Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[Comey]

Just got to see the promo...this is rare for WWE, at any time. How long until they screw it up?

[JonInMiddleGA]

After seeing this hyped both here & on FB, I had to go searching. Didn't take long to find it.

Biggest shock to me was that Vince let him mention ROH by name. THAT shocked me, I felt like the rest of it has been done in some form or fashion before. Not that it takes anything away from how well Punk did it, I had kind of forgotten how well his facial expressions sell his promos but this was a great reminder.

Also lost, both because of the promo & because it really a minor detail that very few people would notice at all, was how exquisite the timing of the match finish was. A half second early by Truth, it'd come off sloppy. A half second late exit by Punk, he's in the way & it'd come off sloppy. Instead, at least at full speed on my first viewing, it looked real ... or at least as real as a highly booked finish was going to look. That was three professionals hitting their marks, which is how it's supposed to be done.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

He would never allow that belt to be a part of one of those promotions.

Eh, probably not but you never know. If you watch this worked shoot and the Joey Styles one, you can see that McMahon doesn't have a problem with people destroying his product on RAW on the odd special occasion. The Styles one was actually even "edgier" in a way - getting into the whole "wrestler v. superstar" thing and the de-emphasis on calling wrestling moves. The WWE title means more to the company and to McMahon then it does to someone like Vince Russo, sure, but it's still ultimately just a prop.

Another thing that promo made me appreciate is how the WWE has manged to, over the the years, evolve their audience into something less cynical, less self-aware, less smarky. Even though he got some cheers, Punk is actually the heel here....if he gave this promo even in 2004 or so he would be 100% face. I know a lot of people don't like that direction the WWE has gone in, but personally, I think the sincere crowd gives you more possibilities and will sustain you better in the long run.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Biggest shock to me was that Vince let him mention ROH by name. THAT shocked me, I felt like the rest of it has been done in some form or fashion before.

FWIW, the one time I saw this happen before was during Matt Hardy's first WWE hiatus. He was backstage or in a parking lot or something and "crashed" the show - and actually hyped his ROH match that was coming up that weekend before the camera "cut away". There was a lot of buzz about some WWE/ROH agreement, but no, it was just a worked shoot that was well done. Hardy actually wrestled that ROH match, while under WWE contract, and then was back in the WWE a week or so later (this was during the Edge/Lita stuff).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

FWIW, the one time I saw this happen before was during Matt Hardy's first WWE hiatus. He was backstage or in a parking lot or something and "crashed" the show - and actually hyped his ROH match that was coming up that weekend before the camera "cut away". There was a lot of buzz about some WWE/ROH agreement, but no, it was just a worked shoot that was well done. Hardy actually wrestled that ROH match, while under WWE contract, and then was back in the WWE a week or so later (this was during the Edge/Lita stuff).

i vaguely remember now that that you bring it up. IIRC, the ROH crowd absolutely hated on Hardy.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Meanwhile, speaking of titles, is this perhaps a way to get down to one main title for a while (as has been discussed at least by the IWC a few times)?

[Matthean]

Video From CM Punk’s Shoot Promo From RAW

While it's up.

[Terps]

Punk will beat Cena (perhaps with Vince's help), then the Money In The Bank winner (Del Rio?) cashes in and beats Punk.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Terps

Punk will beat Cena (perhaps with Vince's help), then the Money In The Bank winner (Del Rio?) cashes in and beats Punk.

Yeah....no.

It was a great promo and this has all the feel to it of the start to a great angle. But the cynic in me remembers how the Nexus invasion felt the same way and was killed dead into the ground and now a year later none of those guys mean shit. The cynic in me knows that this is most likely just the start for another big summer feud to culminate in what is a hoped decent buyrate for Summerslam. The cynic in me reads next week spoilers and

Spoiler

can just hear the tone of John Cenas voice as he says CM Punk should have the right to speak his mind and suddenly 50% of the heat generated last night by Punk for this angle dies right away by Howdy Doody and his goofy awww shucks promo cutting.

The mark in me though, he wants to believe we're in for some great TV.

