College Football Week 10 discussion

[cartman]

Various strength of schedules vary greatly. Here's a few examples:

Solecismic:
Cincinnatti 44
Texas 58

GBE
Texas 35
Cincinnati 82


CBS Sports
Texas 40
Cincinnati 48

Sagarin
Texas 52
Cincinnati 67

Team Rankings.com
Texas 31
Cincinnati 44

Those do not support a "vastly superior" claim.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by cartman

Various strength of schedules vary greatly. Here's a few examples:

Solecismic:
Cincinnatti 44
Texas 58

GBE
Texas 35
Cincinnati 82


CBS Sports
Texas 40
Cincinnati 48

Sagarin
Texas 52
Cincinnati 67

Team Rankings.com
Texas 31
Cincinnati 44

Those do not support a "vastly superior" claim.

It will be interesting to see what those look like in three weeks. Cincy has the two toughest games on their whole schedule in front of them. If they go through the next three unscathed, I'll be impressed.

[mauchow]

Fresno St will finished the season ranked, assuming they win their last three games.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by molson

They're already ahead in the computer polls,

Really?

College Football Ranking Comparison

There are 60 in there right now, and usually by Wed/Thur. they have over 100 computer polls listed. Right now, Texas is #1 in 11 polls, with #7 being their lowest ranking. Cincinnati's highest rank is #2 in 2 polls, with #20 being their lowest ranking.

edit: misread your post. I see you mean the BCS computers. There is a strange one with the Sagarin ranking. The one used by the BCS is the ranking that has Texas the lowest and Cincinnati the highest. Sagarin also publishes another computer ranking, called 'Predictor', and says this one is a much better representation of how his formula sees things. That one has Texas at 2 and Cincinnati at 11.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Let's not pretend like Cincy has some uber OOC schedule or something. At Oregon State is a difficult game but that's the only real toughie out there. SE Missouri State, Fresno State and Miami (OH) is hardly the way to ensure you are selected for the BCS over a team in a power conference.

Yep. And it's worth noting that Cincy's schedule is currently rated slightly below Texas in Sagarin's ratings.

The road win against Oregon State is a good one, but they needed another good OOC win to get past an undefeated team from the Big-12 or SEC.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Matthean

And as somebody who has been watching Brian Kelly from his GVSU days, I get fairly pissed at the idea of how Michigan missed out on him and the idea that they very likely might miss out on him again and instead we got the RR debacle.

I'm a big fan of Brian Kelly, but I'm curious why you'd expect that he would've been a better choice than RichRod? They run very similar offenses, ones that are a significant change from what Michigan ran under Carr. Neither one is known for fantastic defenses. They have pretty similar resumes in terms of success.

I suppose there's the off the field factor that was highlighted in the messy divorce between RichRod and West Virginia, but it's my understanding that Kelly has some possible PR issues as well.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by molson

Maybe, but I think we're getting close to the point where maybe the issues are with the program, not with the revolving door of coaches. Maybe after the next one "fails", expectations will get a little more realistic. Probably not though.

Weis has been able to recruit quite well according to the recruiting sites. I don't think it's implausible that with the quality of recruit that Notre Dame can still attract married to a great scheme like Kelly's could result in success that's not much less than Florida under Meyer.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Then why not just set the championship game with the top 2 teams in the Preseason polls? That is what matters, right? Not what you accomplished on the field.

I'm not saying its right, I'm just saying I think the reasoning is a hell of a lot simpler than it being entirely a screwjob about money and ratings. The preseason rankings are a bigger factor than any of those things IMO.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I'm a big fan of Brian Kelly, but I'm curious why you'd expect that he would've been a better choice than RichRod? They run very similar offenses, ones that are a significant change from what Michigan ran under Carr. Neither one is known for fantastic defenses. They have pretty similar resumes in terms of success.

I suppose there's the off the field factor that was highlighted in the messy divorce between RichRod and West Virginia, but it's my understanding that Kelly has some possible PR issues as well.

I think he has a better understanding of how to build a program. Not that Michigan really needed building. Kelly has dealt vastly with a rotation of QBs and yet succeeds with them. He took CMU to a bowl game with as few seniors as just about anybody and not that many more juniors and won. He's looking to be 2 for 2 at winning the Big East title. He's succeeding at places that aren't hot beds for talent. He doesn't wait to get "his guys." He just wins where ever he goes. Kelly's PR issues have to be better than what RR has done. Hello, NCAA. Have to wonder if Mallet really would have left knowing Kelly was coming in. I don't say that as a slam on Forcier either.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by cartman

Various strength of schedules vary greatly. Here's a few examples:

Solecismic:
Cincinnatti 44
Texas 58

GBE
Texas 35
Cincinnati 82


CBS Sports
Texas 40
Cincinnati 48

Sagarin
Texas 52
Cincinnati 67

Team Rankings.com
Texas 31
Cincinnati 44

Those do not support a "vastly superior" claim.

Cincinnati finishes up with 2 ranked teams which will raise their SOS dramatically. Texas has no one left on their schedule and should see it hover where it's at or possibly drop depending on how some of their previous opponents do. Cincinnati will finish the season with a better SOS. I also wouldn't be surprised if TCU did as well (if Clemson can win the ACC).

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Matthean

I think he has a better understanding of how to build a program. Not that Michigan really needed building. Kelly has dealt vastly with a rotation of QBs and yet succeeds with them. He took CMU to a bowl game with as few seniors as just about anybody and not that many more juniors and won. He's looking to be 2 for 2 at winning the Big East title. He's succeeding at places that aren't hot beds for talent. He doesn't wait to get "his guys." He just wins where ever he goes. Kelly's PR issues have to be better than what RR has done. Hello, NCAA. Have to wonder if Mallet really would have left knowing Kelly was coming in. I don't say that as a slam on Forcier either.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Kelly isn't flashy, doesn't run a gimmick offense, doesn't recruit big names. He just wins wherever he goes. His career has a lot of similarities to Urban Meyer.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think you hit the nail on the head. Kelly isn't flashy, doesn't run a gimmick offense, doesn't recruit big names. He just wins wherever he goes. His career has a lot of similarities to Urban Meyer.

So what constitutes a "gimmick" offense in your view?

