Chaos in Baltimore

[panerd]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

It means when people are systematically mistreated, they will eventually lash out. But I suspect you knew that.

Does anyone believe that white people would put up with being mistreated as a group over the course of centuries without lashing out?

I thought you and a few others were talking about the evil corporations and evil rich people who exploit both white and black people all the time so they can have extra hundred dollar bills to light their cigars with? Or does the villainous minimum wage only effect the black people? Confused is this a race war or a class war today? A lot of white people hate in your last series of posts.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by panerd

Who is the racist? Certainly not the white guy who thinks a black guy with 20+ arrests was just the typical dumb black guy who had no other alternative but to turn to a life of crime... basically for no other reason than he isn't white. Sounds like you would fit right in at a KKK meeting... they feel the same way as you.

Yep. You're right. It is absolutely racist to want to find the root causes of why people act the way they act and offer help instead of harassment if at all possible.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Yep. You're right. It is absolutely racist to want to find the root causes of why people act the way they act and offer help instead of harassment if at all possible.

"I don't even know why you posted this? Don't you know Freddie should've just pulled himself up by his bootstraps, like white people?"


A really deep thought that digs deep into the sociological causes of what is going on.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by panerd

"I don't even know why you posted this? Don't you know Freddie should've just pulled himself up by his bootstraps, like white people?"


A really deep thought that digs deep into the sociological causes of what is going on.

If you can't tell a remark like that is dripping with sarcasm, I don't really know what to tell you?

[muns]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Yep. You're right. It is absolutely racist to want to find the root causes of why people act the way they act and offer help instead of harassment if at all possible.

So let's have an honest conversation then about roots and who is helping and not helping here. The population of Baltimore is something like 622,000 and 63 percent of its population is black. The mayor, state’s attorney, police chief and city council president are black, as is 48 percent of the police force. Those who are in power have had every opportunity to try and change things for a very very long time here.

So why haven't they? Where is the outcry and outrage for failed government? In asking that question, you run smack into the racial issue.

My neighbors say there is a lack of education here, and that isn't exactly true. Our schools are terrible, but its not for a lack of money. Back in 2011, The Baltimore school system ranked second among the nation's 100 largest school districts in how much it spent per pupil in fiscal year 2011, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. The city's $15,483 per-pupil expenditure was second to New York City's $19,770. Clearly, money isn't the problem. So what is?

My neighbors say there is a lack of opportunity here. I can't relate to that because I am a transplant from Pittsburgh and had my job lined up before moving here. But that is the mindset they are in and I hear what they are saying.

But what I don't understand, and have trouble wrapping my brain around is if the majority of the city is black, and they feel oppressed and want change why don't they vote and make the change? They could if they wanted to. The answer to that question lies within the racial divide that I mentioned above and who the majority want to see running the city.

[Ben E Lou]

6 officers will be charged.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/01/us/fre...ath/index.html

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

6 officers will be charged.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/01/us/fre...ath/index.html

So now comes the chicken or the egg question...

Are all of the officers charged if there are no riots?

As much as I loathe the rioting and the rationalization of the criminal behavior I feel like the blue wall of silence has to shoulder a huge part of the blame. This is of course my own opinion and one can argue due process was going to take place with or without the riots but I think that isn't the case.

[Dutch]

If anybody in our country is proven guilty, they need to do the time. Period.

And that includes cops and rioters alike.

[Dutch]

Meahwhile, in the uber-Democrat town of Dundalk, Baltimore...


Dundalk man recovering after beating | Maryland News - WBAL Home

Roving gangs of black teens brutally assault 60 year old white man for trying to break up a fight between 2 girls in front of his house.

As sad as that is, my search for Dundalk produced this...

Urban Dictionary: Dundalk

#Butfuckitblamewhitepeople

[nol]

Originally Posted by panerd

So now comes the chicken or the egg question...

Are all of the officers charged if there are no riots?

As much as I loathe the rioting and the rationalization of the criminal behavior I feel like the blue wall of silence has to shoulder a huge part of the blame. This is of course my own opinion and one can argue due process was going to take place with or without the riots but I think that isn't the case.

Definitely. Every time one of these situations occurs, someone pops in with some "uhh I've got some inside knowledge from a friend of a friend who says it's 100 percent not the cop's fault" statement that doesn't pass the smell test. These kind of statements have an uncanny record of being the official version of events whenever there isn't an overwhelming amount of evidence or attention.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Dutch

As sad as that is, my search for Dundalk produced this...

