The Obama Presidency - 2008 & 2012

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by miked

The fool thing was your anti-muslim BS and the quotes are pieced together and editorialized. I don't know how life started, the only scientific theory that has been tested is abiogenesis. I think life happened because of a higher power, but I also believe in the possibility it didn't. What I said was that I don't believe in one being presented as science in schools. Intelligent design is not science, even though I don't think anything in science rules it out.

Anti-muslim? Yes i dont believe in a moon God. There is only one God. I pray every night for muslims throughout the world to find Jesus Christ. This would be a great thing.

As for Intelligent design. Why isnt it science? because scientists say it isnt?
Scientists have tried to create life the exact same way they theorize that it started. And guess what? It fails every time. So if a hypothesis continues to fail, is this good science? Should it be taught in schools?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Interesting - but I wonder how a Swedish/Swiss/British pharm company makes that kind of money. Selling to Americans, right? They sell a pill to Sweden for $4 and America for $500. Do they need to be subsidized by us to develop?

(This sentence isn't intended to be sarcastic, even though it kind of gives off that tone).

We setup a system that is built to maximize revenues for pharmaceutical comapnies and not what's best for our country. Other countries do a better job of serving their citizens. We are subsidizing them out of choice and not necessity.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Anti-muslim? Yes i dont believe in a moon God. There is only one God. I pray every night for muslims throughout the world to find Jesus Christ.

They already found Jesus Christ, he's in the Koran. And they pray to the same god you do.

Judaism --> Christianity --> Islam

As for Intelligent design. Why isnt it science? because scientists say it isnt?

It's not science because there is no scientific evidence to back it up.

Scientists have tried to create life the exact same way they theorize that it started. And guess what? It fails every time. So if a hypothesis continues to fail, is this good science? Should it be taught in schools?

And then one day maybe they get it right. Or maybe they discover it wasn't abiogenesis, but something else. Or maybe we never know. That's how it works.

Besides, I don't really think abiogenesis is being taught in schools. It might get mentioned as a theory, I don't know. I was certainly never taught anything about it at all when I went to school.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I am very tolerant of people. But not a President that says he wants to make a "Kingdom on Earth". That is "Anti-Christ" talk. Now Im sure you will call me another name in your tolerant way that you do so well. But this is a very ominous quote.

I don't have any idea what this means. Is this code or something? "Kingdom on Earth" means that he's muslim or muslim-leaning or "Anti-Christ?" I don't get it.

Originally Posted by tarcone

And Im not really sure how i am being aan "ignorant hypocrite"?
I see a world that is based on religion. I see a President that leans towards a sworn enemies religion. I really dont see how this is ignorant or hypocritical.

Yes. For the record, yes, absolutely, you are being ignorant. Hypocrite? Not sure. But ignorant? Yes. That is a fact.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Anti-muslim? Yes i dont believe in a moon God. There is only one God. I pray every night for muslims throughout the world to find Jesus Christ. This would be a great thing.

Your religions are extremely similar. The Qur'an is filled with the old and new testaments. Outside of the actual messenger and a few other details, the religious are not much different from one another. I say this as someone who has studied and read both.

Originally Posted by tarcone

As for Intelligent design. Why isnt it science? because scientists say it isnt?

Because there is zero scientific evidence to support it. Just as we don't teach kids that Horus and Set control the cycle of day and night.

Originally Posted by tarcone

Scientists have tried to create life the exact same way they theorize that it started. And guess what? It fails every time. So if a hypothesis continues to fail, is this good science? Should it be taught in schools?

There are a lot of things that we'll never be able to reproduce on our own. It doesn't mean it didn't happen or that there isn't scientific evidence that it did happen. Scientists base their theories on the evidence in front of them. There is evidence for how life began and how it evolved from the start. None of that evidence points to a supernatural entity making it happen. If there is evidence of it, it would be used by scientists.

What you're saying is that if some theory can't be proven, the alternative must be right. That's not science.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Anti-muslim? Yes i dont believe in a moon God. There is only one God. I pray every night for muslims throughout the world to find Jesus Christ. This would be a great thing.

