulted with doctors and tried multiple approaches on the chance that she might gain some form of recovery, but as it became clear to Michael that there wasn't any hope of recovery, and that she was sure to remain in this state for the rest of her life he considered the opinion she'd rendered to him (and others) in the past that she wouldn't want to go on living that way. Perhaps it took him a long time to come to terms with this difficult decision, and certainly the fact her parents didn't agree with it didn't help.

So obviously that 8-year gap is proof he isn't sincere in his belief this is what she wanted.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Did they have complete access to the medical records? My understanding is that Schiavo and his lawyer have kept those and the financial records tight to the vest.

You're kidding me right? In all the exhausitve appeals and court happenings in this case, somehow Michael Schiavo has managed to hide medical records pertaining to the case?

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Wow, it's really hard to understand that for quite a few years after her trauma he and her parents consulted with doctors and tried multiple approaches on the chance that she might gain some form of recovery, but as it became clear to Michael that there wasn't any hope of recovery, and that she was sure to remain in this state for the rest of her life he considered the opinion she'd rendered to him (and others) in the past that she wouldn't want to go on living that way. Perhaps it took him a long time to come to terms with this difficult decision, and certainly the fact her parents didn't agree with it didn't help.

So obviously that 8-year gap is proof he isn't sincere in his belief this is what she wanted.

I think most people don't know she made her opinion known to more than just him. I just heard that last night. I had no idea this was more than just on his word.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

I never claimed the Republicans have the moral high ground. To me, most Republicans and Democrats are cut from the same cloth. They pay lip service to what their base constituencies want to hear (especially the kook fringes on both sides) and basically govern with little differentiation. In most instances, I think the words politician and hypocrite are synonymous.

Okay, but I do notice that a lot of people--politicians or otherwise--who have expressed the most outrage over this are backtracking when policy questions are raised. To me, the policy ramifications are much more important to the country than the minutiae regarding this individual case...

That is not to say that there are legitimate issues in the case itself (the humaneness of removing the feeding tube, for example), and they are also important and worthy of debate--but you can't look at one aspect of the case without acknowledging the existence and relevance of the other aspects...

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

I think most people don't know she made her opinion known to more than just him. I just heard that last night. I had no idea this was more than just on his word.

You might have missed the link the first time around, but there is an excellent running account of this case from a Florida law blogger that has been following this situation for quite some time. You can find it here: hxxp://www.abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

He does an excellent job of presenting the case in full and answering a number of common questions about the case. Though I'm sure that those with extremist views on this case will call him biased for saying anything that disagrees with them or disputes their views, but that's how it goes.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Did they have complete access to the medical records? My understanding is that Schiavo and his lawyer have kept those and the financial records tight to the vest.

Just to further refute your complete lack of understanding of this case, here's what the 2nd District Court explained regarding the Schindler's doctor gaining an opportunity to examine Terri:

Through the assistance of Mrs. Schiavo's treating physician, Dr. Victor Gambone, the physicians obtained current medical information about Theresa Schiavo including high-quality brain scans. Each physician reviewed her medical records and personally conducted a neurological examination of Mrs. Schiavo. Lengthy videotapes of some of the medical examinations were created and introduced into evidence. Thus, the quality of the evidence presented to the guardianship court was very high, and each side had ample opportunity to present detailed medical evidence, all of which was subjected to thorough cross-examination. It is likely that no guardianship court has ever received as much high-quality medical evidence in such a proceeding.

[Arles]

I still don't quite get why he has stood so adament against allowing her parents to be the guardian of her, but that doesn't mean he is a bad person. In the end, I think the hardest thing I have with this whole process is the starvation method of killing her. It just seems inhumaine.

I can honestly say that if she was hooked up to a breathing aparatus because she could not longer breathe on her own, I wouldn't have a problem with the Dr.'s "pulling the plug" at this point. I think that most reasonable methods of care and investigations into her actual wishes have been made.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

I originally heard it on the Miami local news earlier this year. I've also heard it discussed on various local talk radio stations. Did a quick scan and found this article on the net...