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, that was an interesting comment... considering he believes neither Meyer nor Kelly run "gimmick offenses", which has been a constant charge against both of them in the past.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

OOC schedule wise, Cincy has two wins over teams that are better than anyone Texas had on their OOC schedule (Fresno State and Oregon State).

This. And you really can't blame Cincy for playing Miami of Ohio. I mean they've only been playing for over 100 years. And I believe they are the 3rd longest continuous rivalry in college football.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

So what constitutes a "gimmick" offense in your view?

June Jones at Hawaii, Mike Leach at Texas Tech. A coach that needs a certain set of personnel to win. I think Kelly and Meyer are innovative, but are able to adapt to the personnel they are given. They recruit the best players available and then build their gameplan to utilize those players. Next season, Florida's offense will dramatically change. That wouldn't happen under Rodriguez.

I think Meyer and Kelly could have stepped into Michigan last year and won at least 7 games with that talent.

[BishopMVP]

Oh god, since Mr. Wednesday isn't here now I have to do a CR-length post.

Originally Posted by Balldog

I'm having a hard time understanding your point.

I was going against his points, either that ND had been upset by inferior opponents, allegedly unlike other top-10 recruiting teams, or that ND loses 5 games every year. The second one makes no sense since the team has lost 3, 3, 9, 6, and between 3-6 under Weis. So I went after the first one, since every prestigious team other Alabama, Florida and Texas has lost a game this year to an allegedly inferior talent team. Ohio St. did have that incredibly impressive run of not being upset, but I wasn't saying they're the poster child for national title contender blowing a gimme - that'd by bhlloy's USC - just that it happens to everybody.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Weis has to go. It's not the fact that he's not winning, it's the fact he's not winning with some of the best recruiting classes in the nation. Here is where his classes have ranked.

2006 - 8th
2007 - 8th
2008 - 2nd

Now I know the rankings aren't everything, but if you look at the other teams that are consistently in the top 10, they are all much more succesful schools. He has the talent at Notre Dame where they should be a top 10 team year in and year out. For whatever reason, he has not been able to develop that talent properly.

2003 - #6
2004 - #30
2005 - #27

Without even getting into whether ND (and most other big schools) have inflated recruiting rankings, the one good class had 7 players drafted and an 8th (Samardzija) who would have been. 2004 had none, 2005 had 3-4, 2006 looks like a year you can say they missed badly, but then 2007 and 2008 both look on track for 6+ draftees. The 5* recruits, where inflation doesn't really occur, over 2007-2009 are projected 1st round picks (Clausen, Floyd, Rudolph), a backup QB with more potential than Clausen (Crist) backup guard (true FR Chris Watt) and 2 of our 4 best defensive players despite being true FR/SO (Ethan Johnson, Manti Te'o). So you could ignorantly state talent isn't being developed, or recognize the huge gap between the 2003 class and the current juniors/below, and see how the next couple drafts play out.

If we ignore that ND had pretty poor classes that are now the seniors and RS seniors, and just look at all the teams consistently in the top 10/15 recruiting rankings, they're not all better teams, and if you looked at my post you'd see those teams like Michigan, FSU, Georgia, Tennessee, Auburn listed.

The Navy losses are unacceptable. I've said that Navy isn't a bad team, but still, Notre Dame has a massive talent advantage. They outweighed that team by 50 pounds and about 4 inches on the line. They have a slew of NFL prospects. Navy has no business being in a game with that team on the road. To put up 21 points when you have one of the most talented QBs in the nation along with a great set of Wide Receivers and an offensive line that has a dramatic advantage in size, it's an issue with the coaching staff.

The 2007 team was horrific, and it would have been embarrassing for Navy if they didn't beat us that year. As for this year and the 21 points, do you actually watch the games or even read my posts? ND turned the ball over 3 times inside the 5, missed 2 FG's, gained 570 yards and never punted. If ND's players execute on any one of those 5 possessions is Charlie Weis suddenly a good coach? No, opposing fans would be saying he barely beat a bad Navy team at home despite Pitt having the #11/#8 classes in 2006 and 2007 and only winning 27-14 at home, and Ohio St with all their talent only winning 31-27 in Columbus. I blame him for a lot of things, but at a certain point it's on the players to execute.

I know Bishop is saying their 6-3 record isn't bad, their schedule has actually been rather easy. They have only played one ranked opponent all year and their only quality win is against an unranked Boston College squad at home. 7 of their 9 games have been at home this season. With that kind of schedule, there is no reason this team should not be 8-1 with the talent they have.

I'm not saying the schedule is great, I'm saying it has been better than expected, or been given credit for. Going off Sagarin, it's ranked higher than any of the undefeated teams, and if any of those teams went undefeated against ND's schedule they'd be locks for the title game.

If I'm a Notre Dame fan, I root for whatever scenario gets Weis out of there. I also don't know if you need to go with a huge name in the coaching world. Why not poach a guy from a non-BCS or lower tiered conference who has been dominating? Gary Patterson at TCU, Mike London at Richmond, or Kyle Whittingham at Utah.

While there are plenty of intriguing lower-tier coaches (I really like Whipple and Malzahn in addition to Patterson), none of them is a guarantee. You have your hits (Meyer, Johnson, Kelly etc) but you also have your misses (Koetter/Hawkins from Boise, Richmond's last coach Dave Clawson at Tennessee come to mind, Dennis Franchione from TCU.) After firing 3 straight coaches, you really don't want anything less than an unassailable sure-fire candidate, and going non-BCS or particularly FCS is such a huge risk I only see it happening if they miss out on their "top" candidates and it's a huge 2-3 week long mess. (And even then they'd probably hire a safe, unexciting BCS coach like they did with Willingham and George O'Leary in the recent past.)

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Above average is a stretch. They are 6-3 against an easy schedule that has had them play 7 of their 9 games at home. They've lost to a Navy team that has much less talent and a Michigan squad that started a Freshman QB and is 1-5 in the below average Big 10. If they don't beat Pittsburgh, they'll finish the season without a win against a top 25 school.

3-9=.250=Below Average
6-6=.500=Average
6-3=.667=Above Average

Considering there are 120 teams, I'm quite confident putting ND somewhere in the 20-50 set, which is above-average in my mind.

That is a team that would be in the bottom half of just about every BCS conference in the country.

