Bill Cosby ruffles some feathers.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by RendeR

As I said to Noop's post earlier, compaining about people not picking you for a job based on how you talk is their right, and complaining about such a thing is pitifully sad. Take responsibility for yourself, learn to communicate, get the job you want by providing the skills required, which, I'm sorry to say, might mean you have to learn to speak more clearly and use proper grammar in the work place.

I didn't say I can't talk like you. I said why should I conform to that way of speaking. I can communicate very well( when I have spell check when I am typing) I just find it kind of fake to be switching how I talk around work and home very strange to me.

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by VPI97

i haven't made it through this thread yet, but...

this had me rolling on the floor i was laughing so hard! I got some strange looks when i picked my self up and was wiping the tears away.

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by HornedFrog Purple

You attempt to bait me is worse than Sam Horn against a lefty.

dola

[GrantDawg]

Cosby says tough words needed to right wrongs

By BO EMERSON
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 05/21/04



When avuncular comedian Bill Cosby took aim at African-American parents this week, he ruffled some feathers.

Friday he remained unapologetic.

LAWRENCE JACKSON/AP (ENLARGE)
At a Washington event this week, comedian Bill Cosby (center, with Howard University Chairman Frank Savage (left) and university President H. Patrick Swygert), criticized blacks for squandering educational opportunities.
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"I can understand the sting. I feel I have to say it," Cosby said in a telephone interview.

Cosby said he was chagrined that conservative radio talk shows seized on his comments and recirculated them. Yet he said he was more concerned about protecting children in unsafe neighborhoods.

"If I weigh a loudmouthed conservative racist announcer's thoughts and opinions against a 12-year-old child being shot," concern for the child wins, he said.

During a speech Monday in Washington at a ceremony commemorating the landmark Brown v. Board of Education decision, Cosby criticized black Americans who squandered the access to education won by those who risked life and limb to desegregate schools.

He also took aim at parents who spend $500 on sneakers for their children but won't spring for a Hooked on Phonics cassette to teach them to speak correctly.

"Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads," he said during the speech.

Cosby's comments were discussed on talk radio in Atlanta and nationally, with listeners lining up on both sides of the debate.

Atlanta host Frank Ski of V-103 said Cosby may have been "untactful," but he added "it was a conversation that needed to be brought up."

Lines from the Cosby speech were also repeated on Neal Boortz's morning talk show at WSB-AM, where a caller lambasted African-Americans who don't take education seriously.

"These people act like they don't even want to go to school, and that's what [ticks] me off," said the caller.

The Washington Post reported that Cosby earned a "stonefaced" reception from his hosts, including Theodore Shaw, the NAACP legal defense fund director, and Kweisi Mfume, the NAACP president.

Mfume, however, said he was far from "stonefaced" at the event, and he supports most of Cosby's comments.

"He said at some point in time you can't continue to blame white people for every problem that black people may have, and I agree with that."

Mfume said he disagreed only with Cosby's emphasis on "lower economic people," saying there are blacks who are "not doing enough" in every economic class.

A spokesperson for Shaw said he would not be available for comment Friday.

"I didn't want to throw cold water on the celebrating," said Cosby, but he stressed that many African-American neighborhoods were in crisis. "We've got to help these people," he said. "We've got to get the neighborhood back."

Cosby blamed lack of education on many ills that he sees in black communities.

"We should look and see how many males are incarcerated and look and see how many of them are illiterate," he said.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Noop

I didn't say I can't talk like you. I said why should I conform to that way of speaking. I can communicate very well( when I have spell check when I am typing) I just find it kind of fake to be switching how I talk around work and home very strange to me.

Becuase you want the job, that's why you conform. Everyone has to conform in some way. If I talked in a job interview the way I talk when I'm around my friends, I'd never get a job. My "speak" around my friends go far beyond just using slang words (which we do) and using simple swear words (which we do...a lot), but things we say around each other would probably be horribly offensive to others.

For instance, we say "rape" as a synonym for destroyed, owned, domination, etc. I don't think a job interviewer or coworkers would appriciate it if I used that word to describe something. They most likely would have no idea what I was talking about. Our "speak" is filled with things like this.

I conform my speak around those who would find it offensive (such as parents of girlfriend, interviewer, etc.)

But it's different for me. I'm white. I don't know how it's different or why, but some people insist it is...

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by sabotai

But it's different for me. I'm white. I don't know how it's different or why, but some people insist it is...

It's different because, in general, it's more likely that a white kid grows up hearing predominantly 'proper' english around them, and so it's easier to conform to that standard than someone who grows up in an environment that is much less predominantly 'proper' english.