There is a new dimension in the fierce battle over whether Terri Schiavo's life is worth saving. A federally funded investigation has begun into certain medical judgments made by her husband and guardian, Michael Schiavo...

link=hxxp://www.villagevoice.com/news/0347,hentoff,48738,6.html

Let's review this: Don't you suppose, given the tremendous amount of publicity this case has generated, that if this line of thinking had any validity there would have been follow-ups to this lone article in the 2 years since it was published?

Let's also consider the logical fallacy of this argument; from the Q&A section of the Abstract Appeal blog my Matt Conigliaro:

First, "Terri's Law" required the chief judge of the local circuit court to appoint a guardian ad litem (GAL) to examine Terri's case and advise the Governor. The chief judge appointed Dr. Jay Wolfson from the University of South Florida. Dr. Wolfson's December 2003 report to Governor Bush included this bit of factual history:

The cause of the cardiac arrest was adduced to a dramatically reduced potassium level in Theresa's body. Sodium and potassium maintain a vital, chemical balance in the human body that helps define the electrolyte levels. The cause of the imbalance was not clearly identified, but may be linked, in theory, to her drinking 10-15 glasses of iced tea each day. While no formal proof emerged, the medical records note that the combination of [Theresa's] aggressive weight loss, diet control and excessive hydration raised questions about Theresa from Bulimia, an eating disorder, more common among women than men, in which purging through vomiting, laxatives and other methods of diet control become obsessive.

Thus we have established the credibility of the argument advanced that supports the claims of Michael Schiavo on the cause of Terri's situation. Further, let's also remember that Michael Schiavo brought a medical malpractice suit regarding this case, which automatically meant a great deal of medical attention focused on the cause of her situation:

Also relevant to questions about the cause of Terri's collapse is the lawsuit that Michael brought on Terri's behalf against Terri's doctors. The premise of that early 1990s lawsuit was that the doctors committed malpractice by failing to diagnose Terri's bulimia and that her bulimia led to her cardiac arrest. The case was tried to a jury, which ruled in Michael's favor, finding that Terri had bulimia, that her bulimia caused her cardiac arrest, and that the doctors were negligent in failing to diagnose the situation. The verdict was appealed, and before the appellate court could rule, the parties settled, with Michael recovering approximately $750,000 for Terri and $300,000 for himself.

Given this malpractice trial, it raises major doubts about the line of thinking that Michael in fact caused her situation through physical beating(s) of Terri:

The significance of the medical malpractice lawsuit can be seen in a few ways. A jury agreed that bulimia caused Terri's collapse. The defendants were her doctors -- one might think that they, of all people, would have been able to show that Terri had been beaten or strangled if that was what had occurred. Also, to believe that Michael caused Terri's collapse by beating her is to believe that Michael initiated a lawsuit against someone else for causing her collapse, opening the whole matter to serious inquiry and greatly increasing the risk that someone would discover his role.

Finally, I am not aware that anyone -- not the paramedics, doctors, nurses, family members, friends, or anyone else -- who saw Terri in the hours, weeks, and months after her collapse ever suggested at the time that Terri had been beaten or strangled.

So basically what we have is very little in the way of credible evidence to support the line of thinking that Terri's situation was caused by severe physical trauma from abuse by her husband. But hey, don't let that stop you from smearing his name in the mud because you don't agree with his decision...

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Arles

In the end, I think the hardest thing I have with this whole process is the starvation method of killing her. It just seems inhumaine.

For a conscious, aware human starvation would be a very unpleasant way to go. In her state, with no cognitive brain funtion, I don't think there's any awareness of the fact starvation is occurring.

