Virginia Tech Campus Shut Down - Shooting Incident

[Dutch]

Our flags (both American and German) were at half staff today to pay respect and acknowledge the tragedy back home at VT.

[path12]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Everything is obvious in retrospect.

QFT. Nobody knows what's going on inside somebody elses' head. There are lots of disturbed people. Very few of them do this.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I'm not saying it could be prevented. This all stemmed from the "parents are in shock" story. So my point is, this guy was far enough along a certain path that there is no way his parents (or whatever family a person in this position has) should not have been told about what was going on. I don't care if he was 10, 20 or 40 years old. What they could do for him is anyone's guess - maybe nothing, or maybe they're paying his way through school and decide he needs to come home to get help and be in the best support structure possible before he goes back to school. Don't confuse my comments with me thinking this could all have been avoided. But I think the most effective form of intervention/treatment he could have gotten would have been from family. In the end it might not have mattered, but it's unfortunate it never happened.

I thought I read somewhere that his family did try and hospitalize him at one point a couple years back, so there was at least one attempt made to get him help.

[path12]

Originally Posted by molson

I agree that as a society, we don't yet have a good handle on mental health issues (either scientificaly, culturally, legally, or medicaly). But it's not like we're not trying, we're certainly not ignoring it, and it certainly looks like this guy's issues were at least addressed to some extent.

Or financially, for that matter. Social services for the mentally ill were slashed back in the early Reagan years and to my knowledge have never gotten back to where they were.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Everything is obvious in retrospect.

I think it is safe to say that people will be a little more apt to raise issues about people like this in the future.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by path12

Or financially, for that matter. Social services for the mentally ill were slashed back in the early Reagan years and to my knowledge have never gotten back to where they were.

What's your point?

[path12]

Originally Posted by Dutch

What's your point?

My point is that there are not enough resources for the mentally ill in this country. Would you argue that?

[JHandley]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

If anything, I think I'm trying to think outside the box by recognizing that it doesn't appear that the way we deal with people like this is very effective, so what else can be done to help prevent something like this is the future?

I've got a problem with this line of thinking.

We have no idea what the success rate is for preventing this kind of outcome. None. There is no way to measure how many people would have commited this kind of atrocity but were prevented or saved by our current measures. Without knowing the success rate, we have no metric of telling if our current measures are effective or not.

There is only one person responsible and at fault for the shooting. The shooter. The fact of life is that there are people who are going to snap, you cannot prevent it from ever happening again. Any attempt to prevent this from ever happening again is futile. Admirable, but futile.

[Oilers9911]

Originally Posted by Drake

CNN: How are you feeling right now?
Student: Crappy.
CNN: Can you elaborate on that?

CNN: Were you scared?
Student: No I was shitting bricks of joy moron.
CNN: What were you thinking when you saw the gunman killing your classmates?
Student: I was wondering if I should update my Facebook page.

[King of New York]

Not to fan the flames, but all the psychiatric resources in the world are not going to help someone who does not want to be helped, or who does not perceive that he or she needs help--and the VT shooter at the moment seems to fall into that category.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by JHandley

I've got a problem with this line of thinking.

We have no idea what the success rate is for preventing this kind of outcome. None. There is no way to measure how many people would have commited this kind of atrocity but were prevented or saved by our current measures. Without knowing the success rate, we have no metric of telling if our current measures are effective or not.

There is only one person responsible and at fault for the shooting. The shooter. The fact of life is that there are people who are going to snap, you cannot prevent it from ever happening again. Any attempt to prevent this from ever happening again is futile. Admirable, but futile.

I don't know how many times I have to say that prevention might not be possible, no matter what steps are taken. I simply see an obvious additional measure that could be taken that might, or might not, help to prevent something like this from happening. I understand your point, but I disagree.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

Very sorry and upsetting to read and hear what happened.

For what it's worth, a couple weeks ago here, a badly traumatized body was found in the stairwell of an academic building at around 10am. Some people in the building told the campus police they heard something like gunshots. By about 12:30pm, the police had locked down the campus (and in particular the building where the body was found). SWAT teams stormed the building and classrooms and locked those people down at gunpoint for a couple of hours.

Around 3pm in the afternoon, they determined the death was a suicide (the guy had jumped from the 9th floor of an internal stairwell). The next couple of days, a lot of people (myself included) were extremely mad at the way the event was handled.

This puts things in perspective a little bit. While there was griping about the handling of the event at my school, it was nothing more than that, and certainly nothing like the complaints people will have about VT's handling.

