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#3451 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Burke, VA
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Knowing first-hand (VT) the history of how the Big East people operate, Villanova can expect 3-5 years of thoroughly getting jerked around.
Last edited by Toddzilla : 04-11-2011 at 07:16 AM. |
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#3452 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
I don't know that you can really equate the situations since Villanova is already a member of the conference, but I see where you are coming from. I would say that ECU is most likely to be the one to get the VT and Temple treatment as football-only until the Big East's hand is forced. Apparently, the idea was floated to TCU and UCF, but both were clear that they were not interested in football-only memberships. ECU has reportedly been more receptive to it (as has Temple). |
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#3453 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Madison, WI
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As a pure cost-benefit analysis, it might behoove Villanova to move up, since they're set to land in a BCS conference. Would the additional football revenue -- TV contracts, bowl revenue, BCS payout -- cover facilities upgrades, the cost of additional scholarships, not to mention any women's sports they might have to add to maintain Title IX compliance? It's certainly possible.
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#3454 |
College Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
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I think on a pure cost-benefit analysis, NCAA D-I programs are not as profitable as you think.
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#3455 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Madison, WI
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I know only a small fraction (18-20?) of the 120 FBS schools turn profits for their entire athletic department. But I bet Villanova might be able to run their athletic department at less of a deficit with BCS-level football than without it. Duke/Northwestern/Vandy's numbers might shed some light on that, but they're private schools that don't have to release their financial data.
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#3456 | ||
lolzcat
Join Date: May 2001
Location: williamsburg, va
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Quote:
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#3457 |
lolzcat
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
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Exactly. Think the difference between 21-24-27, and THIRTY. |
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#3458 | |
lolzcat
Join Date: May 2001
Location: williamsburg, va
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Let's take an example.
Appalachian State - A successful I-AA program - not the most profitable, but up their in profit and success - football revenue 678k, expense 1.92mil Rutgers - I think arguably on a similar level to what Nova would hope to be (and a BE school) - footbal revenue 10.7mil, expense 10.7mil. Admittedly, Rutgers looks better than I thought they would - but I would argue that Villanova would have a VERY hard time getting as much support as Rutgers has. They get 46k a game, Nova's stadium they're using only fits 20k. Cincinnati, the BE team with the lowest attendance (35k) has 5.2mil in revenue and 7.1mil in operating expenses. So, no, I do not think football at VU would be a revenue generator.
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#3459 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Seattle
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I would absolutely shocked if the Pac-12 doesn't try again with Texas & Oklahoma and whatever other two schools are needed to make it work. The last-minute deal to "save" the Big-12 is not going to last long, and the Pac-12 is going to sign a huge TV deal soon which will grab everyone's attention. The main sticking point (beyond Texas state politics) will be how to integrate the Longhorn Network with the soon to be created Pac-12 Network.
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#3460 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
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Quote:
Not too sure about that. The Big 12 is about to sign a deal that would more than triple their regional network dollars. Add in that there are two less members of the conference and the renegotiation of the national contract in a couple years, and it's a huge jump in revenue for the conference on a per school basis. The predictions of a quick death for the Big 12 appear pretty premature at this point, especially with UT and OU able to do their own networks under the current setup. |
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#3461 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Michigan
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Quote:
Sounds like the Haith Effect is doing work for the Big 12. |
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#3462 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dayton, OH
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I heard that the Longhorn Network is throwing out the first pitch at this weekend's Cardinals game.
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#3463 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
...and there goes the Big 12. ![]() |
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#3464 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Back in Houston!
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Aw crap. I, for one, welcome our new basketball home for Kansas in the CUSA
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#3465 |
General Manager
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
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Deal is done. Roughly $1 billion over 13 years for the Big 12's secondary TV contract on Fox Sports. It's actually bigger than Beebe even promised. Kudos to him for making a deal that most thought was impossible a year ago.