Which ones? The Big 10 where we've beaten the two middle teams (and been upset by a bottom feeder in what sadly is either the Big 10's best or 2nd best OOC win)? The Big 12 with that North Division and A&M/Baylor? The ACC when we've beaten the clear 2nd best team in the Atlantic? We'll see the next 3 weeks how they stack up against the Big East, and a better picture with the Pac-10 (who we're 2-1 vs.)

There are reasons to fire Weis and denigrate ND's program without resorting to hyperbole.

How can it not be? Cincinnati goes undefeated with a tougher schedule in a tougher conference. What possible explanation can be given for Texas being in it over them? It makes the entire system an even bigger farce than it already is. It just proves that what happens on the field doesn't matter.

Tougher schedule isn't necessarily the end-all. I'd take a Texas (or TCU) team that is destroying bad opponents over a Cincinnati that escaped 4-5 UConn. Cincy is (probably) playing 2 ranked opponents soon, so they'll get another chance to state its case, but hypothetically it is possible (and easy/frequent) for a team to look better despite playing a worse opponent.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't blame (Michigan fans) for wanting to win, but I do blame your fans for thinking that Michigan should be an 11-12 win team every season. With parity in college football and the shifting of emphasis to speed, it's just not realistic to expect a Big 10 school to be in the NC game every year. You had a good thing going by winning 9+ games a year and getting into a solid bowl and the occasional Rose Bowl.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

If you can't pull off 10 wins with this easy schedule and talent, you'll never pull it off. Maybe the standards at ND has been lowered over the years, but it's sad to see the school considering being a middle of the pack FBS school a positive trend. With the recruits they've brought in, there is no reason this school shouldn't be finishing the year with 10 wins factoring in this easy schedule.

Well, at least we know you're just playing devil's advocate at this point and changing your stance depending on which argument needs it.

Originally Posted by Swaggs

I know this post sounds tongue in cheek, but I am actually pretty surprised that any ND fans would want Weis back after this season. If Clausen leaves this year, it is hard to imagine Notre Dame not being terrible next season. If I am not mistaken, they don't have another scholarship QB coming back next season and there has been seemingly no defensive improvement, so there is a rebuilding project in place, either for Weis or whoever replaces him.

They have Dayne Crist, a 5* RS freshman who has looked more talented than Clausen, although he tore his ACL against WSU and will probably miss spring ball, and 2 verbals (4*/3*) but I don't think either will enroll early. I could point out numerous examples from the past couple years, but suffice it to say the QB (and to a lesser extent other skill position players) leaving/staying is overrated, and the O-line is highly underrated, but we are losing 2 starters there too. Obviously Clausen (plus Tate, Ian Williams and Te'o) coming back would be essential for our (probably delusional) chances at a national title, but the talent base is higher and the bottom isn't going to fall out like 2007 or last year's Michigan if he does leave.

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Yeah, that was an interesting comment... considering he believes neither Meyer nor Kelly run "gimmick offenses", which has been a constant charge against both of them in the past.

...or that either of them are "flashy".

Originally Posted by RainMaker

June Jones at Hawaii, Mike Leach at Texas Tech. A coach that needs a certain set of personnel to win.

Mike Leach's regular season win total since he started in 2000. 7, 7, 8, 7, 7, 9, 7, 8, 11, between 6-9. I think he's shown he can stick pretty much any BCS-average player in there on offense and do fine. And when he had a dominant player (Crabtree) he won more.

I think Meyer and Kelly could have stepped into Michigan last year and won at least 7 games with that talent.

I could have stepped in and won 7 games if Ryan Mallett stayed. And Bill Belichick, with Meyer or Kelly as OC would have struggled to win 7 with the rest of those QB's.

Originally Posted by Galaril

Not sure if anyone cares or already posted but it si been reproted on Bleacher reprots.com that a leak with ND's administration has said that after the loss to Navy for the second year in a row Weiss will be out after the last game and John Gruden and Brian Kelly (Cincy) top NDs coaches wishlist along with Stoops are being looked at.
hxxp://bleacherreport.com/articles/286923-the-unofficial-top-five-notre-dame-coaching-prospects

The same reports and leaks circulated for the last month last year. I highly doubt the administration has come to a conclusion yet - on the odd chance ND goes 3-0 and looks great doing it, Weis will be back.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

June Jones at Hawaii, Mike Leach at Texas Tech. A coach that needs a certain set of personnel to win. I think Kelly and Meyer are innovative, but are able to adapt to the personnel they are given. They recruit the best players available and then build their gameplan to utilize those players. Next season, Florida's offense will dramatically change. That wouldn't happen under Rodriguez.

Granted, I don't watch Florida every week, but I challenge this assertion - from what I've seen, they ran pretty much the same base offense with Chris Leak at QB that they have with Tim Tebow, and it's basically the same offense he ran with Alex Smith at Utah. That's Meyer's offensive system.

Sure, I'd be shocked if Meyer didn't fine tune his schemes to suit his specific personnel from year to year, but the offense isn't radically different - it's still a spread option offense. And I doubt he's going to change the offense dramatically next year.

I think Meyer and Kelly could have stepped into Michigan last year and won at least 7 games with that talent.

That might be true - I think Meyer is arguably the top coach in the game right now, and it may well be that Kelly is better than RichRod. But they both would've run their versions of the spread formation, and it's possible that the personnel on hand wouldn't have adapted much better to their versions than they did to RichRod's.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Granted, I don't watch Florida every week, but I challenge this assertion - from what I've seen, they ran pretty much the same base offense with Chris Leak at QB that they have with Tim Tebow, and it's basically the same offense he ran with Alex Smith at Utah. That's Meyer's offensive system.

Sure, I'd be shocked if Meyer didn't fine tune his schemes to suit his specific personnel from year to year, but the offense isn't radically different - it's still a spread option offense. And I doubt he's going to change the offense dramatically next year.

If only we had a thread devoted to Meyer's first year, with people calling his offense gimmicky and others talking about his misuse of a traditional dropback QB (and #1 recruit) in a spread option offense. Front Office Football Central (I don't have permission, but I think that's the Hey CUM thread if Skydog hasn't deleted it.)

