If Trump Loses In November, What Do You Think Happens Next

[BYU 14]

We already knew this, but it is just baffling that Republicans, as a whole, are so fucking weak they put the ego of a single, broken man above the best interests of 331 million.

Republican Arizona official says GOP legislator admitted there was 'nothing to' election fraud allegations

[PilotMan]

Third police officer who responded to Jan. 6 attack dies by suicide | TheHill

If he'd only had a "true American and Freedom" level of mental health he'd have survived.

This is where Jon castigates the 'heroes' right?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Third police officer who responded to Jan. 6 attack dies by suicide | TheHill

If he'd only had a "true American and Freedom" level of mental health he'd have survived.

This is where Jon castigates the 'heroes' right?

The hoops people are going to jump through to claim the two aren't connected will be disgusting.

[cartman]

NEW Maricopa County Board chair to Senate GOP: ‘Little time to entertain adventure in never-never land.’ Board rejects most of Senate subpoena shortly before 1pm deadline. pic.twitter.com/JdsgUfj46V

— Brahm Resnik (@brahmresnik) August 2, 2021

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I also think it's bigger than the US. Extremism is on the rise in many 'western' nations. Trump came along at the right ... or rather wrong ... time to make it more obvious and blatant here, but we're not alone in the problems we're having. The world will look much different in the Age of China. What exactly that entails I don't know, but 'democracy' as it was known in the second half of the 20th century probably doesn't come along for the ride.

The way the US is going with the mainstreaming of racist ideology by the right, martyrdom of criminals, dogmatic use of propaganda that encourages Christian nationalism to politically define good v. evil, they are the biggest threat to the American public. They may not be the widespread threat today, but it sure seems like they are hell bent on continuing to push that direction until something breaks.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by cartman

NEW Maricopa County Board chair to Senate GOP: ‘Little time to entertain adventure in never-never land.’ Board rejects most of Senate subpoena shortly before 1pm deadline. pic.twitter.com/JdsgUfj46V

— Brahm Resnik (@brahmresnik) August 2, 2021

That letter is so gangster

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Lathum

That letter is so gangster

FYI: he was elected as a Republican: Jack Sellers - Ballotpedia

SI

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

The way the US is going with the mainstreaming of racist ideology by the right, martyrdom of criminals, dogmatic use of propaganda that encourages Christian nationalism to politically define good v. evil, they are the biggest threat to the American public.

Suffice to say that I don't see some of this the way you do. There's quite a bit of dogmatic good vs. evil, mainstreaming milder racist ideology, etc. that comes from the left, including on this board, that is very misplaced as well (no this isn't both sides-ism before someone says it, the left hasn't been involved in undermining elections to remotely the same degree).

Nearly as large a problem IMO is that strong majorities of Americans of virtually all political stripes have opinions they are afraid to state publicly. Until we get past that, there is no unification possible. We can't find common cause when we don't, collectively, feel free to say what we think. Instead, we'll just keep projecting false versions of ourselves that we think our socially acceptable.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Third police officer who responded to Jan. 6 attack dies by suicide | TheHill

If he'd only had a "true American and Freedom" level of mental health he'd have survived.

This is where Jon castigates the 'heroes' right?

And now the 4th officer. What a failure to support these officers on so many levels.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Suffice to say that I don't see some of this the way you do. There's quite a bit of dogmatic good vs. evil, mainstreaming milder racist ideology, etc. that comes from the left, including on this board, that is very misplaced as well (no this isn't both sides-ism before someone says it, the left hasn't been involved in undermining elections to remotely the same degree).

Nearly as large a problem IMO is that strong majorities of Americans of virtually all political stripes have opinions they are afraid to state publicly. Until we get past that, there is no unification possible. We can't find common cause when we don't, collectively, feel free to say what we think. Instead, we'll just keep projecting false versions of ourselves that we think our socially acceptable.