As for Intelligent design. Why isnt it science? because scientists say it isnt?
Scientists have tried to create life the exact same way they theorize that it started. And guess what? It fails every time. So if a hypothesis continues to fail, is this good science? Should it be taught in schools?

WTF is this "moon God" thing you're spouting??

Intelligent Design isn't science because it's not testable. And they have created complex amino acids in Miller-Urey "primordial soup" type experiments, which are the building blocks of life. Life occurring probably had an amazingly small chance of actually happening - you might have to run the experiment billions of billions of times in order to get life to happen.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

They already found Jesus Christ, he's in the Koran. And they pray to the same god you do.

Judaism --> Christianity --> Islam



It's not science because there is no scientific evidence to back it up.



And then one day maybe they get it right. Or maybe they discover it wasn't abiogenesis, but something else. Or maybe we never know. That's how it works.

Besides, I don't really think abiogenesis is being taught in schools. It might get mentioned as a theory, I don't know. I was certainly never taught anything about it at all when I went to school.

Wrong. muslims do not pray to the same God. They pray to Allah. Allah is not my God. They believe Jesus Christ was a prophet, not God.
Islam believes those that kill or are killed by unbelievers will go to the garden of paradise.
Those who submit their lives to Christ will go to Heaven.

Jesus is Love. Allah is not.

I think you are mistaken about the true God. I do not pray to God that allows murder or that women are required to be subservient.


There is no science to back abiogenesis either. How can life originate from an inanimate object without Intelligent design?
Thats your science?

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I don't have any idea what this means. Is this code or something? "Kingdom on Earth" means that he's muslim or muslim-leaning or "Anti-Christ?" I don't get it.




Yes. For the record, yes, absolutely, you are being ignorant. Hypocrite? Not sure. But ignorant? Yes. That is a fact.

The prophecies in the Bible say an Anti-Christ is coming. One of the things that an anti=christ will say is that he can provide a kingdom on Earth.
Im not saying that Obama is the anti-christ. But statements like this are very disturbing.

Please state your facts that I am being ignorant.

[DaddyTorgo]

i'm really confused - what is this "moon god" shit??

i know a decent amount about islam and there's nothing about Allah being a "mood god" that I know of.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i'm really confused - what is this "moon god" shit??

i know a decent amount about islam and there's nothing about Allah being a "mood god" that I know of.

ALLAH, the Moon God

Here you go.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Jesus is Love. Allah is not.

I think you are mistaken about the true God. I do not pray to God that allows murder or that women are required to be subservient.

?

Care to start another thread on this? I find this line of thought fascinating. Not being completely sarcastic either, it obviously is complete nonsense, but I really am intrigued on what this means. But I don't really want this Obama thread to get de-railed off politics. (I know it gets derailed all the time but you know) What are you inferring here?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Wrong. muslims do not pray to the same God. They pray to Allah. Allah is not my God. They believe Jesus Christ was a prophet, not God.
Islam believes those that kill or are killed by unbelievers will go to the garden of paradise.
Those who submit their lives to Christ will go to Heaven.

Jesus is Love. Allah is not.

I think you are mistaken about the true God. I do not pray to God that allows murder or that women are required to be subservient.


There is no science to back abiogenesis either. How can life originate from an inanimate object without Intelligent design?
Thats your science?

Ummm...Jesus wasn't God in Christianity either.

Do you realize how much blood is on the hands of Christianity throughout history?

Life can originate from an inanimate object through chemistry. Through an incredibly long process of chemical reactions, building amino acids, amino acids building (now here's where my chemistry gets fuzzy...dna first, or single-cell organisms first?), etc. Over hundreds of thousands or millions of years.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by tarcone

ALLAH, the Moon God

Here you go.

can you provide something that isn't from a group with an agenda?

because what i see on wikipedia is this:

In pre-Islamic Arabia, Allah was used by Meccans as a reference to the creator-god, possibly the supreme deity.^[12]

Allah at Rohtas Fort Pakistan


Allah was not considered the sole divinity; however, Allah was considered the creator of the world and the giver of rain. The notion of the term may have been vague in the Meccan religion.