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

2003 - #6
2004 - #30
2005 - #27

While you make a lot of good points in your whole argument, you do conveniently stop at 2005 here, when the 2006 is arguably Charlie's best class, #5 in the nation. The majority of this class are either starting juniors or seniors (actually a few of the big guys are elsewhere, which is arguably another strike against Weis, that a lot of guys have transferred out), so let's not pretend that this years team is chopped liver or a notch below the talent Charlie has recruited since. This should have been a BCS team, easily. Offensively, should be the best team in the country. Clausen is the best QB in the country IMO (that is healthy in any case) and has the most weapons. We'll see how the rest of the season goes, 9-3 with a close loss to USC isn't bad by any stretch but 7-5 just isn't getting it done. If he wins out, I'd say he deserves to keep his job on the understanding that they can't underachieve again next year.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

If only we had a thread devoted to Meyer's first year, with people calling his offense gimmicky and others talking about his misuse of a traditional dropback QB (and #1 recruit) in a spread option offense. Front Office Football Central (I don't have permission, but I think that's the Hey CUM thread if Skydog hasn't deleted it.)

Yeah, I was 99% sure that Meyer hadn't really changed his schemes significantly based on personnel. I'm not sure why RainMaker thinks otherwise...

[Blade6119]

I didnt watch his Utah teams too heavily, but the offense hes using at Florida looks an awful lot like the one he used against us back when he was at Bowling Green. He uses QB runs a bit more, but otherwise its really the same offense.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

While you make a lot of good points in your whole argument, you do conveniently stop at 2005 here, when the 2006 is arguably Charlie's best class, #5 in the nation. The majority of this class are either starting juniors or seniors (actually a few of the big guys are elsewhere, which is arguably another strike against Weis, that a lot of guys have transferred out), so let's not pretend that this years team is chopped liver or a notch below the talent Charlie has recruited since. This should have been a BCS team, easily. Offensively, should be the best team in the country. Clausen is the best QB in the country IMO (that is healthy in any case) and has the most weapons. We'll see how the rest of the season goes, 9-3 with a close loss to USC isn't bad by any stretch but 7-5 just isn't getting it done. If he wins out, I'd say he deserves to keep his job on the understanding that they can't underachieve again next year.

I stopped at 2005 because 2006-2008 were in the quoted passage from Rainmaker, and it seemed redundant to list them again. I also said "2006 looks like a year you can say they missed badly" (on developing guys) in my reply.

Agreed on the second to last sentence - it's pretty much exactly what I had 3 pages ago. I don't know if Weis is the guy to get ND over that hump into the elite teams discussion or if the team will keep having tight games that provide chances for upsets against average teams under his watch, but I do know the team has improved significantly each of the last 2 seasons, and is more talented and the program in better shape to go forward than any time since Holtz left. And those count for something.

Also, if he wins out to 10-3 with a Gator Bowl win, I'm sadly not even sure you can say Weis underachieved. The last time ND finished with less than 3 losses was 1993.

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Yeah, I was 99% sure that Meyer hadn't really changed his schemes significantly based on personnel. I'm not sure why RainMaker thinks otherwise...

While looking for the CUM thread found a couple interesting quotes amongst my rampant fanboyism. One where scooper (another ND fan not seen much around here recently) quotes (prominent Wolverine blogger) mgoblog making the exact point I do now 2 years in advance of 2007

The real reason Willingham went down in flames will hopefully be apparent in exactly two years, when the fruits of Davie's labors and Willingham's one good class evaporate and the Irish are left with a motely crew of handicapped midgets and Norwegian whalers on the offensive and defensive lines. The writing was on the wall; each year of Willingham's continued employment would be paid back with two additional years of onfield ineptitude.

The other one speaks more directly to you once we got on the tangent of NFL coaches to college (I revised down to 90% of NFL coaches are better than 90% of college coaches.)

Originally Posted by Dawgfan

If Wanny turns things around at Pitt ... then maybe I'll be more in line with this idea that NFL guys are automatically better than 90% of college coaches out there.

Any thoughts now that Pitt is in the top 10?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

I didnt want his Utah teams too heavily, but the offense hes using at Florida looks an awful lot like the one he used against us back when he was at Bowling Green. He uses QB runs a bit more, but otherwise its really the same offense.

It's kind of silly at this point, since so many guys (both Kelly's, Malzahn, RichRod etc) are using a spread option/west coast hybrid that it's clearly no longer a gimmick offense, but just using QB stats as a proxy I'd say it's pretty damning that Meyer didn't adjust to his QB's strengths. Of course, he also won a national title year 2.

Year - Name - Pass Attempts - Passing Yds - YPA - Rushes - Yards - YPC

2001 (Josh Harris) couldn't find
2002 (Josh Harris) 353-2425-6.9 186-737-4.0
2003 (Alex Smith) 266-2247-8.4 149-452 3.0
2004 (Alex Smith) 317-2952-9.3 135-631 4.7
2005a(Chris Leak) 374-2639-7.1 105-81 0.8
2005b(Josh Portis) 11-81-7.4 29-163-5.6
2005 (Combined) 385-2720-7.1 134-224-1.7
2006a(Chris Leak) 365-2950-8.1 77-30-0.4
2006b(Tim Tebow) 33-358-10.8 89-469-5.3
2006 (Combined) 398-3308-8.3 166-499-3.0
2007 (Tim Tebow) 350-3286-9.4 210-895-4.3
2008 (Tim Tebow) 298-2746-9.2 176-798-3.8
2009 (Tim Tebow) 173-1531-8.8 155-578 3.7

I'm not sure how many guys really do adjust their scheme and run/pass preferences based on where the talent is - for example I know Malzahn was much more pass-oriented at Tulsa - but he also started his college career at Arkansas with 2 1st-round picks at RB and terrible QB's, and Auburn's QB's this year are almost as bad.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Any thoughts now that Pitt is in the top 10?

Well, I'll say this - when you look at coaches that have coached at both levels, as a group they do better at the college level, which supports the idea that coaching in the NFL is harder. I think the jump is something like +9% or so in winning percentage. So in general, I think it's probably accurate to say that NFL coaches are superior to college coaches. But I'd still dispute the 90% figure.

And while Wanny appears to have finally turned things around, let's not forget guys like Al Groh, Bill Callahan, Mike Sherman or Chan Gailey. Not necessarily bad coaches, but not obviously better than 90% of other college coaches either.