Big 12, Fox Sports announce 13-year deal |
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#3466 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
The Big12 won't even last for the next 5 years. Nice deal, but it isn't going to hold. |
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#3467 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
It will hold for as long as Texas wants it to stay together, which I bet will be more than 5 years. The deal will keep Texas, ATM, and Oklahoma fat, give Tech and Oklahoma State a leg up on the bottom half of the conference, and give enough scraps to Kansas/KSU/Missouri/Iowa State/Baylor so that they will be making more than they could anywhere else (that will have them). It will continue to keep the big three in the driver's seat of the conference, but the other seven don't have any other viable options (the Big Ten is done expanding, the SEC is not going to expand to twelve w/ A&M unless other conferences start moving, and, although I am sure that Kansas/KSU/Mizzou could find an immediate home in the Big East, it wouldn't pay as much as what the Big 12 deal does). I think the lesson from this round of expansion is that the networks don't want conferences larger than 12. |
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#3468 |
College Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Yeah, keeping Texas happy is key. I think the Big 12 stays together unless the Longhorns go the Notre Dame route, which is not all that far-fetched.
Probably the most surprising thing to me, which I must have missed earlier, is that the Big 12 is scrapping its title game format. Definitely a good idea and I wish other teams would follow suit. |
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#3469 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Seattle
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Unless they appealed to the NCAA, they didn't have a choice since their membership dropped below 12 teams.
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#3470 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
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Quote:
If what the conference members got was 'scraps', we want more of that. The non-UT teams got HUGE increases over the last deal. This deal doesn't even include the money that all schools will split from NU and CU buyouts and the apparent Big 12 network that will be created by the other nine schools (it appears that OU may opt not to create their own network). |
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#3471 |
College Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Edmond, OK
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Personally, I'll miss the Big 12 Championship game, but that's mostly because OU is in it every year (Ping: cartman) ;-)
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#3472 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
Only the bottom five teams got scraps. Texas, A&M, and Oklahoma got filets. ![]() It is a good deal and great news for Kansas/KSU/Missouri/Baylor/Iowa State, as it still keeps them in the neighborhood, but they are living in the smallest houses while their conference mates are living in mansions and have vacation homes. It is a great deal for the other five teams (and particularly the Big 3). Everyone (ACC, PAC 12, Big 12) that was up for renegotiations got HUGE increases over their last deals. Live sports are among the best advertising bang for your buck nowadays (low DVR rates) and they hit a tough to reach demographic (young to middle aged males), so networks are willing to pay. The problem for the bottom five teams is that they have to directly compete on an uneven playing field. So, good news that their athletic departments will have considerably more money to play with, but bad news that they will have to be considerably more efficient with that money in order to consistently compete within their conference. |
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#3473 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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I believe Nebraska's Big 12 buyout has already been satisfied by the conference withholding its payout from last season: " + artTitle.replace("-","") + " - " + "Daily Nebraskan" + " - " + "Sports" + "
Looks like Colorado and Nebraska will combine to pay $16.1-million (withheld already, so presumably collected). Not sure how it will be distributed. |
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#3474 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The State of Rutgers
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#3475 | |
Death Herald
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas
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Quote:
I guess you do always remember fondly your final win of the season. ![]()
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#3476 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
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Quote:
Mizzou has been the exception from that group. They run a profitable AD and have regularly put both money programs in the top 25 over the last few years. Facilities are excellent in basketball and good in football. If they didn't have a B12 championship, we would have seen Mizzou playing for a national championship in 2007. Now, we'll have to see what happens to basketball in the upcoming seasons, but this isn't a situation like MLB like you're painting it. Any of those programs can turn things around very quickly. Last edited by Mizzou B-ball fan : 04-14-2011 at 08:59 PM. |
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#3477 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Seattle
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The Big-12 TV deal is very good news for the Pac-12. It will be interesting to see how the Pac-12 splits compare with the "haves" in the Big-12...
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#3478 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Edmond, OK
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Quote:
Particularly when it's more than your fifth... ![]() |
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#3479 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dayton, OH
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Quote:
I did enjoy how they tried to spin that like it was their idea to avoid having the title game knock out a Big 12 team from the BCS championship game.
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#3480 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Whittier
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#3481 |
Solecismic Software
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Canton, OH
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I'll believe in the death of a major conference when I see a major conference successfully managing more than 12 schools.