White man's burden Lloyd my man, white man's burden.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Suffice to say that I don't see some of this the way you do. There's quite a bit of dogmatic good vs. evil, mainstreaming milder racist ideology, etc. that comes from the left, including on this board, that is very misplaced as well (no this isn't both sides-ism before someone says it, the left hasn't been involved in undermining elections to remotely the same degree).

Nearly as large a problem IMO is that strong majorities of Americans of virtually all political stripes have opinions they are afraid to state publicly. Until we get past that, there is no unification possible. We can't find common cause when we don't, collectively, feel free to say what we think. Instead, we'll just keep projecting false versions of ourselves that we think our socially acceptable.

So there is no belief that should be socially unacceptable?

[Ghost Econ]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

And now the 4th officer. What a failure to support these officers on so many levels.

Pssh, call me when it's actually worse than Benghazi.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Nearly as large a problem IMO is that strong majorities of Americans of virtually all political stripes have opinions they are afraid to state publicly.

If they are afraid to state them publicly perhaps they should rethink their stances?

I have never been embarrassed to want healthcare for all, equal rights, access to quality education, welcoming to immigrants, etc...

[Mota]

Originally Posted by Lathum

If they are afraid to state them publicly perhaps they should rethink their stances?

I have never been embarrassed to want healthcare for all, equal rights, access to quality education, welcoming to immigrants, etc...

I think with that statement, you painted the left as the good guys, and anybody that strays outside of that is evil.

Maybe you're concerned that increasing immigration without increasing the housing supply might cause housing prices to skyrocket. But you can't say anything because you're immediately branded as an anti-immigration racist.

So that's probably why they might not be anxious to speak out.

I know that there are some right wing people that are racist and selfish people. But I'm sure there are far more that are more concerned about their taxes increasing while salaries are stagnating, or worried about the government debt their kids will inherit, but don't say anything as they don't want to get bracketed as a nazi.

FYI, I'm Canadian, so it's not a 1:1 comparison, but we have similar things happening up here, but as a country we do skew far more to the left.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Mota

I think with that statement, you painted the left as the good guys, and anybody that strays outside of that is evil.

Maybe you're concerned that increasing immigration without increasing the housing supply might cause housing prices to skyrocket. But you can't say anything because you're immediately branded as an anti-immigration racist.

So that's probably why they might not be anxious to speak out.

I know that there are some right wing people that are racist and selfish people. But I'm sure there are far more that are more concerned about their taxes increasing while salaries are stagnating, or worried about the government debt their kids will inherit, but don't say anything as they don't want to get bracketed as a nazi.

FYI, I'm Canadian, so it's not a 1:1 comparison, but we have similar things happening up here, but as a country we do skew far more to the left.

I'm certain millions & millions of people like that do exist, but even those hypothetical concerns are based around the indirect results of Republican policies, rather than the policies themselves. Republican officials have certainly shown a desire to lower taxes and immigration, but filling in the blanks beyond that with trickle-down community welfare (let alone concerns like fair wages and housing, that Republicans actively work against) is rationalization, wishful thinking and/or denial.

[JPhillips]

There are a lot of Republicans that want lower taxes and lower government spending, but very few that actually are willing to do anything to reduce the deficit. It's almost exclusively a club to beat on Democrats when they propose new spending.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Suffice to say that I don't see some of this the way you do. There's quite a bit of dogmatic good vs. evil, mainstreaming milder racist ideology, etc. that comes from the left, including on this board, that is very misplaced as well (no this isn't both sides-ism before someone says it, the left hasn't been involved in undermining elections to remotely the same degree).

Nearly as large a problem IMO is that strong majorities of Americans of virtually all political stripes have opinions they are afraid to state publicly. Until we get past that, there is no unification possible. We can't find common cause when we don't, collectively, feel free to say what we think. Instead, we'll just keep projecting false versions of ourselves that we think our socially acceptable.