[Suicane75]

Hmm, just read the complete spoilers. Guess I shouldn't have been so dismissive of your post Terps. Still, I can't imagine the angle culminating at the PPV. The angle just doesn't make any sense to me if they beat Punk there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And speaking of Colt Cabana .... from the website Creative Has Nothing For You : A Weekly Web Series, starring Colt Cabana and Marty DeRosa

[RainMaker]

Spoiler

They already killed the intrigue into the angle in the 2nd taping. God forbid they go an episode without Cena being the good guy who takes the right position.

[PilotMan]

just watching some of this old Rock-HHH-Austin-McMahon stuff, and it's just so classic, so incredibly classic. The Rock-Mankind series with HHH on the heels is still so good.

[Suicane75]

Got every bit as deflated to the angle as I thought I'd get when I saw Cenas two promos last night. His willingness to recite the awful promos they write for him makes me want to give him a good foot stomp to the nards.

I'm still excited to see what happens Sunday but I get the feeling that Punks promo will end up being the pinnacle of this angle.

[Mota]

Yeah, every once in a while the WWE comes out with a magic moment, but they don't know how to follow up on it. If you thought of the worst possible ending of the Nexus angle (after Cena joined the Nexus), that's pretty much the one they went with.

It should be an interesting title match. Cena is going to get booed out of the building in Chicago. How will the announcers describe it?

[Toddzilla]

Not only that...

* Given Punk's phenomenal promo,
* His subsequent "suspension",
* Cena getting "fired" if he loses,
* The WWE releasing a statement to the press that Punk is leaving the company on July 17th and it is definitely not part of a storyline,

...is there any question that Punk is going to win at the PPV?

I can see the MITB winner "saving the day" by cashing in immediately after Punk wins to keep him from "taking the title away", which would be a cop-out for sure, but they may as well just dissolve the company if Cena wins.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

I can see the MITB winner "saving the day" by cashing in immediately after Punk wins to keep him from "taking the title away", which would be a cop-out for sure, but they may as well just dissolve the company if Cena wins.

Seems the most likely scenario.

Either that, or McMahon reveals he's working with Punk, it was all a setup to get Cena to agree to the firing stipulation, does a "you fans are so stupid" promo and sucks all remaining life out of the angle.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Not only that...

* Given Punk's phenomenal promo,
* His subsequent "suspension",
* Cena getting "fired" if he loses,
* The WWE releasing a statement to the press that Punk is leaving the company on July 17th and it is definitely not part of a storyline,

...is there any question that Punk is going to win at the PPV?

I can see the MITB winner "saving the day" by cashing in immediately after Punk wins to keep him from "taking the title away", which would be a cop-out for sure, but they may as well just dissolve the company if Cena wins.

agreed with the above.

they would have cut to commercial if it wasn't part of a storyline and he certainly wouldn't be wrestling for the title if it wasn't...

[RainMaker]

I'll eat my words if I'm wrong, but I think Cena wins by "overcoming huge odds" and Punk leaves the company. Then we carry on with the same shit they've been doing for years.

[Mota]

For someone who seems on the edge of getting the next title shot, is Alberto Del Rio the most boring wrestler ever? "It's my destiny!" and "My name is Alberto Del Rrrrrrio!!!" That's pretty much his entire game.

I'm a big fan of the possible CM Punk winning the title and the money in the bank winner cashing it in to prevent the title from disappearing. But I think they're trying to keep Cena strong to prepare him for The Rock, and I don't see any front runners that could win the title immediately. If they give it to Del Rio he'll get cheered and that's exactly the opposite of what he needs. Cena could be "Super Cena", keep the title and then have to defend against Alberto which could be cool, but then you're going into the story too quickly IMO.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

For someone who seems on the edge of getting the next title shot, is Alberto Del Rio the most boring wrestler ever? "It's my destiny!" and "My name is Alberto Del Rrrrrrio!!!" That's pretty much his entire game.

That sounded like Santino ... minus the mic ability or the charisma

[Matthean]

Video From New Zealand: Punk Receives Everybody’s Finishers

Overkill n WWE? No way....

