Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

It's as if the writers really don't understand what makes a crowd work.

I dunno, they managed to find a way to get Snookie over (or at least avoid an epic trainwreck while putting her over).

[molson]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

The booking of the main event was just bizarre.

You've spent two months selling the entire show around the Rock's involvement in the main event, so you have to know that the crowd won't be into anything until he shows up. Nobody cares about the action, nobody buys the fake finish. Fine.

But then when he does show up, you get 30 seconds and then an immediate payoff? No tension, no suspense, just a quick sneak attack? It's as if the writers really don't understand what makes a crowd work.

Not to mention that they apparently just used the main event of Wrestlemania to set up a feud for the next PPV. Strange.

Ya, I definitely would have preferred Rock being out there the entire main event and being a general nuisance throughout (he was basically booked as part of the main event after all, and I agree that the match really didn't even "start" until he was out there), but I guarantee that if they did that everybody would be complaining that the Rock hogged the main event spotlight and that he wouldn't even let Miz/Cena have their match first.

And is the first time a heel retained in the final match at Mania? I think HHH might have done it once, I can't remember. I think Miz may have officially joined the "list of main eventers everybody thinks is the problem" group after this push. He's certainly the least talented of that group, so I think his shelf life is going to be a lot shorter than the others. Not sure it's time to put those fossils Cena (33 years old) and Orton (31 years old) out to pasture just yet. Taker and HHH are old and about to retire, but Edge says he wants to go another 5 years (I wonder if Miz will last that long), and Punk and Del Rio are also both in their early 30s (and as a bonus, are not yet overexposed - despite the desires by many to blow the whole load with those guys now.). And it only takes the right guy a year or two to be a mega-star, as we've seen over and over again. There will be main eventers in 2012 and 2013 we haven't heard of yet.

I really did think HHH was going to win with that tombstone, and I'm amazed and shocked he was able to make me think that. That match was the first on the show to really feel like wrestlemania. And I do have a guess that 'Taker wants to lose to somebody at Mania before he retires, and I don't think it's going to be an up-and-coming guy, but an established star that 'Taker respects (and I look forward to that match, because that will REALLY piss people off.)

Sweet Jesus did Cole/Lawler take a long time. It kind of looked like Austin was getting bored on the 18th "put Lawler's leg on the rope and stomp it" spot. That could have been a fun 5 minutes, if it had been trimmed down.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

You're rich!

And was Cole already back to the back by the time the GM made that announcement? I think we may have a GM reveal soon if that was the case...

[Toddzilla]

I was shocked - SHOCKED - at the pop the Miz got when he kicked out of Cena's finisher.

He's over, goddamit, and he's...

AWWWWEEEESOOOOMMMEEEE

[Comey]

Originally Posted by molson

And was Cole already back to the back by the time the GM made that announcement? I think we may have a GM reveal soon if that was the case...

I thought the same thing, but someone told me he was on the ramp when the announcement was made. I still think he's the GM...but I think someone's in cahoots with him.

Really, and I came to this conclusion last night...I think the GM should stay anonymous. This current GM can be both heel and face. It's flexible. It's a nuisance at times, but it has often worked. And it gives Cole a vehicle to be a total jackass, which is an added bonus.

Adding a face to the GM forces the fans to pick a side. In all honesty, the GM is perfect right now, in my view.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

I was shocked - SHOCKED - at the pop the Miz got when he kicked out of Cena's finisher.

He's over, goddamit, and he's...

AWWWWEEEESOOOOMMMEEEE

AWWWWEEEESOOOOMMMEEEE!

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

AWWWWEEEESOOOOMMMEEEE!

Worst. Champion. Ever.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Matthean

Worst. Champion. Ever.

wrong

[JonInMiddleGA]

LOL at Angle.

Today he Tweets various things commenting on the same things as last night's posts ... then posts that he just discovered that his Twitter was hacked & he didn't actually tweet most of it.

Naturally, after all, everyone who posts stupid shit & then realizes it isn't getting over was "hacked".

[molson]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

wrong

I was there that night, ringside. Syracuse, NY, 2000. It was the greatest night in the history of our sport.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Naturally, after all, everyone who posts stupid shit & then realizes it isn't getting over was "hacked".

So basically he stole that move from someone else.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

So basically he stole that move from someone else.

Earlier in the day, Ken Shamrock called ....

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by molson

I was there that night, ringside. Syracuse, NY, 2000. It was the greatest night in the history of our sport.

I could have went since that's where I live but decided against it, thank goodness.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Chubby

I could have went since that's where I live but decided against it, thank goodness.