The numbers people are throwing around with these new television deals effectively prove the Pac 10-12 was acting irrationally in its quest for Texas. If the time arrives for 16-school conferences, the Big Ten and the SEC will decide whether the ACC or the Big 12 gets eaten along with the Big East. |
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#3482 | ||
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Seattle
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Quote:
THAT would have had even greater implications in the current TV deal windfall we're seeing, and it's exactly why the Big-12 was able to get promises from the networks that mollified Texas and thus saved the conference. One less major conference would have meant that much less "product" out there for sports networks, and thus driven up the price for the Pac-16 even more than just adding Texas and Oklahoma would have done in a vacuum. http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/e...202/28551497/1 Quote:
And I see no good reason why a major conference couldn't handle managing 16 teams; if the Pac-12 is able in the future to lure Texas and Oklahoma (and whatever other two teams are required to make that happen - likely Oklahoma State and Texas Tech), I think what we'll see is effectively two 8-team conferences with their own division leadership and a shared, conference-wide commissioner. |
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#3483 |
Solecismic Software
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Canton, OH
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If Texas believed a share of a 16-team pie was better than a continued share of their 10-team pie, it would have partaken.
At a certain point, expanding the pie means less for everyone - rights are dependent on who belongs, and there are only a handful of schools (Texas and Notre Dame being in that group) that could truly make a difference. Maybe that decision makes sense for the Pac-12 with Texas, but it doesn't make sense without Texas and it doesn't make sense for Texas. You have two eight-team divisions and you don't see teams in the other division at home for 16 years. Might as well be in different conferences as you at least can develop a strong inter-conference rivalry instead. |
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#3484 | ||||
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Seattle
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Quote:
Jumping from the Big-12 to form a Pac-16 would have been a terrifically bold move on the part of Texas. They would have endured a huge amount of protest from Texas citizens upset at them for breaking up the conference, and for splitting up the rivalry with A&M (and leaving Baylor behind), and there would have been a lot of tremendously hurt feelings among the Big-12 schools left behind. That may not mean much to us fans, but I'd bet it means more to University Presidents that would have to face their colleagues. When it became clear that the broadcasters feared the break-up of the Big-12 and the rest of the conference agreed to concessions to give Texas an even bigger slice of the pie, it was a safe choice for them to stay put. I'm not sure even they could foresee just how much money was out there to be spent on college sports TV rights; at the time, speculation was the Pac-10/12 was looking at maybe a $150-160M deal; now we're hearing at least a $220M deal, and the network in question ponying up most of the start-up costs of a Pac-12 network. Texas may yet regret not jumping if the Pac-12 gets the kind of money that is being speculated, especially when you consider that Texas jumping would have killed the Big-12 as a major conference, and thus driven up prices for the Pac-16 deal even higher due to less supply on the open market of TV rights available to bid on. Quote:
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Last edited by dawgfan : 04-17-2011 at 01:06 PM. |
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#3485 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Looks like the Big East and ESPN are now re-negotiating, as well: ESPN, Big East in talks on extension - SportsBusiness Daily | SportsBusiness Journal
The Big East will most likely get less than the ACC, but it will still be a huge, huge increase (both in raw numbers and proportionally vs where they were in relation to the other BCS conferences) over what they were getting on their last deal (which, unfortunately, was made just after the ACC raid). From the numbers being floated in the article, I'd guess that ESPN is willing to overpay in order to keep the hybrid together. |
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#3486 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: NYC
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The increase is great. But the league splitting and putting the league rights on the open market would get even more money for each team.
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#3487 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Concord, MA/UMass
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UMass's announcement is allegedly written and ready to go, with "one hurdle" to clear. Unfortunately that hurdle appears to be actually being given an invitation by the MAC. Reportedly it may come down to whether Temple stays in the MAC (in which case we'd get an invite), or gets the offer to join CUSA (presumably to replace teams leaving for the Big East), in which case the MAC would stay at 12 and not invite us. The deadline for Temple leaving is I believe June 1, and the deadline for us announcing our move either June 1st or July 1st, so we may be in a holding pattern for the next 6 weeks.