I had meant to ask you if youw ere around when this happened. Telle went to RPI with Anson, and I knew him as they were both members of the same service frat. He was a really decent fellow. He had gone through a real mess recently it appears and it finally got to him.

What was the general mood/attitude about the situation regarding him? I'm not sure how many people on campus actually knew him at all, but I hope he was remembered well.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by King of New York

Not to fan the flames, but all the psychiatric resources in the world are not going to help someone who does not want to be helped, or who does not perceive that he or she needs help--and the VT shooter at the moment seems to fall into that category.

And I think the larger question is - at what point should that person no longer be able to make that determination for him/herself? In this particular instance, I hope from the numerous warning signs Cho exhibited that he was pretty damn close to losing the right to make that decision.

This is really aside from the criminal aspect. I appreciate the limitations on law enforcement to do much of anything to a person before they act to commit an offense. It's the mental illness part of this that strikes me as problematic. Maybe it will turn out this kid was simply a mean SOB who hated certain types of people and wanted to kill them. But it seems like there's a mental illness issue here, and that clouds the issue, in my mind. So all I'm doing is questioning at what point does society intervene, and what methods of intervention do we use, to stop someone like this from continuing to progress down a certain path. And frankly, I don't think someone needs to turn into a mass murderer for this question to arise - stalking, setting fires, etc., is still objectionable behavior that ought to be brought under control.

[adubroff]

Originally Posted by JHandley

I've got a problem with this line of thinking.

We have no idea what the success rate is for preventing this kind of outcome. None. There is no way to measure how many people would have commited this kind of atrocity but were prevented or saved by our current measures. Without knowing the success rate, we have no metric of telling if our current measures are effective or not.

There is only one person responsible and at fault for the shooting. The shooter. The fact of life is that there are people who are going to snap, you cannot prevent it from ever happening again. Any attempt to prevent this from ever happening again is futile. Admirable, but futile.

I have issues with trying this sort of thing from the privacy and an efficacy standpoint, but the fact that we can't measure success shouldn't necessarily be the reason why we don't try this. There are a lot of laws/programs which can't really be measured in terms of impact.

[Ksyrup]

And I'll admit the privacy/civil rights issues are clearly the main problems with trying to draw the line any further than it is.

[Ksyrup]

A court order from 2005 states that Virginia Tech killer Cho Seung-Hui was declared mentally ill and "an imminent danger to others," a district court clerk tells CNN.

[JHandley]

Originally Posted by adubroff

I have issues with trying this sort of thing from the privacy and an efficacy standpoint, but the fact that we can't measure success shouldn't necessarily be the reason why we don't try this. There are a lot of laws/programs which can't really be measured in terms of impact.

Then how do you know if it's working? How do you know if one of the people you've caught with the wider net goes on a killing spree *because* of the larger net. Isn't it conceiveable that if you kick someone out of school and send them away to be imprisoned in a medical institution, that when they get out they won't have much to live for and thus might become a self-fulfilling prophecy? Or is the idea that we're going to give someone a life sentence because when they were 22 years old, they exhibited behaivor indicitive of someone who might possibly commit heinous crimes?

I don't have any of the answers to these questions, but I think it's naive at best and short-sighted at worst to say that what we're currently doing is a failure. That's my contention. We have no idea if what we're currently doing is or isn't effective. To assume that it isn't because these things do happen is a mistake, in my opinion.

I am all for new programs or initiatives to help with a problem like this. I just don't think they should be knee-jerk reactions that are typical 24-48 hours after the largest shooting spree of it's kind. Calling what we're doing now ineffective or a failure is absurd. I don't think we are collectively in a place where we can objectionally look at this situation and make decisions like that.

[biological warrior]

Apparently, the gunman sent a package to NBC news with a long ''tirade'' in a multi page letter, video tapes, pictures, et. ala.

[Ksyrup]

A. I never said what was being done now has "failed." I'm simply questioning if there are other things that can be done to make dealing with this issue more effective.

B. I never advocated "imprisoning" someone in a medical institution or giving them a "life sentence" for their behavior. In fact, I think I clearly delineated between the criminal aspect of the behavior and the mental illness issue. Perhaps you need to go back and re-read the discussion, because I'm not really sure you're arguing against something anyone here has advocated.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by biological warrior

Apparently, the gunman sent a package to NBC news with a long ''tirade'' in a multi page letter, video tapes, pictures, et. ala.

At the risk of the package being received too early and thus ruining his plan, I have to assume he wouldn't have sent this before Monday. Perhaps this explains at least part of what he was doing between the first and second shootings.