[MJ4H]

I would support that some coaches are better suited to teach one type of player than another, for sure. A good college coach is certainly not necessarily a good pro coach, but the opposite is also true.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

It's kind of silly at this point, since so many guys (both Kelly's, Malzahn, RichRod etc) are using a spread option/west coast hybrid that it's clearly no longer a gimmick offense, but just using QB stats as a proxy I'd say it's pretty damning that Meyer didn't adjust to his QB's strengths. Of course, he also won a national title year 2.

Year - Name - Pass Attempts - Passing Yds - YPA - Rushes - Yards - YPC

2001 (Josh Harris) couldn't find
2002 (Josh Harris) 353-2425-6.9 186-737-4.0
2003 (Alex Smith) 266-2247-8.4 149-452 3.0
2004 (Alex Smith) 317-2952-9.3 135-631 4.7
2005a(Chris Leak) 374-2639-7.1 105-81 0.8
2005b(Josh Portis) 11-81-7.4 29-163-5.6
2005 (Combined) 385-2720-7.1 134-224-1.7
2006a(Chris Leak) 365-2950-8.1 77-30-0.4
2006b(Tim Tebow) 33-358-10.8 89-469-5.3
2006 (Combined) 398-3308-8.3 166-499-3.0
2007 (Tim Tebow) 350-3286-9.4 210-895-4.3
2008 (Tim Tebow) 298-2746-9.2 176-798-3.8
2009 (Tim Tebow) 173-1531-8.8 155-578 3.7

I'm not sure how many guys really do adjust their scheme and run/pass preferences based on where the talent is - for example I know Malzahn was much more pass-oriented at Tulsa - but he also started his college career at Arkansas with 2 1st-round picks at RB and terrible QB's, and Auburn's QB's this year are almost as bad.

From the stats you posted, they have shifted away from the pass and to the run. Tebow is not even going to come close to the nearly 400 passes that were thrown in 2006 or 2007. If you go back to pre-Tebow days at Florida, they ran about 7-10 fewer times a game with their QB. Tebow is almost at 50/50 with his run/pass ratio. Again, I don't see how that's not changing philosophy.

If you've watched their games this year, they are a run-heavy offense in close games. They don't have the same receiving core they previously had and are adjusting to it. Next season they will not run with the QB 200 times and will probably throw 400 times.

[ISiddiqui]

The point is that with a traditional drop back passer, Meyer had Leak run 105 times in 2005 and 77 times in 2006, even though he was horrible at it (looking at YPC).

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Without even getting into whether ND (and most other big schools) have inflated recruiting rankings, the one good class had 7 players drafted and an 8th (Samardzija) who would have been. 2004 had none, 2005 had 3-4, 2006 looks like a year you can say they missed badly, but then 2007 and 2008 both look on track for 6+ draftees. The 5* recruits, where inflation doesn't really occur, over 2007-2009 are projected 1st round picks (Clausen, Floyd, Rudolph), a backup QB with more potential than Clausen (Crist) backup guard (true FR Chris Watt) and 2 of our 4 best defensive players despite being true FR/SO (Ethan Johnson, Manti Te'o). So you could ignorantly state talent isn't being developed, or recognize the huge gap between the 2003 class and the current juniors/below, and see how the next couple drafts play out.

If we ignore that ND had pretty poor classes that are now the seniors and RS seniors, and just look at all the teams consistently in the top 10/15 recruiting rankings, they're not all better teams, and if you looked at my post you'd see those teams like Michigan, FSU, Georgia, Tennessee, Auburn listed.

And teams like Navy have no draftees. No 5* recruits. You can argue that these guys are only sophomores or juniors, but teams throughout the nation win with these players. Alabama starts 9 underclassmen on offense. The guy is at a stage now where most of his team has been through his recruiting.

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

The 2007 team was horrific, and it would have been embarrassing for Navy if they didn't beat us that year. As for this year and the 21 points, do you actually watch the games or even read my posts? ND turned the ball over 3 times inside the 5, missed 2 FG's, gained 570 yards and never punted. If ND's players execute on any one of those 5 possessions is Charlie Weis suddenly a good coach? No, opposing fans would be saying he barely beat a bad Navy team at home despite Pitt having the #11/#8 classes in 2006 and 2007 and only winning 27-14 at home, and Ohio St with all their talent only winning 31-27 in Columbus. I blame him for a lot of things, but at a certain point it's on the players to execute.

You guys failed to establish the run against a team that you had such a massive size advantage over. You chose to throw near the goalline where there is much less space and where turnovers are more common. That was Weis' choice. The teams that had the most success against Navy beat them on the ground.

The defensive scheme was even more perplexing. But hey, make some excuses for your nationally renowned school with loads of future NFL talent losing to a non-Athletic scholarship tendering institution with no future NFL talent.

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I'm not saying the schedule is great, I'm saying it has been better than expected, or been given credit for. Going off Sagarin, it's ranked higher than any of the undefeated teams, and if any of those teams went undefeated against ND's schedule they'd be locks for the title game.

The schedule is weak. One ranked team so far on it which resulted in a loss. Not just the quality of teams, but the fact 8 of your 12 games are at home. You can't honestly tell me that you're happy losing 4 games with that schedule this far into Weis' tenure. How often will you be able to catch Michigan and USC in down years?

Maybe I'm crazy for thinking Notre Dame should be better. With the national prestige, TV deals and sweet BCS rules in place. The flexibility in scheduling that allows you to have 8 home games a season. But if you're happy being in that 20-50 range and fighting it out for the Gator Bowl every year, so be it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

The point is that with a traditional drop back passer, Meyer had Leak run 105 times in 2005 and 77 times in 2006, even though he was horrible at it (looking at YPC).

No, he had him run 73 times in 2005 and 54 times in 2006. Chris Leak was sacked a lot in college and sacks count as a rush and go against rushing statistics. Throw in a dozen kneel downs over the season and he didn't run the ball nearly as much as Tebow (although he did throw a lot more).

[ISiddiqui]

Regardless, isn't 73 runs and 54 runs a LOT of rushes for a traditional drop back passer (and how many of those sacks are runs where Leak was pulled down in the backfield?)?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Regardless, isn't 73 runs and 54 runs a LOT of rushes for a traditional drop back passer (and how many of those sacks are runs where Leak was pulled down in the backfield?)?

