Atheism

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I may think I know which it is, but it is only God whose opinion counts.

Were we both atheists, we might both be able to mount plausible arguments about whether the act was right or wrong ... but would either of us actually be right?

Originally Posted by st.cronin

For an atheist, that's true - for a theist, it isn't. That's what I've been trying to illustrate.

This doesn't work at all.

Since God's opinion is all that counts and no one knows what God's opinion really is - until you're dead and being judged - then it makes no difference whether you're an athiest or a theist. Whether you believe in God or not, the choices you make in this life about what is right or wrong are your own.

If God exists then He'll be there, at the end, for both atheists and theists alike.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by Cork

As someone who was raised Lutheran (Missouri Synod), and later became a Catholic (Wife is Catholic), I must be experiencing a different type of Catholic Church. I find the above statements completely untrue and have never once ever been told what to believe or how to act in the 13 years that I have attended mass.

I find the Catholic mass surprisingly refreshing and much more relaxing that the more stringent Lutheran services that I attended while growing up. Given a choice, I would clearly opt to be a Catholic over being a Lutheran any day. I have nothing against the Lutheran Church, but I enjoy being a Catholic much more.

-Cork

It's not my intention to offend you, Cork, but being a Catholic doesn't just mean turning up to the services. It means living by Catholic dogma. That is the essence of Catholicism. That is why the Protestant movement is called protest(ant) - it protests against the imposition of Catholic dogma.

Now they're not going to send the heavies around to force you but you are expected to live by Catholic dogma and not by your own interpretation of the bible.

[Cork]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

It's not my intention to offend you, Cork, but being a Catholic doesn't just mean turning up to the services. It means living by Catholic dogma. That is the essence of Catholicism. That is why the Protestant movement is called protest(ant) - it protests against the imposition of Catholic dogma.

Now they're not going to send the heavies around to force you but you are expected to live by Catholic dogma and not by your own interpretation of the bible.

I would tend to argue that the above is true for pretty much any religion. If you are a Baptist for example, would you not be expected to follow the teachings of the Baptist church?

I also believe that many people "grow" into their religion over time. Those of us who believe, probably started out being dragged to church as a child and probably hating it. As we grew up we probably started to rebel against it because "church was stupid" or "it's a waste of time and I don't get much from it". As teens become young adultsand young adults further age, many start to realize just what it means to be a "Christian" and more specifically your denomination. Church and beliefs start to become more refined and many start to feel more comfortable with religion. Some return to their church, others stay on the fringes and many don't return. That is a personal choice.

For me as a converted Catholic who was raised Lutheran, I am just starting to grow into the Catholic faith. I will always consider myself a Christian first and a Catholic second, but I am definitely developing a deeper appreciation for the Catholic Church, though I will always probably be at odds with some of it's teaching.

-Cork

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Cork

I can tell you from what I have observed in my 13 years as a converted catholic, that most of my fellow Catholics, use birth control, many are pro-choice and most generally are indifferent to the Pope.

Then what makes these people Catholic, outside of the text on the front of the church they go to on Sunday?

[Cork]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Then what makes these people Catholic, outside of the text on the front of the church they go to on Sunday?

That's a good question. My guess would be that "these people" were born Catholic, believe in God, and have chosen to continue to be a part of the Catholic religion. I guess that would make them Catholics.

If I quit the Catholic religion tomorrow for whatever reason, it would not diminish my belief in God at all. I would simply become a Christian who does not belong to a specific Christian religion.

-Cork

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by Cork

I would tend to argue that the above is true for pretty much any religion. If you are a Baptist for example, would you not be expected to follow the teachings of the Baptist church?

It is the nature of churches that they will try to maintain control over their communities by appealing to "faith" - ie accepting the teachings of that church. With Protestant churches there is a little hypocrisy in that because the very essence of Protestantism is that each person has a personal relationship with God and that will inevitably mean different views in different members. But as you will notice there are any number of Protestant churches with different teachings, perhaps different emphases. These churches form when people who have a similar set of interpretations collect into a community. Anglicans, Baptists etc.

