Brett Favre Retirement Tour: Part Deux

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

This apply to anybody? I'll write an old BASIC program to sell you. You can book him for 20 picks if he makes it through the whole season in one piece.

I'll be absolutely stunned if Fave turns in anywhere close to a decent performance this year. Arlie has completely nailed this. Favre's season last year was pretty awful. He had a complete of great games that padded his stats but the Jets won some games last year despite him because the opponent was worse.

Let's for a moment forget who he is. How often does a QB come to a brand new team and light it up immediately? I've always had a rule in my fantasy leagues that I try to never take a QB or a WR his first year with a new team because the knowledge and timing isn't there.

Now let's consider that it's a guy who hates to practice signing with a team halfway through training camp at the age of 40 with a bum shoulder playing in stadium where he sucked most of his career. Favre's record in domes has always been atrocious, and most of those games were in Detroit and Minnesota. In almost every game Green Bay was the better team, and his record was weak.

Don't see how this ends well, and considering how it's all been handled, I actually hope it doesn't end well.

You make some very valid points unfortunately you are missing a lot of information that is needed to make an unbias opinion.

1. This is basically the same offense than Favre ran for 15 years, therefore it really isnt a steep learning curve

2. The Vikings wont have Favre the focus of the offense that he has been every other year he has been in the NFL. Less passing attempts.

3. In order to shut down the Vikings teams will have to try to stop the run, therefore Favre will see single coverage a lot of the game. It will be very difficult for him to throw a bunch of ints with that type of defensive scheme

4. Favre's arm appears to be healthy unlike last year

5. The Vikings offensive line is one of the best in football meaning Favre wont be rushed into making terrible decisions like he did last year with the Jets and 3-4 years back with the Packers.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

You make some very valid points unfortunately you are missing a lot of information that is needed to make an unbias opinion.

1. This is basically the same offense than Favre ran for 15 years, therefore it really isnt a steep learning curve

2. The Vikings wont have Favre the focus of the offense that he has been every other year he has been in the NFL. Less passing attempts.

3. In order to shut down the Vikings teams will have to try to stop the run, therefore Favre will see single coverage a lot of the game. It will be very difficult for him to throw a bunch of ints with that type of defensive scheme

4. Favre's arm appears to be healthy unlike last year

5. The Vikings offensive line is one of the best in football meaning Favre wont be rushed into making terrible decisions like he did last year with the Jets a 3-4 years back with the Packers.

his arm appears to be healthy? He's got a bum wing!!! we've heard about it repeatedly. no way it holds up through the whole season

And you're loonier than a loon if you think that Favre's ego won't demand that he's the star of the team by midseason.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

his arm appears to be healthy? He's got a bum wing!!! we've heard about it repeatedly. no way it holds up through the whole season

And you're loonier than a loon if you think that Favre's ego won't demand that he's the star of the team by midseason.

Hes throwing 60 yard strikes in practice. I guess his arm may be bothering him but it certainly doesnt look like it.

I think Favre at 39 will be perfectly happy letting AP run out the clock. Its really hard to make the statement you did as Favre has never had a running back anywhere close to the ability AP has unless you consider Dorsey Levens, Ahman Green, and William Henderson talents comparable to AP.

[DaddyTorgo]

sorry jbergy - don't mean to rain on your parade, i understand you want to be enthusiastic about your team...i just don't see it.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

sorry jbergy - don't mean to rain on your parade, i understand you want to be enthusiastic about your team...i just don't see it.

Its not raining on my parade I watched the Vikings all year last year so I know how crappy their QBs were. When teams are stacking the box against AP and the QBs cant complete 5 yard outs you realize the problem very quickly. Ive also seen Favre thread defenses for the past 17 years and how he seldom misses an open throw. His mistakes whenever I see him come from trying to force something that isnt there which shouldnt be all that common this year.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Ive also seen Favre thread defenses for the past 17 years and how he seldom misses an open throw. His mistakes whenever I see him come from trying to force something that isnt there which shouldnt be all that common this year.

At some point the x in "I've seen him do this for x ammount of years" becomes seriously detrimental. When x=17, he's well within that window. Brett Favre does not want to play QB just to hand the ball off to AP. He's going to chuck it, and he's going to force it, and he's going to do everything in his power to prove he's still got it. And personally, as much as I like Brett Favre, I think this is going to be a disaster of a year. Although the Vikings should see an increase in Jersey sales this year.

[fantom1979]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

5. The Vikings offensive line is one of the best in football meaning Favre wont be rushed into making terrible decisions like he did last year with the Jets and 3-4 years back with the Packers.