Not in a spread style offense. The point being that those are a lot more runs than the 200 a season Tebow is putting up as starting QB. They are also throwing the ball a lot less now that they don't have good receivers.

Florida's offense this season is much different than in previous years.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Not in a spread style offense. The point being that those are a lot more runs than the 200 a season Tebow is putting up as starting QB. They are also throwing the ball a lot less now that they don't have good receivers.

Florida's offense this season is much different than in previous years.

What you're missing in your "analysis" is that much of the time when the QB runs in Meyer's system it's not a called QB draw - it's an option play. Leak opted to pitch or hand-off a lot more than Tebow does, because Leak wasn't real comfortable running the ball. That's a big part of the difference you're seeing in the rushing attempt numbers.

As for Florida's offense being "much" different than in previous years:

Rushing plays per game/Rushing carries as a percentage of overall offensive plays:
2009: 43.7/65.5%
2008: 38.9/62.4%
2007: 37.5/57.4%
2006: 34.0/54.4%
2005: 37.9/54.2%

The trend really started last year. And of course, with a guy like Tebow at QB you're going to emphasize the run more than normal. But Urban Meyer traditionally runs the ball a lot out of his spread option offense anyway.

Of course there are tweaks to a certain extent based on your personnel. But the formations and the plays that form the basis of Meyer's offense hasn't really changed throughout his career. The base offense is pretty much the same, but what Meyer has chosen to emphasize within that system has shifted a bit based on his personnel. That's what most coaches do.

It's not like he was running a pro-style offense with Leak...

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

The base offense is pretty much the same, but what Meyer has chosen to emphasize within that system has shifted a bit based on his personnel. That's what most coaches do.

Bingo. And $10 says that RichRod's offense with Tate Forcier has less QB runs than it did with Pat White... simply because Rodriguez had Pat White.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by cartman

Various strength of schedules vary greatly. Here's a few examples:

Solecismic:
Cincinnatti 44
Texas 58

GBE
Texas 35
Cincinnati 82


CBS Sports
Texas 40
Cincinnati 48

Sagarin
Texas 52
Cincinnati 67

Team Rankings.com
Texas 31
Cincinnati 44

Those do not support a "vastly superior" claim.

Mine aren't posted because SoS isn't included in my formula, but this post made me wonder what it was...

So FWIW:

Texas 44
Cincinnati 72

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Well, I'll say this - when you look at coaches that have coached at both levels, as a group they do better at the college level, which supports the idea that coaching in the NFL is harder. I think the jump is something like +9% or so in winning percentage. So in general, I think it's probably accurate to say that NFL coaches are superior to college coaches. But I'd still dispute the 90% figure.

And while Wanny appears to have finally turned things around, let's not forget guys like Al Groh, Bill Callahan, Mike Sherman or Chan Gailey. Not necessarily bad coaches, but not obviously better than 90% of other college coaches either.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with this now, I just thought it was funny that Wannstedt was the example the week his team makes it into the top 10 (and to be fair, I don't think is really as good as it's ranking.)

Originally Posted by RainMaker

And teams like Navy have no draftees. No 5* recruits.

Yet Navy's won 8 games and been to a bowl 7 straight seasons. Plus they lost @Ohio St. by 4 when OSU ran back the potential tying 2-pt conversion, @Pitt by 13, and beat Wake Forest already this year (making it 2 in a row over the Deacons as well - why no fire Jim Grobe bandwagon?).

You can argue that these guys are only sophomores or juniors, but teams throughout the nation win with these players. Alabama starts 9 underclassmen on offense.

And does Alabama win with offense? No, they do it with a defense that starts 7 seniors (and 2 juniors) while we start 1. I would take our offense in a heartbeat over theirs, even with my unabashed love for Mark Ingram and Trent Richardson. Plus Nick Saban's one of the few coaches who is clearly better than Weis - and he's not coming here.

You guys failed to establish the run against a team that you had such a massive size advantage over. You chose to throw near the goalline where there is much less space and where turnovers are more common. That was Weis' choice. The teams that had the most success against Navy beat them on the ground.

A) We haven't established the run against anyone this year, and we always throw down at the goal line. Because that's where our offensive strength's are, especially because
B) We were missing out starting RB, and lost our TE during the game.
C) Finally, we put up 512 yards of offense! 136 more than any other Navy opponent.

We lost because of turnovers and missed FG's. Credit Navy for making those plays, but don't try telling me the offensive scheme was any part of Clausen fumbling at the 1, a misread leading to a pass off Floyd's back at the 1, or a missed 30-yd FG.

The schedule is weak. One ranked team so far on it which resulted in a loss. Not just the quality of teams, but the fact 8 of your 12 games are at home. You can't honestly tell me that you're happy losing 4 games with that schedule this far into Weis' tenure. How often will you be able to catch Michigan and USC in down years?

Why does it matter if Michigan and USC if we lost to both teams this year? Should I be happier with losses to them if they were in the top 10? (Wait, you say USC is?)

Maybe I'm crazy for thinking Notre Dame should be better. With the national prestige, TV deals and sweet BCS rules in place. The flexibility in scheduling that allows you to have 8 home games a season. But if you're happy being in that 20-50 range and fighting it out for the Gator Bowl every year, so be it.

I don't understand where you get the impression I'm happy with losing any game ever. I want to be winning 11+ games and in a BCS bowl every year (even if, as you just said, that's unreasonable for Michigan, which is for the intents of this practically the same program as us) but the question is how best to get there. For all of Weis' faults, he overachieved his first 2 years with a small core of talented upperclassmen and took us to 2 of our 3 BCS bowls, and as even his detractors like you love pointing out he's recruited more talent here than at any point since the early 1990's. All while graduating players at as high a rate as any and avoiding any off-field scandal or NCAA investigation.

Now, we could change coaches again, introducing another talent gap in 4 years with the weak recruiting class, and probably ensure Clausen and Tate leave for the pros, particularly if we went after an Urban Meyer, Paul Johnson, or Ken Niumatalolo like some are suggesting, or we can bring Weis back. With that in mind, I think the performance the last 3 games of the regular season will go a long way to deciding his fate.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Not in a spread style offense. The point being that those are a lot more runs than the 200 a season Tebow is putting up as starting QB. They are also throwing the ball a lot less now that they don't have good receivers.