Nevertheless there is usually a degree of individual interpretation allowed in each church.

I also believe that many people "grow" into their religion over time. Those of us who believe, probably started out being dragged to church as a child and probably hating it. As we grew up we probably started to rebel against it because "church was stupid" or "it's a waste of time and I don't get much from it". As teens become young adultsand young adults further age, many start to realize just what it means to be a "Christian" and more specifically your denomination. Church and beliefs start to become more refined and many start to feel more comfortable with religion. Some return to their church, others stay on the fringes and many don't return. That is a personal choice.

I have no problem with that. But the defining characteristic of the Catholic church is that its members should abide by its dogma. So, to "grow into" the Catholic church is to accept the dogma lock, stock and barrel.

You can't pick and choose with the Catholic church.

For me as a converted Catholic who was raised Lutheran, I am just starting to grow into the Catholic faith. I will always consider myself a Christian first and a Catholic second, but I am definitely developing a deeper appreciation for the Catholic Church, though I will always probably be at odds with some of it's teaching.

I'm sure the church will be happy with that but you haven't "grown into" the Catholic church as long as you maintain that last sentence. You cannot be "at odds" with Catholic teaching. The church does sometimes seem to tolerate that but with its losing members in the developed world at an alarming rate it tends not to push things too hard.

[Cork]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

This doesn't work at all.

Since God's opinion is all that counts and no one knows what God's opinion really is - until you're dead and being judged - then it makes no difference whether you're an athiest or a theist. Whether you believe in God or not, the choices you make in this life about what is right or wrong are your own.

If God exists then He'll be there, at the end, for both atheists and theists alike.

For the sake of argument, lets assume that there is a God.

How would an Atheist's situation be handled? Would God simply look the other way and admit the Atheist into heaven despite that persons steadfast refusal to believe? If that happened, would it not make a mockery of all religions by saying that one could be admitted to Gods kingdom without even believing in God?

-Cork

[Cork]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

It is the nature of churches that they will try to maintain control over their communities by appealing to "faith" - ie accepting the teachings of that church. With Protestant churches there is a little hypocrisy in that because the very essence of Protestantism is that each person has a personal relationship with God and that will inevitably mean different views in different members. But as you will notice there are any number of Protestant churches with different teachings, perhaps different emphases. These churches form when people who have a similar set of interpretations collect into a community. Anglicans, Baptists etc.

Nevertheless there is usually a degree of individual interpretation allowed in each church.



I have no problem with that. But the defining characteristic of the Catholic church is that its members should abide by its dogma. So, to "grow into" the Catholic church is to accept the dogma lock, stock and barrel.

You can't pick and choose with the Catholic church.



You haven't "grown into" the Catholic church as long as you maintain that last sentence. You cannot be "at odds" with Catholic teaching.

While this might be true on paper, reality is a far different picture. I will consider myself a catholic for as long as I remain a member of that religion. I will also disagree with some of it's views. Many of those in my parish will do the same. It is what it is.

-Cork

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Cork

For the sake of argument, lets assume that there is a God.

How would an Atheist's situation be handled? Would God simply look the other way and admit the Atheist into heaven despite that persons steadfast refusal to believe? If that happened, would it not make a mockery of all religions by saying that one could be admitted to Gods kingdom without even believing in God?

Yes, it would make a mockery of religion. But if there is a god (and I'm talking about a non-Christian/whatever-specific 'god'), I don't see why having a 'religion' would be a neccessary requirement.

I prefer to think that if there were some sort of god-esque being who gave us an eternal life after death, it would take in to account the general life that I've lived rather than how often I worshipped it, or how many days I went to church, or which specific branch of worship I followed.

I just don't see why a being powerful enough to qualify as a god would require a religion setup to worship it. The very idea that it would require such a thing points out to me as much as anything else the very human origins of religion.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Cork

While this might be true on paper, reality is a far different picture. I will consider myself a catholic for as long as I remain a member of that religion. I will also disagree with some of it's views. Many of those in my parish will do the same. It is what it is.