It was horrible.

There were two pretty good RAWs during my Syracuse years though - 1997 had that pre-mania Hart/Psycho Sid steel cage title match where Austin was trying to help Hart, and Undertaker was trying to help Sid (because Austin/Hart and Taker/Sid was set for Mania and whoever ended up as champion by Mania would defend his title there). It was really a great setup for a match. Hart lost (meaning Hart/Austin would not be for the title at mania), then he freaked out, yelled about everything being bullshit, and shoved Vince to the ground (a big deal in '97).

Then in '99 (I think), was the post-Mania RAW where X-Pac returned, and he and the new age outlaws had just joined up with D/X. Austin came to the ring wearing a suit (teasing an allignment with Vince), but then gave Vince a punch to the balls, and threw his suit and shoes into the crowd. It was either that show, or the one before it, where RAW ended Nitro's rating winning streak.

It's amazing how well I remember all this considering how drunk I was through most of it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Here is a little Wrestlemania tidbit to wrap your heads around:

Snookie has more Wrestlemania wins than Jerry Lawler.

And as many PPV wins as Wade Barrett.

For those saying how the main event ended too quickly after Rock entered, they had to. The show ended with only like 2 minutes to spare. They went far too long in other matches and felt the need to add in their "comedy" bits that no one has ever found funny.

I will add that I loved the Miz's intro and entrance. Extremely well done.

[Matthean]

I just think the Miz being pushed is a perfect example of the lack of a true superstar to be pushed in the WWE right now. Stick him in the days of Stone Cold, The Rock, HHH, HBK and such and he's forever a mid carder. You can even go older school with Hogan, Savage, Steamboat, etc...He has a gimmick and it's being worked for all it can, but he still lacks mics skills and even his catch phrase is just kind of there to have one. As a talent, I would much rather watch people like CM Punk get pushes. Hell, him and Edge would be a huge match to get pop from both sides.

[RainMaker]

Miz is good for talk shows and such which is all Vince seems to care about these days. Guys can be shit in the ring and shit on the mic as long as they get a 5 second mention on Access Hollywood or on some MTV News segment.

It's why we get Snooki in a WM match. Why we sat through the monstrocity that was the celebrity GM. They act like the kid desperate for attention that jumps around screaming "LOOK AT ME!".

I'll add that I'm fine with where Miz is. The guy worked incredibly hard to get to where he is. And from what I've read, is one of the guys like Cena who will do anything you ask when it comes to the media. He is constantly giving TV/radio interviews and promoting the business. One thing that I picked up from the Cena documentary is how much shit he has to do. He's constantly promoting. There was a scene with him in a room by himself just calling radio station after radio station doing interviews to promote a local event.

[SirFozzie]

Am I the only one who'd love to see a skit (usually I'm a wrestling guy), ""WWE's Got Talent""

You have 30 seconds to impress Stone Cold.

You fail? He gives you a stunner.

You impress him? He gives you a beer.. THEN gives you the stunner, DTA!

[Noop]

The Rock vs. Cena being booked a year out is risky. Only good thing is I expect Cena not to be champion. So we have Undertaker vs. HHH and Cena vs. Rock.

I would imagine Orton walks in as champion against Miz, Punk or Barrett.

[Mota]

Geez, McMahon can't even book Wrestlemania the day before the show, let alone a full year from now. Talk about setting yourself up to fail. I guess that means we won't be seeing The Rock on TV for a while now.

This will be interesting to watch!

[SirFozzie]

Tough Enough thoughts:

Thoughts:

Ariane gone, no surprise. No passion for the biz, no knowledge of the biz, and crying to Stone Cold isn't going to win you any points.

Michelle actually projected passion and desire for the biz. That might keep her a week or two more then she deserves.. halfway through the episode I had her pegged for elimination, I was waiting for the Stone Cold explosion about her lying about being an 11 year pro.

Eric: If the RAW burial wasn't enough, to use a Heenanism: Million Dollar Potential: 10 Cent Brain.

Some very stupid people. They realized the house was well stocked with alcohol, which plays right into the producers hands as it causes silliness, drama and fills up time. But it does nothing for your chance that day in the challenge, and ends up pissing off the trainers?