Urban Dictionary: Dundalk

#Butfuckitblamewhitepeople

You searched for Dundalk and settled on the Urban Dictionary definition?

Stop using Bing.

Dundalk, Maryland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Meahwhile, in the uber-Democrat town of Dundalk, Baltimore...


Dundalk man recovering after beating | Maryland News - WBAL Home

Roving gangs of black teens brutally assault 60 year old white man for trying to break up a fight between 2 girls in front of his house.

As sad as that is, my search for Dundalk produced this...

Urban Dictionary: Dundalk

#Butfuckitblamewhitepeople

Sounds almost as bad as Tampa.

A cesspool of bad drivers, seedy strip clubs, metal bands, old farts, ghetto wanna-be rich kids, and a college that breeds criminal activity. In the last 5 years, voted the second worst city for drivers, in the top ten in pedestrian injuries/deaths, 2nd in worst allergy related illness, 3rd most depressing city, 6th worst city for sports, 9th worst city of overall credit score boasting a 675, and the 7th most dangerous city in the united states. If you are coming from up north to move down here, turn around. We're already full.

[Raven]

Originally Posted by Subby

You searched for Dundalk and settled on the Urban Dictionary definition?

Stop using Bing.

Dundalk, Maryland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The closest generalization I can give you for Dundalk - think about the Dock workers from season 2 of The Wire. It's a mostly white neighborhood that you move away from, not into.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Raven

The closest generalization I can give you for Dundalk - think about the Dock workers from season 2 of The Wire. It's a mostly white neighborhood that you move away from, not into.

I try to go there but I keep getting jacked in Scaggsville.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Nothing more than a hunch, but I'm not sure if they'll be able to get a conviction here. We'll see. I get the impression there's still a lot of unanswered questions.

Does anyone know if Maryland is one of those states where a jury can opt for a lesser charge if they don't feel the first charge was proven or do they have only the option of guilty or not guilty on the charge that was filed?

[chinaski]

Freddie Gray not the first to come out of Baltimore police van with serious injuries - Baltimore Sun

Over 48 million in damages paid out from the Baltimore Police for "rough rides".

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Subby

You searched for Dundalk and settled on the Urban Dictionary definition?

Stop using Bing.

Dundalk, Maryland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am actually a long-time Google search fan (ditched Yahoo! for Google many years ago), but I'm definitely a Bing fan now.

Bing It On - Take the Bing versus Google Challenge. Would you bet against Bing?

[EagleFan]

I'll bet against bing. Crap results when I have a see it. Typical Microsoft...

[RainMaker]

Google has way too many ads and pushing their own crap at the top these days.

[NobodyHere]

i had to search google about a threadjack is...

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by panerd

Who is the racist? Certainly not the white guy who thinks a black guy with 20+ arrests was just the typical dumb black guy who had no other alternative but to turn to a life of crime... basically for no other reason than he isn't white. Sounds like you would fit right in at a KKK meeting... they feel the same way as you.

The cop who was charged with murder is black. His Police Commissioner is black. The Mayor of the city is black. The City Council is predominately black. The City Council President is black.

You just don't get it panerd, this is obviously all whitey's fault.

[cuervo72]

Anyone see the new Through the Wormhole last night? It had to do with prejudice and included an experiment where whites and blacks are in a range-like setting and are flashed images of either white or black individuals holding either a cell phone or a gun. The subject has a second to either shoot - and save themself or kill an innocent, or not shoot and spare an innocent or be shot yourself.

Whites killed more black innocents and were generally quicker to shoot blacks than they were whites.

But the kicker - the same results were seen for black participants. Which means that it's not necessarily a personal bias or an "us vs them" reaction. It is ingrained, taught by society. Blacks are dangerous. Who established this? Probably not black people. But the feeling is pervasive enough repeated often enough that blacks themselves believe it too.

[RainMaker]

Is that being taught by society though? Or is it people making judgement based on data? The violent crime disparity between races is rather glaring.

I wonder if they took race out of the equation and just made it men and women. Would the man be more likely to be shot? I'd argue yes because men commit a higher amount of violent crimes in this country.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Anyone see the new Through the Wormhole last night? It had to do with prejudice and included an experiment where whites and blacks are in a range-like setting and are flashed images of either white or black individuals holding either a cell phone or a gun. The subject has a second to either shoot - and save themself or kill an innocent, or not shoot and spare an innocent or be shot yourself.

