*World Cup Game Discussion Thread* (SPOILERS)

[MrBug708]

Is Arena taking over the Youth teams a good idea? Or a bad one?

[Critch]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

It's part of the Keane myth that it was the same injury. Haaland retired because of a completely different injury.

Yeah, he played 48 minutes in 4 substitute appearances a year later before calling it a day. He never fully returned from Keane's tackle. Breaking down while trying to comeback from Keane's tackle isn't really a completely different injury.

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

So, when Haaland went down Keane asked him how it felt

Didnt he supposedly say "Take that, you c*nt"?

[Critch]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Is Arena taking over the Youth teams a good idea? Or a bad one?

Is that what's happening? He was super successful with University of Virginia, so I guess he gets a 20 for working with young players, so it should be a good role for him.

I'm kind of disappointed, I was hoping he'd end up in club soccer in Europe being a Martin Jol type, getting the best out of a young team.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Is Arena taking over the Youth teams a good idea? Or a bad one?

Is this just speculation? I haven't heard it announced anywhere.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

It's part of the Keane myth that it was the same injury. Haaland retired because of a completely different injury.



What he did was to repeat what Haaland had done to him when he suffered a cruciate ligament injury the season before. Keane went down in agony, cruciate ligament gone, and Haaland screamed at him to get off the floor and stop feigning injury. Keane didn't play for almost another season. One thing Keane would never do was feign injury - kick three shades of s...t out of his opponent, yes, but never feign injury

So, when Haaland went down Keane asked him how it felt



He didn't boast, he told the truth - which was a problem with Keane throughout his career including his last time at OT when he accused the current Utd squad of lack of commitment on MUTV and Ferguson let him go.

Keane actually injured himself trying to kick Haaland, maybe not injure him, but certainly Keane was trying to bring him down. Haaland jawed at him in the style of 'Ha, you tried to get me, but you've hut yourself'

The next time, Keane definitely meant it and got it right

[cthomer5000]

http://zidanedeathstar.ytmnd.com/

[Critch]

edit - Oops, not sure how I lost the headline and the link. This is from the BBC:

Zinedine Zidane has apologised for the headbutt on Italy's Marco Materazzi which earned him a red card in Sunday's World Cup final penalty shoot-out loss.

But the France legend did not reveal what Materazzi said, only confirming that it was "very personal and concerned his mother and his sister".

In a French TV interview, Zidane, 34, said: "I want to ask for forgiveness from all the children who watched that.

"There was no excuse for it. I want to be open and honest about it."

[ISiddiqui]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot...06/5169342.stm

One BIG thing to notice. He apologized (but not to Materazzi), but did not say he regretted it:

The France legend did not reveal what Materazzi said, but claimed it was "very personal" and concerned his mother and his sister.

Zidane refused to say sorry to Materazzi and said he did not regret what he did after being provoked by the insults.


But Zidane, who was playing in his final game before quitting football, added: "They were very hard words. You hear them once and you try to move away.


"But then you hear them twice, and then a third time.


"Before anything else I am a man and some words are harder to hear than actions. I would rather have taken a blow to the face than hear that

"I want to apologise," he said. "But I can't regret it because if do that would be like admitting that he had every reason to say what he said. I can't do that because he was not right to say what he said."

I wonder if we'll ever find out exactly what was said. It seems it was so hurtful to Zidane that even three days after the fact, he refuses to say it. I doubt he'll ever feel ready to say what exactly he was told. And Materazzi ain't spilling the beans either.

[ISiddiqui]

Some GOOD news for a change . US ratings of the final were very, very good.

http://sports.yahoo.com/sow/news?slu...=afp&type=lgns

11.9 million on ABC/ABCHD and 5 millon on Univision (16.9 mil total). That's better than the combined average 2006 NBA Finals viewership. And comparable to the combined average 2005 World Series viewership (17.1 mil) and 2006 NCAA Basketball Championship (17.5 mil).

[Logan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I wonder if we'll ever find out exactly what was said. It seems it was so hurtful to Zidane that even three days after the fact, he refuses to say it. I doubt he'll ever feel ready to say what exactly he was told.