((also, good point by my friend Mike, who works for various west coast/canadian indies as a manager or a ref: This is like the WWE in miniature. WWE folks have all the booze/drugs/sex available that anyone can take.. this is a bit of a question, "Can you handle the lifestyle that comes with being in the WWE?".. show up drunk, or can't work with others, you've failed that particular test))

Interesting bit about Miss USA with the padding, they made it seem like she had royally fucked things up.. and then pretty much dismiss it with "If you aint cheatin, you ain't tryin"

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Noop

The Rock vs. Cena being booked a year out is risky. Only good thing is I expect Cena not to be champion. So we have Undertaker vs. HHH and Cena vs. Rock.

I would imagine Orton walks in as champion against Miz, Punk or Barrett.

A lot can happen in a year. Barrett is basically a jobber these days so I doubt he's in the hunt. And I don't know if they'll do a Punk/Orton match again. I wouldn't be surprised to see Del Rio on Raw at some point either so he could be in the picture.

[Karlifornia]

I haven't been a wrestling watcher for about 6 years now, but I went to the Elimination Chamber PPV in Oakland, and watched Wrestlemania the other night at my friends house.

-CM Punk has a cult of personality that pretty much every other "top tier" superstar at this point lacks.

-Randy Orton is boring.

-The Michael Cole/Jerry Lawler match was terrible. I actually found Michael Cole to be quasi-entertaining, but if you're going to have The King do the job, then have him do the job. This ending was unsatisfying to me.

-Undertaker/HHH match was just weird, at least in terms of the booking. If Undertaker was really having health problems at the end, then I suppose that was the best they could have done. If I was doing the booking, I'd have had Undertaker pedigree HHH, then tombstone him from the top rope, resulting in a pin

-Cena's choir entrance was laughable to me, but I guess I'm not his target audience. Overt earnestness from faces seems hackneyed to me. There needs to be at least a hint of darkness. I also half expected Cena to come out in blackface. I suppose that's been kicked around by wrestling fans before, though.

-The Miz is weak as a top heel. He just doesn't make you hate him for any other reason than he's the top heel and you're supposed to hate him. Yeah, The Miz is arrogant....ok....is that all there is to him?

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Matthean

I just think the Miz being pushed is a perfect example of the lack of a true superstar to be pushed in the WWE right now. Stick him in the days of Stone Cold, The Rock, HHH, HBK and such and he's forever a mid carder. You can even go older school with Hogan, Savage, Steamboat, etc...He has a gimmick and it's being worked for all it can, but he still lacks mics skills and even his catch phrase is just kind of there to have one. As a talent, I would much rather watch people like CM Punk get pushes. Hell, him and Edge would be a huge match to get pop from both sides.

It just goes to show, not everyone can be AWEEEEESOOOOOOOME.

The Miz is the greatest WWE champion in WWE history.

[Comey]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

-Cena's choir entrance was laughable to me, but I guess I'm not his target audience. Overt earnestness from faces seems hackneyed to me. There needs to be at least a hint of darkness. I also half expected Cena to come out in blackface. I suppose that's been kicked around by wrestling fans before, though.

It's not him anymore. His audience is mostly kids. Of course, he backs it up; he's one of only four people who have granted 200 Make-a-Wishes (including 30 alone at Wrestlemania). But his audience, and the PG atmosphere, have him as the overly good guy.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

-The Miz is weak as a top heel. He just doesn't make you hate him for any other reason than he's the top heel and you're supposed to hate him. Yeah, The Miz is arrogant....ok....is that all there is to him?

That's pretty much every heel at this point. They aren't creative enough to build good characters anymore. As you mentioned, Punk is the best they have but will likely never get to the top because he isn't going to go on Conan or whatever else Vince cares about these days (which seems to be anything but putting on a good wrestling product).

[Terps]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Tough Enough thoughts:

Thoughts:

Ariane gone, no surprise. No passion for the biz, no knowledge of the biz, and crying to Stone Cold isn't going to win you any points.

She's already signed a WWE developmental deal and will go to FCW. Which makes this show as pointless as NXT.

[Toddzilla]

Hard to believe, in retrospect, just how horribly the WWE botched Nexus.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That's pretty much every heel at this point. They aren't creative enough to build good characters anymore. As you mentioned, Punk is the best they have but will likely never get to the top because he isn't going to go on Conan or whatever else Vince cares about these days (which seems to be anything but putting on a good wrestling product).

Y'know Punk was actually one of the guys sent over to do Ghost Hunters, even before Miz got a crack at it, as have Elijah Burke & Kofi Kingston.

[molson]

I remember 10 pages ago the problem was Miz wouldn't get a "real" run on top as champion (and that Cena and Orton hoarded the top stops), now that he has that, the problem has shifted to he's the wrong guy for it? I predicted that the those same people would turn on him as soon as he was established (I just didn't think it would happen this quickly).