Sure, but to this outsider it doesn't make sense. It's little different from someone telling me that they are an atheist, but they believe in god. To be Catholic is different than to be Christian as you well know. The umbrella term "Christian" basically just means that you accept Jesus was the son of god, as well as what's in the NT. Outside of that, people choose to display or interpret their specific beliefs in a number of ways.

To be Catholic however is to believe that the church and clergy have a special bond, through the person of the pope mainly, that is closer than your own. It is a less individualistic form of Christianity (and, you could argue, contrary to the NT in a number of ways), and more concerned with ceremonies.

To say you are Catholic but disagree with the pope's views on a number of topics, to me seems... Hypocritical probably isn't the word, but at the very least it doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by Cork

For the sake of argument, lets assume that there is a God.

How would an Atheist's situation be handled? Would God simply look the other way and admit the Atheist into heaven despite that persons steadfast refusal to believe? If that happened, would it not make a mockery of all religions by saying that one could be admitted to Gods kingdom without even believing in God?

-Cork

If God was actually who he/she/it is claimed to be by most faiths, then he would be wise enough to understand a thirst for finding other truths, and not be so vindictive. I mean, if there is a God, he created me...created my brain. If he didn't like it when his creations eschewed the concrete acceptance of him, then why didn't he just remove that part in the laboratory stage? Is it because he was hoping we'd just choose not to look at alternatives?

Is God an insecure, passive agressive girlfriend who says "Well, you can go out with your friends tonight, rather than spend time with me." only to then send you to relationship purgatory because you took her up on the offer? Wow...no thanks..it's hard enough dealing with that shit now, while I'm young. I could only how depressing it would be to placate someone for eternity.

If there is a God, and an afterlife, and he is so vindictive as to send me to hell for digging around a little in this sandbox he so intricately created, then heaven is no place I want to be a part of.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

Just to throw my 2 cents in, I will say that to me all religions seem pretty much equally unlikely to be true and most border on the absurd. People once worshipped the sun and the wind. As people evolved, so did their beliefs. For me, the pinnacle of human development is the point where we can all look at the universe through eyes not hindered by archaic beliefs based on myths, legends and "holy" documents.

But that is just me stating my position without intent to insult.

I agree with this 100%. It's presumptuous to think that everyone else who believed in the ancient religions and worshiped Zeus or Ra were wrong. Or that everyone who today believes in a different religion is wrong. BUT, people always say, "the religion that I believe in is true." That just doesn't make sense.

Christians believe that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. are going to hell. I find that kind of thinking to be absurd, especially since the religion that you follow is largely determined by where you live and how you were raised.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Cork

For me as a converted Catholic who was raised Lutheran, I am just starting to grow into the Catholic faith. I will always consider myself a Christian first and a Catholic second, but I am definitely developing a deeper appreciation for the Catholic Church, though I will always probably be at odds with some of it's teaching.

-Cork

Cafeterianism FTW!

[Cork]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Sure, but to this outsider it doesn't make sense. It's little different from someone telling me that they are an atheist, but they believe in god. To be Catholic is different than to be Christian as you well know. The umbrella term "Christian" basically just means that you accept Jesus was the son of god, as well as what's in the NT. Outside of that, people choose to display or interpret their specific beliefs in a number of ways.

To be Catholic however is to believe that the church and clergy have a special bond, through the person of the pope mainly, that is closer than your own. It is a less individualistic form of Christianity (and, you could argue, contrary to the NT in a number of ways), and more concerned with ceremonies.

To say you are Catholic but disagree with the pope's views on a number of topics, to me seems... Hypocritical probably isn't the word, but at the very least it doesn't make a lot of sense.

I think it is fair to simply say that you and I will have to agree to disagree on this.

-Cork

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by Cork

How would an Atheist's situation be handled? Would God simply look the other way and admit the Atheist into heaven despite that persons steadfast refusal to believe? If that happened, would it not make a mockery of all religions by saying that one could be admitted to Gods kingdom without even believing in God?

