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View Poll Results: How is Obama doing? (poll started 6/6) | |||
Great - above my expectations | 18 | 6.87% | |
Good - met most of my expectations | 66 | 25.19% | |
Average - so so, disappointed a little | 64 | 24.43% | |
Bad - sold us out | 101 | 38.55% | |
Trout - don't know yet | 13 | 4.96% | |
Voters: 262. You may not vote on this poll |
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08-17-2009, 09:23 AM | #3701 | |
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Knowing that if I lose my job and my child gets sick that I would lose my home and face bankruptcy is just motivation for me to work harder. Enjoy your third-world healthcare you Aussie bitches.
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08-17-2009, 09:25 AM | #3702 |
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/sarcasm, I hope
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08-17-2009, 09:31 AM | #3703 | |
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Would losing your job immediately put you into the "poor" category where you you can get the government option for free under Obama's original plan? (Not sure where we are at this point with the news of the last few days). I think you'd still be shelling out for insurance out-of-pocket if you lost your job (and possibly before, if your job dropped healthcare as a benefit. Obama recently admitted that when he said, "if you like your current plan you can keep it", isn't literal, as in, the government won't make you switch, but he can't do anything to keep private companies from dropping insurance and making people pay for the "public option", which remember, is promised to be self sufficient, funded by premiums from the middle class that will pay for it.) There's no "free health care for everyone" on the table. Even our administration apparently realizes that's not possible yet. The comparisons with Austrialia/U.K. aren't relevant because of that difference, but especially when we even now spend 2.5 times more on health care per capita than those countries do. No one's sure what that disparity would be if we just went to their identical system, but I think it's safe to say it would be many, many, many times more. Would Australia/UK still love their health care if they had to pay triple their taxes for the same or less quality of care? Things are more expensive in America, for the federal government, than other countries. I'm not sure exactly why, but it definitely goes beyond health care. There's a decent chance the "public option" would have been somewhat cheaper, and it might help to bring the cost of private insurance down (that 1-2 combo is probably the most beneficial part of the plan), Democrats are being just as dishonest as Republicans if they push this as some kind of Europe-like universal plan, because it's not. Last edited by molson : 08-17-2009 at 10:01 AM. |
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08-17-2009, 09:31 AM | #3704 | |
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And I used to believe that Americans had the irony bone removed at birth (possibly too expensive? ) Last edited by Mac Howard : 08-17-2009 at 09:34 AM. |
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08-17-2009, 10:01 AM | #3705 |
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I think I finally got my answer as to why the Democrats just don't go ahead and pass this bill through if they believe it to be best for the country. It appears at this point that even the Democrats can't decide on what they want at this point. They are their own worst enemy right now.
White House's Mixed Messages On "Public Option" Howard Dean On Public Option: "You Can't Really Do Health Reform Without It" |
08-17-2009, 10:03 AM | #3706 | |
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I'd hope that through compromise there would certainly be some facet of AFFORDABLE health care coverage for those who lose their employer subsidized insurance. I'd point back to my "millions of people' post as a burden we should not have to carry on our shoulders from birth to grave.
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08-17-2009, 10:05 AM | #3707 | |
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Good for Dean. I guess it's easy to talk when you're on the outside, but I have the sense that he's a little more genuine than Obama when it comes to the Democratic ideals. He wasn't as smooth on the mic though, so he didn't work out. |
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08-17-2009, 10:05 AM | #3708 | |
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It's taken you this long to realize that Democrats don't all have the same set of priorities?
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08-17-2009, 10:07 AM | #3709 |
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Dean also put forth what is my biggest fear reinforced by Dick Armey's line today in regards to the possibility that GOP doesn't want compromise, period. That sucks for America.