[Mota]

Originally Posted by Matthean

Video From New Zealand: Punk Receives Everybody’s Finishers

Overkill n WWE? No way....

Sounds like the re-pushing of Wade Barrett where Cena not only pinned him but had to drop about 4,000 chairs on him to completely "bury" him. He still hasn't recovered, and he used to be one of the more promising guys on the roster.

[RainMaker]

I think the reason I liked Del Rio is because of Ricardo.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think the reason I liked Del Rio is because of Ricardo.

Ricardo IS pretty awesome though.

If every new wrestler had as much support as Del Rio, ie. huge prop budget, permanent worker assigned to help you get over, etc. There would be a lot more new stars in the WWE.

That's one of the things that bothers me the most about the WWE. McMahon has it in his head who he wants to push, and that's it. A new guy can be getting over like Kaval but if it's not in the plan, it's bury city. Imagined if he listened to the crowd, I think it would be a much better product. Then again, the crowd doesn't always make the best decisions. Maybe a combo of both would be best.

[DeToxRox]

Punk was just fucking brilliant again tonight. That Yankees comparison was just fucking perfect.

[RainMaker]

He is incredible, will put a nail in the coffin for me if he leaves. Tonight's promo was brilliant, the Yankees comparision perfect, this is one of the best buildups I can ever remember for a PPV. Will suck if we go back to Cena squashing R-Truth or whatever other jobber is on the roster after this.

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

He is incredible, will put a nail in the coffin for me if he leaves. Tonight's promo was brilliant, the Yankees comparision perfect, this is one of the best buildups I can ever remember for a PPV. Will suck if we go back to Cena squashing R-Truth or whatever other jobber is on the roster after this.

yep

notice how Cena ruined that promo. dear god that guy sucks

[DeToxRox]

Cena seemed rattled tonight. He even resorted to finding his Boston accent to try and get the crowd back but he didn't have an answer tonight. When Cena hit Punk the crowd was dead.

[molson]

It's surreal to see the indy superhero, ring of honor champion, etc, transform into the star of the CM Punk show on RAW the last few weeks (and the multiple world title runs before that as both a face and a heel). Nobody would have believed it back in 2007 because Vince "doesn't push guys he didn't create", and "only pushes hosses". And now, despite all that success - unless the guy actually wins the world title, literally leaves the company, and defends the belt in New Japan and ROH, that super-cynical smark fanbase will still crap over the booking after Money in the Bank - the same people that though Punk would be nothing but a jobber in the WWE. Of course, I'm somebody that enjoyed the Nexus angle, but didn't necessarily want to see it go longer than 6-8 months and didn't necessarily want to see Wade Barrett as the top heel in the company forever (at least not until he's been there for a few years and showed some staying power after the initial hot push debut - as Sheamus has now done.).

[molson]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Cena seemed rattled tonight. He even resorted to finding his Boston accent to try and get the crowd back but he didn't have an answer tonight. When Cena hit Punk the crowd was dead.

I actually like Cena best when he loses the crowd. I don't think he was actually rattled - it's not like he hasn't been booed out of buildings in Boston and NYC and Philly before (as a face). Some of his best stuff was that 2007 run when the fans turned on him against RVD and Edge. He was booked as a face, but was actually a heel, and the WWE didn't hide the fact that he was so polarizing. It was fun stuff. As long as its not silence, it's all good.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

It's surreal to see the indy superhero, ring of honor champion, etc, transform into the star of the CM Punk show on RAW the last few weeks ...