Traditionally, good WWE business = catchphrases. The New Age Outlaws were not compelling characters. Neither was the Rock for that matter. I know a lot of America was facinated by crotch chops and HBK's ass, but personally, I turned the channel when that stuff was on. I did love the '97 Hart/Austin stuff, but even that was before WWE got big (they do better business now then they did through the mid-90s up to about '98). But part of the reason '97 worked so well is that they were coming off years and years of flat, family-friendly, simple programming. I think they're trying to set something like that up again in the future. "Big changes" in wrestling are only compelling after a period of stabilty (something Vince Russo never understood - he tried to have "big change" moments on every show, and after a while, nobody cared anymore, that was just the norm, and then you're REALLY screwed because there's nowhere to go from there). It's why Russo brought a great energy/excitement to late 96/97, and has been useless ever since. I tend to think that most armchair bookers on the internet who think they know everything would have a similar experience if put in Russo's shoes (because that's all Russo was, an armchair smart fan who got a crazy break in a down time in the industry).

Punk's had some great main event storylines and some world title runs, but I think he's great where he is. If you make him the top heel, then his clock of relevancy starts. It's kind of a like baseball players' options. Nobody's immune to that, not even Hogan. (And really, who the hell thought, maybe 5 years ago, that CM Punk would be one of the top 3 or so heels in the company and would have multiple title runs). I think the response to that prediction would have been, "no way, Vince doesn't push guys he didn't create", and "Vince only pushes hosses." The guy's going to be around 10+ years, he can't spend that entire time as the #1 heel. But he's getting great stuff to do. One of my favorite heel turns in the past 10+ years was Punk trying to justify why it was OK for him, as a face, to cash in the money in the bank v. an injured champion Jeff Hardy. The fans weren't buying it, so he eventually said "screw them", and that was that. The whole thing took about 6 weeks. That was a level of character development you never had in the "glory years" of the attitude era.

[RainMaker]

I don't have a problem with Miz winning. I was hoping that either ADR or Miz would get a win at WM. It definitely cements him as a main event talent now and I thought the intro they had for him was the best they've put together in a long time. My only gripe with the match was that it was poorly planned. The crowd was dead because they knew that nothing was going to really happen till The Rock came out. And no one bought the double count-out. They probably should have had Rock come out at the beginning and stand ringside (or do commentary).

And I think Punk is vastly underated and should be used as much as possible. Everything from his mic work to facial expressions in the ring are great.

[jbergey22]

I like the way Molson thinks. He has great long term planning recognition. Too many people in these forums just seem to hate everything the WWE does without providing any explanation other than Cena isnt a good wrestler "blah, blah, blah."

Like JR says "The only thing that matters to Vince McMahon is having a butt in every seat." As long the WWE remains as popular as it is I would have a hard time seeing them going away from what has made them what they are.

[RainMaker]

It's not popular though. Ratings have tanked, buyrates are in the shitter. It's about as unpopular as it's ever been.

[molson]

Buyrates will continue to decline because it's easier and easier to just steal these shows off of the internet. The WWE has had to adjust, and obviously international tours and tv deals have been where they've done that. Profit wise, they're actually coming off their two best years since the attitude era (looking for the table where I saw that info). Sure, that's all international expansion, and there's only so far they can keep growing from that alone. But buyrates can't be a part of their long-term revenue plans. And their domestic RAW ratings are about the same as they have always been (except that they're much lower than they were during the attitude era, and much higher then they were before that, in RAWs early years in the mid-90s.)

Edit, here it is from the wrestling observer (I think that's a reliable source)

1994-1995: $ 87,352,000 ($ 4,431,000 deficit)

1995-1996: $ 85,815,000 ($ 3,319,000 profit)

1996-1997: $ 81,863,000 ($ 6,505,000 deficit)

1997-1998: $ 126,231,000 ($ 8,446,000 profit)

1998-1999: $ 251,474,000 ($ 56,030,000 profit)

1999-2000: $ 373,100,000 ($ 68,973,000 profit)

2000-2001: $ 456,043,000 ($ 15,987,000 profit)

2001-2002: $ 409,622,000 ($ 42,233,000 profit)

2002-2003: $ 374,364,000 ($ 19,455,000 deficit)

2003-2004: $ 374,909,000 ($ 48,192,000 profit)

2004-2005: $ 366,431,000 ($ 39,147,000 profit)

2005-2006: $ 400,051,000 ($ 47,047,000 profit)

2006: $ 262,937,000 ($ 31,617,000 profit)

2007: $ 485,655,000 ($ 52,137,000 profit)

2008: $ 526,457,000 ($ 45,416,000 profit)

2009: $ 475,161,000 ($ 50,303,000 profit)

2010: $ 477,655,000 ($ 53,452,000 profit)

(Just for perspective - WCW lost $60 million in 2000. WWE is a very different company in how it runs things).