I would agree this isn't the optimal method - euthanasia would be preferable by lethal injection would be preferable, but it's not an option in this situation.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Let's review this: Don't you suppose, given the tremendous amount of publicity this case has generated, that if this line of thinking had any validity there would have been follow-ups to this lone article in the 2 years since it was published?

According to the timeline

February*23,*2005… Florida's Department of Children and Families asks to intervene and for 60-day stay to permit investigation of alleged abuse.

March*10,*2005… Judge Greer denies Department of Children and Families request to intervene and for stay, finds agency is free to investigate.

As far as I know, no investigation has been launched as of this point.

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Let's also consider the logical fallacy of this argument; from the Q&A section of the Abstract Appeal blog my Matt Conigliaro:

Thus we have established the credibility of the argument advanced that supports the claims of Michael Schiavo on the cause of Terri's situation. Further, let's also remember that Michael Schiavo brought a medical malpractice suit regarding this case, which automatically meant a great deal of medical attention focused on the cause of her situation:

Given this malpractice trial, it raises major doubts about the line of thinking that Michael in fact caused her situation through physical beating(s) of Terri:

So basically what we have is very little in the way of credible evidence to support the line of thinking that Terri's situation was caused by severe physical trauma from abuse by her husband. But hey, don't let that stop you from smearing his name in the mud because you don't agree with his decision...

Having family in medical practice, I can tell you that doctors and hospitals settle cases all the time; many times even when they are in the right. Why? Most of the time it's cheaper to settle out of court than fight a protracted legal battle, where even if you are in the right, you still have a chance of losing. In and of itself, this settlement does nothing to negate the charges brought by the family. The fact of the matter is that Terri's bone scans showed signs of past trauma...and to my knowledge, no suitable explanation was ever offered on how they occured.

Allegedly, Terri Schiavo confided to close friends that she wanted to divorce Michael prior to her collapse, and according to other family members Michael sometimes displayed violent tendencies both toward Terri and other members of her family.

If the family were okay with letting her go...then there wouldn't be an issue here. But since they aren't, I simply don't understand why he remains so adamantly in favor of ending her life.

[SFL Cat]

Although I can't vouch for the authenticity of this affidavit (I have only found copies of it on pro-life type sites), this is reportedly from one of Terri's hospice care-givers. There are supposedly other affidavits from other nurses similar to this one.