You have to be the most overdramatic person in the history of this board.

The reason he didn't say what was said is because if he did, everyone would realize that his attack was completely unnecessary because he overreacted to "I f*cked your mother and sister."

Zidane is getting killed everywhere. If something legitimate was said that would make people sympathize with him, he would come out with it.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Logan

You have to be the most overdramatic person in the history of this board.

The reason he didn't say what was said is because if he did, everyone would realize that his attack was completely unnecessary because he overreacted to "I f*cked your mother and sister."

Zidane is getting killed everywhere. If something legitimate was said that would make people sympathize with him, he would come out with it.

You are REALLY not in tune with the world football community are you? Zidane is NOT getting killed everywhere. To plenty he is being honored for taking out Materazzi. And is recieving a more favorable view than most players who get kicked out for similar stuff.

Also Le Monde has said that off the record the BBC asked Zidane if Materazzi said that Zidane's mother was a terrorist whore and Zidane said yes.

But if you want to continue to believe that Zidane was possessed by the Devil and isn't talking because Materazzi (Mr. I don't know what a terrorist is) didn't say anything bad then go ahead. But Zidane is getting a more favorable view in Britain and Germany (of course France as well)

[cthomer5000]

I think Logan is closer to the truth on this. I think there's one reason Zidane hasn't said what Materazzi said... because we'd all realize it was an overreaction on his part.

[ISiddiqui]

This is what a good deal of Europe believes (even though it was placed in the Toronto Star) about the incident (though they do also think what was said was horrid and is important):

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...=1044529386490

Zizou: Still a superstar
At least it was a manly act, not a sneak attack
Jul. 12, 2006. 06:49 AM
CATHAL KELLY

Now that the pop psychologists, kinesiologists and Italian lip readers have had three frenzied days to assess Zinedine Zidane's battering of Marco Materazzi, let's consider the incident calmly.

It wasn't "shameful" or "an ugly end to a great career" or "a shadow over the game" — all descriptions used recently. It was understandable, excusable and, in a bizarre way, admirable.

We know the Italian started it. Materazzi has admitted to goading Zidane. And Materazzi is a man who knows how to get under someone's skin.

Much has been made of Zidane's famous temper — the Saudi he stomped on in the 1998 World Cup, the 14 red cards over a 17-year career. But whereas Zidane is a superstar with a mean streak, Materazzi is a journeyman known for little else. The Italian's two-footed horror tackles are legendary. He was once suspended for two months for cold-cocking a former teammate in a post-match tunnel brawl. He has been derided by his countrymen as an "animal" and booed the length of Italy. So what we really had here was the artist and the enforcer trading barbs after a tangle well off the ball.

We may never know exactly what was said. Does it matter? How much would it matter to you if some chirpy goon who'd been tailing you for two hours insulted your mother or your wife or your race? There's also been talk of a tug on Zidane's injured shoulder or a nipple tweak. Whatever it was, it was annoying enough in Zidane's opinion to warrant action.

Zidane could have waited for an opportunity to spike the lanky defender later in the game. He could have faked an injury the next time Materazzi brushed against him in the hopes of getting him sent off. That's what most of today's soccer stars would have done.

Instead, he squared up to him, took one purposeful step and gave him the old "Marseilles handshake." How Materazzi was caught totally off-guard is more curious than why the head-butt was delivered in the first place.

It was inelegant. It was wrong. But it was a far sight more manly than a sneak attack or a kick in the privates. For me, watching infamous divers like Francesco Totti or Thierry Henry step up to give their post-match two cents about Zidane's "madness" was more nauseating than the attack itself.

After he hit Materazzi, Zidane quietly waited to be sent off. When his (perfectly correct) punishment came, he turned and walked away without complaint. Meanwhile, Materazzi thrashed about on the ground as if he'd been beaten with a mallet, rather than knocked on the chest. I know who I thought looked more dignified.