And FYI - I can find plenty of links between Paganism and Christianity too, so any belief that your chosen religion is more "pure" is bullshit. All religions throughout history have borrowed liberally from others...it's one way of attracting easy converts.

[cartman]

Allah is simply the translated word for God, as is Yaweh. In pre-Islamic times, 'allah' was used to describe pagan idols, much like the term 'god' was used for the Greek and Roman entities. Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all children of Abraham.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by panerd

?

Care to start another thread on this? I find this line of thought fascinating. Not being completely sarcastic either, it obviously is complete nonsense, but I really am intrigued on what this means. But I don't really want this Obama thread to get de-railed off politics. (I know it gets derailed all the time but you know) What are you inferring here?

Sure.
I will start it in a minute.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Ummm...Jesus wasn't God in Christianity either.

Do you realize how much blood is on the hands of Christianity throughout history?

Life can originate from an inanimate object through chemistry. Through an incredibly long process of chemical reactions, building amino acids, amino acids building (now here's where my chemistry gets fuzzy...dna first, or single-cell organisms first?), etc. Over hundreds of thousands or millions of years.

Wrong. Jesus is God and Man. He was able to raise the dead and heel the sick.
I do know how much blood is on the hands of Christians. And your point is?

Really? Science has tried to recreate this. In fact scientists say the final thing that has to happen is electricity has to hit it. They think a bolt of lightning might have hit the primordial soup and then all of what you are talking about happened. Really? thats science?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Wrong. muslims do not pray to the same God. They pray to Allah. Allah is not my God. They believe Jesus Christ was a prophet, not God.
Islam believes those that kill or are killed by unbelievers will go to the garden of paradise.
Those who submit their lives to Christ will go to Heaven.

Jesus is Love. Allah is not.

Allah is just a word used for God, just as Yahweh is used by Christians. They believe that God is the creator. They have different views of what that God is, but also a lot of similarities. Allah is just a word as Arab Christians used the word to describe their Christian God.

Originally Posted by tarcone

I think you are mistaken about the true God. I do not pray to God that allows murder or that women are required to be subservient.

But you do. Christianity has been responsible for the killings of millions over the course of history. Charlemagne, the Crusades, I could go on and on. Your Bible has many mentions of women being sold into slavery and being the property of men. Perhaps that is not how people view it today, but that is what your holy book says. Not to mention the instances of rape and infanticide that you hold in your hands on Sundays.

Originally Posted by tarcone

There is no science to back abiogenesis either. How can life originate from an inanimate object without Intelligent design?
Thats your science?

There is though. Many books and research on it.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

can you provide something that isn't from a group with an agenda?

because what i see on wikipedia is this:

In pre-Islamic Arabia, Allah was used by Meccans as a reference to the creator-god, possibly the supreme deity.^[12]

Allah at Rohtas Fort Pakistan


Allah was not considered the sole divinity; however, Allah was considered the creator of the world and the giver of rain. The notion of the term may have been vague in the Meccan religion.


And FYI - I can find plenty of links between Paganism and Christianity too, so any belief that your chosen religion is more "pure" is bullshit. All religions throughout history have borrowed liberally from others...it's one way of attracting easy converts.

I really dont have a response to this, other then Allah is a pagan God. Not the real God.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Wrong. muslims do not pray to the same God. They pray to Allah. Allah is not my God. They believe Jesus Christ was a prophet, not God.
Islam believes those that kill or are killed by unbelievers will go to the garden of paradise.
Those who submit their lives to Christ will go to Heaven.

Uh... It's the same God, dude.

Originally Posted by tarcone

Jesus is Love. Allah is not.

I think you are mistaken about the true God. I do not pray to God that allows murder or that women are required to be subservient.

You are funny:

Condoning Murder (there are actually about 100 of these, I just copied the first few):

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)


Women must be subservient:

As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. (NIV, 1 Corinthians 14:33-35)

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. (NIV, 1 Timothy 2:11-12)

[DaddyTorgo]

Alright, so let's return this thread to it's regular topics hmm?

_________________________________________________________________

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Alright, so let's return this thread to it's regular topics hmm?