It's a big generalization, and I'm sure any number of people here could post counter-examples, but in general I feel pretty comfortable in assuming this is true.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Noop

I didn't say I can't talk like you. I said why should I conform to that way of speaking. I can communicate very well( when I have spell check when I am typing) I just find it kind of fake to be switching how I talk around work and home very strange to me.

so should everyone else conform to the way you talk?

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

so should everyone else conform to the way you talk?

No.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

It's different because, in general, it's more likely that a white kid grows up hearing predominantly 'proper' english around them, and so it's easier to conform to that standard than someone who grows up in an environment that is much less predominantly 'proper' english.

It's a big generalization, and I'm sure any number of people here could post counter-examples, but in general I feel pretty comfortable in assuming this is true.

So basically, all you are falling on is assumption. You have no idea whatsoever if it is true or not, you just assume.

You should be a politician.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

It's a big generalization, and I'm sure any number of people here could post counter-examples, but in general I feel pretty comfortable in assuming this is true.

FWIW, I don't think that's true. There's a lot of white people from the South and 'redneck-ese' isn't considered 'proper english'. White Californians have their own slang, white Northerns have their own slang...heck, I'm from West Virginia, so I speak Appalachian. I didn't hear 'proper english' until I was a teenager.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by VPI97

FWIW, I don't think that's true. There's a lot of white people from the South and 'redneck-ese' isn't considered 'proper english'. White Californians have their own slang, white Northerns have their own slang...heck, I'm from West Virginia, so I speak Appalachian. I didn't hear 'proper english' until I was a teenager.

I heard you guys speak squirrel.

[Dutch]

I wonder if the problem of many black people having difficulty learning the local language is a problem in England, France, Brazil, or the Dominican Republic. Or is it just in the USA?

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I heard you guys eat squirrel.

Fixed.

[Easy Mac]

For the Love of God, blacks not speaking "proper" English was the whole point of Cosby's rant.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by sabotai

So basically, all you are falling on is assumption. You have no idea whatsoever if it is true or not, you just assume.

You should be a politician.

No, I do have a pretty good idea it's true.

Originally Posted by VPI97

FWIW, I don't think that's true. There's a lot of white people from the South and 'redneck-ese' isn't considered 'proper english'. White Californians have their own slang, white Northerns have their own slang...heck, I'm from West Virginia, so I speak Appalachian. I didn't hear 'proper english' until I was a teenager.

Like I said, there are any number of examples that don't conform to the generalization. I'm still willing to bet this more true than not.

Of course, this is based off of my own opinion of what kinds of dialects and slangs are closer to 'proper' english than others. Your opinion may differ.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

No, I do have a pretty good idea it's true.



Like I said, there are any number of examples that don't conform to the generalization. I'm still willing to bet this more true than not.

Of course, this is based off of my own opinion of what kinds of dialects and slangs are closer to 'proper' english than others. Your opinion may differ.

This is exactly why political threads turn the way they do. People have nothing to support what they claim to be facts (which usually are just opinions...they call them facts), but continue to insist that they know it's true. dawgfan here shows that all he has to base his "fact" on is just an opinion of his. He admits it. Yet, he also insist that what he's saying is true.

The second you start suggestion that something is true merely on an opinion that you have, it's time to rethink that "fact".

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by sabotai

This is exactly why political threads turn the way they do. People have nothing to support what they claim to be facts (which usually are just opinions...they call them facts), but continue to insist that they know it's true. dawgfan here shows that all he has to base his "fact" on is just an opinion of his. He admits it. Yet, he also insist that what he's saying is true.

The second you start suggestion that something is true merely on an opinion that you have, it's time to rethink that "fact".

Did I ever claim this was a fact? No, I stated it was my belief this is true, ergo it's an opinion. It will remain an opinion (in my view) because any attempt to quantify this belief would be highly problematic, as I pointed out in my last post. How do you define 'proper' English when trying to quantify such a thing in any kind of meaningful study? Is Californian 'valley speech' closer to proper English than urban Detroit 'street'? Is 'hippy-talk' closer than 'Appalachian'?

The reason I believe this opinion to be generally true is simply looking at socio-economic status combined with population distributions. I believe studying such factors would support the contention it's more likely that white kids grow up around 'proper' English than black kids do. It certainly wouldn't "prove" it, but would provide some kind of framework for reinforcing such a belief.

If someone wishes to post reasons why they think this is not generally true outside of limited personal experience anecdotes, i.e. linguistic studies, socio-economic figures, population distributions, etc. I'd be happy to change my opinion.

Your post demonstrates another problem with political (and other highly charged) debates - people have a tendency to misread other's posts and mischaracterize them based on these misreadings.

[wig]

The main problem with political debates is that most people think they know more than they actually do.