Originally Posted by KWhit

Christians believe that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. are going to hell. I find that kind of thinking to be absurd, especially since the religion that you follow is largely determined by where you live and how you were raised.

Actually, this isn't entirely true with Catholicism. Common misconception (even among the faithful). From the Catechism (spoilered for length):

Spoiler

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body ... This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church ... Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

One of my favorite ways of describing it is actually from the Chronicles of Narnia - 'The Last Battle' (I'm quoting from a website, not the book, so I'm sorry if some of this is off):

Spoiler

"But I said, 'Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash.' He answered, 'Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me.'...
"I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, 'Lord, is it then true... that thou and Tash are one?'
"The lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, 'It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him.'
"But I said also, 'Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days.'
'Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek."

The language is a bit odd there, since the story is being told by a Calormene (who have a distinctly different 'voice' then the rest of the characters), but the sense, I think, comes across.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by Cork

While this might be true on paper, reality is a far different picture. I will consider myself a catholic for as long as I remain a member of that religion. I will also disagree with some of it's views. Many of those in my parish will do the same. It is what it is.

-Cork

I'm sure there are many "catholics" who feel the same but, in truth, you're just turning the Catholic church into another Protestant one - where individuals choose their own interpretations. Society in the developed world has moved on in its enthusiasm for individual freedom to the point where the Catholic mentality simply no longer has any appeal except for traditionalists and the Catholic church is now too weak here to enforce its dogma.

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

But the defining characteristic of the Catholic church is that its members should abide by its dogma. So, to "grow into" the Catholic church is to accept the dogma lock, stock and barrel.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

To say you are Catholic but disagree with the pope's views on a number of topics, to me seems... Hypocritical probably isn't the word, but at the very least it doesn't make a lot of sense.

It partly goes back to infallibility. Disagreeing with one of the "truths" of the Church is an entirely different matter - for instance, it's hard to call yourself a Catholic if you don't believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Disagreeing with the teachings of the Church on homosexuality, contraception, etc... something that is not a proclaimed tenet of the faith is on a different level. Not all the teachings of the Church are dogmatic.

[Cork]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

I'm sure there are many "catholics" who feel the same but, in truth, you're just turning the Catholic church into another Protestant one - where individuals choose their own interpretations. Society in the developed world has moved on in its enthusiasm for individual freedom to the point where the Catholic mentality simply no longer has any appeal except for traditionalists and the Catholic church is now too weak here to enforce its dogma.

You have raised some good points here, and have made me realize that I probably do not fully understand what it fully means to be Catholic. That being said, all of this dialogue still does not take away my belief and acceptance of Jesus Christ as my savior. That belief will continue to be the foundation of my existance with or without organized religion.

-Cork

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Cork

For the sake of argument, lets assume that there is a God.

How would an Atheist's situation be handled? Would God simply look the other way and admit the Atheist into heaven despite that persons steadfast refusal to believe? If that happened, would it not make a mockery of all religions by saying that one could be admitted to Gods kingdom without even believing in God?

-Cork

These questions are completely irrelevant to how one decides what is right and what is wrong in this life.

It's like taking a test. There is a right answer and a wrong answer to each question, but, unless you have the answer key, you have nothing to guide other than your own knowledge. You are the one answering the questions. At the time you might think the answer is right, only to learn that, according to the key, it's wrong. That doesn't really help you at all while taking the test.

Originally Posted by Cork

For the sake of argument, lets assume that there is a God.

How would an Atheist's situation be handled? Would God simply look the other way and admit the Atheist into heaven despite that persons steadfast refusal to believe? If that happened, would it not make a mockery of all religions by saying that one could be admitted to Gods kingdom without even believing in God?

As for this question. Let's assume there is a good. I think any God worth worshipping, would undoubtedly admit the Atheist into heaven despite that persons steadfast refusal to believe. Assuming the Atheist led a good life, was kind to others, was compassionate, why wouldn't He?

