*World Cup Game Discussion Thread* (SPOILERS)

[ISiddiqui]

Well Zidane is a Muslim, so 'terrorist' could fit as a slur, but "Terrone" seems to be just as likely and perhaps is what Materazzi said.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by vyshka

There were quite a few mics around the field so I am wondering if any of them caught the incident. I think they should both submit to polygraph since they are claiming different things. We want the truth!!

This article doesn't address an audio decyphering, but an Italian lip reader's opinion about what was said. I'm not familiar with an Italian phrase for "I wish an ugly death on you and all your family", but I DO know the Italian phrase for "go f*ck yourself" is "vaffanculo", sometimes shortened by leaving off the "va". The literal translation is "go and stick it in your ass". I'm sure that Zidane heard this a time or two during his stint with Juventus. It appears that Materazzi indeed did say this right before the headbutt based on a YouTube video I saw.

hxxp://football.guardian.co.uk/worldcup2006/story/0,,1817551,00.html

Lip-reader reveals what riled Zidane

An Italian lip-reader last night claimed to have deciphered the words Marco Materazzi said to Zinédine Zidane that provoked the French captain into butting him in the chest during Sunday's World Cup final, the great midfielder's final act before a red card ended his career in top-level football.

According to the BBC, Materazzi said, "I wish an ugly death to you and all your family," and then told Zidane to "go fuck yourself".

A Paris-based anti-racism group, SOS-Racism, earlier said that "several very well informed sources" had suggested Zidane was called a "dirty terrorist".

But though video evidence is being used to judge Materazzi, it was not used by match officials to condemn Zidane. Fifa yesterday released a statement insisting that "the fourth referee saw the incident with his own eyes and told the referee and the assistant directly through their headsets".

The controversy did not stop Zidane from winning the Golden Ball as the World Cup's best player, ahead of the final's other captain, Italy's Fabio Cannavaro. The Frenchman earned 2,012 points in a poll of journalists covering the event, with Cannavaro on 1,977 and the Italian midfielder Andrea Pirlo third with 715.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Well Zidane is a Muslim, so 'terrorist' could fit as a slur

It doesn't matter. A professional sportsman should recognise that as a windup not a personal insult. It's puerile to react as Zidane did.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, Hi, I'm refering to JIMG's contention that 'terrorist' didn't make too much sense. We can "stop fighting the last war" now.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Well Zidane is a Muslim, so 'terrorist' could fit as a slur, but "Terrone" seems to be just as likely and perhaps is what Materazzi said.

Yeah, I thought about the Muslim angle but it somehow just felt like a random thing to come up with in that situation, unless of course there was some issue concerning religion/politics/whateverothercontext that provided some specific backstory I wasn't aware of.

Basically, I didn't discount it as a possibility, but I found the alternate answer more ... I dunno, believable I guess.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Yeah, I thought about the Muslim angle but it somehow just felt like a random thing to come up with in that situation, unless of course there was some issue concerning religion/politics/whateverothercontext that provided some specific backstory I wasn't aware of.

Basically, I didn't discount it as a possibility, but I found the alternate answer more ... I dunno, believable I guess.

Probably either can work. I tend to agree that it was probably more racial, but after the Muslim riots in France, a religious thing could work as well. Either or, I guess, it was pretty nasty reference to race or religion and seemingly may have included Materazzi saying he was going to wish death on Zidane's family.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

It doesn't matter. A professional sportsman should recognise that as a windup not a personal insult. It's puerile to react as Zidane did.

The more I reflect on it, the more I'm really dissapointed he reacted the way he did. Playing hockey growing up there were plenty of insults thrown around, including a lot of racial epithets if a black player was playing. I honestly can't remember a fight resulting from it.

If what was said was so vicious as to be at that level, I really would have just told the official. It's one thing to head butt someone at 18, it's another at 34. That said, if it was either a terrorist comment, or a n*gger type comment, I completely understand why he did what he did.

[thealmighty]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Must've confused him with all the Italian forwards and midfielders then.

I was talking about Materazzi, not Zidane (can't tell from the tone of your post whether you see that or not).

[MrBug708]

http://widelec.org/zidane.html

Not sur eif it was posted

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

The more I reflect on it, the more I'm really dissapointed he reacted the way he did. Playing hockey growing up there were plenty of insults thrown around, including a lot of racial epithets if a black player was playing. I honestly can't remember a fight resulting from it.