_________________________________________________________________

But this is more fun.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

And FYI - I can find plenty of links between Paganism and Christianity too, so any belief that your chosen religion is more "pure" is bullshit. All religions throughout history have borrowed liberally from others...it's one way of attracting easy converts.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Anti-muslim? Yes i dont believe in a moon God. There is only one God. I pray every night for muslims throughout the world to find Jesus Christ. This would be a great thing.

As for Intelligent design. Why isnt it science? because scientists say it isnt?
Scientists have tried to create life the exact same way they theorize that it started. And guess what? It fails every time. So if a hypothesis continues to fail, is this good science? Should it be taught in schools?

Dolly

BTW anyone have difficulty seeing how the Health Care debate is getting derailed into this fringe element of Gun toters, threats of violence, militia stuff?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The "God" and the "Jesus" that Christians worship today are actually amalgams formed out of ancient pagan gods. The idea of a "virgin birth", "burial in a rock tomb", "resurrection after 3 days" and "eating of body and drinking of blood" had nothing to do with Jesus. All of the rituals in Christianity are completely man-made. Christianity is a snow ball that rolled over a dozen pagan religions. As the snowball grew, it freely attached pagan rituals in order to be more palatable to converts. You can find accounts like these in popular literature:

"The vestiges of pagan religion in Christian symbology are undeniable. Egyptian sun disks became the halos of Catholic saints. Pictograms of Isis nursing her miraculously conceived son Horus became the blueprint for our modern images of the Virgin Mary nursing Baby Jesus. And virtually all the elements of the Catholic ritual - the miter, the altar, the doxology, and communion, the act of "God-eating" - were taken directly from earlier pagan mystery religions."

"Nothing in Christianity is original. The pre-Christian God Mithras - called the Son of God and the Light of the World - was born on December 25, died, was buried in a rock tomb, and then resurrected in three days. By the way, December 25 is also the birthday or Osiris, Adonis, and Dionysus. The newborn Krishna was presented with gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Even Christianity's weekly holy day was stolen from the pagans."

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Allah is just a word used for God, just as Yahweh is used by Christians. They believe that God is the creator. They have different views of what that God is, but also a lot of similarities. Allah is just a word as Arab Christians used the word to describe their Christian God.

But you do. Christianity has been responsible for the killings of millions over the course of history. Charlemagne, the Crusades, I could go on and on. Your Bible has many mentions of women being sold into slavery and being the property of men. Perhaps that is not how people view it today, but that is what your holy book says. Not to mention the instances of rape and infanticide that you hold in your hands on Sundays.


There is though. Many books and research on it.

True, but Allah is a different Gid worshiped by Muslims then the God I worship as a Christian.

True again. And sin is a very bad thing. The 10 c=Commandments are what we strive to live by. You bet their was death in the Bible. God made covenants with people. And he has chosen ones. Just like today. The Jewish are Gods chosen ones. But I follow Jesus Christs law, which is Love.
Sin is the quickest way to lose your life. Choosing a sinful life is against God.

As for Intelligent desing, there are many books and research on it.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by tarcone

True, but Allah is a different Gid worshiped by Muslims then the God I worship as a Christian.

True again. And sin is a very bad thing. The 10 c=Commandments are what we strive to live by. You bet their was death in the Bible. God made covenants with people. And he has chosen ones. Just like today. The Jewish are Gods chosen ones. But I follow Jesus Christs law, which is Love.
Sin is the quickest way to lose your life. Choosing a sinful life is against God.

As for Intelligent desing, there are many books and research on it.

There are also many books and research on Zombies.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

The "God" and the "Jesus" that Christians worship today are actually amalgams formed out of ancient pagan gods. The idea of a "virgin birth", "burial in a rock tomb", "resurrection after 3 days" and "eating of body and drinking of blood" had nothing to do with Jesus. All of the rituals in Christianity are completely man-made. Christianity is a snow ball that rolled over a dozen pagan religions. As the snowball grew, it freely attached pagan rituals in order to be more palatable to converts. You can find accounts like these in popular literature:

"The vestiges of pagan religion in Christian symbology are undeniable. Egyptian sun disks became the halos of Catholic saints. Pictograms of Isis nursing her miraculously conceived son Horus became the blueprint for our modern images of the Virgin Mary nursing Baby Jesus. And virtually all the elements of the Catholic ritual - the miter, the altar, the doxology, and communion, the act of "God-eating" - were taken directly from earlier pagan mystery religions."