All sports are about aggression. We prefer that aggression controlled. But it will come spilling over now and again. This does not mean that villains have taken over and there is no more good in the world. It means the players are not emotionless cyborgs. Spontaneous outbursts of violence — and we're not talking about malicious attacks meant to cause serious injury — are part of every contact sport.

Also, let's leave the "he let the team down"' angle out. Zidane speared Materazzi 110 minutes into a 120-minute contest. Ten men can defend just as easily as 11 for 10 minutes. Zidane was injured. He'd also nearly missed a penalty early in the game, so it's not clear if he felt confident enough to take one during the shootout. The game came down to steel and luck.

Italy's penalty shooters had more of both. Zidane's presence wouldn't have changed that.Zidane could have calculated all these factors in that instant between hearing the jibe and launching himself at Materazzi. After all, few players ever made decisions more quickly on the pitch. We don't know how it happened. Zidane has chosen not to explain himself yet. Frankly, he doesn't need to.

He walks into history rightly regarded as one of the sport's gentlemen. He may not have turned the other cheek, but nor did he dive or whine or fake injuries or give up or badmouth his opponents or blame others when the team did badly. He was also the game's greatest exponent of the past 20 years.Nothing that happened Sunday changed any of that.

In addition his sponsors are still on board:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...l=970081593064

Sponsors from food group Danone to German sporting goods giant adidas rushed to support the man who sparked France to victory in the 1998 World Cup.

Adidas, Zidane's long-time sponsor, even said it would launch a website — http://www.mercizidane.fr — on Saturday so supporters can thank him.

"He has been adidas's ambassador for 10 years and will stay its ambassador until 2017."In fact, Mr. Hainer (the company's chief executive) said he could stay as long as he wishes," adidas marketing head Emmanuelle Gaye said.

[rexallllsc]

I'll say this. I think it was great, but he knows he should've stayed in the game, and so does everyone else.

Ah well.

[Critch]

I was hoping his statement today would be "I'm sorry, I messed up, it's the wrong way to leave the game so I'm postponing my retirement"

If he'd topped it off with "I'll be playing for Glasgow Rangers next year for free" that would have been even nicer.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

You are REALLY not in tune with the world football community are you? Zidane is NOT getting killed everywhere. To plenty he is being honored for taking out Materazzi. And is recieving a more favorable view than most players who get kicked out for similar stuff.

Also Le Monde has said that off the record the BBC asked Zidane if Materazzi said that Zidane's mother was a terrorist whore and Zidane said yes.

But if you want to continue to believe that Zidane was possessed by the Devil and isn't talking because Materazzi (Mr. I don't know what a terrorist is) didn't say anything bad then go ahead. But Zidane is getting a more favorable view in Britain and Germany (of course France as well)

No, I'm not in touch with the world football community, because I could give a shit about the world football community. And that's why I can use my own judgement to realize what happened in this situation, as I don't have a huge fuckin problem with the Italian guy like you do. The people who are impartial to this, such as every American journalist who could care less about soccer, have a problem with what Zidane did and believe it hurts whatever legacy he was going to leave.

And frankly, I could give a shit about the idiots who will honor someone who drives their head into another's sternum with that amount of force.

"I could give a shit" factor #3: any supposed off-the-record comment made.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Critch

I was hoping his statement today would be "I'm sorry, I messed up, it's the wrong way to leave the game so I'm postponing my retirement"

If he'd topped it off with "I'll be playing for Glasgow Rangers next year for free" that would have been even nicer.

LOL! At Newcastle, we've sold Lee Bowyer, so Zidane can step right in .

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Critch

I was hoping his statement today would be "I'm sorry, I messed up, it's the wrong way to leave the game so I'm postponing my retirement"

If he'd topped it off with "I'll be playing for Glasgow Rangers next year for free" that would have been even nicer.

God, I know you want to punish him, but no man deserves that evil a fate...

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Logan

No, I'm not in touch with the world football community, because I could give a shit about the world football community.

Because "Zidane is getting killed everywhere" turned out not to be true .