Florida's offense this season is much different than in previous years.

Well, the original point related to how Meyer would translate to the Michigan job, and I think it's safe to say he would have misused Mallett even if he had stayed (or Brady Quinn if he went to ND in 2005). And I say that knowing Meyer is many people's choice as the best college coach right now (we'll see if the shine lasts 2-3 years with the resurgent SEC and no Tebow), who would be phenomenal at any program by year 3. But, put simply, the biggest difference between his early success at Florida and Rodriguez's lack thereof at Michigan was the level of defensive talent left by the previous coach, not offensive adjustments.

[Chief Rum]

Navy only doesn't have draftees because Congress did away with that.

[molson]

If anybody wants a piece of the Boise St. Athletic program, now's your chance:

http://www.ktvb.com/home/BSU-to-sell...-69782417.html

BOISE - Boise State University announced today it will form a new corporation and sell shares to the public.

For $100 per share, anyone can buy stock in the new corporation, and will have the ability to vote on a board of directors that will oversee and make decisions related to the school's athletics programs - including football and other programs. The initial share offering will be $20 million.

Money raised will go to facilities, not staff or coaches.

Boise State Broncos, Inc. will be modeled on a similar idea put forth by the Green Bay Packers of the NFL.

John Miller has been named CEO of the new corporation. The stock is already for sale at the Bronco Athletic Association office. The new company will be a non-profit orginization.

BSU Director of Athletics Gene Bleymaier said the money raised will help finish up funds for new basketball locker rooms, moving the track to East Junior High School and expanding Bronco Stadium.

Bleymaier says the stock doesn't earn a dividend and it doesn't provide seating privileges, but it's for pride.

The board of directors will report to BSU President Bob Kustra and Bleymaier. They will provide direction and have influence of the direction for facilities.
Bleymaier says Boise State needs to have more revenue and support to compete at the level they are now.

[BishopMVP]

So it's basically a $100 donation to the athletic department? Only this one differs because... the thank you note they give you calls it a share?

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

So it's basically a $100 donation to the athletic department? Only this one differs because... the thank you note they give you calls it a share?

Yeah, I'm a little confused. When they call it "stock", is it something that you can actually trade and sell? If there's no dividend and the only benefit is voting on a board of directors, I have a hard time seeing there being a whole lot of value placed in these shares, so it sure does sound like essentially a donation.

[RainMaker]

Just a gimmick. An intereting idea would be if they gave shareholders a percent of bowl earnings. Would build up a huge base of fans across the country who would be really pissed off when they don't make the BCS.

[tarcone]

Iowa QB Ricky Stanzi has surgery on ankle. Listed as Doubtful.

Uh-oh.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Yeah, I'm a little confused. When they call it "stock", is it something that you can actually trade and sell? If there's no dividend and the only benefit is voting on a board of directors, I have a hard time seeing there being a whole lot of value placed in these shares, so it sure does sound like essentially a donation.

I guess it's in the "voting on a board of directors", but you pretty much already get that by being an alum or donating at most universities. I guess this allows non-graduates from the area around Idaho and some of the weirdest bandwagon fans ever to get involved.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Just a gimmick. An interesting idea would be if they gave shareholders a percent of bowl earnings. Would build up a huge base of fans across the country who would be really pissed off when they don't make the BCS.

I'm pretty sure there's a (couple dozen) NCAA violations in that plan. Might also violate the Congressional antitrust law the NCAA operates under. (Not that it's really much different than the current system morally, but legally it's a real grey line they walk.)

[flounder]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Out of curiosity, is there any mention of the success that CPJ is having in Atlanta (with a non-traditional offense) among the rumblings about RR?
I know: different conferences, different situations, different expectations, etc, but I'm curious as to whether there's any "well that guy is doing it" talk.

Someone else is apparently thinking along the same lines.

After the Michigan football team dropped its sixth straight Big Ten game Saturday, 45-24, to Wisconsin, outgoing athletic director Bill Martin made another public declaration of support for coach Rich Rodriguez.
...

“I was just reading last night in Sports Illustrated the article about (Paul) Johnson at Georgia Tech and what happened down there when he first came,” Martin said. “Now he’s having a wonderful year. He’s 9-1, but talked about how their quarterbacks left, the receivers left, all the skill players left that program. He’s turned it around in two years. I expect you’ll see that same situation.”

Martin grew angry when a reporter reminded him that Johnson is in his second season as Georgia Tech coach. The Yellow Jackets are 10-1 this year. In Johnson's first season at Tech, he went 9-4 and played in the Chick-fil-A Bowl.

“I know it is,” Martin said. “I can count, too. So what’s your point?”

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by flounder

Someone else is apparently thinking along the same lines.

Teams with less talent and coming back from harder situations have had vastly better turnarounds. Even the biggest RR fan has to admit he's not exactly entering the conversation of elite college coaches anytime soon. I really don't get what was so horrible about Michigan that a possible 8 wins in 2 years is even remotely excusable. All the more so when RR himself says not getting to a bowl game is extremely embarrassing.

[Butter]

Michigan fans are just frustrated because it looks like both Brian Kelly and Jim Harbaugh are going to not be options after this offseason, while it looks like UM is going to be keeping RR around for at least another year.

Maybe West Virginia's wild success can finally be partially contributed to that horribly weak league they played in for years.

[TCY Junkie]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Maybe West Virginia's wild success can finally be partially contributed to that horribly weak league they played in for years.

I thought it was pure ass luck they got both Pat White and Steve Slaton. Not great coaching or being a great recruiter or even the schedule. An injury got Pat White significant time and Slaton didn't play until a couple games into the season against VT. A game they lost but I was impressed with what I saw that day and wonder why they didn't play him before. That's when I started doubting the coach and wasn't sad to see him go at all years later, on the other hand I miss Pat and Steve. Mainly Pat, since the big drop in QB play.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Michigan fans are just frustrated because it looks like both Brian Kelly and Jim Harbaugh are going to not be options after this offseason, while it looks like UM is going to be keeping RR around for at least another year.

Maybe West Virginia's wild success can finally be partially contributed to that horribly weak league they played in for years.

Check the BCS, OOC, and bowl records of the Big East, particularly if you are a Big 10 fan, before calling it a horribly weak league. You could also check the computer rankings of leagues (again, particulary if you are a B10 fan, it might be enlightening for you). Or, be a sheep and thump the Big 10's chest despite the facts.