The man has a point here.

but didn't necessarily want to see it go longer than 6-8 months and didn't necessarily want to see Wade Barrett as the top heel in the company forever (at least not until he's been there for a few years

+1 ... and my interest in Seamus is still extremely limited despite that "staying power" you mentioned. As in "I wish to hell he'd stay off my TV" ... which come to think of it, he does a fine job of

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

It's surreal to see the indy superhero, ring of honor champion, etc, transform into the star of the CM Punk show on RAW the last few weeks (and the multiple world title runs before that as both a face and a heel). Nobody would have believed it back in 2007 because Vince "doesn't push guys he didn't create", and "only pushes hosses". And now, despite all that success - unless the guy actually wins the world title, literally leaves the company, and defends the belt in New Japan and ROH, that super-cynical smark fanbase will still crap over the booking after Money in the Bank - the same people that though Punk would be nothing but a jobber in the WWE. Of course, I'm somebody that enjoyed the Nexus angle, but didn't necessarily want to see it go longer than 6-8 months and didn't necessarily want to see Wade Barrett as the top heel in the company forever (at least not until he's been there for a few years and showed some staying power after the initial hot push debut - as Sheamus has now done.).

You're not the audience Punk plays to. You're the audience Cena plays to. He enters into a feud, pretends there is some odds to overcome, and he of course overcomes them and wins while embarassing the heel. It's not a bad storyline, it's just the same one we've seen for the last 5 years. So John Cena squashing 8 or so guys appeals to you more than others. I didn't expect it to last long, just thought they should be more than jobbers.

Cena can be good when he loses the crowd, but tonight was not it. He almost ruined an incredible segment between Punk and Vince (who are both really good handling crowds). Cena is better when he's talking against people who are weaker on the mic. Telling a poop joke can get him over then. But he embarrased himself tonight trying to match-up to Punk on the mic (and even Vince to an extent).

Also, Punk created this buzz on his own with an incredible promo. Without that, he likely leaves WWE quietly buried under a bunch of ladders or something.

[molson]

To me its also interesting and surreal that you have a heel, in his last day with the company (I guess), put in a situation where he's guaranteed to have the crowd behind him against the face of your company. When have we ever seen anything like that? As bad as Cena got it in Boston, he's going to get murdered in Chicago. And I guess, that may point to Punk staying, though I'd bet he's just going on a Jericho-like hiatus and will be back before long. But who knows. (I WOULD think this had double-turn written all over it if I haven't seen the WWE again and again be willing to throw Cena into fires like this.)

People talk about Cena like he's had an undefeated 5 year run as champion, but when you look back, that's not reality. Sure, he's been the face of the company whether champion or not, and he can be bland and formulaic, but he's been vulnerable enough to at least temporarily elevate guys like Miz, Sheamus, Barrett, even Edge (who was really just a highspot tag team guy until his feud with Cena where he won the title for the first time)...what happens to those guys after Cena elevates them isn't Cena's fault - it's up to them, the bookers, and inevitable roster crunches where everybody can't be the top guy all the time. But the best moments of all of those guys' careers have all been with Cena, and they all occasionally got the better of Cena in ways that midcard heels NEVER got the better of any other main event face in WWE history. The guy is far from perfect, I just think he's underrated on the internet. And the years prior to the Shemaus/Barrett/Miz elevating, Cena dealt primarily with established guys - Angle, Booker T, HBK, Jericho etc. I don't remember Cena burying any of those guys, I remember good matches and good (if not always super-interesting) storylines, with the younger Cena usually winning the feud in the end. And before that phase, you had blue chipper Cena challenging, and losing feuds to, the established stars like Lesnar and the Undertaker. Seems like the correct career storyline arc. Down the road he'll have to have the downswing and start losing most of those feuds, but we're way too early for that right now.

And I think too you always have to remember - if you've watched the WWF any time since the 60s and go in hoping the face loses - you're going to be disappointed pretty much anytime outside of HHH's reign of terror in 2001-2003.

[molson]

Dola - I've also read that Colt Cobana will be in Chicago for MITB...that's not necessarily unusual, as I guess he goes to a lot of WWE Chicago PPVs as a fan, but after two namedrops on RAW, it wouldn't be shocking if he played a small role Sunday (even if just as failed interference or something).

[RainMaker]

It's not Cena's job to elevate guys, it's the writers and bookers. I don't put any blame on him. He does his job well and is by all accounts a really good guy to be the face of the company. His character is just incredibly boring right now and the historically low buyrates seem to back that up. If anything, I feel bad for him that he doesn't get to be multi-dimensional.