The people who are impartial to this, such as every American journalist who could care less about soccer, have a problem with what Zidane did and believe it hurts whatever legacy he was going to leave.

Not all of them take Materazzi off the hook:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ane/index.html

And besides if they are 'impartial' (ie, your term for 'could care less about soccer') then in what position are they to evaluate his legacy, which they know nothing about?!

[ice4277]

I think the whole "8 minutes left in overtime of the World Cup Final" thing trumps any words that Materazzi could have said to Zidane. Shit like that gets said all the time in sports.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by ice4277

I think the whole "8 minutes left in overtime of the World Cup Final" thing trumps any words that Materazzi could have said to Zidane. Shit like that gets said all the time in sports.

Agreed. Regardless of what was said, it's obviously the wrong time to lose your cool.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Agreed. Regardless of what was said, it's obviously the wrong time to lose your cool.

That is agreed by everyone, though if he managed to score the goal on the header earlier and France preserved a win, then it becomes fun gravy (though come to think of it, I wonder how much of a part Italy won plays into it... if France won, especially through a Zidane header, does become as big? Especially since there is no one in the entire world aside from his dad that likes Materazzi?)

[Logan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Because "Zidane is getting killed everywhere" turned out not to be true .

Once again, I bring up the bias that all of these people have. Whether its the support of France, or the pure hatred of the Italian. If you ask people who don't care about ANY of this, I'm willing to gamble that a vast majority would join the "Zidane is a fuckin nut" camp.

And besides if they are 'impartial' (ie, your term for 'could care less about soccer') then in what position are they to evaluate his legacy, which they know nothing about?!

Because I could know nothing about this player, besides the (apparent) worldwide belief that he is one of the greats, and if you told me his career ended by getting kicked off for a stupid foul, with his team tied in the final minutes of the most important match in the world, I could reasonably say his legacy would be affected.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Logan

Once again, I bring up the bias that all of these people have. Whether its the support of France, or the pure hatred of the Italian. If you ask people who don't care about ANY of this, I'm willing to gamble that a vast majority would join the "Zidane is a fuckin nut" camp.

Initially, perhaps, but knowing the reputation of Materazzi and the jawing, and Zidane's running away from the play before he wheeled around, they may stop and wonder what exactly was said. At least that was what my friend did. At first he was pissed off, then saw the clip from the beginning (where they were jawing) and said that guy had to say something pretty bad. And he didn't even know Materazzi's rep!

And I don't see much bias that the English have. It's not like they like the French any.

Because I could know nothing about this player, besides the (apparent) worldwide belief that he is one of the greats, and if you told me his career ended by getting kicked off for a stupid foul, with his team tied in the final minutes of the most important match in the world, I could reasonably say his legacy would be affected.

And you'd be wrong. 20 years from now, who'll care? He was in the same league as Beckenbauer, Cruyff beforehand and he's still there. For those that said if they won he'd be in Pele's and Maradona's league, they were smoking crack. He'll still be conserded one of the greatest football players ever and one headbutt won't change that in the slightest (except perhaps in Italy, but even then, 10-20 years from now it won't matter).

[Easy Mac]

Isn't this just one of those Ron Artest things? We all realize it wasn't the right thing to do, but that in a similar situation with the right set of circumstances, we'd totally go Zidane/Artest crazy. It doesn't make his actions justifiable, regardless of what was said or who was attacked, but we understand why he did it. But the circumstances of it don't really matter when it comes to sports, and nor should they.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

The attempts to excuse Materazzi are incredible!

Not nearly as incredible as the attempts to excuse Zidane.

Another Angle:

hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zy3YbEiYMc&mode=related&search=

[BreizhManu]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And you'd be wrong. 20 years from now, who'll care? He was in the same league as Beckenbauer, Cruyff beforehand and he's still there. For those that said if they won he'd be in Pele's and Maradona's league, they were smoking crack. He'll still be conserded one of the greatest football players ever and one headbutt won't change that in the slightest (except perhaps in Italy, but even then, 10-20 years from now it won't matter).