I have a really hard time accepting or believing in a God who supposively rewards people who live good lives in the afterlife, but only on the condition that they take this leap of "faith." In essence this God s simply condeming people for using the power of the mind, which He apparently blessed us with. So it all just comes down to some sort of test?

For example, on one hand, you have a guy who cheats on his wfe and then ends up killing a kid in a drunk driving accident. He then finds God, is born again, repents, has faith, lives the rest of his life trying to do good, etc, etc. This guy, he gets into "heaven" because he "believes" and has "faith". On the other hand, you have some poor guy or girl who doesn't believe in God, for whatever reason, but spends their entire life helping sick children, the elderly, sacrificing their lives for others, doing good, just because he/she thinks it's the right thing to do. This guy or gal is flat out of luck when it comes to the afterlife? Too bad, so sad, Hell's that way?

While those examples my mock religion, if it's true it would appear to make an even worse mockery of God.

[Bonegavel]

My main beef with religion is that while most see it as a day to day thing, I've always see the big picture. I don't give 2 shits about this piddly existence here for what, maybe 100 years when religion harps on ETERNITY!

The bottom line for me isn't "did I obey the 10 commandments every day" or "did I go to church a lot." The bottom line for me is making it into Heaven since the alternative is eternity in HELL.

According to the Baptist church, to get into heaven I needed to Accept Jesus Christ into my heart (and I guess that gets you written into the book of life?). That is it. I don't ever have to attend church. I don't have to refrain from cursing. Hell, I can kill somebody and I'm still going to heaven. Once you accept god into your heart, you are in like Flynn.

That is what the bible teaches (or so they'd have me believe). There is no purgatory, there is no saying Hail Mary's, they only way to god is through jesus. Right?

But when you talk to christians it's always "you have to be christ-like" and stuff. I just think I need to do enough to get into heaven because there will be no suffering in heaven so I'm guessing I won't be concerned that I didn't lead the greatest life since I have and eternity with no suffering.

That is a major flaw, to me and God would know that and therefore the bible should be like 10 verses telling you to accept jesus to get into heaven and not worry about the rest since we'll have an eternity to worry about this later. Instead it goes on and on about non-end-game stuff. Cut to the chase, baby.

[Cork]

Originally Posted by Celeval

It partly goes back to infallibility. Disagreeing with one of the "truths" of the Church is an entirely different matter - for instance, it's hard to call yourself a Catholic if you don't believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Disagreeing with the teachings of the Church on homosexuality, contraception, etc... something that is not a proclaimed tenet of the faith is on a different level. Not all the teachings of the Church are dogmatic.

Thank you Celeval for saying what I had been trying to say.

-Cork

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by Bonegavel

According to the Baptist church, to get into heaven I needed to Accept Jesus Christ into my heart (and I guess that gets you written into the book of life?). That is it. I don't ever have to attend church. I don't have to refrain from cursing. Hell, I can kill somebody and I'm still going to heaven. Once you accept god into your heart, you are in like Flynn.

That is what the bible teaches (or so they'd have me believe). There is no purgatory, there is no saying Hail Mary's, they only way to god is through jesus. Right?

I'm not speaking from a place of much knowledge here - Baptist isn't my thing - but the answer I've been given to a similar note before is that if you truly "Accept Jesus Christ into your heart", then you will attend church, want to not sin, want to not kill someone, etc. If you're still off doing much sinful activity, then you haven't truly accepted Christ.

Oh, and you wouldn't catch a (most? any? all?) Baptist dead saying a Hail Mary.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Celeval

I'm not speaking from a place of much knowledge here - Baptist isn't my thing - but the answer I've been given to a similar note before is that if you truly "Accept Jesus Christ into your heart", then you will attend church, want to not sin, want to not kill someone, etc. If you're still off doing much sinful activity, then you haven't truly accepted Christ.

I'm not sure how I classify myself religiously, but the above quote shows where I often find myself at odds with religious people. They like to state that the only way to heaven is through Jesus...specifically through belief and acceptance of his sacrifice. I've always thought that belief and acceptance were pointless and that "through Jesus" should be more along the lines of living like he did and with his morality. It just really rings hollow to me when people say words don't matter and only belief does.