"Nothing in Christianity is original. The pre-Christian God Mithras - called the Son of God and the Light of the World - was born on December 25, died, was buried in a rock tomb, and then resurrected in three days. By the way, December 25 is also the birthday or Osiris, Adonis, and Dionysus. The newborn Krishna was presented with gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Even Christianity's weekly holy day was stolen from the pagans."

Really? The Bible says nothing of this. The Bible is Gods direct words to us. therefore your paganism is wrong. The Bible is the truth.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Really? The Bible says nothing of this. The Bible is Gods direct words to us. therefore your paganism is wrong. The Bible is the truth.

Oh man. If you're going to play the "Bible is literally the word of God" card then you might as well go away because you're impossible to have an intellectual conversation with.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by tarcone

The Bible says nothing of this.

Big surprise there. Actually it was in a verse from a long lost book from the first draft of the bible.

"Hey. You know all of these stories we put in this book that are supposed to be true? Well, we borrowed most of them from earlier religions. And the others we just made up. Except the part where the apostles drank Jesus's blood and ate his flesh. That TOTALLY happened."
- Doug, 5:16

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by KWhit

"Hey. You know all of these stories we put in this book that are supposed to be true? Well, we borrowed most of them from earlier religions. And the others we just made up. Except the part where the apostles drank Jesus's blood and ate his flesh. That TOTALLY happened."
- Doug, 5:16

actually that was totally a Cult of Mithras thing IIRC...

[Flasch186]

I wonder why the Town Hall sessions turn into this twisted discussion on right wing religious crap and how it is blended with some of this other political GOP rhetoric, like less govt intervention, 'give me my country back', socialism, stuff. See the moderate group, for the most part will sit there and ask great questions like Arles did, posing even suggestions, but people like this, fringe element, will stand up, shout over their allies and opponents, and basically become the 'momentum' while the middle get stuck with watching the fight while compromise becomes lost int his morass of shit that never shouldve been talked about in the first place at a "health Care" town hall debate.

If nothing else at least MBBF will have no legs to stand on, even in this thread when he says that this isnt representative. Percentage wise alone its simply inarguable as to what would garner that 'momentum', coverage, and therefore headlines and in turn sheep.

[Atocep]

I really don't want to read this stuff because its frustrating to see. At the same time I feel it's kind of cool that FOFC has one of their own "them" type of people. Thus, I keep coming back to this thread and reading it. I can't stop. I will refrain from posting about religion, though, as promised. I also feel bad if I'm the one that got this started again.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by molson

The only problem of course, is that a single-payer system would mark the end of medical and technological developments in this country. As long as you have a richer, capitalist company and their corporations to leach off of (like everyone else in the world has with the U.S.), it's a great system. But who can we leech off of?

This is definitely a concern of mine. And to say "an end of medical and technological development" is really overstating it. But it will slow. However, I think we've reached or have passed a tipping point with regards to medical technology- it's far too expensive for the greater good. How useful is this medical technology if few can afford it because it's too costly?

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by molson

I actually think that's a good long term goal. For some reason the single-payer system scares me less than a complicated attempt to attempt to co-exist with the private sector.

Ideally, the way to see that happen would be 50 states trying out something, and then we learn from each other's mistakes, and eventually, have a fed plan that has some track record of success at the state level. But when all we have is failure at the state level right now, it's hard to be too confident

I'd be quite curious to see something like this. It sounds like a short term disaster but with some long term gain. That is, provided people have the patience to see something like this through- which I don't see. And that "at the state level" isn't just code word for "reduce the funding and scale and try to kill it" as arguments about states' rights often are these days.

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by molson

Not disagreeing but asking - why aren't there cutting edge medical technologies and drugs coming from European states (or are they)? Why is it all American companies?

I've wondered this a few times out loud but I don't know if I've posted it to the forums- it's part of my magical omnibus economy theory thread that I've wanted to write but never have had the time.