Totally agree, in my opinion it will just add to the legend just like the "hand of god" did it to Maradona. I mean the guy already has a god-like status in France, he could kill someone people would still try to find excuses for him.

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Agreed. Regardless of what was said, it's obviously the wrong time to lose your cool.

Shrug, I don't think anyone (like ISiddiqui) is excusing Zidane or even remotely attempting to imply that his action was correct.

On the other hand, I think he is saying that it can be an understandable human action/error. It's nice and all to say that we would never, ever (and, I mean, EVER!) lose our cool in that manner in such an important moment. On the other hand, when we're in that moment, such a thing can happen. Especially given that, if I understand it correctly, his mother was just hospitalized.

I'd like to think that I have decent self control (and improving, given that I work with the public nowadays) but I can absolutely see myself going apeshit on someone in similar situation (and SackAttack will be reporting my unfortunate incarceration)

[Katon]

I think the major effect this has on Zidane's legacy is that people will remember that he did have this occasional violent side. It was already there - given the sorts of things Materazzi was saying, this isn't the worst loss of control in his career even allowing for the huge stage - but having it show up in a WC final will emphasize it a bit more. It might also bring his reputation down to a slightly more realistic level. All-time great, certainly, but he's not on the Cruyff/Beckenbauer level.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by Critch

Yeah, he played 48 minutes in 4 substitute appearances a year later before calling it a day. He never fully returned from Keane's tackle. Breaking down while trying to comeback from Keane's tackle isn't really a completely different injury.

His career ended because of a knee injury that failed to respond to surgery. Haaland himself, though initially blaming Keane, has admitted that it had nothing to do with Keane:

hxxp://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/photo_galleries/football/2190003.stm

Didnt he supposedly say "Take that, you c*nt"?

Amongst other things, I suspect

[Darkiller]

Originally Posted by Katon

All-time great, certainly, but he's not on the Cruyff/Beckenbauer level.

He is definitely at these guys level, and certainly more on the Pele/Maradonna level actually since he won a World Cup, a Euro championship and played in another World Cup final while being the tournament's MVP.

I won't go over his records and titles (way to many to list) but I think there is no question that he has to be ranked above Beckenbauer who was a defender (albeit a superb one) and not a midfielder.

Zidane is one of the 5 greatest players of All-time, some will argue he was the best ever based on his magic tricks in the middle.

Anyhow, and however you look at it, he is the game's best player of the last 20 years (say Pelé and other legends)

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Ok, whatever you say, DK. A little bit of bias in that evaluation of ZZ? I don't care what he won with other good players on his team. I watched Maradonna play, and ZZ is no Maradonna. He also isn't close to one of the 5 greatest players of all time. I might be convinced he's been the best player over the last 10 years but that's about it.

[ISiddiqui]

A bit far there... Beckenbauer was amazing and I think Zidane is on a similar level, but not "no question" he is above him. He has won a lot of titles and has indeed been a magician on the ball, but Beckenbauer did redefine a position completely.

And yes, Zidane is probably the best player over the last 15 years (after Maradona's prime). He has to be considered one of the best central midfielders in history (if not THE central midfielder) and definately in the Top 10. He probably would not be in my top 5 (that'd be Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano, Beckenbauer, and Cruyff), but he'd be on the cusp with Baresi, Best, and Platini.

[ice4277]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And yes, Zidane is probably the best player over the last 15 years (after Maradona's prime). He has to be considered one of the best central midfielders in history (if not THE central midfielder) and definately in the Top 10. He probably would not be in my top 5 (that'd be Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano, Beckenbauer, and Cruyff), but he'd be on the cusp with Baresi, Best, and Platini.

What, no Beckham?

[Neon_Chaos]

I think the American media's the only ones who are on Zidane's back. :P

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by ice4277

What, no Beckham?

Oh, he's right after Platini .