Whites killed more black innocents and were generally quicker to shoot blacks than they were whites.

But the kicker - the same results were seen for black participants. Which means that it's not necessarily a personal bias or an "us vs them" reaction. It is ingrained, taught by society. Blacks are dangerous. Who established this? Probably not black people. But the feeling is pervasive enough repeated often enough that blacks themselves believe it too.

Here's a more realistic Shoot or Don't Shoot video that truly captures the problems we are asking our police forces to deal with.

[cuervo72]

Yeah, rewatching this now (wife hadn't seen it). They noted that police training greatly reduces the errors made. But mistakes will be made. I think it underscores the importance though of a) training cops correctly and b) trying to deal with/break down these stereotypes.

[Dutch]

I agree that cops need training, but I think they receive quite a bit already...the agenda though isn't to demand "quality police officers", because in many cases, it sure does look like "quality" is "aggressive" and "pessimistic about one's chances of surviving an encounter with a criminal-mind"...the true agenda is to continually cherry-pick every mistake to force government to make changes for the black inner-city communities. I have yet to see where anybody other than white cops and middle-aged white Republican males are being held accountable for any of this...anything at all? It's laughable that the political leaders of these inner-city bastions of hopelessness are not ever being questioned about their policies and ideologies. Just keep blaming whitey...because those leaders know one thing for sure...those shit-holes can't be fixed without some self-reflection and nobody would ever suggest that besides Republicans. The days of JFK ("Ask not what you're country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country") are long gone...

In any event, also in need of some serious training. Protestors.


Damn right, send them all to hell or prison!


Your Baltimore 2015 White Supremacists

Wait, on second thought, how about some due process for my brothers and sisters!

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Your Baltimore 2015 White Supremacists

Wait, on second thought, how about some due process for my brothers and sisters!

Looks like they are getting due process. They've been charged and posted bail. Heck of a lot more due process than Freddy Gray got.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Looks like they are getting due process. They've been charged and posted bail. Heck of a lot more due process than Freddy Gray got.

Of course, there is always due process against those who are suspected of criminal behavior. I'm talking about the riots that happened before due process was given a chance. That is the big fail here. The due process I mentioned at the end was the back-tracking those rioters are going to have to figure out.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Of course, there is always due process against those who are suspected of criminal behavior. I'm talking about the riots that happened before due process was given a chance. That is the big fail here. The due process I mentioned at the end was the back-tracking those rioters are going to have to figure out.

Tell Freddie Gray that one or anyone else who was roughed up by the Baltimore PD.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Tell Freddie Gray that one or anyone else who was roughed up by the Baltimore PD.

Freddie Gray has 6 officers up on charges right, or am I missing something?

[cuervo72]

That Gray is dead after being in police custody?

Police need to be taught that they do not mete out punishment. That's not their job. They shouldn't be roughing up suspects or teaching lessons.

[BillJasper]

I wish people got as up in arms about police violating the rights of other citizens as they do taxes, gay marriage and gun laws.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

I wish people got as up in arms about police violating the rights of other citizens as they do taxes, gay marriage and gun laws.

Sorry, your dismay is misplaced.

On a case-by-case basis, I'm with you! If the police turn into criminals or behave criminally, they will have to pay for that...but I'm not going to listen to people who make up a story about how it's just a bunch of white supremacists trolling poor black neighborhoods on the hunt to kill black guys. I'm not falling for that and you shouldn't either.

[muns]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

That Gray is dead after being in police custody?

Police need to be taught that they do not mete out punishment. That's not their job. They shouldn't be roughing up suspects or teaching lessons.

Totally agree. I think the amount of shit they deal with gets to them, and when guys like Freddie mouth off and give them shit, it then becomes time for a "rough ride". I'm in no way trying to justify what they did, however, in trying to impart the lesson of "shut the hell up and quit squirming" and yada yada yada, the hope is that the lesson makes their job easier next time. It also gets into the pissing contest that "I win" and see what happens when you don't do what I ask or tell you to do which is a problem.

Trainings, mental health days, therapy, it all needs to be combined so that they don't keep doing shit like that.