Basically, if you're the US Government looking for long term sovereignty, what is your best bet for companies? Would you rather have what we have now with huge multi-national corporations and all of their advantages (economies of scale) but also huge disadvantages (too much meddling in government for their own interests to stifle genuine competition and introduce entry barriers)? Or would it be better to have a more competitive marketplace as that likely suits the needs of your consumers better?

In short, if you're the government- is it in your best interest to have a few big fat actors to compete across the global stage or a bunch of leaner, smaller ones?

SI

[Arles]

Interesting discussion on Muslim vs Christianity, but it's one I have very little to add to (or wish to be a part of). I'll got back to reading the 1000-page house bill and you guys have at it

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

I do believe this is happening now as well, but do you think (know?) to what degree? Are we talking about 2-4 doctor offices consolidating to 10-15? Or are we talking about 2-3 being gobbled up into 50-100 doctor conglomerates?

I can see the former being inevitable due to liability, insurance, complexity of compliances, etc. But the latter is what I see as not necessarily unavoidable (though I'm sure there is an arguement for it as a benefit).

This goes to what I was talking about above. In most every business, you have an economy of scale advantage- not just a bit of inefficiency gain, but, more importantly, a geometric increase of your influence.

SI

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

The only problem of course, is that a single-payer system would mark the end of medical and technological developments in this country. As long as you have a richer, capitalist company and their corporations to leach off of (like everyone else in the world has with the U.S.), it's a great system. But who can we leech off of?

I think there are ways to avoid that. First off, open up the borders to the trade of pharmaceutical drugs. Let me buy my drugs from Canada if I want. Stop allowing these companies to price control by each country.

What this does is force the hand of other countries. Pfizer isn't going to sell a drug for $5 to France that it sells for $100 here because we'll just buy it from France. It will force them to tell France that they can no longer sell it at that price. Force them to pay more while lowering our costs.

I'd note that I wouldn't have a problem with banning the drug sales from some smaller countries that need cheaper drugs. I don't want to see a third world country paying the same rates we do. But I do want to see the people in France and Canada paying the same rates we do.

The other thing that I think is missing from this is that a lot of advancement doesn't come through pure R&D from these companies, but from government grants. There isn't big money to be made from many cancer treatments. The money is in arthritis, acid reflux, depression, and penis pills. These companies would make them all day if they could because that is where they can reach the most people.

So no matter what happens, research for drugs that help cancer and other major illnesses will still come from government and other private organizations.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by molson

Not disagreeing but asking - why aren't there cutting edge medical technologies and drugs coming from European states (or are they)? Why is it all American companies?

Cuba has kick-ass healthcare. But they're definitely not developing anything.

Also, this goes back to other disadvantages Europe had 50 years ago with R&D. They had none as we were the only global power with even half of our infrastructure intact after WW2. Not only was ours going well, it was accelerating while the rest of the "civilized" world was trying to put their countries back together. People always fail to forget what a huge advantage we had 2 generations ago and it is already much to our detriment as we are behaving like some modern day manifest destiny that we should be the world's superpower as it has always been and always should be.

SI

[sterlingice]

You know, this actual health care debate stuff is fun- that's like, what, 5 posts in a row?

SI

[Flasch186]

Obama is a muslim. there.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

If nothing else at least MBBF will have no legs to stand on, even in this thread when he says that this isnt representative. Percentage wise alone its simply inarguable as to what would garner that 'momentum', coverage, and therefore headlines and in turn sheep.

Seriously, dude, do you think it validates your argument to take a shot at someone everytime you state your opinion? This has been several posts in a row you have either taken a shot at Republicans, conservatives, or MBBF. Granted, MBBF is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but you sit beside him on the short bus. How about you discuss the actual topic of healthcare reform and leave the pot shots out?

[molson]

It's funny to see the discussion suddenly get constructive without the usual players around, and then all of the sudden Flasch is back in the middle of it randomly attacking MBBF, trying to pick an Obama/Muslim fight, and highlighting the conservative fringe. The supporters' argument is much more persuasive when it doesn't feel the need to resort to such things.