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I'm not sure how I classify myself religiously, but the above quote shows where I often find myself at odds with religious people. They like to state that the only way to heaven is through Jesus...specifically through belief and acceptance of his sacrifice. I've always thought that belief and acceptance were pointless and that "through Jesus" should be more along the lines of living like he did and with his morality. It just really rings hollow to me when people say words don't matter and only belief does.

Very different based on different churches. Check out my post above with the two spoiler tags and read the first.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Celeval

Very different based on different churches. Check out my post above with the two spoiler tags and read the first.

That is still quite vague. "Salvation comes from Christ through the Church". When I read that, the only thing that makes that potentially make sense is to do what he did, or what he taught. The church can probably help us understand those teachings, but just the "belief" of who he is or what he was seems meaningless. I can't help but have the personal feeling that Christians have it close but made a fundamental misstep somewhere along the way which got them bogged down in the details while still missing the general point. Of course, I could be wrong.

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by BrianD

The church can probably help us understand those teachings, but just the "belief" of who he is or what he was seems meaningless. I can't help but have the personal feeling that Christians have it close but made a fundamental misstep somewhere along the way which got them bogged down in the details while still missing the general point. Of course, I could be wrong.

Fair enough. Personally, the belief is the basis of my faith. The rest of it all comes from that.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

If God was actually who he/she/it is claimed to be by most faiths, then he would be wise enough to understand a thirst for finding other truths, and not be so vindictive. I mean, if there is a God, he created me...created my brain. If he didn't like it when his creations eschewed the concrete acceptance of him, then why didn't he just remove that part in the laboratory stage? Is it because he was hoping we'd just choose not to look at alternatives?

Is God an insecure, passive agressive girlfriend who says "Well, you can go out with your friends tonight, rather than spend time with me." only to then send you to relationship purgatory because you took her up on the offer? Wow...no thanks..it's hard enough dealing with that shit now, while I'm young. I could only how depressing it would be to placate someone for eternity.

If there is a God, and an afterlife, and he is so vindictive as to send me to hell for digging around a little in this sandbox he so intricately created, then heaven is no place I want to be a part of.

Well said Karlifornia.

[Cork]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

If there is a God, and an afterlife, and he is so vindictive as to send me to hell for digging around a little in this sandbox he so intricately created, then heaven is no place I want to be a part of.

Do you really believe what you posted here? If there is a God, you would rather suffer greatly for all eternity than be admitted to heaven? To further clarify, I will assume that going to hell is very bad and that going to heaven is very good.

-Cork

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Celeval;1840445

There absolutely are shades of gray, both in the Christian/Catholic morality, in the Church, and (I believe) in God's eyes. To go Old Testament for a change, you have "Thou shalt not kill", but you also have "There is an appointed time for everything [...

a time to kill and a time to heal".

Originally Posted by st.cronin

For an atheist, that's true - for a theist, it isn't. That's what I've been trying to illustrate.

The bible itself flip flops on right and wrong, it indeed CREATES a subjective right and wrong for its readers. If the Bible creates a subjective right and wrong, how can right and wrong be black and white for the followers of said book? I state again that I disagree with your assertion that for a Christian there is no relativity in this situation.

I'll let it go for now, it has definitely been an interesting topic though, thank you for bringing it about =)

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Cork

Do you really believe what you posted here? If there is a God, you would rather suffer greatly for all eternity than be admitted to heaven? To further clarify, I will assume that going to hell is very bad and that going to heaven is very good.

-Cork

I don't mean to speak for anyone, but I think it is hard to properly evaluate the afterlife if you don't really believe in it. By the same token, even Christian religions seem to have widely different opinions on what Hell is. Is it a great pit of firey damnation with eternal suffering, or is it just a place without the warmth of God's love (which some could argue is no different than this world)?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Cork

Do you really believe what you posted here? If there is a God, you would rather suffer greatly for all eternity than be admitted to heaven? To further clarify, I will assume that going to hell is very bad and that going to heaven is very good.