As for the guys you mentioned being elevated, many never stood a chance. While Sheamus was booked strong initially, he eventually became a chickenshit heel champ that went on a streak of jobbing to just about everyone on the roster. Miz also was booked incredibly weak and always needing help even when it came to beating a 60-year old announcer. And Barrett jobbed practically every big match he had, even when the odds were in his favor.

The problem isn't with heels not winning, it's with no credible heels in the entire company. It's basically what Punk said in the promo tonight, Cena is the Yankees. He's the favorite everytime out. There is no one who can legitimately challenge him unless they have a ton of outside help. That's boring. That's tough to care about.

You need heels to be strong. You need to feel like they are a challenge for the face. For all the crap HHH got earlier in the decade, it helped usher in a bunch of new stars because their wins against him mattered. Cena beating Miz doesn't. I'm not saying you need a guy to hold a title for years, I'm saying you need to allow guys like Miz, Barrett, and whoever else you want to push to beat other guys on the roster cleanly. You need to have a midcard that actually matters. So that guys can slowly build their way up the ranks like Edge, Michaels, Orton, and even Cena. Edge became a star because the tag team belts mattered. People cared who held them. Now they are jobbers to Cena. Seriously, the tag team champions just lost to a single man tonight in a match that wasn't really in doubt.

[RainMaker]

I'd also add that the Vince-Punk dynamic is much more interesting than Cena-Punk. I'd love to see Punk stay and have a feud of sorts with Vince. I thought their segment was brilliant and they play off each other well. Both going right up to the line of being a worked shoot. Love the "Phil" part from Vince. And Punk joking with Cena earlier about how the firing provision is a load of shit.

It has potential to be an Austin-Vince style feud renewed. I guess what I like about the feud is it isn't black and white. There isn't a face and a heel. It's shades of grey. Sort of what made The Rock, Austin, and DX so intriguing. It makes for great crowds, unpredictability, and an overall better product. Sunday's PPV has incredible buzz. You have Punk who is sort of an anti-hero now fighting in his hometown which should be a real hostile crowd toward Cena. Something we rarely see. You can't tell me that's not more fun than watching Cena beating some midcarder again.

I'll be buying the PPV too and I haven't been buying them in some time.

[Noop]

Punk was amazing last night. He is SCSA good right now and his promos had to sting Vince a little bit. I wonder if Triple H is silently behind Punk pushing him to go further with this angle.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The problem isn't with heels not winning, it's with no credible heels in the entire company. It's basically what Punk said in the promo tonight, Cena is the Yankees. He's the favorite everytime out. There is no one who can legitimately challenge him unless they have a ton of outside help. That's boring. That's tough to care about.

I honestly never really understood this complaint either. Yes, Cena, like every other main event face in WWF history, isn't threatened to lose clean. But his challengers are almost always a threat to walk away with the title. I mean, he's lost the world title 9 times to all kinds of different guys. It happens. This isn't like Hogan defending the title against Adrian Adonis or Cowboy Bob Orton. When Cena is champion, and he has a title defense, there's always a good chance he's losing the belt. He's done it many times, and most of his reigns haven't been very long at all. Yes, you know if he loses he's still going to be the face of the company, and that he'll get the title back sooner or later, but I think that's a different complaint - that Cena isn't the guy you should build your company around. The guy is so far from invincible in a W/L sense its ridiculous for a top face.

I guess I don't care as much HOW anyone wins because wrestling is such a silly spectacle anyway, and in the 20+ years I've been watching heels always cheat and that's just the way it's been. If the outcome is in doubt, then the outcome is in doubt. If I want super-competitive realism, there's MMA, and I guess ROH and other indy promotions. I mean, what's a big-time wrestling match without chairs or tables or managers interfering or blind refs or outside interference or controversy? I guess what's left after that is ROH, or a matchup for the Western States Heritage title in 1987. It's certainly not WWE, WWF, WCW, or ECW.

The buyrate for MITB will be interesting. This is one of the most anticipated internet message board PPVs, including Manias, that I can remember. But i'm not sure how many PPVs that internet message board fanbase actually buys, as opposed to the regular fans who have just been throwing money at them without restraint the last few years based on simple, traditional, non self-aware wrestling storylines. If this does get a really huge number though, it could change their booking direction a little to bring in more of the older fans. If it's more ho-hum, they might not try this experiment again for a while.