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's not popular though. Ratings have tanked, buyrates are in the shitter. It's about as unpopular as it's ever been.

Ever been?

I will give you a chance to correct yourself on that before I go any further.

[Matthean]

Considering they are in a run of four years of over 45 mill in profits and they have never done that even in the peak years then it's tough to say they are hurting at all.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Buyrates will continue to decline because it's easier and easier to just steal these shows off of the internet. The WWE has had to adjust, and obviously international tours and tv deals have been where they've done that. Profit wise, they're actually coming off their two best years since the attitude era (looking for the table where I saw that info). Sure, that's all international expansion, and there's only so far they can keep growing from that alone. But buyrates can't be a part of their long-term revenue plans. And their domestic RAW ratings are about the same as they have always been (except that they're much lower than they were during the attitude era, and much higher then they were before that, in RAWs early years in the mid-90s.)

Except that hasn't happened to UFC. Their buyrates have gone up and up. So stealing shows hasn't had that kind of an impact on similar events.

I'm not arguing profits at all. WWE does a much better job of monetizing their product than they did in the past. They sell a ton of merchandise, DVDs, and licenses. They've been able to make up for the huge drops in other areas. But I still wonder if that the well on some of those things eventually runs dry. There are only so many HBK matches you can put on a DVD and John Cena t-shirts a kid needs.

[SirFozzie]

It's not piracy, it's the fact that they are A) Oversaturating the PPV market (they're down from 14-15 previously, but still way too many), B) Their on demand service is anemic and needs to be buffed up, and C)They've given away so many main events that they don't have any reason to order the PPV, because we've seen them on tv

UFC doesn't have that problem, they keep the supply high, and they don't give away their key fights.

[molson]

UFC is impacted by piracy like everyone else (and the UFC has actually been much more aggressive in fighting piracy than the WWE has), they're just still growing, getting new fans all the time, they haven't reached their saturation point. The WWE domestic audience if flat. (They're correctly focusing on kids now because unlike with MMA, people generally don't become wrestling fans in adulthood). Both companies would get more buys if everyone didn't have the option to get the same show for free. I don't see how anyone can debate that. And PPV buys are a pretty poor indicator of how popular or profitable something is, which was my point (Especially in the WWE's case, since they no longer rely on PPV revenue as much as they once did for growth). If PPV revenue, TV ratings, and profits were declining at the same rate, it'd be another story. But for the WWE - it's just PPV that's down.

WWE could definitely improve their buys some, but PPV is not going to be a huge growth area for them no matter what they do. (UFC shouldn't be banking their future growth on PPV either)

Edit: Dana White would disagree with the sentiment that piracy isn't an issue for his company - Vince would be smart to take Dana's lead about offering better on-demand options too - but even that is rally a response to piracy:

Dana White Talks Online Piracy: “We’re Fighting It Hard” | MMAWeekly.com

[Suicane75]

There is a major difference between not understanding how the product works and not enjoying it. Vince is clearly not a sane man and the very fact that the booking for Wrestlemania was being rewritten all weekend tells you just about everything you need to know.

The company is still profitable yes, but the trend is downward and all the signs are there for real problems in the future. Titles mean nothing. Wins and loses mean nothing. You can only do that for so long before people stop giving a shit.

WCW went from being the most profitable organization in the world to out of business in less than 5 years. It isn't like the foundation can't crumble just like that.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by molson

I remember 10 pages ago the problem was Miz wouldn't get a "real" run on top as champion (and that Cena and Orton hoarded the top stops), now that he has that, the problem has shifted to he's the wrong guy for it? I predicted that the those same people would turn on him as soon as he was established (I just didn't think it would happen this quickly).

Just because he's had a long title reign (by WWE standards), doesn't mean it has been a "real" run. Who has he beaten? Pretty much every win he has gotten is because his opponent "slipped on a banana peel" and then got the fluke pin. Just look at Wrestlemania. He beat John Cena. But he didn't, really. The Rock did. He was just there to pin him. He gained nothing from this win in the eyes of the fans.

Look at the Jerry Lawler match. The guy is 62 years old, and it took Alex Riley and Michael Cole's interference to help the champ beat an announcer.