-Cork

I think his point is that if a mere mortal such as ourselves can show more understanding and compassion and forgiveness than GOD then perhaps we're praising the wrong deity?

[Neon_Chaos]

Ok. Need to get some things off my chest. Figured this would be the best place to do so.

I was raised a Catholic in a third world country.

Throughout the my 26 years of life here in the Philippines, I have seen so many things that have made me question my faith and the existence of a loving God. There is so much suffering in this world that, if there is a supreme being out there, I don't think it cares much if we worship it or not. I sure don't think he interferes in our daily lives whatsoever.

I do not presume to know if there is a God or not. I do all the Catholic stuff that I do because I grew up into that culture. I am mostly an agnostic now.

I do hold a set of beliefs based on things I've seen, books I've read, and people I've talked to.

I believe that the meaning of life is not a question to be answered or a problem to be solved but, instead, a journey to be taken and enjoyed as much as possible.

I believe in doing no harm unto others until your own existence is in danger.

I think that the afterlife is best set aside until your dead. The concepts of heaven and hell are, to me, just an antiquated form of control in order to keep the teeming masses in check. Worst case scenario is that you won't exist, hence, you won't be able to worry at all about it.

I believe that religion is just another label that tends to set humanity against each other, like the color of your skin, how much money you make, or your nationality. If we got rid of all those labels, we'd come down to one conclusion, that we are all mortal, and we are all human (which is one huge universal label. Heh).

Whew. I'm finally glad that I got that off my chest.

[RendeR]

Very well stated NC, very nice. and for the most part, I agree entirely.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Cork

Do you really believe what you posted here? If there is a God, you would rather suffer greatly for all eternity than be admitted to heaven? To further clarify, I will assume that going to hell is very bad and that going to heaven is very good.

-Cork

That argument only works if its clear which God/Religion is correct - otherwise you're stating that you should pick a random religion and cross your fingers that you're right because otherwise you know you're burning, but now you've picked one you've a small chance of being right ...

IMHO any God who relies upon someone winning the lottery (ie. guessing the correct religion) in order to go to heaven has his priorities a little wacky.

I don't believe that God would punish anyone for not worshipping them - after all by not making it clear which religion is the correct one (or even if there is a God) he's loaded the dice against people choosing the right way in which to show appreciation to him.

If it was so important to him then I'm pretty sure there would be neon clouds floating over head with large signs indicating how to worship him properly - after all he's 'God'

[Bonegavel]

Seems that if there is a god, he doesn't give a shit one way or the other. He could have created us as immortal supermen with nothing but pleasure and fun all eternity long. He didn't.

What we do have are times of both good and bad. Admittedly, some humans seem to get more from one column or the other, but the human body is equally capable of experience pain and pleasure.

Everyone has been sick, or had a headache, or broke a bone, or scraped a knee, etc. etc. and knows what it's like to feel pain. I can't say the opposite for everyone, since a lot of people in the world have only ever known pain, but most of that is or has been inflicted by other humans. But we know the human body can and does experience both.

God could have made a world of only one or the other but didn't. We can pleasure and pain. That tells me that god doesn't care one way or the other since he couldn't done something about it.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Cork

Do you really believe what you posted here? If there is a God, you would rather suffer greatly for all eternity than be admitted to heaven? To further clarify, I will assume that going to hell is very bad and that going to heaven is very good.

-Cork

There's a practical element here - presumably, I can't "fool" god into thinking I've given myself over to him, that I've bought into the system, that I don't think he's a petty and vengeful and unjust god. If I happen to feel and think those things (or if I happen to feel and think that he doesn't exist, or Jesus doesn't exist), it doesn't really matter what I say publically, right? God will know the scam.

Faith born soley out of fear of hell or a promise of heaven - is that really faith?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Bonegavel

Seems that if there is a god, he doesn't give a shit one way or the other. He could have created us as immortal supermen with nothing but pleasure and fun all eternity long. He didn't.