It's interesting though that your first instinct is defend the right, blame the left even all the historical data says the threat is very unevenly weighted to the right

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mota

But I'm sure there are far more that are more concerned about their taxes increasing while salaries are stagnating, or worried about the government debt their kids will inherit, but don't say anything as they don't want to get bracketed as a nazi.

When was the last time the Democrats proposed raising taxes on most of the public? When was the last time the Republicans cared about the deficit while in power?

If those are issues you care about, why would you be a Republican?

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

There are a lot of Republicans that want lower taxes and lower government spending, but very few that actually are willing to do anything to reduce the deficit. It's almost exclusively a club to beat on Democrats when they propose new spending.

Yeah. Maybe I'm wrong but I think the great majority of Republican voters are simply motivated by lower taxes. I don't really know why both sides demand it be more complicated than that. I mean, sure I would define that as 'selfish', but plenty of Dems vote for selfish reasons too, and it's certainly better than voting out of spite, which seems to be the deciding factor for many folks. Ironically, the rationalizations most people will invent to avoid that label are far more puzzling/offensive than saying they're voting for their own interests.

[Lathum]

I don't think most republicans could give a rip about the deficit, and their silence about it when the right has control validates that.

I think a huge number of republicans are single issue voters such as abortion, guns, religion, etc...

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

If they are afraid to state them publicly perhaps they should rethink their stances?

I have never been embarrassed to want healthcare for all, equal rights, access to quality education, welcoming to immigrants, etc...

I think it's two-fold. How they want to be perceived and how they perceive themselves.

There are a lot of people on the left who will pay lip service to progressive issues. But the minute affordable housing proposals pop up in their nice white suburb, they're against it. They can't say "hey we don't want poor people moving into our neighborhood", so they'll come up with some creative excuses as to why it can't happen (just open the Nextdoor app and see). This isn't just to protect themselves from criticism, but also because deep down they want to believe they are a good person.

The Republican Party has shifted about as close as you can get to fascism these days. But most don't want to say or believe they are a fascist. So they support fascism under the guise of protecting us from a cabal of pedophiles or election fraud.

I'd argue he's underselling how many people are afraid to admit what their real beliefs are. I'd argue most people have something in their belief system that they either don't want others to know or don't want to believe about themselves.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Yeah. Maybe I'm wrong but I think the great majority of Republican voters are simply motivated by lower taxes.

The ultimate, selfish, self serving, entitled group that wants everything for nothing.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

When was the last time the Democrats proposed raising taxes on most of the public? When was the last time the Republicans cared about the deficit while in power?

If those are issues you care about, why would you be a Republican?

If I was American I would be a Democrat, but I just wanted to try and understand who a typical Republican is, and what is important to them. I know my dad is pro-Trump and it drives me nuts, but I still try to listen to what he is saying.

It's when both sides stop listening to each other altogether that we end up in this position.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Mota

If I was American I would be a Democrat, but I just wanted to try and understand who a typical Republican is, and what is important to them. I know my dad is pro-Trump and it drives me nuts, but I still try to listen to what he is saying.

It's when both sides stop listening to each other altogether that we end up in this position.

I don't think there is a typical republican right now. The party has the QANONs, the White Supremacists, the Evangelicals, the Trumpers, the Reagan Republicans, and countless smaller groups. A lot of these groups don't even like each other, hate the other's politics, but rationalize voting with the others because they hate the left as much or more than they hate each other while others cherry pick a single issue or two and are willing to align with people they can't stomach over those 1 or 2 issues that probably aren't changing much no matter who is in office.

[molson]

I think a lot of Republicans are one or two-issue voters. They're never going to vote for Democrat because of their views on abortion and/or immigration. (Even though the actual differences in immigration views don't survive a lot of scrutiny). I think "build the wall" got Trump elected more than anything else.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Mota

If I was American I would be a Democrat, but I just wanted to try and understand who a typical Republican is, and what is important to them. I know my dad is pro-Trump and it drives me nuts, but I still try to listen to what he is saying.