Edit: I'm not even defending the booking here, just this idea that Cena "never loses". Every time he wins on TV, you here the sarcasm, "oh wow, Cena won, shocking." His W/L record on TV/PPV so far this year (according to a guy who keeps track of this on the wrestlecrap forum) is 15-12-1. I'm sure there were silly pro-wrestling shenanigans in all of those losses. But clearly the guy loses all the time.

[jbergey22]

Correct Molson on the heels not beating the "over" faces cleanly as long as I can remember.

Im thinking what Rainmaker might be talking about is that these heels pick up dirty wins even against subpar competition. The best Cena match I can remember was when he faced Umaga after Umaga went on this crazy winning steak of squash matches. It appeared that Umaga was a legit threat and the match was great.

It really does nothing for Miz's momentum when he has to cheat to beat a 60 year old announcer. Can we possibly think he is a credible champ or challenge to anyone really?

In the good old days they would make these heels look like beasts before they fed them to Hogan. King Kong Bundy for example would look just unstoppable before Hogan took him down.

Along the way I think the WWE decided they could just throw crap at a fan and expect people to eventually buy into it but its really messed up how they book. They give someone a megapush then they drop down to lower mid status while they try another megapush and it just ends up screwing over the entire roster.

They need to realize how bad they kill momentum on some of these guys and be quicker to freshen up the character or change the gimmick. They did a nice job with R-Truth now why dont they realize that works still?

[molson]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Im thinking what Rainmaker might be talking about is that these heels pick up dirty wins even against subpar competition. The best Cena match I can remember was when he faced Umaga after Umaga went on this crazy winning steak of squash matches. It appeared that Umaga was a legit threat and the match was great.

Ya, that's probably what i'm missing here, because that's not the way I view wrestling. I didn't care how many guys umaga squashed, it never made me think he was going to beat Cena clean, or really at all. Maybe that's becae I grew up on hogan in the 80's and saw that formula a million times.

Edit: I see sheamus or r-truth as a much bigger actual threat to win then umaga was. Umaga was just a classic feeding, I never felt like he was going to actually win the title. And no smart fan actually thought andre was going to beat hogan.

[RainMaker]

jbergey summed it up better than I could. Hogan had guys like Andre, Yokozuna, etc who were credible threats. I remember Warrior going up against Undertaker who looked unbeatable at a time. There was credible competition in the main event scene. There isn't right now. The company is Cena and Orton with a bunch of jobbers. That has just gotten old and the evidence is in the buyrates. The only change we see is Cena getting a new t-shirt color every year.

I'd like to see them stick with building up a guy. Umaga is a good example of a guy they built up and had a nice payoff at a PPV. They started well with Sheamus but he's now a mid-carder who doesn't even appear at PPVs anymore. There is just no consistency in pushing guys. They do so for 6 months and then bury them hard. It's as if the minute these guys get close to the level of Cena and Orton they not only have to lose, but they have to lose for months to lesser wrestlers to prove some retarded point.

I'd add that I don't think they need to go back to the Hogan era of building feuds. It's a different generation. I just think they need more uncertainty, more originality, stronger pushes for guys. Maybe this is all a result of the mid-card and second tier belts being a complete and utter joke now. In the past a guy like Dolph Ziggler would be gaining some credibility by holding a belt, but now it's just a stupid prop.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by molson

Ya, that's probably what i'm missing here, because that's not the way I view wrestling. I didn't care how many guys umaga squashed, it never made me think he was going to beat Cena clean, or really at all. Maybe that's becae I grew up on hogan in the 80's and saw that formula a million times.

Haha,

Well you have to use your imagination to think he has a chance to lose I know what you are saying though. Logically you knew he wasnt going to lose to someone like Umaga however it was still booked much better than most of his stuff in which it seemed possible.