[miked]

I'm still confused as to why we believe all innovation comes from the states. Maybe I missed it in the stupidity of the religious troll, but there is much more innovation coming from Asia and Europe these days. I'm not certain it's necessarily tied to healthcare spending though, as those areas have spent a lot of money on research programs while the ones here had budget cuts.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by molson

It's funny to see the discussion suddenly get constructive without the usual players around, and then all of the sudden Flasch is back in the middle of it randomly attacking MBBF, trying to pick an Obama/Muslim fight, and highlighting the conservative fringe. The supporters' argument is much more persuasive when it doesn't feel the need to resort to such things.

Actually, it's pretty evident Flasch was just making a joke in response to SI's post that there were actually 5 posts in a row discussing the health care debate.

[molson]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Actually, it's pretty evident Flasch was just making a joke in response to SI's post that there were actually 5 posts in a row discussing the health care debate.

Maybe that last post, but I don't know about the previous 300.

It just seems like its easier to pick fights on the fringes that you can win than actually support this plan.

[rowech]

YouTube - Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine

This is the kind of speaker the Republican party so badly lacks.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Actually, it's pretty evident Flasch was just making a joke in response to SI's post that there were actually 5 posts in a row discussing the health care debate.

evidentally not evident enough.

I was also referencing MBBF's ignoring (not ignorance) when he makes a statement, is called out upon it, THEN ignores the debate, as he did. When MBBF begins a topic (whether it be the topic du jour or not), hears the counter, and then, instead of throwing the victim/strawman/faux shock card down, talks about it, we will truly have discussion. As it is I do feel the need to continue to deride him of this facet of his game so that it doesnt hang out there and over time morph itself into a 'point' or 'angle' or 'truth'.

Duckman, I do appreciate the commentary and if you'd read the crux of my statement a few points above in response to Arles great discussion, I dont have the right answers, nor do I pretend to but I do know we have problems with healthcare and the debate on that particular topic is being bastardized by some tangential topics that truly have little to do with solving healthcare. I dont know whether or not, which of the different bills being debated about and what portion of them I support or dont. I worry about costs too and also worry about costs if nothing is done. That being said, the topic at hand is the one I'd like to learn about and not let it get derailed by the fringes talking about "death panels", "socialism", etc. When MBBF or others in the real world drop their little nuggets, "Ie., I was thinking about this today blah blah blah..." and they get grabbed ahold of by the Tarcone's and the Al Sharpton's it does no one any favors. I am still trying to learn all of the facets of whatever bill is finally talked about and its pros and cons.

FWIW I dont expect MBBF to respond to my counters of his statements since that is his game but I do still feel it important that someone, be it myself or someone else, continue to call out facets of his points when they are countered and he moves on to the next 'point', to rinse and repeat and never go back to the first topic he made commentary about. If he gets away with leaving the statement hanging out there, much like talking heads do on radio and TV, and never have to revisit the issue then the statement becomes 'truth'. View me the same as MBBF and that's cool, I feel the need to make sure that his spin is seen as spun.

On that note, and since I feel Ive at least explained my motivation, I will attempt to leave 'pot shots' out. That being said I have no fruitless Idea that he will begin to truly re-address the times when he spins his magic on the topic dujour, and then ignores the debate that ensues to move on to his next drop shot.

All of the above is my opinion

[Arles]

Originally Posted by miked

I'm still confused as to why we believe all innovation comes from the states. Maybe I missed it in the stupidity of the religious troll, but there is much more innovation coming from Asia and Europe these days. I'm not certain it's necessarily tied to healthcare spending though, as those areas have spent a lot of money on research programs while the ones here had budget cuts.

It's not that all innovation occurs in the US, it's that the US population funds most of the innovation (partly because of our current health care system). As I said earlier, this isn't necessarily a good thing.

However, if the same UK/Europe/Canada system is setup in the States, the profit margins will go down for a lot of these pharm companies. Past activity shows when this occurs than money spent in R&D will decrease to keep the profit margin/share price higher. Now, maybe the US should stop being the financier of drug companies. But the reality is that once that happens, a lot of dollars currently going into R&D for new drugs will dry up.

[RainMaker]

Anyone want to take a wager when we get our next domestic attack?

Obama's Safety: Hate Groups Thrive Amidst Town Hall Health Care Debates - ABC News