It's when both sides stop listening to each other altogether that we end up in this position.

The thing is, what we know about Trump now, and how the republican party has become the party of Trump, what is the point of listening to someone that supports that?

This isn't about policy differences. It is about supporting a party that literally wants to destroy democracy. If you witnessed the last almost 5 years now and still support that guy I have zero respect for anything you say, because you obviously are OK with all the shit that comes with Trump and his followers.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mota

If I was American I would be a Democrat, but I just wanted to try and understand who a typical Republican is, and what is important to them. I know my dad is pro-Trump and it drives me nuts, but I still try to listen to what he is saying.

It's when both sides stop listening to each other altogether that we end up in this position.

Listen to what? We have heard what is important to them for some time. It is not hard to find this or people willing to talk.

They want Trump as their King and for him to imprison and or execute political opponents. They want a white ethnostate. I would love to list policies, but they don't seem to stand for anything but doing whatever makes the other side mad.

The issue isn't "listening". We hear people say what they want all the time.

[Butter]

The right has zero self-reflection skill and zero critical thinking ability. Prove me wrong.

There is no fair debate to be had with a group that is not interested in debating topics on their merits. It's just all about shouting the loudest

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

It's interesting though that your first instinct is defend the right, blame the left even all the historical data says the threat is very unevenly weighted to the right

This is the issue than Brian is trying to highlight: everything seems to have to be binary.

The post you quoted & replied to literally says that the right is a lot worse, but there is an inability for many on either side to acknowledge anything other than perfection from their own team.

This is why these sorts of discussions are ultimately pointless, they aren't debates or discussions, they're framed as 100% good v. 100% pure evil with nothing given either way.

[molson]

Originally Posted by AlexB

This is the issue than Brian is trying to highlight: everything seems to have to be binary.

I used to lean right on a lot of things, and was very annoyed by some of the perspectives of the left, including as expressed on this board.

Then one side elected Trump, tried to overthrow the country, and opposes vaccines for a crippling pandemic. I'm binary now. One side is evil and one side is at least diverse with only some annoying shit about them that suddenly doesn't really matter to me anymore.

[spleen1015]

I was the same molson. Based on my upbringing, I had a very ignorant view of the world. Now that I am older, more mature and wiser, I think I lean more to the left. What I try to do is not pick a side. I just believe what I believe.

I don't feel the need to be against one side or the other just because they are on the other side.

If anything, I can't stand most of what we see about Republicans in the news. They are the minority party and everything they do is just so they can hold on to power. I don't think any politician really cares about us, but I really don't think the Republicans do.

I was talking to someone the other day and they were frustrated that masks mandates are starting to come back. They try to say that it was all of the immigrants coming up from Mexico that were causing the outbreaks in FL, LA, and AL.

When I asked the question "So, you think it's immigrants and not the fact that people in those states aren't getting vaccinated?" They got pissed at me and said I always turn these conversations political.

Blaming immigrants is 100% right wing media passing the blame.

Some smart people are doing some stupid shit over this. I still can't believe something like a pandemic has become political.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

It's interesting though that your first instinct is defend the right, blame the left even all the historical data says the threat is very unevenly weighted to the right

Even more interestingly, I actually didn't do a word of that. I'm not saying that to be snarky, I'm being literal. Not a word of what I posted was in any way a defense of the right. I made two points:

** The left isn't IMO as much better as was claimed. Not because what was said about the right was wrong - it wasn't for the most part.

** People being afraid to say what they think is terrible for democracy, society, politics in general, etc. and we're at a high on that with a gradual, steady increase.

I don't agree with your assessment of the historical data either, but that's a longer conversation that would be useful in this thread I think.

[Brian Swartz]

@AlexB: As ever, I thank you for being a reasonable and fair-minded contributor

Originally Posted by JPhillips

So there is no belief that should be socially unacceptable?