But in my mind the WORST thing is how his opponents react to losing. Jerry Lawler doesn't really care, he only cares about Michael Cole. John Cena doesn't even mention not getting the title. He's back on Raw the next day cracking jokes. Obviously beating the Miz wasn't too important to him.

If you're going to be the cowardly heel as he is, the faces have to be CRAZY because they can't pin him. They go nuts, they destroy the locker room. They petition for rematches. And he somehow comes out with the title in the end, over and over. But if the wrestlers show they don't care ... neither will the fans. And I think that's the Miz's #1 obstacle here.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

There is a major difference between not understanding how the product works and not enjoying it. Vince is clearly not a sane man and the very fact that the booking for Wrestlemania was being rewritten all weekend tells you just about everything you need to know.

The company is still profitable yes, but the trend is downward and all the signs are there for real problems in the future. Titles mean nothing. Wins and loses mean nothing. You can only do that for so long before people stop giving a shit.

+1

They have been taking the WRESTLING out of the WWE for years now. They are ashamed of their own product apparently. But the trend is that as the WWE has positioned themselves as a variety show, the PPV buyrates have dropped. That's because wins and losses and titles don't matter.

And if you're comparing yourself to Lost or an entertainment show vs. a sporting show, think about the PPV ramnifications. Would you pay $65 dollars (Wrestlemania in HD) to see the final episode of Lost? Would you pay $45 once a month to follow NCIS or whatever show is on? I doubt it.

People pay to see feuds and matches. If the WWE downplays the importants of results and individual matches, the PPV business drops.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

But in my mind the WORST thing is how his opponents react to losing. Jerry Lawler doesn't really care, he only cares about Michael Cole.

I'd probably argue that this actually does make sense, that the Lawler/Cole thing was personal & personal can indeed outweigh everything.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Mota

Would you pay $65 dollars (Wrestlemania in HD) to see the final episode of Lost?.

Given the popularity of Lost and the hype of the final episode, if putting TV series on PPV were the norm, the final episode of Lost would have broken every PPV record by light-years. Bad Example

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mota

+1

They have been taking the WRESTLING out of the WWE for years now. They are ashamed of their own product apparently. But the trend is that as the WWE has positioned themselves as a variety show, the PPV buyrates have dropped. That's because wins and losses and titles don't matter.

You sound like Verne Gagne.

Wrestling is not the future - it will survive in smaller arenas, but in an MMA world, why are people going to care about fake competition and fake titles taken super seriously? WWE is intentionally focussing on what makes it different from MMA.

It might not be your preference, and I get that - it's not a lot of people's preference, and there's ROH and other organizations if you prefer a more wrestling-based product. And I always have to point out too - exactly which era in WWE's history are you remembering fondly where there was all this wrestling and dominant heel champions who didn't need help to win? I must have completely missed that era (Even the reign of terror of HHH, which people on the internet HATED, involved sledgehammars and constant outside interference from HHHs various stables.) Watch an episode from 1998 (the most profitable time for the WWE) - There's about 4-5 matches that last 2-4 minutes each, and the rest is all talking, Mark Henry getting oral sex from a transvestive, HBK humping something, and the Godfather's Hos dancing around the ring. When you did have a longer main event match, it was done in the "WWF main event style" of the era - interference, weapons, tables, dramatic twists and turns, guest referees - certainly not a lot of stepover toeholds.) THAT'S the kind of pro wrestling that makes big money. If you grew up on WWE in the 80s, you should still be in shock about how much wrestling is featured in that organization now. Go watch wrestlemania 2 and try to find the wrestling. People talk like their profits will explode if we get Bryan Danielson v. CM Punk for 60 minutes every week. But you know what, they did that match in ROH for years. That doesn't draw mainstream, million-dollar company kind of money.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

WCW went from being the most profitable organization in the world to out of business in less than 5 years. It isn't like the foundation can't crumble just like that.

Their collapse was simple and predictable. They had ridiculous talent contract committments that could never be sustained over time (they had something like 200+ people on the roster at one point, and many people making millions to sit at home and do nothing). Their collapse wasn't because of wookrate or flawed character development. They wouldn't have been saved by more wrestling on the show, or by taking the titles more seriously.

On this wrestling message board I go to, every week there's some guy starting a thread speculating about whether WWE is going to go under soon (usually based on something like they don't like how the U.S. title is booked). There's plenty of things that could cause WWE to collapse, but that's not one of them. Nor is failing to book to the specific preferences of the bitter angry group of adult males who openly despise their product but probably don't generate a lot of revenue for them anyway (and who keep watching every week because its fun to critique and think about how differently they would do things).