If what was said was so vicious as to be at that level, I really would have just told the official. It's one thing to head butt someone at 18, it's another at 34. That said, if it was either a terrorist comment, or a n*gger type comment, I completely understand why he did what he did.

I used to play cricket. I know of no other game that needs such concentration as batting does in this game.

You would go out to the centre blinking your eyes from the sun after being in the dark of the pavilion. You'd settle down and a guy would hurtle in to bowl (pitch) the ball at you at 95 mph. It could come straight for your head, your stomach, your toes. Occasionally it would be at the wicket. You would have a quarter of a second to respond. Concentration was everything.

As he approached the wicket a little voice behind you would say something like "Your sister was a helluva f...k last night". He didn't need to rile you into throwing a punch but merely deflect your attention for a single moment and you'd be heading back to the pavilion.

If it worked then it was no use complaining to the umpire on the way back to the pavilion. He would have said something like "Funny, that. She was hopeless the night before. Now get off the pitch and get the next guy in here quick".

The answer to the taunt was to despatch the ball to the boundary and then turn around and grin at the 'keeper who'd spoken

It's gamesmanship. It stinks. But a thirty four year old should handle it.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

http://widelec.org/zidane.html

Not sur eif it was posted

Has anyone seen the avatars for the incident? The mortal combat one cracked me up.

"Finish Him"

[MrBug708]

It;s on page 71

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

I used to play cricket. I know of no other game that needs such concentration as batting does in this game.

You would go out to the centre blinking your eyes from the sun after being in the dark of the pavilion. You'd settle down and a guy would hurtle in to bowl (pitch) the ball at you at 95 mph. It could come straight for your head, your stomach, your toes. Occasionally it would be at the wicket. You would have a quarter of a second to respond. Concentration was everything.

As he approached the wicket a little voice behind you would say something like "Your sister was a helluva f...k last night". He didn't need to rile you into throwing a punch but merely deflect your attention for a single moment and you'd be heading back to the pavilion.

If it worked then it was no use complaining to the umpire on the way back to the pavilion. He would have said something like "Funny, that. She was hopeless the night before. Now get off the pitch and get the next guy in here quick".

The answer to the taunt was to despatch the ball to the boundary and then turn around and grin at the 'keeper who'd spoken

It's gamesmanship. It stinks. But a thirty four year old should handle it.

I think there's a difference between obvious wind-up comments about someone's sister, mother, mother's chosen profession, etc., and a racist or cultural insult. Black and white to me. It's silly to hold fans and the general public to one standard and players to another if Materazzi really did say what he's accused of saying (either the terrorist or the Algeria/sand n*gger comments).

I agree that at 34 years old, you should be able to overlook any insult, especially at that level. At the same time, I can understand why you wouldn't overlook certain insults.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I think there's a difference between obvious wind-up comments about someone's sister, mother, mother's chosen profession, etc., and a racist or cultural insult. Black and white to me. It's silly to hold fans and the general public to one standard and players to another if Materazzi really did say what he's accused of saying (either the terrorist or the Algeria/sand n*gger comments).

I agree that at 34 years old, you should be able to overlook any insult, especially at that level. At the same time, I can understand why you wouldn't overlook certain insults.

They're not insults, they're a taunt. I presume that Zidane isn't a terrorist. Something so outrageously untrue cannot be seen as an insult.

I don't particularly approve of it but I do say that a professional sportsman should be able to handle it. Once you see the taunt as that, not a personal insult, then you deal with it.

When Cantona reacted to such a taunt from a fan he had a 9 month ban (and, yes, I know a fan is slightly different). I'll bet Zidane doesn't get anything like that. There is something unpleasant about attempts to excuse him. It was violent play of the worst kind and should be dealt with accordingly and attempts to downplay the reaction as somehow justified simply isn't acceptable.

If Materazzi's taunts were so vile then it seems peculiar that Zidane won't tell us. If they break FIFA's rules against racism then he should be punished also.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

It;s on page 71

Not the same one.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

They're not insults, they're a taunt. I presume that Zidane isn't a terrorist. Something so outrageously untrue cannot be seen as an insult.

I don't particularly approve of it but I do say that a professional sportsman should be able to handle it. Once you see the taunt as that, not a personal insult, then you deal with it.

When Cantona reacted to such a taunt from a fan he had a 9 month ban (and, yes, I know a fan is slightly different). I'll bet Zidane doesn't get anything like that. There is something unpleasant about attempts to excuse him. It was violent play of the worst kind and should be dealt with accordingly and attempts to downplay the reaction as somehow justified simply isn't acceptable.