This is a very good and valid question, kudos to you for bringing it up. I wouldn't say *no* belief; I would say a vanishingly small amount of them should be. What happens on the extremes isn't my concern here though. I.e., leave the conservatives complete out of it, assume they are all full of crap (not a half-bad assumption these days ).

The latest polling data indicates that *moderates*, by almost 2:1, are afraid to say what they think. This is not just an issue at the extremes. Even liberals are basically split. It's only the left wing that doesn't feel this way in modern America.

Originally Posted by Lathum

If they are afraid to state them publicly perhaps they should rethink their stances?

Serious question; is that really the kind of country you want to live in? Maybe it is, in which case we're so different on what a modern western nation should be like that we can leave it there.

By that standard, presumably Galileo should have kept his mouth shut, northern abolitionists in the first half of the 19th century certainly should have reconsidered what they think, etc. My stance is that is a free and pluralistic society depends on its ability to debate opinions that people don't like without ending up in a place where we want people fired, we aren't going to speak to family members who don't believe the 'right' thing, etc. because their opinions offend us - as Hitchens often said, being offended does not constitute an argument.

Originally Posted by Lathum

The thing is, what we know about Trump now, and how the republican party has become the party of Trump, what is the point of listening to someone that supports that?

This isn't about policy differences. It is about supporting a party that literally wants to destroy democracy. If you witnessed the last almost 5 years now and still support that guy I have zero respect for anything you say, because you obviously are OK with all the shit that comes with Trump and his followers.

Nah, you don't have to be OK with Trump. As has been said before, you just have to think the current Democratic Party is worse. This is part of what's missing often on this board. I don't think most of the posters here have anything resembling a real sense of just how insane - that word is not excessive or an exaggeration - a significant portion of America thinks the current direction of Democrats is. That doesn't make Democrats wrong, but how many times have we talked about people like Amash here on the board and people will say 'I respect him a lot but would never vote for him because of the policies he stands for'. It can't be ok to say that but then not ok for others to say that about Democrats they think are nuts on policy.

Yes, as bad as we (accurately) think Trump was, from the insurrection on down, there are those who think Democrats stand for things that are *worse*. We need to process that.

We're way past the point of even not listening to each other. I'd take a return to that right now. We need to get back to 'I detest your beliefs and oppose them with every fiber of my being, but I'm not going to hold that against you personally'. It's like a story that the late Alan Colmes related vis a vis the idea that our personal interactions shouldn't be about politics. Too many of us are becoming like the people who want a lengthy discussion about Roe v. Wade in the cafeteria line; we see everyone through that lens of whether you're on the 'right' side. Colmes's response (close paraphrase): "No thanks, I'd rather just enjoy my salad". We need to interact with each other as people first. We should be able to enjoy family outings, neighborhood get-togethers, conversations at the grocery store, etc. with people that we know have political views we find odious and not concern ourselves with that as an interruption of just being their friends as fellow citizens and human beings. If we're watching a movie or a TV show or whatever, it shouldn't matter to us whether the actors/producers/etc. are republicans or democrats or said the wrong thing on Twitter last week. Our concern should be whether they make a product we find valuable.

.02.

[Ghost Econ]

We've gone from Patrick Henry saying he regrets having but one life to give for his country to the Arkansas governor saying regrets having given so many other lives for his country.

Arkansas governor says he regrets signing ban on mask mandates | TheHill

There is no imaginary hell deep and hot enough for these people.

[Lathum]

Brian-

Your entire word salad fails to take in to account the left still stands for policy initiatives. Healthcare for all, fair immigration, infrastructure, equality. Stomping out a pandemic FFS has become a left initiative, christ, merely acknowledging the severity of it has become a left talking point.

We're way past the point of even not listening to each other. I'd take a return to that right now. We need to get back to 'I detest your beliefs and oppose them with every fiber of my being, but I'm not going to hold that against you personally'.

and why do you think we are at this point? It is because of Fox News, Trump, Rush, Alex Jones, etc...turning politics in our country into a culture war, and still the Dems are trying to work with the right. Who do you think puts the fear of "the other side" into these people? FFS the rhetoric that comes from all directions of the right is laughable. You would think it was satire if you knew any better.