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Mota

Just because he's had a long title reign (by WWE standards), doesn't mean it has been a "real" run. Who has he beaten? Pretty much every win he has gotten is because his opponent "slipped on a banana peel" and then got the fluke pin. Just look at Wrestlemania. He beat John Cena. But he didn't, really. The Rock did. He was just there to pin him. He gained nothing from this win in the eyes of the fans.

Look at the Jerry Lawler match. The guy is 62 years old, and it took Alex Riley and Michael Cole's interference to help the champ beat an announcer.

But in my mind the WORST thing is how his opponents react to losing. Jerry Lawler doesn't really care, he only cares about Michael Cole. John Cena doesn't even mention not getting the title. He's back on Raw the next day cracking jokes. Obviously beating the Miz wasn't too important to him.

If you're going to be the cowardly heel as he is, the faces have to be CRAZY because they can't pin him. They go nuts, they destroy the locker room. They petition for rematches. And he somehow comes out with the title in the end, over and over. But if the wrestlers show they don't care ... neither will the fans. And I think that's the Miz's #1 obstacle here.

Sounds exactly like the ultra vulnerable Flair run from say 83-92 in NWA/WCW

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by molson

You sound like Verne Gagne.

Wrestling is not the future - it will survive in smaller arenas, but in an MMA world, why are people going to care about fake competition and fake titles taken super seriously? WWE is intentionally focussing on what makes it different from MMA.

So the business plan is to drive off their core and most sponser friendly audience in exchange for.........?

What a horrible way to look at things. We can't survive being good at what's drawn money for over a century. People have always known it's fake, it has nothing to do with fake vs real, it has to do with making people want to see something. People wanted to see Lawler kill Cole, people wanted to see The Rock kill John Cena. 70,000 people jumped out of their seats when HHH tombstoned Undertaker because they thought....wait for it.......that he was going to BEAT him.

Originally Posted by molson

When you did have a longer main event match, it was done in the "WWF main event style" of the era - interference, weapons, tables, dramatic twists and turns, guest referees - certainly not a lot of stepover toeholds.) THAT'S the kind of pro wrestling that makes big money.

Really? Cause regional promoters made crazy money for decades doing it another way. Flair made crazy money doing it another way. Hogan made insane money doing it yet another way. And in the end it all came down to people caring about who might win and who might lose. Styles come and go and come around again, it isn't about styles. The constant is caring about the finish.

Originally Posted by molson

If you grew up on WWE in the 80s, you should still be in shock about how much wrestling is featured in that organization now. Go watch wrestlemania 2 and try to find the wrestling. People talk like their profits will explode if we get Bryan Danielson v. CM Punk for 60 minutes every week. But you know what, they did that match in ROH for years. That doesn't draw mainstream, million-dollar company kind of money.

See, your takin an adverse reaction to what are clearly ridiculous memes and unfunny jokes and bad writing & storytelling and creating some sort of strawman. "You wanna see 100 minutes matches go watch flippy floppy Dragon Gate, grrrrrrr."

That's not what I or most people are asking for although I guarantee in a one hour match they could tell a better story than a WWE writer could in 3 months. But that's neither here nor there. The fact of the matter is that my group of 6 die hard wrestling fans do get more excited about watching a ROH IPPV than just about every WWE PPV. And our once die hard group of 6 dwindles to about 3 for the lesser shows because we just can't be assed to even spend $7 or 8 some months to watch shit just for the sake of watching shit.

Originally Posted by molson

Their collapse was simple and predictable. They had ridiculous talent contract committments that could never be sustained over time (they had something like 200+ people on the roster at one point, and many people making millions to sit at home and do nothing). Their collapse wasn't because of wookrate or flawed character development. They wouldn't have been saved by more wrestling on the show, or by taking the titles more seriously.

You're simply wrong again. Their payroll was absurd yes, but WCW ended because Jamie Kelner didn't want it on his station, pure and simple.

But moving that point aside, let me ask you this. What exactly drove away so many people from WCW in those 5 years? Did people think about tuning in and say to themselves "Kevin Nash makes 10 Million dollars a year, I don't wanna watch him". Or did they say "Jesus Christ, these storylines and matches suck, why am I bothering to watch this shit"?

And my final point. I'm not saying what they're attempting to do will not work. As a person with an IQ over 90 I don't understand how it will or is supposed to work, but i'm not saying it wont. What i'm saying is you have a core audience that you're TRYING to drive off, in the hopes of building another core audience, while much of the evidence suggests that you arn't doing very well at it.