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08-17-2009, 10:09 AM | #3710 | |
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The Dems being obsessed with having a unified front is exactly what this country doesn't need. I love that there's more than 2 strict ideas floating around now (or really, 1 strict idea and one party just attacking it). |
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08-17-2009, 10:10 AM | #3711 |
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I think there are multiple bills being talked about {shrug}
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08-17-2009, 10:11 AM | #3712 | |
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Is today Obvious Day or something? Of course the bulk of GOP elected officials don't want a compromise. In a two party system the opposition benefits most greatly when the majority is ineffective. Sometimes that's overcome by a strong desire for reform(see NCLB), but as long as the media doesn't start blaming the minority for inaction there's very little reason for them to sacrifice such an obvious political win. edit: That came out bitchier than I intended, but it's frustrating that there's even discussion as to whether the GOP is negotiating in good faith. Grassley has stated repeatedly that he doesn't want anything to pass.
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08-17-2009, 10:11 AM | #3713 |
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except for the welfare of the country and constituents which in most cases comes from compromise from all involved.
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08-17-2009, 10:15 AM | #3714 | |
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In this instance, this isn't one of those cases so we're probably good to go (I'm actually not kidding but the smiley should clarify that this particular comment is just a throwaway line for a possible giggle, not some jumping off point for debate) In a related aside, it's actually kind of comforting to know that I don't have to worry much about my Rep. (Broun) getting into compromise mode. Saves me some worry as well as saves me from feeling compelled to spend much time reminding him that's not what he was elected to do.
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08-17-2009, 10:19 AM | #3715 |
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LOL
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08-17-2009, 10:25 AM | #3716 | ||||||||||
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To be honest, I'm not sure anymore. It seems to morph day by day. I've always been a proponent of the single-payer plan, because I've lived several years in a country that had one and I just think it's overwhelmingly the better way to provide health care to a nation. Better and, generally, more cost-effective. I think the key, root problem in the U.S. system is the risk to ordinary people of extraordinary consequences. Pre-existing conditions meaning you can't get insured for something and you go bankrupt. Coverage loopholes meaning the insurance company ends up not paying for something and you go bankrupt. Very high deductibles for certain "unlikely" things that then show up and you go bankrupt. Whole groups of people who don't qualify for Medicaid but can't afford good insurance and run a daily risk of incurring a bill that causes them to go bankrupt. Etc.... I'm not really sure health insurance should be private, honestly. Unlike, say, auto or home insurance, where we pay against the potentially-zero possibility of an expensive event, I think what most people think they want out of health insurance is a vehicle that both spreads your outlay of money out to a predictable level (i.e. you pay a couple hundred a month so that, among other things, you don't have a bill for $20,000 when your baby is born) and also acts as a buffer against catastrophic events. Quote:
These are fine but I'm sure most small business owners would prefer an option where they don't have to pay for health care at all. Imagine all the good workers small businesses lose out on because they can't provide good health care now? Quote:
I like this too. But if you're going to start off in this direction, why not go single-payer, as that's essentially what you're describing? Quote:
Oh heck yes. Agreed 100%. Quote:
As I've stated before, this simply isn't true. Quote:
I can best speak for the pharma industry, where I have some experience. A lot of the more cutting-edge drugs (i.e. new approaches to medical problems, not incremental improvements of current treatments) are primarily produced in Europe because of the superior support EU member states provide for various types of R&D plus, critically, extensive clinical trials. For instance, much of the H1N1 vaccine development is being conducted in Europe at the moment for these very reasons. Also note that the big pharma companies you know (Pfizer, GSK, Bayer, etc...) typically don't develop a lot of "breakthrough" drugs these days, in-house. They'll do increments of their blockbusters, but rely on acquisitions of small startups who happen upon pot-of-gold breakthrough drugs. This process operates a lot like the dot-coms did. Some guys will spend their own money (or some grant money as well) to try and find a cure for, say, the common cold. Now 90% of the time they're going to fail, but a group that comes up with a good treatment will then get bought by a big pharma after a bidding war and they'll all be able to retire. From what I've seen, these small startups crop up all over the place, primarily in North American and Europe, but also in Aus/NZ, India, Japan, and some in South America. And of course they're bought by big pharmas who exist anywhere (but typically in the U.S. and Europe). If Big Pharma, for whatever reason, suddenly has less money for Acquisitions (a budget expenditure typically far more reliably affected by profit margins than general R&D) then the result is likely to be that the purchase price in these bidding wars will be lower. But I very much doubt it will be low enough to keep these small startups from still trying to strike it rich, especially when in many cases part of their research will still be funded by government grants (moreso in Europe). Quote:
You seem to be painting a picture that suddenly all the world's major paying markets for drugs will start buying drugs for cost only. That doesn't happen now, and it seems unlikely, to be honest. Quote:
That's not my experience, to be honest. Acquisition dollars go down before R&D ones do, but both after the organization finds savings elsewhere (administration, marketing, IT, salaries, etc...). Quote:
The NHS is a terrible example, to be honest. The Thatcher/Major governments spent almost 20 years finding ways to subtly dismantle the NHS and the ensuring Labour government never took the time to do a root-and-branch reform of the system to recover from that, so it's limped on in a sort of half-assed nature since then. Having said that, the quality of care I received from the NHS when I lived there in the mid/late-90s was just as good as the very good PPO plan I have in the U.S. now, which about a billion times less paperwork. Quote:
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08-17-2009, 10:33 AM | #3717 |
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Interesting comment in this article. James Carville actually suggested that the Dems let the Republicans kill health care to save face and perhaps gain a minor political advantage since it doesn't appear that the Democrats will be able to construct a bill that they all agree on.
Health concession fuels blowback - Mike Allen - POLITICO.com |
08-17-2009, 10:51 AM | #3718 |
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I'd pay good money to see Cynthia McKinney and Tom DeLay dancing together.
Okay, maybe I wouldn't pay... but I'd probably watch it on YouTube.
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08-17-2009, 10:57 AM | #3719 | |
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'since it doesnt appear that both sides will be able to construct a bill together that will help achieve the reform a vast majority of Americans want'
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08-17-2009, 10:57 AM | #3720 | |
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08-17-2009, 11:02 AM | #3721 | |
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It's just that you've railed against public options. You've stated how horrible other countries have it. The wait times, the costs, etc. Then you say you want 50% of our country to be under it. If the private way is so much better, shouldn't we want everyone to enjoy the vast benefits you have touted? |
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08-17-2009, 11:06 AM | #3722 | |
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I'd agree. They've gone too far down this path to back down now and blame the Republicans. The Democrats have to continue to fight this out within their own ranks to make it work. |
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08-17-2009, 11:12 AM | #3723 |
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right the GOP have had nothing to do with where we are today.
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08-17-2009, 11:16 AM | #3724 |
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08-17-2009, 11:18 AM | #3725 |
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The major difference between the parties is the Republicans fall in line much easier. Bush wanted something and it got done. Didn't matter if it was a moderate or conservative Republican. They cut deals, made concessions with one another, but ultimately got shit done.
They also weren't so fucking disorganized. I can't remember them ever putting out a bill that hadn't been vetted by members of Congress beforehand and they knew what the reaction would be from their own party. Seems amateurish to put out a bill and then have your own party shit all over it. Why wasn't a lot of this stuff discussed in private beforehand? Reminds me of the first TARP that got rejected in the House. Can't fathom that happening under a Republican controlled House. Sadly, the Democrats need someone with more power at the top of the Senate and House. A guy like Tom Delay who would just get shit through one way or another. Not sure who in the party has that kind of weight though. A Jim Webb would be good at it for the Senate while someone like Dave Obey would be a great leader in the House. |
08-17-2009, 11:23 AM | #3726 | |
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08-17-2009, 11:23 AM | #3727 |
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The Democratic party havnt failed me or you, NOTHING has been put to a vote yet! Jesus, this isnt about winning and losing.
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08-17-2009, 12:34 PM | #3728 | |
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WTF?! There was little to no attempts to filibuster the stimulus bill. McConnell spoke aloud about it, but there was no way in Hell he was going to get 41 votes to stall the bill.