I think West Virginia's wild success can be largely attributed to Pat White, who pulled a lot of wins out of his ass for Rich Rod. Both WVU and Rodriguez look a lot worse without him.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Check the BCS, OOC, and bowl records of the Big East, particularly if you are a Big 10 fan, before calling it a horribly weak league. You could also check the computer rankings of leagues (again, particulary if you are a B10 fan, it might be enlightening for you). Or, be a sheep and thump the Big 10's chest despite the facts.

I think West Virginia's wild success can be largely attributed to Pat White, who pulled a lot of wins out of his ass for Rich Rod. Both WVU and Rodriguez look a lot worse without him.

Hopefully this Devin Gardner guy will be Pat White 2.0.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Check the BCS, OOC, and bowl records of the Big East, particularly if you are a Big 10 fan, before calling it a horribly weak league. You could also check the computer rankings of leagues (again, particulary if you are a B10 fan, it might be enlightening for you). Or, be a sheep and thump the Big 10's chest despite the facts.

Okay I'll give you the BCS wins but you can't really compare other bowl games when the Big East is matched up against Conference USA, ACC, & MAC teams for the better part of their bowl games. Where as the Big Ten plays SEC and Big 12 teams.

[Swaggs]

To add, here are the Sagarin ratings for the past five seasons:

2009:

    CONFERENCE          CENTRAL MEAN    SIMPLE AVERAGE  TEAMS

   1  PAC-10              (A) =  79.75      78.73  (  2)     10
   2  SOUTHEASTERN        (A) =  78.99      79.39  (  1)     12
   3  ATLANTIC COAST      (A) =  77.23      76.90  (  3)     12
   4  BIG EAST            (A) =  76.98      76.76  (  4)      8
   5  BIG 12              (A) =  74.03      74.75  (  5)     12
   6  BIG TEN             (A) =  72.94      73.38  (  6)     11
   7  I-A INDEPENDENTS    (A) =  71.77      69.97  (  7)      3
   8  MOUNTAIN WEST       (A) =  69.28      69.95  (  8)      9
   9  WESTERN ATHLETIC    (A) =  66.32      66.91  (  9)      9
  10  CONFERENCE USA      (A) =  65.00      64.54  ( 10)     12
  11  MID-AMERICAN        (A) =  61.48      61.33  ( 11)     13

2008:

     CONFERENCE          CENTRAL MEAN    SIMPLE AVERAGE  TEAMS

   1  SOUTHEASTERN        (A) =  78.31      79.08  (  1)     12
   2  BIG 12              (A) =  77.86      77.80  (  2)     12
   3  ATLANTIC COAST      (A) =  77.70      77.67  (  3)     12
   4  PAC-10              (A) =  76.14      75.39  (  4)     10
   5  BIG EAST            (A) =  75.23      74.11  (  5)      8
   6  BIG TEN             (A) =  73.21      73.49  (  6)     11
   7  MOUNTAIN WEST       (A) =  70.90      71.72  (  7)      9
   8  CONFERENCE USA      (A) =  65.88      65.75  (  8)     12
   9  I-A INDEPENDENTS    (A) =  64.26      63.74  ( 10)      4
  10  WESTERN ATHLETIC    (A) =  63.91      64.18  (  9)      9
  11  MID-AMERICAN        (A) =  61.96      61.67  ( 11)     13

2007:

     CONFERENCE          CENTRAL MEAN    SIMPLE AVERAGE  TEAMS

   1  SOUTHEASTERN        (A) =  81.99      81.83  (  1)     12
   2  PAC-10              (A) =  79.47      79.63  (  2)     10
   3  BIG 12              (A) =  78.62      78.35  (  3)     12
   4  BIG EAST            (A) =  77.46      77.12  (  4)      8
   5  ATLANTIC COAST      (A) =  75.21      74.98  (  5)     12
   6  BIG TEN             (A) =  74.63      74.17  (  6)     11
   7  MOUNTAIN WEST       (A) =  70.95      70.84  (  7)      9
   8  I-A INDEPENDENTS    (A) =  61.74      61.79  (  8)      4
   9  WESTERN ATHLETIC    (A) =  61.29      61.72  (  9)      9
  10  SOUTHERN            (AA)=  60.50      59.92  ( 11)      8
  11  CONFERENCE USA      (A) =  59.54      60.06  ( 10)     12

2006:

      CONFERENCE          CENTRAL MEAN    SIMPLE AVERAGE  TEAMS

   1  SOUTHEASTERN        (A) =  81.60      81.23  (  1)     12
   2  BIG EAST            (A) =  79.57      79.90  (  2)      8
   3  PAC-10              (A) =  78.78      79.15  (  3)     10
   4  ATLANTIC COAST      (A) =  75.49      73.79  (  6)     12
   5  BIG TEN             (A) =  74.89      75.62  (  4)     11
   6  BIG 12              (A) =  74.34      74.01  (  5)     12
   7  MOUNTAIN WEST       (A) =  68.34      69.30  (  7)      9
   8  I-A INDEPENDENTS    (A) =  65.97      65.74  (  8)      4
   9  WESTERN ATHLETIC    (A) =  63.88      64.92  (  9)      9
  10  CONFERENCE USA      (A) =  63.58      64.00  ( 10)     12

2005:

    CONFERENCE          CENTRAL MEAN    SIMPLE AVERAGE  TEAMS

   1  BIG TEN             (A) =  80.72      80.55  (  1)     11
   2  ATLANTIC COAST      (A) =  78.96      78.26  (  4)     12
   3  BIG 12              (A) =  78.96      80.02  (  2)     12
   4  PAC-10              (A) =  77.92      78.65  (  3)     10
   5  SOUTHEASTERN        (A) =  75.28      74.92  (  6)     12
   6  I-A INDEPENDENTS    (A) =  74.44      75.02  (  5)      3
   7  BIG EAST            (A) =  72.12      72.42  (  7)      8
   8  MOUNTAIN WEST       (A) =  69.51      69.58  (  8)      9
   9  CONFERENCE USA      (A) =  65.02      64.69  (  9)     12
  10  MID-AMERICAN        (A) =  63.20      62.28  ( 10)     13