I think the WWE could be in a bit of trouble in the near future. They are losing all of these stars and really havent built any solid new stars as of yet. I guess I havent been watching much lately but Cena is an international star and Undertaker is. Has everyone else that is in that category retired or left?

[molson]

I did love that Cena/umaga match where Cena choked him out at the end, even though the outcome wasn't really in doubt.

I think i've been conditioned over the years to believe that if a guy looks strong going into a ppv, he's losing at the ppv.

[RainMaker]

They already are in trouble. The buyrates for their last couple PPVs are approaching TNA numbers. Were the worst for the company in over a decade.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

They already are in trouble. The buyrates for their last couple PPVs are approaching TNA numbers. Were the worst for the company in over a decade.

It makes sense. Their product gets stale in a hurry.

I hadnt really watched wrestling since the late 80s. I started watching again in 06 and liked it for around a year until it got old again. I pay attention to it now to see whats going on but I basically just DVR it watch the opening and ending and FF through everything else.

The recycled feuds and same storylines dont make it something that is watchable for more than a few months without a nice long break IMO

I think its kind of strange that they think the can get great buyrates on a Main Event that has been done a RAW 20+ times(possibly an exaggeration but you get the point). Its a messed up product thats for sure. They assume people dont have a capable memory. I can think of atleast 3 Punk vs Cena matches without trying hard.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

They already are in trouble. The buyrates for their last couple PPVs are approaching TNA numbers. Were the worst for the company in over a decade.

I posted the numbers a while ago, but this has been the strongest 5 or so years ever for the company. They've diluted the ppv product, and jacked up the prices a ton, but I bet the overall ppv revenue is comparable, and in the meantime they've transformed into a true worldwide brand. I think the simpler, more family-friendly product is a part of that expansion, and us liking or disliking the booking of a ppv has so little to do with the bottom line. They'd rather get a billion more eyeballs or so in india.

[RainMaker]

Their earnings are down 65% from last year. Things are not going well for the company.

[Mota]

I'd agree that Edge and Cena were elevated in their feud.

But I would have to disagree that Cena has played a role in elevating Barrett, Sheamus and The Miz.
Wade Barrett - Cena never showed any weakness, taking beatings from 8 guys week after week. Sure he joined Nexus for a few weeks but it was a joke, it deflated the Nexus angle quicker than possibly expected. Then he dropped 4,000 chairs on Barrett and he was never heard from again.
Sheamus - Sheamus beat him for the title, but it was staged as a tables match and Cena "accidentally" fell onto the table to lose the title. No heat was transferred.
The Miz - Poor Miz had to practically beg for Cena and The Rock to even mention him during their promos even though Miz was the champ. He'd give Cena 13 minute beatdowns, and the next week Cena would be back joking around, no-selling the injuries and not even expressing any anger over the situation. Cena did not say one time that he wanted the title (because he wasn't going to win). And the only way Miz won is because Rock gave Cena his finisher. It wasn't because Miz was cheating, wasn't because he was evil or tricky, just because he was there. So it didn't elevate him either.

But elevating guys is just not Cena's style. His promos are jokey and he doesn't sell very well. He's just not built for elevating others, I don't blame him for that. He's no Ric Flair that's for sure. Look at Hogan, as terrible as he was in the 80's, he let you believe that the next big midcard heel was the toughest thing ever, he'd have tape wrapped around his chest for weeks after taking a Splash from a loser like Earthquake. He really made you feel that maybe this was the week that someone would beat him, even if they never did. Super Cena just doesn't give the fans that feeling, that's why they feel he's so overpushed. You never feel like he's in any real danger.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mota

Look at Hogan, as terrible as he was in the 80's, he let you believe that the next big midcard heel was the toughest thing ever, he'd have tape wrapped around his chest for weeks after taking a Splash from a loser like Earthquake. He really made you feel that maybe this was the week that someone would beat him, even if they never did. Super Cena just doesn't give the fans that feeling, that's why they feel he's so overpushed. You never feel like he's in any real danger.

Oh ya, I was on the edge of my seat for all those Hogan title defenses against heel midcarders. Even as a mark kid I knew Sika wasn't winning the world title.