AFFIDAVIT
*
STATE OF FLORIDA********** )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS**** )
*
*********** BEFORE ME the undersigned authority personally appeared CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N., who being first duly sworn, deposes and says:
1.******************** My name is Carla Sauer Iyer.* I am over the age of eighteen and make this statement of my own personal knowledge.
2.******************** I am a registered nurse in the State of Florida, having been licensed continuously in Florida from 1997 to the present.* Prior to that I was a Licensed Practical Nurse for about four years.
3.******************** I was employed at Palm Garden of Largo Convalescent Center in Largo, Florida from April of 1995 to July 1996, while Terri Schiavo was a patient there.
4.******************** It was clear to me at Palm Gardens that all decisions regarding Terri Schiavo were made by Michael Schiavo, with no allowance made for any discussion, debate or normal professional judgment.* My initial training there consisted solely of the instruction “Do what Michael Schiavo tells you or you will be terminated.”* This struck me as extremely odd.
5.******************** I was very disturbed by the decision making protocol, as no allowance whatsoever was made for professional responsibility.* The atmosphere throughout the facility was dominated by Mr. Schiavo’s intimidation.* Everyone there, with the exception of several people who seemed to be close to Michael, was intimidated by him.* Michael Schiavo always had an overbearing attitude, yelling numerous times such things as “This is my order and you’re going to follow it.”* He is very large and uses menacing body language, such as standing too close to you, getting right in your face and practically shouting.
6.******************** To the best of my recollection, rehabilitation had been ordered for Terri, but I never saw any being done or had any reason at all to believe that there was ever any rehab of Terri done at Palm Gardens while I was there.* I became concerned because nothing was being done for Terri at all, no antibiotics, no tests, no range of motion therapy, no stimulation, no nothing.* Michael said again and again that Terri should NOT get any rehab, that there should be no range of motion whatsoever, or anything else.* I and a CNA named Roxy would give Terri range of motion anyway.* One time I put a wash cloth in Terri’s hand to keep her fingers from curling together, and Michael saw it and made me take it out, saying that was therapy.*****
7.******************** Terri’s medical condition was systematically distorted and misrepresented.* When I worked with her, she was alert and oriented.* Terri spoke on a regular basis while in my presence, saying such things as “mommy,” and “help me.”* “Help me” was, in fact, one of her most frequent utterances.* I heard her say it hundreds of times.** Terri would try to say the word “pain” when she was in discomfort, but it came out more like “pay.”* She didn’t say the “n” sound very well.* During her menses she would indicate her discomfort by saying “pay” and moving her arms toward her lower abdominal area.* Other ways that she would indicate that she was in pain included pursing her lips, grimacing, thrashing in bed, curling her toes or moving her legs around.* She would let you know when she had a bowel movement by flipping up the covers and pulling on her diaper.**
8.******************** When I came into her room and said “Hi, Terri”, she would always recognize my voice and her name, and would turn her head all the way toward me, saying “Haaaiiiii” sort of, as she did.* I recognized this as a “hi”, which is very close to what it sounded like, the whole sound being only a second or two long.* When I told her humorous stories about my life or something I read in the paper, Terri would chuckle, sometimes more a giggle or laugh.* She would move her whole body, upper and lower.* Her legs would sometimes be off the bed, and need to be repositioned.*** I made numerous entries into the nursing notes in her chart, stating verbatim what she said and her various behaviors, but by my next on-duty shift, the notes would be deleted from her chart.* Every time I made a positive entry about any responsiveness of Terri’s, someone would remove it after my shift ended.* Michael always demanded to see her chart as soon as he arrived, and would take it in her room with him.*** I documented Terri’s rehab potential well, writing whole pages about Terri’s responsiveness, but they would always be deleted by the next time I saw her chart.* The reason I wrote so much was that everybody else seemed to be afraid to make positive entries for fear of their jobs, but I felt very strongly that a nurses job was to accurately record everything we see and hear that bears on a patients condition and their family.* I upheld the Nurses Practice Act, and if it cost me my job, I was willing to accept that.
9.******************** Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri’s death.* Michael would say “When is she going to die?,” “Has she died* yet?” and “When is that bitch gonna die?”* These statements were common knowledge at Palm Gardens, as he would make them casually in passing, without regard even for who he was talking to, as long as it was a staff member.* Other statements which I recall him making include “Can’t you do anything to accelerate her death - won’t she ever die?”* When she wouldn’t die, Michael would be furious.* Michael was also adamant that the family should not be given information.* He made numerous statements such as “Make sure the parents aren’t contacted.”** I recorded Michael’s statements word for word in Terri’s chart, but these entries were also deleted after the end of my shift.* Standing orders were that the family wasn’t to be contacted, in fact, there was a large sign in the front of her chart that said under no circumstances was her family to be called, call Michael immediately, but I would call them, anyway, because I thought they should know about their daughter.
10.****************** Any time Terri would be sick, like with a UTI or fluid buildup in her lungs, colds, pneumonia, Michael would be visibly excited, thrilled even, hoping that she would die.* He would call me, as I was the nurse supervisor on the floor, and ask for every little detail about her temperature, blood pressure, etc., and would call back frequently asking if she was dead yet.* He would blurt out “I’m going to be rich!,” and would talk about all the things he would buy when Terri died, which included a new car, a new boat, and going to Europe, among other things.
11.****************** When Michael visited Terri, he always came alone and always had the door closed and locked while he was with Terri.* He would typically be there about twenty minutes or so.* When he left Terri would would be trembling, crying hysterically, and would be very pale and have cold sweats.* It looked to me like Terri was having a hypoglycemic reaction, so I’d check her blood sugar.* The glucometer reading would be so low it was below the range where it would register an actual number reading.* I would put dextrose in Terri’s* mouth to counteract it.* This happened about five times on my shift as I recall.* Normally Terri’s blood sugar levels were very stable due to the uniformity of her diet through tube feeding.* It is my belief that Michael injected Terri with Regular insulin, which is very fast acting.
12.****************** The longer I was employed at Palm Gardens the more concerned* I became about patient care, both relating to Terri Schiavo, for the reasons I’ve said, and other patients, too.* There was an LPN named Carolyn Adams, known as “Andy” Adams who was a particular concern.* An unusual number of patients seemed to die on her shift, but she was completely unconcerned, making statements such as “They are old - let them die.”* I couldn’t believe her attitude or the fact that it didn’t seem to attract any attention.* She made many comments about Terri being a waste of money, that she should die.* She said it was costing Michael a lot of money to keep her alive, and that he complained about it constantly (I heard him complain about it all the time, too.)** Both Michael and Adams said that she would be worth more to him if she were dead.* I ultimately called the police relative to this situation, and was terminated the next day.* Other reasons were cited, but I was convinced it was because of my “rocking the boat.”*******
13.****************** Ms. Adams was one of the people who did not seem to be intimidated by Michael.* In fact, they seemed to be very close, and Adams would do whatever Michael told her.* Michael sometimes called Adams at night and spoke at length.* I was not able to hear the content of these phone calls, but I knew it was him talking to her because she would tell me afterward and relay orders from him.
14.****************** While at Palm Gardens, I became fearful for my personal safety.* This was due to Michael’s constant intimidation, including his menacing body language, vocal tone and mannerisms.
15.****************** I have contacted the Schindler family because I just couldn’t stand by and let Terri die without the truth being known. *********
*********** FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NAUGHT.
*
*********************************************************************************** ***********************************************************
*********************************************************************************** * CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N.
***********************************************************************
The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me this _____ day of September, 2003, by* CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N., who produced her Florida driver’s license as identification, and who did / did not take an oath.
*
*
*********************************************************************** ***************************************************************************
*********************************************************************** Notary Public
My commission expires:

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Having family in medical practice, I can tell you that doctors and hospitals settle cases all the time; many times even when they are in the right. Why? Most of the time it's cheaper to settle out of court than fight a protracted legal battle, where even if you are in the right, you still have a chance of losing. In and of itself, this settlement does nothing to negate the charges brought by the family. The fact of the matter is that Terri's bone scans showed signs of past trauma...and to my knowledge, no suitable explanation was ever offered on how they occured.

Regardless of whether you fully support the findings that undiagnosed bulimia led to a potassium imbalance that caused her heart attack, the medical malpractice suit was a great opportunity for someone to advance the argument that in fact it was severe physical trauma that caused her collapse. The defendents had every financial incentive to pursue that line of questioning if they felt it had any validity, yet they did not. The opportunity was there - the bone scan in question happened in 1991, the medical malpractice suit in 1993 - yet it went unpursued.

As for the results of the bone scan, there are plenty of suitable explanations for the trauma including evidence consistent with bulimia, a fall, and CPR by paramedics.

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Allegedly, Terri Schiavo confided to close friends that she wanted to divorce Michael prior to her collapse, and according to other family members Michael sometimes displayed violent tendencies both toward Terri and other members of her family.

Again, don't you suppose if these claims had any validity they would've been brought up and examined in any of the multiple court cases surrounding this issue? I could start a rumor that George W. Bush skins kittens for their fur, and someone could say that GWB "allegedly" skins kittens. Doesn't make it a valid allegation.

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

If the family were okay with letting her go...then there wouldn't be an issue here. But since they aren't, I simply don't understand why he remains so adamantly in favor of ending her life.