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08-17-2009, 12:41 PM | #3729 | |
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Well, imagine if Tip O'Neill was Speaker. He wouldn't stand for this crap. Actually, imagine if Rahm was Speaker, as was his original ambition. LOL |
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08-17-2009, 12:46 PM | #3730 |
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08-17-2009, 01:43 PM | #3731 | ||
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I'm not a fan of medicare, but I think that we should have some option for uninsured kids and seniors. Kids because it's hard for a 5-year old to fill out paperwork for insurance or find a job. Seniors because of the pre-existing conditions that will often disqualify them from current private plans (I would prefer a reform on private plans for seniors to medicare, but as I said above that ship has sailed). Outside of Medicare (which is its own beast right now), we're talking about maybe 5-10% of the population who fall into uninsured kids or people in poverty without insurance. 80-90+% of kids have insurance from their parents and won't even need to partake in it. Plus, we already have a ton of state systems that help cover uninsured kids right now. Setting up a federal plan to cover kids who aren't insured (very few), stipends/credits to those who can't afford coverage (poverty, small business owners, don't get it from their employer) and an extension of unemployment coverage for those who lost their jobs will be minimal cost when compared to whatever the bill of the day is in congress. The beauty of this is that only a comparative small number will be taking advantage of this plan as you either need to be an uninsured kid, in poverty, recently laid off or small business owner/hourly worker/other to qualify. Yet, it would put a dent in the number of uninsured people and give us a starting point if increasing coverage is a concern (as has been stated numerous times in this thread). After this effort, the focus can shift to improving the infrastructure and working on cost issues (which there also many simple things that can be done from opening state-to-state competition to dealing with the medical malpractice elephant to other ideas). This won't involve massive waits or a change to the system as 80+% will still be under their same employer provided plans. It will just give options to many people who don't have any now (and some of whom will still probably not take advantage of for various reasons). There's no real government health care plan (outside of maybe the uninsured kid piece), the majority is tax credits/stipends for people to use to buy their own. The problem we have now is waiting to fix everything with a magic wand instead of taking a more measured approach and dealing with each area as its own bill/problem. Quote:
Last edited by Arles : 08-17-2009 at 01:55 PM. |
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08-17-2009, 01:51 PM | #3732 | |
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There's also a lot of pressure on the clear majority (esp in a recession). It hosed the republicans in the early 90s and seems to be hammering the democrats now. Just like the republicans in 1991, the democrats can *do* whatever they want - they (esp Obama) are just smart enough to know that things aren't going to change much before the next election cycle and they will need some coverage to keep the majority. Politics isn't (and hasn't been for years) about "doing the right thing", it's about doing something that helps you keep your job. |
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08-17-2009, 01:58 PM | #3733 | |
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08-17-2009, 02:04 PM | #3734 | |
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I'd bet that seniors and kids equate well over half the health care spending in this country. The rest of your ideas that you presented was pretty close to what Obama presented. Why are you opposed to it again? |
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08-17-2009, 02:07 PM | #3735 |
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Well, the Bush medicare bill was also a "reform", just a poorly constructed one. The problem with health care is that the democrats themselves are split when it comes to a public option. If you can't get a clear purpose on a bill within your own party, it's going to be hard to sell it to the public/other side of congress.
If Obama would have just come out in June and said "We need a bill that includes specific items X, Y and Z (ie, public option)", I think the democrats would have fallen in line. He didn't want to do that, though, because he knew the public wasn't a big fan of the public option and he didn't want to be tied to specific items in the bill (in the event they needed to be cut to land his "victory" on health care). So, while that may have been more politically expedient for Obama long term, it pretty much sunk the health care debate. These poor democratic congressmen were forced to defend every aspect of all 20 bills in congress in these town halls because they didn't know what Obama wanted in the final version (or what would be there). Bush, for all his warts, was very specific on what he wanted (for better or worse) and that's why it was easier for republicans to fall in line. It's hard to back the president when you don't even know specifically what he wants. |
08-17-2009, 02:08 PM | #3736 | |
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The cloture vote was 60-36 with Collins, Snowe and Specter voting for, Franken unseated and a couple non-voters. The only reason McConnell couldn't get 40 votes was because of the compromise bill negotiated by the moderates.