[cartman]

Here's a humorous article that was from The Register.
hxxp://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/07/13/zidane_headbutt_outrage/

Zidane headbutt outrage: new video evidence

Viral email offers fresh perspective

By Lester Haines
Published Thursday 13th July 2006 11:57 GMT
Security White Papers - Download them free from Reg Research Pity if you will poor old Zinadine Zidane: sent off during the World Cup final for a serious infraction of FIFA's "no headbutting Italians" rule and now reduced to the status of French national hero with enough cash in the bank to enjoy a lifetime of truffles, stuffed songbirds and fine vintage champagne.
Indeed, while the rest of the world was struggling to contain its outrage at Zidane's unsportsmanlike use of the Glasgow handshake, Jacques Chirac counterattacked with: "I would like to express all the respect that I have for a man who represents at the same time all the most beautiful values of sport, the greatest human qualities one can imagine, and who has honoured French sport and, simply, France."
Well, therein lies the rub, mon ami. How you view the whole thing depends largely on your national perspective, as nicely demonstrated by a viral email we received this morning:
As seen by the Germans:


As seen by the French:


As seen by the Italians:


As seen by the Americans:


As seen by the press:


Terrific. For the record, we at Vulture Central believe that - contrary to current wisdom - the Materazzi-felling incident was provoked not by references to Zidane's mother and his Algerian ancestry, but rather the suggestion that Italian wine may be of equal, or superior, quality to its French equivalent.
In the circumstances, Zidane's reaction as the embodiment of France was understandable. Let's face it, the Bastille was stormed for less. ®
Bootnote

We gather that's there's a lot more of this Zidane silliness down at somethingawful. Thanks to Mark Butler for the heads-up.

[ISiddiqui]

LOL! That was quite brilliant actually.

[DanGarion]

The way to solve problems.
The Zidane way!
hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js0vOgjBfD8

[Darkiller]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Ok, whatever you say, DK. A little bit of bias in that evaluation of ZZ? I don't care what he won with other good players on his team. I watched Maradonna play, and ZZ is no Maradonna. He also isn't close to one of the 5 greatest players of all time. I might be convinced he's been the best player over the last 10 years but that's about it.

Well, I might be biased but I live in France and saw him play ever since his pro start in 1991 up until to now...living in the US, you've probably heard of him for the first time, when ? 1998 ??

You certainly missed a lot of Zizou heroics from where you live because I can't imagine you saw him play with the Girondins Bordeaux from 1992-1996...

Have to have the global picture to say that...
an 18-year career comprising more than 500 clubs games, more than 100 international starts and more than 200 European games is quite a long resumé...
Sorry but Zidane was indeed NO Maradonna : he was much different and I can tell you i'd NEVER trade Zizou for Diego.

[condors]

Originally Posted by Darkiller

Well, I might be biased but I live in France and saw him play ever since his pro start in 1991 up until to now...living in the US, you've probably heard of him for the first time, when ? 1998 ??

You certainly missed a lot of Zizou heroics from where you live because I can't imagine you saw him play with the Girondins Bordeaux from 1992-1996...

Have to have the global picture to say that...
an 18-year career comprising more 500 clubs games, more than 100 international starts and more than 200 European games is quite a long resumé...
Sorry but Zidane was indeed NO Maradonna : he was much different and I can't tell you i'd NEVER trade Zizou for Diego.

Playing devils advocat here (i think Zidane was a great player but i don't see him as being better than Pele or Maradonna though)

Well Alan Shearer stats
Total (Club) apperances 734 (15) goals 378 along with 63 starts for England and 30 goals

and i don't think you can question who had a better supporting cast.

I am sure there are plenty of other players who could be brought into the discusion

[Neon_Chaos]

Haha.

Amazing.

See how Materazzi tries to get a kick in with his left foot!? While falling down! Brilliant.

[Katon]

Originally Posted by Darkiller

He is definitely at these guys level, and certainly more on the Pele/Maradonna level actually since he won a World Cup, a Euro championship and played in another World Cup final while being the tournament's MVP.

I won't go over his records and titles (way to many to list) but I think there is no question that he has to be ranked above Beckenbauer who was a defender (albeit a superb one) and not a midfielder.

Zidane is one of the 5 greatest players of All-time, some will argue he was the best ever based on his magic tricks in the middle.