Literally the only thing the right cares about is owning the libs. When you start from that position then yes, your stances are shit and shouldn't be heard or validated, and you certainly can't debate that as policy. There is no reasoning with these people because facts are decried as fake news.

The right wants to talk about immigration, or deficit, or healthcare, great, but they don't, they want to talk about CRT and trannys playing boys sports. They are a fucking joke.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Ghost Econ

We've gone from Patrick Henry saying he regrets having but one life to give for his country to the Arkansas governor saying regrets having given so many other lives for his country.

Arkansas governor says he regrets signing ban on mask mandates | TheHill

There is no imaginary hell deep and hot enough for these people.

Who knew infecting your kids to own the libs wasn't a great strategy.

Problem is the legislature will never overturn this because they know its political suicide, because you know, their constituents are all "well the leopards won't eat my face"

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Lathum

your entire word salad fails to take in to account the left still stands for policy initiatives. Healthcare for all, fair immigration, infrastructure, equality. Stomping out a pandemic FFS has become a left initiative, christ, merely acknowledging the severity of it has become a left talking point.

I don't think that's relevant here. As I said in post, assume for the sake of argument all conservatives - *all*, not merely 90% or 95% or 99%. ALL are out to lunch.

We're still at a point where most moderates have a problem. These are people who aren't in it to own the libs, so we need to find a new brush to paint them with. Wacko conservatives doesn't fly.

If we were in a situation where it was just conservatives who felt ostracized there would be a reasonable conversation to have about whether you have a legitimate point. That's not the situation we have.

Originally Posted by Lathum

Literally the only thing the right cares about is owning the libs. When you start from that position then yes, your stances are shit and shouldn't be heard or validated, and you certainly can't debate that as policy. There is no reasoning with these people because facts are decried as fake news.

The right wants to talk about immigration, or deficit, or healthcare, great, but they don't, they want to talk about CRT and trannys playing boys sports. They are a fucking joke.

This simply isn't true also. There's a lot of people who think immigration is a serious issues, it's part of where Trump's support came from. CRT, 'trannys playing boys sports', etc., are also significant issues to some on the right. The assumption that they aren't demonstrates what's going on here. Again, significant elements on the right think the list of policies you've listed as left initiatives are just as ridiculous. That is a real thing. When they hear liberals talking about equality the way they define, they think these people are absolutely bat-@&( insane. A couple people on these forums even have said so in my memory. What you describe as 'fair immigration' is 'surrendering control of our borders' to them. The culture war is often a matter of self-defense in the face of what they see as liberals tearing down every vestige of it they can find as quickly as possible. It's always easier to look at what 'we' believe and say it's the other side that's full of it, but when it comes to national dialogue and unity that doesn't get us anywhere.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

We're way past the point of even not listening to each other. I'd take a return to that right now.

How do you not know what the other side believes right now? There is a stream of consciousness from every politician and supporter you could want to hear online. You can watch massive rallies and see which policies are being promoted by a candidate. Who in modern society is struggling to find out what the other side has to say?

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

We need to get back to 'I detest your beliefs and oppose them with every fiber of my being, but I'm not going to hold that against you personally'.

How does this work when the person believes you're supporting a cabal of pedophiles and that you and everyone who believes what you do should be imprisoned for it? Or a person who is desperately trying to infect as many people as they can with a deadly virus? If you can't hold it against someone for being a fascist who wants you dead, when can you hold it against them?

These aren't debates about whether the tax rate should be 30% or 33%. It's about whether we maintain a semblance of democracy or move to an autocratice white ethnostate.

[Lathum]

edit to add this was in response to Brian, not Rainmaker


So your solution is to give these people, who are batshit insane, a voice? You think we should validate and respect the opinions of the alex Jones of the world? Thats your solution to reunifying the country?