Ummm, the Jets gave up 13 less sacks than the Vikings last year. I would be willing to concede some of those sacks are due to the quarterback, but I would have to say that the Jets defensive line was pretty solid last year. Don't forget that the AFC Rushing Leader was Thomas Jones.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by fantom1979

Ummm, the Jets gave up 13 less sacks than the Vikings last year. I would be willing to concede some of those sacks are due to the quarterback, but I would have to say that the Jets defensive line was pretty solid last year. Don't forget that the AFC Rushing Leader was Thomas Jones.

There are some people in this thread that say the Jets easy schedule influenced their wins and stats in a huge way. I would never go that far as its still NFL football and you still have to go out there and win games. TJack is terrible at not getting rid of the ball(plus he was the starting QB in less than half the games) but your point is very valid. I might be underrating the Jets O line from last year.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Dutch

At some point the x in "I've seen him do this for x ammount of years" becomes seriously detrimental. When x=17, he's well within that window. Brett Favre does not want to play QB just to hand the ball off to AP. He's going to chuck it, and he's going to force it, and he's going to do everything in his power to prove he's still got it. And personally, as much as I like Brett Favre, I think this is going to be a disaster of a year. Although the Vikings should see an increase in Jersey sales this year.

Ok. I assume you understand the X's and O's of football correct?

If teams are moving their safties up to try and stop the biggest weapon on the field, how exactly is Favre going to be forcing it? You dont have safety help on the outside WRs if you have to move a safety up therefore Favre will be throwing to players in single coverage the majority of the time. You can say Favre has lost a lot of his ability but Im not understanding how people would think a 39 year old vet very familiar with this offense cant find the right read. This is not going to be a difficult situation for him.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Ok. I assume you understand the X's and O's of football correct?

If teams are moving their safties up to try and stop the biggest weapon on the field, how exactly is Favre going to be forcing it? You dont have safety help on the outside WRs if you have to move a safety up therefore Favre will be throwing to players in single coverage the majority of the time. You can say Favre has lost a lot of his ability but Im not understanding how people would think a 39 year old vet very familiar with this offense cant find the right read. This is not going to be a difficult situation for him.

I understand the X's and O's well enough, thank you. As for Brett Favre, he's the poster-boy of forcing the issue. Just because the Vikings have a good running back does not mean Brett Favre is on easy street. It can help, but I've seen plenty of teams with great running attacks that couldn't produce a capable air attack to compliment the ground game.

If anything, a strong reliance on running the ball puts your team in more situations where you need to make something happen, and Brett Favre will never back down from trying to make something happen. For better or for worse.

While I agree that for a long time, Favre has done way more good than harm, I will also agree that the NFL is no joke and at some point even the great ones falter. Brett Favre is at that point in his career where more often than not, the great ones (if they even make it to year 17), fail.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Brett Favre will never back down from trying to make something happen. For better or for worse.

2003, Favre had Ahman Green who put up 1800+ yards on the ground and another 450 or so receiving. The season ended with an ill advised Favre pass that was intercepted in the playoffs vs the Eagles in overtime.

2007, Favre had Ryan Grant who had around 900 yards in the 2nd half of the season. The season ended with an ill advised Favre pass that was intercepted in the playoffs vs the Giants in overtime.

If recent history says anything, Peterson will have some 1900 yards rushing and your season will end with an ill advised Favre pass in overtime in the playoffs.

[RainMaker]

Peterson put up huge numbers last year with literally no passing game. No deep threat and 8-9 man boxes on every down. Favre makes bad decisions, but he does have a strong arm and does force the secondary to be honest. I don't see how that's not a massive upgrade for the Vikings this year.

Favre will make his dumb picks here and there, but he'll also connect with Berrian on a 60 yard bomb every so often. That 60 yard bomb will get those safeties to play a little farther back and open up a lot more room for Peterson.

[Arles]

Vikings QBs last season combined for 21 TDs (4.7%), 17 picks (3.8%) and 7.2 yards per attempt (with 60% completion). We've already shown how brutal Favre's numbers were last season. So, here's his 3-year averages from 2006-2008:

22 TDs (4.0%), 18 INTs (4.0%) and 6.8 yards/attempt (62% completion). Even if Favre at 40 can match the average of his last 3 seasons (younger and healthier) - is this really an upgrade over last season's Vikings QBs? Every stat is worse than the Frerotte/Jackson combo except completion % (which is 2% better).

[RainMaker]

Put Frerotte/Jackson on the Jets and tell me if they put up those numbers. Also make sure their bicep is torn or whatever. You can't compare two QBs who were in completely different positions. Peyton Manning doesn't finish with a 95 QB rating if he's playing for the 49ers last year.