[adubroff]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

At the risk of the package being received too early and thus ruining his plan, I have to assume he wouldn't have sent this before Monday. Perhaps this explains at least part of what he was doing between the first and second shootings.

It's sounding like it was sent in the two hour window.

[Young Drachma]

I just read the NY Times a bit online about the incident and they linked all of the various victims and linked one kid's myspace page. What the heck is with that? Is nothing sacred? It's private now, thank goodness. But I think that's still pretty irresponsible of them. I mean, what the heck.

[adubroff]

Originally Posted by JHandley

Then how do you know if it's working? How do you know if one of the people you've caught with the wider net goes on a killing spree *because* of the larger net. Isn't it conceiveable that if you kick someone out of school and send them away to be imprisoned in a medical institution, that when they get out they won't have much to live for and thus might become a self-fulfilling prophecy? Or is the idea that we're going to give someone a life sentence because when they were 22 years old, they exhibited behaivor indicitive of someone who might possibly commit heinous crimes?

I don't have any of the answers to these questions, but I think it's naive at best and short-sighted at worst to say that what we're currently doing is a failure. That's my contention. We have no idea if what we're currently doing is or isn't effective. To assume that it isn't because these things do happen is a mistake, in my opinion.

I am all for new programs or initiatives to help with a problem like this. I just don't think they should be knee-jerk reactions that are typical 24-48 hours after the largest shooting spree of it's kind. Calling what we're doing now ineffective or a failure is absurd. I don't think we are collectively in a place where we can objectionally look at this situation and make decisions like that.

As I mentioned, I am personally against this sort of thing because of privacy/efficacy issues, but governments/societies/institutions do things all the time which can't be measured. An example would be the War on Terror (which you may or may not agree with). We have no way of knowing whether there would have been another major 911-like attack without the war on terror, so we have no way of knowing if it's "working".

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

But if this is SOP in our society for how we deal with mentally ill people, then we have a real problem.

I really really don't want to beat you up on this, mostly because I think I get where you're coming from & agree with at least some of the more general points I think you're trying to make. But ...

This situation wasn't handled SOP at all in my experience or opinion, it was handled with a great deal more thoroughly & with more apparent interest than most people with mental/emotional disorders ever see.

I'm actually rather surprised that this sort of incident doesn't occur more often than it does.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Meanwhile, from the "I didn't realize that" section of this story, I didn't realize until a little while ago that the poet who spoke so well at yesterday's convocation was the instructor who had the gunman removed from her class.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I really really don't want to beat you up on this, mostly because I think I get where you're coming from & agree with at least some of the more general points I think you're trying to make. But ...

This situation wasn't handled SOP at all in my experience or opinion, it was handled with a great deal more thoroughly & with more apparent interest than most people with mental/emotional disorders ever see.

I'm actually rather surprised that this sort of incident doesn't occur more often than it does.

Totally agree.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I really really don't want to beat you up on this, mostly because I think I get where you're coming from & agree with at least some of the more general points I think you're trying to make. But ...

This situation wasn't handled SOP at all in my experience or opinion, it was handled with a great deal more thoroughly & with more apparent interest than most people with mental/emotional disorders ever see.

I'm actually rather surprised that this sort of incident doesn't occur more often than it does.

And I think you're right because this guy was in a position to get some sort of help, whereas, sadly, some people with no support system whatsoever end up homeless, etc., and not enough is done to treat them. Your point is well-taken. This guy had more avenues for help than some mentally ill people do.

The recent news of the mental illness order brings the discussion ful-circle, IMO. If the parents were unaware of everything that was going on, I have an issue with that. For people with these problems who DO have a support system that can at least attempt to help, I don't see how we as a society can be content with allowing the state, even with an assist from the university in this particular instance, think it can deal as effectively with monitoring an unstable person's progress as someone with a relationship to the person. That has been my point fro mthe beginning. I don't know how much more effective it could be, but I think that's a pretty big hole in the way we handle this issue is that's the case.

And of course, if they did know about it, that just raises all sorts of specific questions about the family for me.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

And I think you're right because this guy was in a position to get some sort of help, whereas, sadly, some people with no support system whatsoever end up homeless, etc., and not enough is done to treat them. Your point is well-taken. This guy had more avenues for help than some mentally ill people do.

The recent news of the mental illness order brings the discussion ful-circle, IMO. If the parents were unaware of everything that was going on, I have an issue with that. For people with these problems who DO have a support system that can at least attempt to help, I don't see how we as a society can be content with allowing the state, even with an assist from the university in this particular instance, think it can deal as effectively with monitoring an unstable person's progress as someone with a relationship to the person. That has been my point fro mthe beginning. I don't know how much more effective it could be, but I think that's a pretty big hole in the way we handle this issue is that's the case.