Anyhow, and however you look at it, he is the game's best player of the last 20 years (say Pelé and other legends)

Just from the last 20 years, I'd take Platini over Zidane. Taking your arguments one by one:

Just winning a World Cup doesn't make someone an all-time great. Roque Junior has won a World Cup; does that make him a better player than Cruyff or Platini? And Zidane's '98 was more along the lines of Roque Junior than Beckenbauer in '74 or Maradona in '86. His biggest contribution to the first six matches of the tournament was to stamp on a Saudi Arabian and get suspended for two games. He was terrific in the final, of course, but one great match in a tournament doesn't get you much credit in the best-of-all-time argument. France won that tournament because you had Deschamps, Desailly, Blanc, Thuram, and Lizarazu, and so you conceded two goals all tournament (one of which was by your reserve team after you'd already qualified for the second round). Stick Platini or Cruyff in front of that defence, give them home advantage, and they'd win the WC too - and be more use in the early rounds.

He also didn't really deserve the Golden Ball at this year's tournament. He had one absolutely brilliant match (Brazil), one very good match (Spain), one match where he played well but without much end product apart from a penalty (Portugal), one match where he scored a penalty and played fairly well till he lost his head and got sent off (Italy), two matches where he didn't play particularly well, and one match where he was suspended. Brazil and Spain were wonderful performances, but he doesn't deserve to beat people who were on the pitch and playing well for seven matches, and there were a number of those: Cannavaro, Pirlo, and Buffon for the Italians, Makelele and Thuram for France.

At club level, his list of trophies is actually fairly short: Serie A titles in '97 and '98 with Juve, the '02 CL and '03 Primera Liga with Real. That's just not particularly impressive, especially given the size of the clubs he was playing for. There are a lot of players in modern football with much better records: Deco, Scholes, Keane, Nedved, ... Zizou still ranks ahead of them, but historically there are guys who were at least as good technically, performed more consistently, and won more trophies. Not a lot, but enough to put him around nearer #20 all-time than #2.

[ISiddiqui]

He also didn't really deserve the Golden Ball at this year's tournament. He had one absolutely brilliant match (Brazil), one very good match (Spain), one match where he played well but without much end product apart from a penalty (Portugal), one match where he scored a penalty and played fairly well till he lost his head and got sent off (Italy), two matches where he didn't play particularly well, and one match where he was suspended.

And France goes how far if Zidane has a bad or average game against Spain, Brazil, or Portugal? Zidane won because without him, they don't go past Brazil or maybe even Spain.

As for his technical skill compared to other players, you are forgeting about creativity (that's the problem with you Europeans, all about technique and nothing about creativeness ).

[DanGarion]

Oh and here is another World Cup thing.

hxxp://thewade.blogs.com/my_weblog/2006/07/italy_wins_in_b.html

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Haha.

Amazing.

See how Materazzi tries to get a kick in with his left foot!? While falling down! Brilliant.

In other news, I just discovered that there is an actual Philippine national team.

http://www.philfootball.info/

I always assumed that it was defunct for years...

[Katon]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And France goes how far if Zidane has a bad or average game against Spain, Brazil, or Portugal? Zidane won because without him, they don't go past Brazil or maybe even Spain.

As for his technical skill compared to other players, you are forgeting about creativity (that's the problem with you Europeans, all about technique and nothing about creativeness ).

Zidane did have an average match against Portugal. France won anyway. I'm not entirely sure how you argue that a team which won its quarter and its semi 1-0 was primarily dependent on an attacking midfielder (as opposed to, say, a very very good defence led by an all-time great defensive midfielder and centre-back).

If Cannavaro isn't playing out of his skin, Italy don't beat Australia, Germany, or Italy, and the Czech Republic match would've been interesting (my guess: they draw, sticking them up against Brazil). Look, I'm not arguing that Zidane wasn't brilliant against Spain or especially Brazil. He was. It's just that if you've got five guys who were world-class for seven matches and one guy who was world-class for two matches, I don't see how you give the Golden Ball to the latter.