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08-17-2009, 02:12 PM | #3737 |
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Collins, Snowe, and Specter would have ALWAYS voted against cloture. Collins and Snowe are not the type to filibuster anything, even if they disagree.
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08-17-2009, 02:13 PM | #3738 | ||
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Quote:
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08-17-2009, 02:13 PM | #3739 | |
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Obama would have been better off crafting a bill he liked and discussing it in private with the leaders in the Democratic party. Moderates and liberals alike. Get a consensus and a bill that the party would support. Then come out with a united front and 60% of Congress behind it. When you come out and put up a strong offensive, you have a better shot at winning. Bush did that with whatever he wanted passed. |
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08-17-2009, 02:19 PM | #3740 | |
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Private option may work for the average 18-60 year old, but over 60 it's just too much trouble. You need the rest of society pitching in to help them out. You can't honestly believe there is a way to create a private system for the elderly. |
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08-17-2009, 02:22 PM | #3741 |
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You also have this belief that everyone on insurance is somehow taken care of. Insurance is great if you don't really get sick much, but if you're unhealthy, it's a different ball game. Ask anyone who's had extended hospital stays how hard it was to get their bills paid for. Or those who needed treatments prescribed by doctors that insurance companies just didn't want to pay for. The minute you start costing the insurance company a lot of money, they turn into shitbags that are nearly impossible to work with.
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08-17-2009, 02:23 PM | #3742 | |
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Maybe so, but the cuts in the final bill were made to appease them so they would vote for cloture. The cuts didn't materialize out of thin air.
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08-17-2009, 02:25 PM | #3743 | |
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That plan didn't work so well when Clinton tried it.
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08-17-2009, 02:26 PM | #3744 | |
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08-17-2009, 02:27 PM | #3745 | |
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The Medicare Advantage plan does essentially what you are proposing, but costs significantly more per person than Medicare.
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08-17-2009, 02:30 PM | #3746 |
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They didn't have near the margins in the house and senate they have now. Plus, their plan was extremely unpopular. I think if Obama had come out with a specific bill he wanted in the summer, there's a strong chance it would have passed by now.
But, I think that experience Clinton had scared Obama and he was hoping he could just grease a final bill through (just on sheer numbers in congress) without ever having to stick his neck out on certain specifics. In a broader context, I see this as a problem that will continue to pop up. You can't work multiple sides of an issue and then act surprised when a specific side is chosen for a bill and there's disagreement. Either Obama needs to set a specific agenda for what he wants congress to pass or this will keep happening again and again. |
08-17-2009, 02:36 PM | #3747 | |
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Private only works in true free markets. Health care is not and the insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies like it that way. What you want is a private plan in an industry that is built so these companies can't lose. |
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08-17-2009, 02:37 PM | #3748 | |
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I agree that the Clinton experience has played a big part in how this was (mis)handled, but I still think it's important to point out that a public option would likely pass an up or down vote. The problem is Max Baucus and a handful of Senators that apparently won't vote for cloture.
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08-17-2009, 02:38 PM | #3749 | |
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The cuts were to get them to vote for the final bill to call it "bipartisan", NOT to get them to vote for cloture. If the later was what was intended, then I have a far lesser view of the Obama Administration's political acumen than I previous had.
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08-17-2009, 02:43 PM | #3750 | |
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For example, the Berensen and Dowd survey found that 99% of private plans used some type of disease management program in 2000, whereas CMS is considering terminating an ongoing disease management demonstration in traditional Medicare because it has been so unsuccessful. So, long term, it could end up costing less and atleast there's a reason for these plans to control cost (ie, they are for profit). |
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