And of course, if they did know about it, that just raises all sorts of specific questions about the family for me.

-The parents knew he was nuts, they had him committed
-The school knew he was nuts, they removed him from a class where he was harrasing people.
-The police knew he was nuts, they referred him for a mental evaluation

This is what we know about 48 hours later. I'd be willing to bet there was extensive counseling and medication. He didn't fall through the cracks.

The easiest thing in the world is to say that something else could have been done. That's ALWAYS ture. You could have worked harder in your job today, I could have studied more for the bar exam, this nutjob could have gotten 75 hours of counseling instead of 70. It's not an answer.

I thought you might have been suggesting more involuntary committments earlier but then you backed off that. Personally, I don't think we do enough involuntary committments. Understandbly, it's very difficult for a judge to agree to such a thing BEFORE someone commits a crime - the constitution is quite a roadblock to that. I don't know enough about this guy to have an opinion whether he should have been involuntarily committed. But without any violent criminal record, it's EXTREMELY difficult.

[molson]

The one problem I have with VT is academic - how they did they admit this guy?

I read this quote from a department head:

"At first he would hardly say anything, and I was lucky to get, say, in 30 minutes, four or five monosyllabic answers from him," she said. "But bit by bit, he began to tell me things."

That scene sounds like it should be taking place in a mental hospital or a grade school - not an institution of higher learning. Maybe he had a decent SAT score - but don't you need a letter of recomendation, personal essay, interview, some semblance of extracurricular activites? He high school grades must have been crap, it seems he barely did anything in his college classes. We're not talking about a crap school here, VT cracks the top 80 or so in the US News rankings.

[molson]

The professor also said this, which sums up my main point in this thread:

"Roy wonders now whether things would have turned out differently had she continued their sessions. But Giovanni sees no reason for people who had interactions with Cho to beat themselves up.

'I know that there's a tendency to think that everybody can get counseling or can have a bowl of tomato soup and everything is going to be all right,' she said. 'But I think that evil exists, and I think that he was a mean person."

The one thing the criticizers have to realize is that there are living people who must be struggling with "what could I have done" - from VT administrators to those who dealt with him at a personal level. I doubt all of them are handling it as well as this professor, and it's not fair to subject them the guilt and stress for this.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Wow, after seeing the video released by NBC.
Just, wow.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Wow, after seeing the video released by NBC.
Just, wow.

*loads up MSNBC.COM*

[JonInMiddleGA]

On the one hand, the video is kind of startling.
On the other hand, I was struck by how ... damn, I hate to say "common", maybe "not all that unusual" is a better phrase, the anger & the targets of it all seemed to be.

The biggest difference, of course, being the way he ultimately chose to act on it versus how countless other people who have had the same general feelings act upon them.

I'm almost convinced at this point that there's some key event in the killer's life that we haven't heard about yet, something that took him over the edge to all of this. It may very well not be anything that would have seemed particularly significant at the time - a breakup, a rejection, some specific bullying incident, whatever - but will likely be the difference between him being a fucked up college student and someone capable & willing to commit mass murder.

[adubroff]

Originally Posted by wade moore

*loads up MSNBC.COM*

They are also doing a discussion on Hardball as well. They had the director of NBC news discussing how they handled getting the package,etc.

[wade moore]

The bit I saw (I saw a Brian Williams piece that showed clips - is that what you saw?) was definitely unsettling.. but you're right, he didn't seem umm... out of control angry? It was kind of a weird, calm anger... But yeah, not necessarily something you don't see often in other people...

I am curious about the pronouns he uses... who "you could have stopped me"... "blood is on your hands"... etc is... I'm sure that some of it could be general, but you have to wonder if there are some specific people that it is directed to.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by adubroff

They are also doing a discussion on Hardball as well. They had the director of NBC news discussing how they handled getting the package,etc.

Argh, I have to figure out what channel MSNBC is on my team ...

[wade moore]

Man.. in his multi-page tirade apparently he references the Columbine kids as amongst "us martyrs"...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by wade moore

The bit I saw (I saw a Brian Williams piece that showed clips - is that what you saw?) was definitely unsettling.. but you're right, he didn't seem umm... out of control angry? It was kind of a weird, calm anger... But yeah, not necessarily something you don't see often in other people...

Yeah, that was where I saw the clips, we figured they would air them before anyone else got permission to use excerpts.