Because the husband genuinely believes this is what she would've wanted in this situation. Apparently you can't grasp this concept, as it's been repeated innumerable times already in this thread.

[Arles]

He would blurt out “I’m going to be rich!,” and would talk about all the things he would buy when Terri died, which included a new car, a new boat, and going to Europe, among other things.

I have a real hard time believing he said that. I could also see him trying to keep certain information from the family to not get their hopes up. That said, if this can be corroborated, it adds a new wrinkle to the situation.

Still, it doesn't jive with everything else. If all he wanted was money, why not just divorse her after the initial cash settlement and move on?

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Although I can't vouch for the authenticity of this affidavit (I have only found copies of it on pro-life type sites), this is reportedly from one of Terri's hospice care-givers. There are supposedly other affidavits from other nurses similar to this one.

So there seem to be two possibilities here:

1. This claim (and the others) have some validity, and the courts have been complelely negligent and incompetant in ignoring these claims, or;

2. This claim (and the others) have been found to be not credible.

Given the amount of litigation in this case and the extreme attention it has received, you'd have to be extremely paranoid or partisan to believe option #1.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Arles

I have a real hard time believing he said that. I could also see him trying to keep certain information from the family to not get their hopes up. That said, if this can be corroborated, it adds a new wrinkle to the situation.

Still, it doesn't jive with everything else. If all he wanted was money, why not just divorse her after the initial cash settlement and move on?

Thank you for being rational Arlie. This claim is highly suspect, seeing as how it's not exactly new (see the September 2003 date) and it doesn't seem to have affected any of the appeals thus far.

[SunDancer]

Interesting thoughts....
Questions:
1) The new "methods" they have now, how long do you keep trying for? Medicine is a pretty "fast-evolving" field with new experiments, drugs, technology coming out? How long do you keep trying for?

2) If Michael did not have the character questions that he has, yet still had parnets that fight him, would this still be an issue?

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Given the amount of litigation in this case and the extreme attention it has received, you'd have to be extremely paranoid or partisan to believe option #1.

You're right, mistakes are never made. Nothing ever gets dropped down between the cracks.

TAMPA, Fla. - A man who has spent 17 years on death row for a slaying to
which another man had repeatedly confessed will go free because prosecutors say they don't have enough evidence to proceed with a court-ordered retrial.

Prosecutors decided Thursday not to retry Juan Melendez, who was
convicted on witness testimony for the 1983 killing of cosmetology school
owner Delbert Baker. No physical evidence linked Melendez to the slaying.

Melendez, 50, lost several rounds of appeals and had his death sentence upheld by the Florida Supreme Court until the transcript of the other man's confession to the Polk County slaying was discovered in 1999.

Defense attorneys said the true killer, a now deceased man named Vernon James, confessed to at least four investigators or attorneys, but none of those admissions were admitted in court.

[Masked]

Originally Posted by SunDancer

Interesting thoughts....
Questions:
1) The new "methods" they have now, how long do you keep trying for? Medicine is a pretty "fast-evolving" field with new experiments, drugs, technology coming out? How long do you keep trying for?

There is nothing that can be done now or possibly ever once you cerebral cortex is gone.

[SunDancer]

Originally Posted by Masked

There is nothing that can be done now or possibly ever once you cerebral cortex is gone.

I agree, but the family claims new treatments can be tried, ect..

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

You're right, mistakes are never made. Nothing ever gets dropped down between the cracks.

Never said mistakes don't happen. If further evidence comes forward to corroborate these claims against Michael Schiavo, I'll change my opinion on the matter regarding his motives, but until that time comes I'll regard this unverified affadavit with heavy skepticism.

As an aside, I think you'll find that the vast majority of situations like you cited are cases that don't receive much public scrutiny while the errors are being made. That's not the case with Terri Schiavo...

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by SunDancer

I agree, but the family claims new treatments can be tried, ect..