[muns]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I agree that cops need training, but I think they receive quite a bit already...the agenda though isn't to demand "quality police officers", because in many cases, it sure does look like "quality" is "aggressive" and "pessimistic about one's chances of surviving an encounter with a criminal-mind"...the true agenda is to continually cherry-pick every mistake to force government to make changes for the black inner-city communities. I have yet to see where anybody other than white cops and middle-aged white Republican males are being held accountable for any of this...anything at all? It's laughable that the political leaders of these inner-city bastions of hopelessness are not ever being questioned about their policies and ideologies. Just keep blaming whitey...because those leaders know one thing for sure...those shit-holes can't be fixed without some self-reflection and nobody would ever suggest that besides Republicans. The days of JFK ("Ask not what you're country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country") are long gone...

In any event, also in need of some serious training. Protestors.


Damn right, send them all to hell or prison!


Your Baltimore 2015 White Supremacists

Wait, on second thought, how about some due process for my brothers and sisters!

Nailed it! There hasn't been any accountability here for any policies or practices. The rough rides didn't just start with Freddie, and everybody in the city knows it happens. So again, why hasn't there been change or an outcry for what the government and the leaders here are doing? Beyond frustrating.

[Ryno]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

I wish people got as up in arms about police violating the rights of other citizens as they do taxes, gay marriage and gun laws.

Is it that surprising that people care more about things that affect them personally? Since this issue is so important to you, I wonder what it is that you're doing about it beyond hand-wringing on a message board.

[Buccaneer]

'Lord of the Flies' comes to Baltimore - CNN.com

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Ryno

Is it that surprising that people care more about things that affect them personally? Since this issue is so important to you, I wonder what it is that you're doing about it beyond hand-wringing on a message board.

Yeah, most people aren't getting arrested 20-30 times in their life so this doesn't impact affect them much.

[cuervo72]

I'm sure Christine Abbott was arrested 20-30 times.

Freddie Gray not the first to come out of Baltimore police van with serious injuries - Baltimore Sun

Christine Abbott, a 27-year-old assistant librarian at the Johns Hopkins University, is suing city officers in federal court, alleging that she got such a ride in 2012. According to the suit, officers cuffed Abbott's hands behind her back, threw her into a police van, left her unbuckled and "maniacally drove" her to the Northern District police station, "tossing [her] around the interior of the police van."

"They were braking really short so that I would slam against the wall, and they were taking really wide, fast turns," Abbott said in an interview that mirrored allegations in her lawsuit. "I couldn't brace myself. I was terrified."

On June 2, 2012, Abbott was hosting a party at her Hampden home when two officers arrived to follow up on a noise complaint. According to her lawsuit in U.S. District Court, the officers began to argue with a guest for not putting out a cigarette while they spoke to him. When Abbott tried to calm both sides, the officers threw her to the ground. They then pulled her up, ripping her dress and exposing her breasts. They handcuffed her and "forcefully threw [Abbott] into the back of a police van," the lawsuit states.

"It felt like a roller coaster," Abbott said in the interview. "Except a roller coaster is more secure because you're strapped in."

[Dutch]

NYPD officer reportedly shot in the head, in critical condition | Fox News

[Dutch]

Off-duty Oak Park police officer shot in Chicago - Chicago Tribune

[Dutch]

3 men charged following armed robbery, police shooting - Chicago Tribune

Here's another police shooting, are we going to protest this one (and not give a shit about the cops that were shot in the previous stories this weekend)? Might want to see what the average police shooting looks like though instead of cherry picking.

Armed gunman were on a robbing spree, shot a man in the groin and knee cap for not giving up the cash and when approached by police...brandished a weapon and charged the cops.

These types of scenarios are included in the ~100 police shootings that result in death each year, but leave it to the media to make you think they are all Freddy Gray related deaths.

Meanwhile, 7,000(!) poor, mostly drug related black on black shootings that result in death are ignored by the media. #blacklivesmatter but nobody gives a shit about your sorry ass unless maybe the family can get some cash from an Al Sharpton lead lawsuit. Civil unrest be damned. This race baiting isn't good for our country. Open your eyes.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Dutch

3 men charged following armed robbery, police shooting - Chicago Tribune

Here's another police shooting, are we going to protest this one (and not give a shit about the cops that were shot in the previous stories this weekend)? Might want to see what the average police shooting looks like though instead of cherry picking.

Armed gunman were on a robbing spree, shot a man in the groin and knee cap for not giving up the cash and when approached by police...brandished a weapon and charged the cops.

These types of scenarios are included in the ~100 police shootings that result in death each year, but leave it to the media to make you think they are all Freddy Gray related deaths.