If Materazzi's taunts were so vile then it seems peculiar that Zidane won't tell us. If they break FIFA's rules against racism then he should be punished also.

I didn't say I condoned what he did. I don't condone it, but I certainly understand it if what is being reported was actually what was said. I agree that his actions shouldn't be swept under the rug, but I'd like to hear what exactly was said before passing judgement. There is a large difference between saying "yo momma" and saying "you racial epithet."

[Zone]

Materazzi's agent claims it was a comment about Zidane's wife. This article also claims it was about his family. What the article is stating, which apperantly no one knows, is Zidane's mother is currentll ill. The French players have stated it was a comment about Zidane mom that set him off.

http://www.channel4.com/sport/footba...ia/jul11b.html

Marco Materazzi has dismissed claims that Zinedine Zidane turned and head-butted him after calling the French ace a “terrorist”.

The former Juventus playmaker ended his career in disgrace on Sunday when he reacted violently to something said by the Italian during the World Cup Final.

But Materazzi has distanced himself from claims that he threw the word “terrorist” at the 34-year-old.

“The whole world saw what happened on television,” the ex-Perugia man, who scored in the Final, stated.

“Terrorist? It’s not true, I did not call him a terrorist,” he added. “I’m ignorant, I don’t even know what the word means.”

Zidane has yet to reveal his version of events, but a host of media organisations all over the world have been employing lip-readers to shed light on what made Zizou lose control.

According to the BBC, Materazzi is alleged to have said: “I wish an ugly death to you and all your family. Go **** yourself.”

The Sun newspapers believes Materazzi’s insult was aimed at Zidane’s mother Milika, who is suffering with illness.

Their Italian lip-reader believes that the stopper called the No 10 a “son of a terrorist whore” before he was sent crashing to the ground by Zidane’s attack.

However, Materazzi’s agent has defended his client and insisted Zizou reacted to a jibe about the possibility of swapping shirts at the end of the game. “I’d rather take the shirt off your wife,” it’s claimed he stated.

[MIJB#19]

Materazzi acted like a jerk, nothing that didn't happen before
Zidane acted like a moron, nothing that didn't happen before

Bottom line, Materazzi got what he was there for, winning the biggest sports trophy there is, while Zidane will have to do with the one he won eight years ago. Now Materazzi will continue to be a jerk, because he once again got success with his habits. And right now, I'm starting to think that at least it was a cool thing that finally somebody gave it to Materazzi, but in the end Zidane will go down into the history books as te loser of the two, because at that moment his team lost the World Cup.

[CraigSca]

You're right, MIJB. Materazzi was "successful" in his attempt to rile Zidane. It not only distracted him, it also got him kicked out of the game and handed the cup to Italy. Because he was successful, this will continue. It's also why the persistent "falling like someone just took a razor blade to your achilles tendon when you get nudged" pratfalling will continue in soccer. The rewards outweigh the punishment.

[Zone]

For what it is worth here is Materazzi's version of events.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...06/5168126.stm

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

There's a lot of special pleading for Zidane. After nearly 20 years in the game he should be able to recognise a windup by now and ignore it. I don't care what was said, you learn to ignore it and get on with the game. He has serious anger management problems.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Zone

Materazzi's agent claims it was a comment about Zidane's wife. This article also claims it was about his family. What the article is stating, which apperantly no one knows, is Zidane's mother is currentll ill. The French players have stated it was a comment about Zidane mom that set him off...

And the idiot STILL claims he doesn't know what a 'terrorist' is! I'm sorry, but after 9/11 and 7/7, if you don't know what an Islamic terrorist is then you are either mentally incompetent (ok, its possible for Materazzi) or lying out your ass with a horrible excuse. Its probably the latter.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Materazzi acted like a jerk, nothing that didn't happen before
Zidane acted like a moron, nothing that didn't happen before

Bottom line, Materazzi got what he was there for, winning the biggest sports trophy there is, while Zidane will have to do with the one he won eight years ago. Now Materazzi will continue to be a jerk, because he once again got success with his habits. And right now, I'm starting to think that at least it was a cool thing that finally somebody gave it to Materazzi, but in the end Zidane will go down into the history books as te loser of the two, because at that moment his team lost the World Cup.