The family seems to be under the illusion that their daughter has some cognitive function, and they've been pushing so hard for so long to keep her alive that it's not hard to imagine that they're willing to believe in any glimmer of hope for Terri.

Never say never - it's certainly possible that in the future, medical science will advance enough that the devestation to her cerebral cortex might be reversed - but at this point there doesn't seem to be anything that could be done to bring her anywhere close to normalcy. To review, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Never said mistakes don't happen. If further evidence comes forward to corroborate these claims against Michael Schiavo, I'll change my opinion on the matter regarding his motives, but until that time comes I'll regard this unverified affadavit with heavy skepticism.

Fair enough.

As an aside, I think you'll find that the vast majority of situations like you cited are cases that don't receive much public scrutiny while the errors are being made. That's not the case with Terri Schiavo...

The Schiavo case has been in the news for a long time down here. It didn't really gain extensive national exposure until relatively recently.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Fair enough.



The Schiavo case has been in the news for a long time down here. It didn't really gain national exposure until relatively recently.

That's not true. The Shiavo case has gotten national exposure every time one of these "deadlines" came in the last couple of years.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

The Schiavo case has been in the news for a long time down here. It didn't really gain extensive national exposure until relatively recently.

Even local news attention is more than most cases get.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

That's not true. The Shiavo case has gotten national exposure every time one of these "deadlines" came in the last couple of years.

Considering this all started back in 1990, I would consider that "relatively recently."

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Considering this all started back in 1990, I would consider that "relatively recently."

But not so recent that there could have been the errors like you were quoting from other cases. In other words, you're comparing apples and oranges.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

And as we quibble, the Terri Schiavo starvation diet is fast approaching Day 5.

And she has already left the building a long time ago.

[SFL Cat]

And as we quibble, the Terri Schiavo starvation diet is fast approaching Day 5.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

And she has already left the building a long time ago.

Says the expert. So you can guarantee she is feeling no pain or discomfort as she is starved to death?

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

And as we quibble, the Terri Schiavo starvation diet is fast approaching Day 5.

At least you're consistent...when you can't find facts or logic to back your position, you go right to the old standbys of unsubstantiated claims, rumor, innunendo, speculation and finally sensationalism!

[SFL Cat]

Thanks for the sweet bash, Blackie!

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Says the expert. So you can guarantee she is feeling no pain or discomfort as she is starved to death?

Do you know much about how the brain works? She has no higher brain functions, i.e. the things that give us awareness, cognition. Given what science knows about how the brain works, it is incredibly unlikely she feels anything at all.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Says the expert. So you can guarantee she is feeling no pain or discomfort as she is starved to death?

I would say yes. If your brain is liquid, your brain is liquid. I would also say the experts have a much better grip on what is going on than you.

[SunDancer]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

The family seems to be under the illusion that their daughter has some cognitive function, and they've been pushing so hard for so long to keep her alive that it's not hard to imagine that they're willing to believe in any glimmer of hope for Terri.

Never say never - it's certainly possible that in the future, medical science will advance enough that the devestation to her cerebral cortex might be reversed - but at this point there doesn't seem to be anything that could be done to bring her anywhere close to normalcy. To review, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid.

Thats what I though. I never say never. But medicial advantages don't happen over night, and it takes years to get it from the research stage to the "approved market" stage, and tons of money. I just don't see any potential life-changing advances coming in time for Teri's sake.

[Masked]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Says the expert. So you can guarantee she is feeling no pain or discomfort as she is starved to death?

She has no concious awareness of anything.

[SFL Cat]

I dunno...I would think pain is probably a pretty primitive response to stimulus.

[Masked]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

I dunno...I would think pain is probably a pretty primitive response to stimulus.

If you prick her finger with a pin, she may pull it back in response to the noxious stimulus; that is a primitive response mediated by the spinal cord.

The concious experience of pain however is much more complex and requires the cortex, thus she is incable of experiencing it.