[Big Fo]

If Favre is healthy for the whole season (a big if granted) I think he's worth one or two more wins than Jackson/Rosenfels.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Put Frerotte/Jackson on the Jets and tell me if they put up those numbers. Also make sure their bicep is torn or whatever. You can't compare two QBs who were in completely different positions. Peyton Manning doesn't finish with a 95 QB rating if he's playing for the 49ers last year.

+1.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Put Frerotte/Jackson on the Jets and tell me if they put up those numbers. Also make sure their bicep is torn or whatever. You can't compare two QBs who were in completely different positions. Peyton Manning doesn't finish with a 95 QB rating if he's playing for the 49ers last year.

The Jets averaged 4.7 ypc on the ground (#5 in NFL), had over 2,000 yards rushing, allowed just 30 sacks and faced the easiest schedule in the NFL last season (9 games against teams drafting in the top 12). Any QB with a pulse would have done pretty well for the Jets with their OL/running game/schedule.

For comparison, the Vikings averaged 4.5 ypc, allowed 43 sacks and faced a much tougher schedule. Playing QB for the Vikings was much tougher than the Jets last season, yet the combo of Frerotte/Jackson outplayed Favre. The fact that the Jets didn't make the playoffs despite playing 9 games against sub 7 win teams is a joke.

[thesloppy]

I think the discussion of Brett facing single man coverage all game long, or that AP faced 8-9 men in the box all game, every game, are a little disingenuous.

Certainly Favre will probably face many better situations because of Peterson, on first down and short yardage, when teams undoubtedly DO stack the line against him, but AP wasn't forcing 9 men in the box on 3rd and long last year, and he's not going to this year either. When the Vikings are in obvious passing situations, teams are still going to bring out double coverage on the receivers, use nickle and dime coverages, and exploit Favre's known weaknesses...and Favre is still going to force it, in many of those situations.

Further, while Peterson and the Vikings OL will give Favre the best short/medium yardage passing situations he's seen in his long career, I think it could easily be argued that this crop of Vikings receivers are also the worst group of receivers he's ever worked with in his long career. Just as many of Favre's INTs come from forcing it into bad coverage, the flip side of that argument that never get mentioned is that many of Favre's TDs ALSO come from forcing it into bad coverage and letting the receiver make the play. If the caliber of wide receiver he's throwing to has dropped, his TD production is likely to drop along the same curve.

Sure, as long as Favre passes only on 1st and 2nd down, in short yardage situations, he's going to face positive matchups, and with the Vikings line and AP, he's likely going to face those short yardage situations more than he would have on any other team in his career....but let's not pretend he's never going to be seeing third down, or long yardage, for the entire season (especially if you're going to throw out the 'do you know football?' nugget), and remember that any down in which Favre is throwing into run coverage, is taking a carry away from Peterson in favorable position, likely on 1st or 2nd down, which is exactly why the move still has a lot of folks scratching their heads. To argue that he'll be getting better coverage in rushing situations implies that Favre was brought in to improve the Vikings' performance on rushing downs and throw play action, which I don't think is the case. I think Favre was brought in to improve the Vikings performance in passing situations, and while some of that will come under better coverages, most of it likely will not, and Favre will still be subject to his usual whimsy under the usual circumstances.

All said, I think he definitely will be getting better protection, and see better coverages on rushing downs, but with his age, missing camp, and the Vikings unproven and suspect WRs and staff, it could easily be a wash, if not worse, than compared to what you would've gotten out of Sagevaris Jacksonfeld.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

All said, I think he definitely will be getting better protection, and see better coverages on rushing downs, but with his age, missing camp, and the Vikings unproven and suspect WRs and staff, it could easily be a wash, if not worse, than compared to what you would've gotten out of Sagevaris Jacksonfeld.

You really think Berrian, Rice, Harvin, Wade is worst than what he had at New York last year? They dont have the big name but as a unit they are pretty darn talented and Berrian is that big play guy Favre works so well with.

[Rizon]

I think the phrase "Beating a Dead Horse" should now be changed to "Beating a Favre".

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

1. This is basically the same offense than Favre ran for 15 years, therefore it really isnt a steep learning curve

I hear that from a lot of Vikings fans but it's still not the same offense. Bevell was the QB coach for three years, not the OC. It's not the same receivers and there is no timing there. It's not identical at all.

Originally Posted by jbergey22

2. The Vikings wont have Favre the focus of the offense that he has been every other year he has been in the NFL. Less passing attempts.