Interestingly enough, that is what I've heard from most European football fans. And some others wished Zidane went a little higher and hit Materazzi in the jaw. A lot of "excusing" of Zidane, as some put it, is a result of people knowing the other guy has been and continues to be a total asshat and probably the worst that football has to offer. I'm 100% sure that the reaction would have been absolutely different if it was, say, Cannavaro who was on the recieving end.

[Neon_Chaos]

I will still love Zidane for that headbutt. BEAUTIFUL.

[FrogMan]

wow, talk about some weird news, from:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5168890.stm

very very odd...

FM

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Not that odd. Probably everything else in his life sucks. So, after putting on a great World Cup, and seeing how he had nothing now to live for, he decided to go out with a bang.





Couldn't resist.

[MJ4H]

Article in German, but FIFA could potentially take the World Cup Title from Italy because of racist remarks by Materazzi? (this is my interpretation using my rusty German):

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball...426180,00.html

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by MattJones4Heisman

Article in German, but FIFA could potentially take the World Cup Title from Italy because of racist remarks by Materazzi? (this is my interpretation using my rusty German):

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball...426180,00.html

I'm all for stamping out racism, but that would be absolutely ridiculous. I think FIFA has the right (by their rules anyways) to do so, but they would never act upon it.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by MattJones4Heisman

Article in German, but FIFA could potentially take the World Cup Title from Italy because of racist remarks by Materazzi? (this is my interpretation using my rusty German):

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball...426180,00.html

I can't read German, but that would be silly... instead the article may be saying (but almost just as silly) to take away Materazzi's WC medal for racist remarks.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Interestingly enough, that is what I've heard from most European football fans. And some others wished Zidane went a little higher and hit Materazzi in the jaw. A lot of "excusing" of Zidane, as some put it, is a result of people knowing the other guy has been and continues to be a total asshat and probably the worst that football has to offer. I'm 100% sure that the reaction would have been absolutely different if it was, say, Cannavaro who was on the recieving end.

Materazzi does nothing but try to destroy football careers, he's one of the biggest punks in soccer. It doesn't make Zidane's action right, he should definately get a 10-match ban, if it wasn't for his retirment. Still, I think that your statement of 'had it been Cannavaro' is moot, because I don't think Cannavaro would have done that, nor would Zidane reacted that way with him.

[ISiddiqui]

Stupid internet connection... dola.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

It doesn't make Zidane's action right, he should definately get a 10-match ban

How many did Figo get for his headbutt? Though I really don't think he should get more than De Rossi did... it was far less viscious than that elbow.

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I can't read German, but that would be silly... instead the article may be saying (but almost just as silly) to take away Materazzi's WC medal for racist remarks.

No, that is certainly not what it is saying.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by moriarty

I'm all for stamping out racism, but that would be absolutely ridiculous. I think FIFA has the right (by their rules anyways) to do so, but they would never act upon it.

I think it's not going to happen, because clearly the evidence is pretty weak, but it would be a brilliant signal against racism.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

How many did Figo get for his headbutt? Though I really don't think he should get more than De Rossi did... it was far less viscious than that elbow.

The headbutt was less vicious than the elbow? Are you serious?

Zidane got 5 games last time he headbutted a player, so I'd guess slightly more than that.

Not that it makes any difference, since he has retired.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

I think it's not going to happen, because clearly the evidence is pretty weak, but it would be a brilliant signal against racism.

Yeah, but this is the same organization that treats monkey calls at African American players by (at most) making the team play in an empty stadium, and not even taking away a victory. There's no way they'd take away the Biggest victory for a team in four years.

Even then, as you said the evidence is pretty weak.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by moriarty

Yeah, but this is the same organization that treats monkey calls at African American players by (at most) making the team play in an empty stadium, and not even taking away a victory. There's no way they'd take away the Biggest victory for a team in four years.

I missed that. When was a stadium closed for the fans abusing African American players?

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

How many did Figo get for his headbutt? Though I really don't think he should get more than De Rossi did... it was far less viscious than that elbow.

Well, maybe a 10-match suspension is over the top, but where I come from, this kind of violence can get you a half year suspension. In league play, that would be something like 10 games now, and another big chuck with a following red card. Most of the time these cases are settled with a 4-game ban, though. In in international football it's usually half of the normal dose due to the lack of game days.

I think it's a bit different from an elbow incident, because they are more common (sadly), thus they footballing asociations already have a fixed penalty for it at 4 games.