That sort of anger was very familiar to me. People who know me know that when I'm ranting, raving, and generally foaming at the mouth I'm pretty much harmless. That sort of controlled rage however ... well, that's when it's probably better for everyone to be somewhere other than where I am. Among other things, that's why I stopped carrying a gun years ago.

I'm not kidding when I say that the phrase "There but for the grace of God ..." has crossed my mind more than once in the past day.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm not kidding when I say that the phrase "There but for the grace of God ..." has crossed my mind more than once in the past day.

I don't believe you're the only one. I think many, if not most of us are capable of that evil.

[adubroff]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I don't believe you're the only one. I think many, if not most of us are capable of that evil.

I am not sure capable is the right word. I think everybody is capable of the rage. What I think separates the sane and the insane (in this case) is the ability to deal with the rage.

[Easy Mac]

I think there's such a huge number of things that played into the shaping of his emotions that to think some group of things setting him off is a bit much. This wasn't some spur of the moment decision, he more or less started planning a month, month and a half in advance.

I never really got the feeling that the words he said in the video he really meant. It A)Actually sounded like the ravings of a lunatic who unfortunately couldn't be "saved" and B)Calculated, like this is what I'm supposed to say and how I'm supposed to act, pose for the camera, write a long diatribe, talk in a stern but controlled manner. I'm not sure how those two ideas fit together, but that's what I gleamed from it. I don't think there was necesarily anything that "set him off", I just think a person who was enough of a sociopath to pull it off just couldn't handle the weight of never being able to find a place where he belonged and over time was just able to build enough of a resistance to whatever shame he may feel to get around and finishing it in the most sensational, Hollywood way.

[Passacaglia]

I agree with B. There were times where I thought he was reading a script.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I agree with B. There were times where I thought he was reading a script.

To be fair, if that's necessary, he was... but I understand what you're referring to.

[cougarfreak]

I suppose the photos were taken with a camera on a timer? No one behind the camera? I just thought of that.

[Izulde]

Well it's apparent he wrote some of it down. I noticed in one section that he's looking down at sheets of paper that he has in his hand.

I do think it was an accumulation of events and factors that led to a high probability of this occurring, but at the same time, it's my suspicion that there was a, to use the vernacular "trigger event" that finally pushed him over and made him think there was nothing left to live for.

[adubroff]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

I suppose the photos were taken with a camera on a timer? No one behind the camera? I just thought of that.

They said there are parts where you can see him reach forward to shut the camera off, which would suggest no help. I'm sure they'll pore over them all though to make sure.

[wade moore]

KS - I still think I can relate to where you're coming from... but again I wonder.. what if this is a 40 year old grad/doctoral student? Should we get their parents involved then? This whole parent angle bothers me because they're adults. I think they went above and beyond what I would have expected to hear here.

Bad things happen. Sometimes there's just only so much you can realistically do.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Bad things happen. Sometimes there's just only so much you can realistically do.

And a lot of people simply cannot accept this. There are a lot of things that we realistically cannot prevent. Even if a million warning signs are there, ultimately there is still very little that can be done if someone is disturbed enough or dead-set enough on making something like this happen.

It's a tragedy, but I think there is practically nothing that can be done to prevent something like this from happening again in a month. That's just the price we pay to live in a free society.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

And a lot of people simply cannot accept this. There are a lot of things that we realistically cannot prevent. Even if a million warning signs are there, ultimately there is still very little that can be done if someone is disturbed enough or dead-set enough on making something like this happen.

It's a tragedy, but I think there is practically nothing that can be done to prevent something like this from happening again in a month. That's just the price we pay to live in a free society.

That's a good point and I agree with you. But here some people talk the past few days, the "free society" part may get less free. In order to combat and make laws based on a single example (as governments are apt to do), any violent writings, images, etc. could be tracked and logged and be made public in the interest of "preventing" something like this from happening again.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I never really got the feeling that the words he said in the video he really meant. It A)Actually sounded like the ravings of a lunatic who unfortunately couldn't be "saved" and B)Calculated, like this is what I'm supposed to say and how I'm supposed to act, pose for the camera, write a long diatribe, talk in a stern but controlled manner.

Ya, I got that too watching that. It's like he was playing the character the media created with the Columbine killers. The latter guys were portrayed for months/years as loner outcasts - they actually had quite a number of friends, girlfriends, and one was even banging a chick 7 years older then him. So I'll be a little cynical of what's reported about this nutjob - though at first glance, he seems to a true loner, a true nobody, who desperately wants to be something more interesting and more relevant.