If you're looking for a "game manager," Favre isn't the guy. He's a gunslinger; that's what he does. If that's what the Vikings want, they are asking Favre to do something he has never done in his entire NFL career.

Originally Posted by jbergey22

3. In order to shut down the Vikings teams will have to try to stop the run, therefore Favre will see single coverage a lot of the game. It will be very difficult for him to throw a bunch of ints with that type of defensive scheme

I agree that this is the best thing that Favre and the Vikings have going for them. I disagree that it won't be difficult for Favre to threw INTs. He's the all-time pick king. It's a by-product of his style. He threw 21 picks for a higher interception rate than he had last year in 2003 when Ahman Green rushed for almost 1,900 yards.

Originally Posted by jbergey22

4. Favre's arm appears to be healthy unlike last year

Favre went into last season with a healthy shoulder and didn't hurt it until in the season. This year he had surgery in what -- April? No way that arm is healthier now than it was last August.

Originally Posted by jbergey22

5. The Vikings offensive line is one of the best in football meaning Favre wont be rushed into making terrible decisions like he did last year with the Jets and 3-4 years back with the Packers.

Check out the 1998 Packers. Favre throws 23 picks (above his career average) on a great defensive team, lead by Reggie White who had 16 sacks. Team goes 11-5 and loses in the first round the playoffs to San Franciso when Favre throws two picks.

Trust me, I understand the allure. Kansas City in the early '90s had a great defense and we kept flaming out with our three yards and a cloud of dust offense. We went out and got Joe Montana and Marcus Allen to try and get us to the promised land. We make it to conference title game and Montana has the worst game of his career.

My point is I've seen this story before.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

You really think Berrian, Rice, Harvin, Wade is worst than what he had at New York last year? They dont have the big name but as a unit they are pretty darn talented and Berrian is that big play guy Favre works so well with.

I think they're unproven. I'd agree that they certainly have the potential to be better than that Jets squad, but they've got to prove it first, and that's still the bottom of the measuring stick. Presonally, I think Berrian, while definitely talented and able to stretch the field, doesn't match up to any of the #1 WRs Favre had while at GB, but I'm also open to the fact that they could all prove me wrong this year.

[Arles]

Schefter - "Some Minnesota Vikings think Tarvaris Jackson gave them a better shot than Brett Favre"

Some Minnesota Vikings think Tarvaris Jackson gave them a better shot than Brett Favre - ESPN

[Mustang]

I'll predict that Brett Favre retires again before week 1.

[Zelig]

I will not allow Favre to be besmirched by rantings of an unruly mob.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by Zelig

I will not allow Favre to be besmirched by rantings of an unruly mob.

Invite him over to play a round of golf and play basketball on your court inside your home at 6721 Foxpointe Road Fort Worth, TX 76132 if you love him so much.

edit: Yes I looked it up on Google maps and saw the real estate listing for it. Who really lives there?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Invite him over to play a round of golf and play basketball on your court inside your home at 6721 Foxpointe Road Fort Worth, TX 76132 if you love him so much.

edit: Yes I looked it up on Google maps and saw the real estate listing for it. Who really lives there?

lol

[Zelig]

I don't think he even likes playing basketball.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Mustang

2003, Favre had Ahman Green who put up 1800+ yards on the ground and another 450 or so receiving. The season ended with an ill advised Favre pass that was intercepted in the playoffs vs the Eagles in overtime.

2007, Favre had Ryan Grant who had around 900 yards in the 2nd half of the season. The season ended with an ill advised Favre pass that was intercepted in the playoffs vs the Giants in overtime.

If recent history says anything, Peterson will have some 1900 yards rushing and your season will end with an ill advised Favre pass in overtime in the playoffs.

And it should happen vs the Cowboys or the Redskins.

[Arles]

This is starting to become a bigger story:

Source: Minnesota Vikings locker room facing 'schism' over Brett Favre arrival - ESPN

What two knowledgeable NFL people described earlier this week as an "issue" in the Minnesota Vikings locker room was described Wednesday by a third informed person as a "schism."

The issue is quarterback Brett Favre, and the schism is the preference that certain Vikings players have for specific quarterbacks.

Sources with knowledge of the Vikings locker-room dynamics say some players believe Tarvaris Jackson gives the Vikings the best chance to win, while other players believe Sage Rosenfels gives the team the best chance to win -- which is one of the new twists to this storyline. In the words of one NFL source, Favre has "little support" in the locker room as Minnesota prepares for its Monday night preseason game against the Houston Texans.