Oh, and get your stereotypes right: I'm English, so I disdain both technique and creativity in favor of work rate and good honest running . Zidane was the most elegant and arguably the most entertaining player of recent history, but that's not quite the same as being the most effective or the best.

[ISiddiqui]

Even in 1-0, an attacking MF can take over a game. The defense was very good for France, but without Zidane's play or leadership, France doesn't go anywhere. It was Zidane setting up plays for Ribery and Henry, forcing the Brazilians to watch out in the defense and maybe not press forward as much as they would have liked, though Makelele and Thuram played very well.

For example, one can argue that England had an excellent defense. All they needed to actually make some noise in the tourney was a creative MF which the skill and talent to make everyone on the pitch better.

Cannavaro was excellent as well, that is why he got the Silver Ball. But Cannavaro had the better supporting cast. He has the best GK in the world, and wonderful defensive backs. Materazzi wasn't that good in central defense, but Gattuso was (who is arguably a better DM than Makelele). He may have been more consistant, but so was his entire defensive squad.

Zidane was the most elegant and arguably the most entertaining player of recent history, but that's not quite the same as being the most effective or the best.

As you stated, there are others just as technical (just more consistant), which seems to indicate Zidane is similar in technical skill, but adds wonderful creativity, though isn't as consistant. I'll take the guy who is excellent in technical skill and creativity, but only 80% of the time than the guy who was great in only technical skill 95% of the time. I think he's far close to 10 (and beyond) than 20.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

For example, one can argue that England had an excellent defense. All they needed to actually make some noise in the tourney was a creative MF which the skill and talent to make everyone on the pitch better.

You mean like Wayne Rooney? Oops, he was playing as a lone target man. I wonder if Bruce and Sven exchanged tactical ideas before the WC.

[Katon]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Even in 1-0, an attacking MF can take over a game. The defense was very good for France, but without Zidane's play or leadership, France doesn't go anywhere. It was Zidane setting up plays for Ribery and Henry, forcing the Brazilians to watch out in the defense and maybe not press forward as much as they would have liked, though Makelele and Thuram played very well.

For example, one can argue that England had an excellent defense. All they needed to actually make some noise in the tourney was a creative MF which the skill and talent to make everyone on the pitch better.

Cannavaro was excellent as well, that is why he got the Silver Ball. But Cannavaro had the better supporting cast. He has the best GK in the world, and wonderful defensive backs. Materazzi wasn't that good in central defense, but Gattuso was (who is arguably a better DM than Makelele). He may have been more consistant, but so was his entire defensive squad.



As you stated, there are others just as technical (just more consistant), which seems to indicate Zidane is similar in technical skill, but adds wonderful creativity, though isn't as consistant. I'll take the guy who is excellent in technical skill and creativity, but only 80% of the time than the guy who was great in only technical skill 95% of the time. I think he's far close to 10 (and beyond) than 20.

Zidane played in six matches at the tournament. He was Golden Ball/all-time great level in two of them. That's 33%. Add in the '98 World Cup and he gets to three from eleven with three matches suspended. That's 27% or 21%, depending on whether or not you want to hold his suspensions against him. Not 80%, in any case. And there are players who were just as creative who had much better World Cups than Zidane's ever managed. Platini in '82 (or '86). Rivaldo in '02 (or '98).

How can you say that someone who played brilliantly two matches out of seven was better than someone who was brilliant seven matches out of seven? To return to an earlier question, how far do France go if they don't get out of the group stages? Zidane had nothing whatsoever to do with that; in fact, his poor performance was one of the major reasons that France wound up facing Spain instead of Brazil.

I also think you're underestimating France's defence. Three goals against in seven matches while playing Spain, Brazil, and Italy is a terrific record. Italy's was slightly better, but then Italy's defence at this tournament was one of the best in WC history, right up there with France's in '98. Thuram and Makelele would both make my team of the cup, and Gallas was also pretty much flawless. They were the main reason France was able to get away with scoring barely over a goal per game throughout the tournament.