Meanwhile, 7,000(!) poor, mostly drug related black on black shootings that result in death are ignored by the media. #blacklivesmatter but nobody gives a shit about your sorry ass unless maybe the family can get some cash from an Al Sharpton lead lawsuit. Civil unrest be damned. This race baiting isn't good for our country. Open your eyes.

Even if Gray was white, what happened was wrong. Doesn't mean the articles you posted aren't awful but they don't give an excuse as to what has happened in many of these cases of late. The issue isn't race to me -- it's about police officers who are abusing their authority, shooting first, asking questions later. The whole, better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6 saying applies. I undertand that to a point, but we cannot have police officers going around carrying out their own sort of justice -- they are not responsible for that part of the system..

[Dutch]

Family files $20 million claim against Los Angeles in police shooting
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0NL2KT20150430

There is a price to be paid by bad cops. $20M of your tax dollars, potentially. I'd rather if a cops does something illegal, he does the time and not let people get away with raping the taxpayer.

[Dutch]

Atlanta: Woman in custody killed by police
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/shots-f...atlanta/nk6jp/

Yikes, we'll see how this one goes.

[Dutch]

Bad cops in Tennessee too...
Police: Man shot, killed after pointing gun at officer - WSMV Channel 4

Shot and killed this poor man in his home.

[Ben E Lou]

Completely unrelated to anything going on in Baltimore, an old friend's father passed away a couple of weeks ago. Hearing of his passing caused me to think about all the black fathers in my neighborhood, and I wrote a somewhat-rambling FB post about it in tribute to them. It turns out that the riots happened a day or two later:

https://www.facebook.com/benelou/pos...04623523564382

There is an interesting take that parallels some of my thoughts over at CNN about the riots:

'Lord of the Flies' comes to Baltimore - CNN.com

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

There is an interesting take that parallels some of my thoughts over at CNN about the riots:

'Lord of the Flies' comes to Baltimore - CNN.com

That Bucc linked to ten posts ago.

(but agreed - that is a very good essay)

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by rowech

Even if Gray was white, what happened was wrong. Doesn't mean the articles you posted aren't awful but they don't give an excuse as to what has happened in many of these cases of late. The issue isn't race to me -- it's about police officers who are abusing their authority, shooting first, asking questions later. The whole, better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6 saying applies. I undertand that to a point, but we cannot have police officers going around carrying out their own sort of justice -- they are not responsible for that part of the system..

+1

I can't understand how people who are concerned about the size and power of government can't understand that the issue here is the state abusing its power and authority against people it thinks doesn't deserve rights. The cops are supposed to defend people, not deal out vigilante justice. And they definitely shouldn't be doing it in my (and all of our) name.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

+1

I can't understand how people who are concerned about the size and power of government can't understand that the issue here is the state abusing its power and authority against people it thinks doesn't deserve rights. The cops are supposed to defend people, not deal out vigilante justice. And they definitely shouldn't be doing it in my (and all of our) name.

Because that is 100% absolutely false. The "state" is not abusing "black people" (as I assume this is to mean). Are there cases of abuse? Absolutely. Should they be punished for abusing? Yes. Is the state sanctioning abuse? No. Why is this so hard to understand?


As noted in one of the articles I just posted (which all were from this weekend, I believe), citizens were being robbed and nobody was going to stop the robbers...if they resisted, they were shot. So the cops were called into a bad situation and attempted to stop the criminal. How is that the state abusing black people? It's not. That cop was doing his job. But you refuse to talk about the multitudes of cases where cops do the right thing and then, with your broad brush, paint the entire state as bad.


Part of the problem that isn't talked about are these damned statistics. "Police always messing with folks in the poor neighborhoods..." If these poor communities like the one in Baltimore or in Ferguson don't want the cops around all the time, then stop calling them on 911...but the reality is that the reason things are skewed is because it appears to me that more people are calling for help in these shitholes than they are in the middle class neighborhoods.


You think the cops then are like, "Woooo! We got a live one, lock 'n load!" Fuck no, they are thinking, "Fuck, I have to go back into that shithole...lock 'n load..."


What some of you are failing to recognize, is that cops are people too. Not many people want to get into monthly gunfights, especially when your on a salaried job. They just want to pay their light bill and hopefully chill and watch the game on their day off like everybody else.


If you've got the perfect solution that guarantees good guys live and bad guys get locked up and citizens are happy, I'd like to hear it, but until then, I'm not siding with the thugs and criminals who are "sometimes in the right", I'll side with the cops who are "mostly in the right".