At some point these kids they're targeting will look at Cena and say, "damn man, he's really not very cool is he?" And what the fuck will they be left with then?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

What a horrible way to look at things. We can't survive being good at what's drawn money for over a century. People have always known it's fake, it has nothing to do with fake vs real, it has to do with making people want to see something. People wanted to see Lawler kill Cole, people wanted to see The Rock kill John Cena. 70,000 people jumped out of their seats when HHH tombstoned Undertaker because they thought....wait for it.......that he was going to BEAT him.

No, it's called evolving. The same thing record companies are failing horribly at. The same reason Verne Gagne went out of business. And the death of kayfabe actually was a pretty big thing that the companies had to adapt to.

A lot has remained the same, of course - I don't think 2010 and 2011 are so dramatically different than prior years (what were your favorite WWE years, i.e., when were they doing what you think they should be doing now?)

Originally Posted by Suicane75

See, your takin an adverse reaction to what are clearly ridiculous memes and unfunny jokes and bad writing & storytelling and creating some sort of strawman. "You wanna see 100 minutes matches go watch flippy floppy Dragon Gate, grrrrrrr."

I didn't mean to express it like that - I've watched everything, I just have my own preferences like everyone else. I can appreciate ROH but not have it be must-see TV for me personally every week. And MMA has really replaced my desire for more serious booking/scripted competition in pro wrestling.

Originally Posted by Suicane75

The fact of the matter is that my group of 6 die hard wrestling fans do get more excited about watching a ROH IPPV than just about every WWE PPV.

So you're a bigger ROH fan than WWE fan. OK. There's some amount of people like you, but you're not a group that's relevant to the WWE's financial future. (How many John Cena shirts has that group purchased - and how many would they purhcase if Cena's character had more depth)?

Originally Posted by Suicane75

You're simply wrong again. Their payroll was absurd yes, but WCW ended because Jamie Kelner didn't want it on his station, pure and simple.

But moving that point aside, let me ask you this. What exactly drove away so many people from WCW in those 5 years? Did people think about tuning in and say to themselves "Kevin Nash makes 10 Million dollars a year, I don't wanna watch him". Or did they say "Jesus Christ, these storylines and matches suck, why am I bothering to watch this shit"?

And my final point. I'm not saying what they're attempting to do will not work. As a person with an IQ over 90 I don't understand how it will or is supposed to work, but i'm not saying it wont. What i'm saying is you have a core audience that you're TRYING to drive off, in the hopes of building another core audience, while much of the evidence suggests that you arn't doing very well at it.

At some point these kids they're targeting will look at Cena and say, "damn man, he's really not very cool is he?" And what the fuck will they be left with then?

If WCW was profitable, Jamie Kelner may still not have wanted it, but it would still be in business today in some capacity. (And even if Kelner did want it - it wasn't going to survive losing $60 million a year). They would have gotten through the down times. And it would have been worth more than the $3 million Vince paid for it.

People left WCW - but people also left WWE since the peak years. Wrestling was fad thing for many, many people. Sure, more people left WCW because it was worse than WWF at that time. (And personally, I think WWE in 2011 is a million times better than WCW in 2000, and I don't think that's some fringe opinion. If that's the comparison you're trying to make, you've completely lost me.)

If you're just saying WWE could be better, and that they could be financially better, nobody, including the WWE, could disagree with that. I'm just not seeing these terrible depths in the product, I don't remember this prior mythical era when they had amazing buyrates based on clean finishes, and taking the titles super-seriously. How many years, out of the last 25 (or however long you've been watching), has the WWE produced the product that you think they should produce? If it's not many years (or any years), I might take a wild guess that you're just not a WWE fan, which is fine. It's like someone saying SNL isn't serious enough.

[molson]

And I don't think you can really, fairly, look back at the history of professional wrestling, all the way back to the territory days, back to when wrestling results were reported in the sports page, and come to the conclusion that Vince McMahon is some kind of crazy person that doesn't know what he's doing. Vince might be the only consistent success story in an industry with dozens upon dozens of spectaular failures.

I mean really - why isn't anyone putting out this amazing product that people on the internet imagine, with heels beating megasupertar faces clean, and lots of solid wrestling, and portraying serious fictional competition over belts, and getting rid of all sillyness like celebrities and comedy bits, etc., and making billions of dollars and getting insane buyrates for it? The only way that's really worked, long-term, is Vince's way. That certainly doesn't mean that's the "best way" for any one particular person's creative preferences, and what they like to watch on TV - but that is not the WWE's concern at all.