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#3488 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The State of Rutgers
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#3489 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Catonsville, MD
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I still think UMass has got to be on the Big East's radar to see how they do for a few years, and if they can move up, for so many reasons. I think UMass fits a lot better than Memphis, East Carolina, Marshall, UCF, etc
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#3490 | |
Dark Cloud
Join Date: Apr 2001
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UMass set to join MAC - College Football Nation Blog - ESPN
Welp. That settles that. Football-only. Quote:
Last edited by Young Drachma : 04-19-2011 at 01:22 PM. |
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#3491 | |
lolzcat
Join Date: May 2001
Location: williamsburg, va
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There are some that are talking doom and gloom for the CAA, but I'm not buying it - even if Villanova goes Big East (which I don't think they are).
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#3492 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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It's kind of interesting to hear that so many teams are moving up from the FCS (or starting from scratch) when we keep hearing how much of a money-drain most football teams are on schools.
Off the top of my head, I know that Texas State, Texas-San Antonio, South Alabama, UMass, and Western Kentucky are all in transition to make the move. I think GSU and UNC-Charlotte are somewhere in the process. And, I have heard (or there have been rumors, at least) that VCU, Appy State, Villanova, and Montana are or have considered it. |
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#3493 | ||
lolzcat
Join Date: May 2001
Location: williamsburg, va
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Quote:
Umm, VCU doesn't have a football team, so I'm not sure who you mean there... ODU? JMU? Anyway, I think the others are accurate. I'd be surprised if Appy moves up, I think there's a decent chance Montana does, and Villanova I already said I believe is dead in the water.
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#3494 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Seattle
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Quote:
As well, I would guess these schools look at FBS football as another way of marketing their school and building up the prestige of the entire athletic department. |
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#3495 | ||
lolzcat
Join Date: May 2001
Location: williamsburg, va
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Quote:
I've looked this up because of some arguments folks were making about Villanova. There are actually not very many FBS programs that "pay for themselves". There is a site out there that gives specific numbers for each school ( NCAA Financial Reports Database | IndyStar.com ) , but teams in non-BCS conferences generally are not "paying for themselves". For instance. Miami of Ohio, in the MAC, 4.5 mil in revenue (with 2.5 mil being student fees), 4.5 mil operating costs. (they seem to have something setup, probably the fees, to break even here) So, they break even. Eastern Michigan, in the MAC, 3.1 mil revenue (with 1.2 mil being student fees), 4.3 mil operating costs. I could go on and on, but the idea that for most FBS schools, football pays for their other sports is just a big time misconception.
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#3496 | |
Dark Cloud
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Quote:
Yeah, in the case of UMass, I think it came down to timing and realizing that the gains of spending the requisite amount of cash as a flagship outweighed playing at the lower level. UConn's football ascent probably hasn't hurt in terms of a roadmap for a fellow New England flagship sans the wildly successful basketball part. I think Montana would've made the move if they weren't tethered with Montana State and for those programs in football-mad locales (Texas schools), it's probably worth it in the long run because you get to differentiate yourself from the regional schools in the area that can't or won't make the move up, even if it costs you. The increased donations probably offset the move up in the longrun for a lot of these institutions too. What was the last school to kill D-1A/FBS football? Unless there was one after this, Pacific was the last one in 1995. Last edited by Young Drachma : 04-19-2011 at 02:16 PM. |
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#3497 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
Ummm, I meant JMU. |
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#3498 | |
lolzcat
Join Date: May 2001
Location: williamsburg, va
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JMU I think is a likely candidate. They just put like $40 mil into their stadium to increase up to like 25k or 30k seats. I think they are going to make the move - I just don't know when, or under what circumstances. Some say GSU and ODU and maybe Delaware will try to make the move. So.. There are some fans that want the CAA to try and move up as a conference, but that's a huge obstacle if anyone were to ever seriously consider it.
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#3499 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
It looks like the last group to die off were some of the California schools in the early to mid-90s. Cal. State Long Beach in '91, Cal. State Northridge in '92, and Pacific in '95. To piggyback on to my earlier post, Jacksonville State is another school that is exploring a move up: http://www.jsugamecocksports.com/new...418110329.aspx |
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#3500 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Seattle
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Quote:
It's a valid point though - a school looking to move up from FCS into a non-BCS conference is probably going to lose money. The money disparity between the BCS conferences and the others is likely growing exponentially with the recent TV deals we're seeing. |
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