Favre, who signed only last week, struggled in his one preseason appearance but could easily win backers with improved performance and victories. But as it now stands, one NFL source said these locker-room issues stem back to long before the team signed Favre, and it's possible they will not be going away any time soon unless Favre can completely silence them with his play.

Vikings coach Brad Childress was even asked Wednesday about the speculation.

"I've seen the same reports you've seen," Childress said. "Those are opinions. It's hard to shoot holes in an opinion. It's just that -- an opinion. I certainly don't see it."

Asked if he addressed with the players that friendships must become secondary to winning, Childress said: "I think all of them will cite that business is business. Whether they like it or not, that's the way it is. As I told Tarvaris, 'I don't expect you to like it.' He's a highly competitive guy, and he came back and played very well. That benefits him, that benefits us. There's no downside to that. I don't expect those guys to like it. But I expect them to deal with it and go forward. And by and large, that's exactly what's happened."

If Favre plays well, it's possible the issue could be silenced and the schism could evaporate. But it's also possible that if Favre struggles, the drama that accompanied his entrance will only increase, threatening to affect the Vikings' season and Childress' future.

[Jas_lov]

Good, hopefully this is true. If Favre struggles early it could turn into a massive trainwreck which is exactly what I want to see. The Vikings schedule is kind of like the Packers- favorable early and much tougher towards the end so they need to get off to a good start.

[sovereignstar]

*yawn*

[RedKingGold]

SCHISM!

[miked]

If Vikings players really think Jackson gives them a better shot to win over Favre, it really speaks to the intelligence levels of their players.

[k0ruptr]

I don't think Jackson is that bad of a QB really. Give him a decent oline and he could be solid. He just struggles immensely when facing a blitz or blitzes

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

I don't think Jackson is that bad of a QB really. Give him a decent oline and he could be solid. He just struggles immensely when facing a blitz or blitzes

Really? I was always under the assumption that MIN had built a pretty good O-line. By definition you can't really pick up a blitz with your OL, you either need to keep the backs and TE's in or have a QB to make good, quick decisions. It's the latter that makes a quarterback NFL-starter material.

[Mustang]

Wait.. teammates might not have a good opinion of Favre because someone missed all the OTA stuff, came into camp several weeks later after saying they weren't coming in, getting $12M and is probably making every effort to not blend in with the team given his past preference to have his own locker room or dress in the coaches room..

Huh.. go figure.

[miked]

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

I don't think Jackson is that bad of a QB really. Give him a decent oline and he could be solid. He just struggles immensely when facing a blitz or blitzes

Well, there are a log of teams that blitz. He was terrible in the first 2 games against IND and GB, he then took a hiatus and had solid games when passing 10 times against DET and 17 times against ARI. He had a fairly decent game vs. ATL then got stuffed by the Giants. He's a great QB if you have a defense like the superbowl winning Ravens. If you need to move the ball effectively, that could be a different story.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by miked

then got stuffed by the Giants.

Tom Brady got stuffed by that Giants defense...

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by miked

Well, there are a log of teams that blitz. He was terrible in the first 2 games against IND and GB, he then took a hiatus and had solid games when passing 10 times against DET and 17 times against ARI. He had a fairly decent game vs. ATL then got stuffed by the Giants. He's a great QB if you have a defense like the superbowl winning Ravens. If you need to move the ball effectively, that could be a different story.

Of course this is what he is after 19 games. Everyone seems to assume that he won't/can't get better. As I said earlier, why even take a young QB in the draft if you're only going to give him 19 games before giving up? You're better off using those picks shoring up the defense and OL and picking up a journeyman Jeff Garcia/Chad Pennington-type QB every other offseason.

And in what universe is going 16 of 26, 239 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT (not to mention a victory) against the best defense in the league getting "stuffed"? Oh, and let's not forget that he threw a 54 yard TD pass in the 4th quarter, then followed that up with the game winning FG drive.

[PackerFanatic]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

SCHISM!

+1

[Kodos]

I can never see PackerFanatic's name without hearing it in my head in the Tears For Fears rewrite by Antmeister.

[Sun Tzu]

More Interceptions.

[Epi_862]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Interceptions.

I dont even know what that means but i bet its something controversial.

[Arles]

Favre now is saying he has a cracked rib:

Minnesota Vikings' Brett Favre says he may have cracked rib - ESPN

Either he's falling apart faster than even I thought or he's starting the "excuses" for a bad outing. Either way, the drama continues with Brett.

[mckerney]

He may be old, but he sure can still deliver a cheap shot.

[k0ruptr]

haha +1

[jbergey22]

Sure am happy he decided to come back. And I find some of the comments quite funny at the moment.