As for my statement about owning the libs not being true, what was the republican platform for the 2020 election? Thy literally didn't have a new one, they just repeated Trumps from 2016. But right, they really care about the core issues...

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

These aren't debates about whether the tax rate should be 30% or 33%. It's about whether we maintain a semblance of democracy or move to an autocratice white ethnostate.

But according to Brian we can't have a democracy without giving those people a voice. Quite the conundrum

[Flasch186]

Brian lost me when he literally won’t even acknowledge statistics and twists himself into a pretzel to translate the anecdotal anomaly into the counter to overwhelming data.

It’s just not worth discussing anymore

Even now

Eradicating a pandemic globally is equalized against a comparably small amount of immigration concerns and the handful of trans sports things.

It’s literally like comparing a bike ramp to mount St Helen’s and saying they’re equivalents.

It’s just not worth it any more


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Brian Swartz]

The main point has been made twice and continues to be ignored. I don't see a point in continuing on the other parts without making some progress on this part of the discussion. Quoting myself:

Originally Posted by me

We're still at a point where most moderates have a problem. These are people who aren't in it to own the libs, so we need to find a new brush to paint them with. Wacko conservatives doesn't fly.

There's no hope of solving the fringes if we can't find common ground on the mainstream.

[RainMaker]

Side 1: I would like to have people vote for their representatives.

Side 2: I would like to crown a King who has support from a minority of the population and have him lock up opponents for crimes I read about them doing on a 4chan knockoff while killing off millions with a virus that is fully treatable.

Brainiacs: We should sit down like adults and find a middle ground.

[thesloppy]

I might believe in Brian's professed respect & concern for hypothetical people's opinions if I didn't see him in here directly questioning real people's opinions into dust, practically every single day.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Flasch

rian lost me when he literally won’t even acknowledge statistics and twists himself into a pretzel to translate the anecdotal anomaly into the counter to overwhelming data.

Except that's a blatant lie and not at all what I did. I acknowledged those statistics repeatedly and showed data which proved what I was saying in that thread, while it was you who were twisting by misusing statistics that didn't actually back up your claims.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I might believe in Brian's professed respect & concern for hypothetical people's opinions if I didn't see him in here directly questioning real people's opinions practically every single day.

Apples and grapefruits. This is a debate forum. Questioning people's opinions is what we do. I find it interesting that you're fine with questioning mine, and don't mind when other people question mine. It's only when I question opinions of others that it's a problem. Why is that, exactly?

Nowhere here have I advocated personally attacking people who disagree with me. Nowhere have I suggested there should be consequences to them beyond this forum for doing so.

Self-described moderates, by the way, are not 'hypothetical' in any sense.

[RainMaker]

People who describe themselves as "moderates" are often not. Like when all the white supremacists started calling themselves "classical liberals".

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

The main point has been made twice and continues to be ignored. I don't see a point in continuing on the other parts without making some progress on this part of the discussion. Quoting myself:



There's no hope of solving the fringes if we can't find common ground on the mainstream.

What you are failing or refusing to recognize is these people you call moderates are complicit with the whackos. They can tell themselves they vote republican because of abortion or immigration or whatever traditional values used to exist within the party, however the reality is they are just as guilty as the fringe people. They are literally on the same side as nazis and domestic terrorists.

[Brian Swartz]

That just leaves us in a position where we accept what polls say when it suits us, and don't when it doesn't. I mean, if we're not willing to take self-identification at face value, is there any point in debating anything?

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Lathum

What you are failing or refusing to recognize is these people you call moderates are complicit with the whackos. They can tell themselves they vote republican because of abortion or immigration or whatever traditional values used to exist within the party, however the reality is they are just as guilty as the fringe people. They are literally on the same side as nazis and domestic terrorists.

If all self-identifying moderates voted Republican Democrats would lose every election. How do you know they are even Republican voters? I mean, I don't know that. Where do you get this presumption from?