Figo got nothing, simply because he already got a yellow card for it, meaning the FIFA representative on the field. Oh, I love how the FIFA handles that stuff...

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by Critch

I missed that. When was a stadium closed for the fans abusing African American players?

I'm not sure it ever was (and I didn't mean Arican American players at that, just black players in general) although they have played in empty stadiums for other infractions. Sorry, I wasn't real clear.

It just seems like that is FIFA's stiffest penalty they impose in some of the tournaments for the more egregious acts of fans (edit - like the Korea / Japan game or like they threatened after Ashley Cole was berated in Spain).

[Critch]

Originally Posted by moriarty

I'm not sure it ever was (and I didn't mean Arican American players at that, just black players in general) although they have played in empty stadiums for other infractions. Sorry, I wasn't real clear.

Ok, sorry. Thought there may have been something in a US qualifier in central America that I'd missed.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Critch

The headbutt was less vicious than the elbow? Are you serious?

Zidane got 5 games last time he headbutted a player, so I'd guess slightly more than that.

Not that it makes any difference, since he has retired.

Elbow to the face that injured a player and required stiches v. a headbutt to chest that the player was miraculously able to recover from once Zidane was off? I think so. You could argue intent I suppose, but the results were certainly worse with the elbow.

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by moriarty
I'm not sure it ever was (and I didn't mean Arican American players at that, just black players in general) although they have played in empty stadiums for other infractions. Sorry, I wasn't real clear.


Ok, sorry. Thought there may have been something in a US qualifier in central America that I'd missed

Im sure he meant when fans make monkey noises at Black europeans or Afrikans playing in europe.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Elbow to the face that injured a player and required stiches v. a headbutt to chest that the player was miraculously able to recover from once Zidane was off? I think so. You could argue intent I suppose, but the results were certainly worse with the elbow.

You think Materazzi was faking?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Critch

The headbutt was less vicious than the elbow? Are you serious?

Uh... YES! I can't even comprehend how anyone could say the headbutt was more viscous than the elbow! For God's sake man, Materazzi was fine a few seconds after the headbutt, but McBride was bleeding all over the place and need stiches to close that puppy up.

It's like JIMG saying he's going to vote for a liberal Democrat to say the headbutt was more vicious than the De Rossi elbow!!

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Critch

You think Materazzi was faking?

I don't think he was faking when he went down, because the act probably suprised him, more than anything. Maybe the wind knocked out of him, at worst.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Uh... YES! I can't even comprehend how anyone could say the headbutt was more viscous than the elbow! For God's sake man, Materazzi was fine a few seconds after the headbutt, but McBride was bleeding all over the place and need stiches to close that puppy up.

So what? If it doesn't bleed it isn't serious? Martial arts doesn't teach to hit the sternum/solar plexus because it doesn't hurt. They were both cheap shots by players who deserve to be super-smacked by FIFA.

Just to stir it up a bit Italian TV have got their own lipreader to have a look at what Zidane says, they claim he wished death to Materazzi's mother.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I don't think he was faking when he went down, because the act probably suprised him, more than anything. Maybe the wind knocked out of him, at worst.

Yeah, I mean, really, if anyone thinks Materazzi was really hurt by it, you are on crack!

Originally Posted by Critch

Just to stir it up a bit Italian TV have got their own lipreader to have a look at what Zidane says, they claim he wished death to Materazzi's mother.

Funny because isn't that what was rumored that Materazzi said about Zidane... hmmm, interesting coincidence by the Italian media!!

[Critch]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Funny because isn't that what was rumored that Materazzi said about Zidane... hmmm, interesting coincidence by the Italian media!!

There are very few things that haven't been rumored. Been through the full spectrum of insults with an expert willing to swear that's what Materazzi said. But still only two people know for sure.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, but isn't it interesting that Italian TV lipreader said that Zidane said something that the Italian lipreader for the BBC stated Materazzi said a day earlier? At least they could come up with something original if they were going to make shit up.

Then again, maybe Zidane was saying "Did you just wish death to my mother"? Then both Italian lipreaders would be somewhat right .

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Critch

So what? If it doesn't bleed it isn't serious? Martial arts doesn't teach to hit the sternum/solar plexus because it doesn't hurt. They were both cheap shots by players who deserve to be super-smacked by FIFA.

Just to stir it up a bit Italian TV have got their own lipreader to have a look at what Zidane says, they claim he wished death to Materazzi's mother.

No, if you are able to get up and walk away without requiring further medical attention, it's not serious.