That assumes he's an all-powerful god, an idea that's too quickly conceded.

What if he came along after the creation of the earth? What if he/it's just a spirtual collection of past souls that can benefit those that seek him out in ways we can't understand? What if there's a billion gods? What if everyone becomes a god upon death? What if god has very, very limited power and can only intervene on earth a small amount, though he longs to intervene more? What if god's dead? What if gods die and are replaced by new gods? What if god isn't a concious being, but merely a collection of good and bad energy that can be harnassed by those who have connected with this spirtuality?

The point is, whatever one thinks, odds are one is way off.

[Marc Vaughan]

but merely a collection of good and bad energy that can be harnassed by those who have connected with this spirtuality?

The force is strong in this idea me thinks

[Bonegavel]

Originally Posted by molson

That assumes he's an all-powerful god, an idea that's too quickly conceded.

What if he came along after the creation of the earth? What if he/it's just a spirtual collection of past souls that can benefit those that seek him out in ways we can't understand? What if there's a billion gods? What if everyone becomes a god upon death? What if god has very, very limited power and can only intervene on earth a small amount, though he longs to intervene more? What if god's dead? What if gods die and are replaced by new gods? What if god isn't a concious being, but merely a collection of good and bad energy that can be harnassed by those who have connected with this spirtuality?

The point is, whatever one thinks, odds are one is way off.

Did you read my post from a few pages ago? I almost thought I posted this.

[Schmidty]

I just watched the entire PBS version of "The Elegant Universe". I really like the idea of string theory. I look forward to seeing what happens in that area of physics in the future.

As a believer of God, I am comforted by science. I am as baffled by atheists, as atheists are of me.

Of course, I'm sure this has all been discussed here, but I've stayed out of it until now. I probably will after this post. I doubt anyone will change their mind because of this thread, although I guess it's possible.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

As a believer of God, I am comforted by science. I am as baffled by atheists, as atheists are of me.

Of course, I'm sure this has all been discussed here, but I've stayed out of it until now. I probably will after this post. I doubt anyone will change their mind because of this thread, although I guess it's possible.

First, speaking for this atheist and this atheist alone, I am not at all baffled by people who believe in God.

Second, I don't think anyone in this thread has been trying to change anyone else's mind about whether or not God exists. I agree, that'd be a pretty pointless argument. The discussions have been much more layered and diverse than that.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

First, speaking for this atheist and this atheist alone, I am not at all baffled by people who believe in God.

Second, I don't think anyone in this thread has been trying to change anyone else's mind about whether or not God exists. I agree, that'd be a pretty pointless argument. The discussions have been much more layered and diverse than that.

Yes, I agree. And there has been no name calling or any break down in civility either, which is a nice change when it comes to this topic.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Yes, I agree. And there has been no name calling or any break down in civility either, which is a nice change when it comes to this topic.

I've been involved in a number of similar discussions with folks here and things have always pretty much remained civil. To be honest, I think we've gotten rid of most of the... less civilized folks who used to go off in threads like this. It's been nice.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I've been involved in a number of similar discussions with folks here and things have always pretty much remained civil. To be honest, I think we've gotten rid of most of the... less civilized folks who used to go off in threads like this. It's been nice.

Well, I'm glad things have stayed calm and that things haven't gotten out of control.

Hopefully you don't think that I'm one of those "less civilized folks".

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I've been involved in a number of similar discussions with folks here and things have always pretty much remained civil. To be honest, I think we've gotten rid of most of the... less civilized folks who used to go off in threads like this. It's been nice.

Oh that's pretty cool actually. Especially how easily these conversations can break down.

[Cork]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Yes, I agree. And there has been no name calling or any break down in civility either, which is a nice change when it comes to this topic.

I agree as well. This thread has been a very interesting read and it is nice to know that people can actually discuss things in a civilized manner.

-Cork

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Hopefully you don't think that I'm one of those "less civilized folks".

Of course not, man! Sure, you're exciteable - that's part of the charm - but you're a far, far cry from being one of the, uh, "less civilized folk."