[sabotai]

Your post demonstrates another problem with political (and other highly charged) debates - people have a tendency to misread other's posts and mischaracterize them based on these misreadings.

Exactly, you should read my post again.

Edit:

If someone wishes to post reasons why they think this is not generally true outside of limited personal experience anecdotes, i.e. linguistic studies, socio-economic figures, population distributions, etc. I'd be happy to change my opinion.

You admit that the only thing to back up your statement is your own opinion, yet you then challenge others to provide empirical evidence to disprove your statement.

While we're on the subject of listing the problems with these kinds of discussions....

[Bubba Wheels]

So Cosby feels he is qualified to make those observations, but if a conservative does the same then he is automatically a 'loud-mouthed racist." Funny set of standards he has.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Exactly, you should read my post again.

I did. You accuse me of insisting that my opinion is true. I did not - I said I had a pretty good idea that it is, based on what I know of socio-economic factors and population distributions. Ergo, you mischaracterized me.

Originally Posted by sabotai

You admit that the only thing to back up your statement is your own opinion, yet you then challenge others to provide empirical evidence to disprove your statement.

Where you again mischaracterize me is saying that I'm challenging others to disprove my statement; I'm genuinely curious to see if there are studies that contradict my opinion. I like knowing the truth where it can be gleaned, but I'll admit that on this topic I'm simply not motivated enough to do rigorous research to support or contradict my opinion.

I admit that I haven't done any study on this matter. That doesn't mean my opinion has no value - I do have some basis for why I believe it's true. But I acknowledge that I haven't brought much in the way of tangible evidence to back my assertion, so if you don't agree with premise of my opinion you probably won't come to the same conclusion I have.

Some will no doubt disagree with me as you do - that's fine. Ultimately I don't really care one way or the other if you do. I do care about knowing the truth though, which is why I'd be genuinely curious to see studies on the matter if someone else knows of any.

Originally Posted by sabotai

While we're on the subject of listing the problems with these kinds of discussions....

Please expound upon this.

My comment on these discussions would be this: I find condescension and mischaracterization to be far more annoying than opinions not supported by facts. Everyone here has varying degrees of expertise in things they comment on, and in general it's pretty easy to tell who has actually done some study on the matters in question and those who are guessing. Doesn't mean the guessers are wrong, just that their opinions should be looked at in proportion to the evidence they bring to the discussion.

[Chubby]

Soooo basically dawgfan is saying that he hasn't provided any evidence to back his assertions yet insists that others bring evidence to prove his opinion false? I'm trying to make sure I follow along here...

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Soooo basically dawgfan is saying that he hasn't provided any evidence to back his assertions yet insists that others bring evidence to prove his opinion false? I'm trying to make sure I follow along here...

Please quote from me where I insist that anyone bring evidence to prove my opinion false. Did you even bother to read my reply to sabotai just above your post?

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Did I ever claim this was a fact? No, I stated it was my belief this is true, ergo it's an opinion. It will remain an opinion (in my view) because any attempt to quantify this belief would be highly problematic, as I pointed out in my last post. How do you define 'proper' English when trying to quantify such a thing in any kind of meaningful study? Is Californian 'valley speech' closer to proper English than urban Detroit 'street'? Is 'hippy-talk' closer than 'Appalachian'?

The reason I believe this opinion to be generally true is simply looking at socio-economic status combined with population distributions. I believe studying such factors would support the contention it's more likely that white kids grow up around 'proper' English than black kids do. It certainly wouldn't "prove" it, but would provide some kind of framework for reinforcing such a belief.

If someone wishes to post reasons why they think this is not generally true outside of limited personal experience anecdotes, i.e. linguistic studies, socio-economic figures, population distributions, etc. I'd be happy to change my opinion.

Your post demonstrates another problem with political (and other highly charged) debates - people have a tendency to misread other's posts and mischaracterize them based on these misreadings.

Even tho sabotai already quoted you saying that, I guess it slipped your mind again.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Even tho sabotai already quoted you saying that, I guess it slipped your mind again.

Please show where in that quote I insist on anything. I stated my belief as an opinion and welcomed any evidence to contradict it. If you read that quote above as insisting anything that's on you, not me.

Have you read the reply to sabotai yet? Or did that slip your mind?

[Chubby]

"I'm genuinely curious to see if there are studies that contradict my opinion."
"I'll admit that on this topic I'm simply not motivated enough to do rigorous research to support or contradict my opinion."
"If someone wishes to post reasons why they think this is not generally true outside of limited personal experience anecdotes, i.e. linguistic studies, socio-economic figures, population distributions, etc. I'd be happy to change my opinion."

So are you insisting your opinion is false? Do you think before post or do you just choose to selectively remember past posts when you feel like it?

"I do care about knowing the truth though, which is why I'd be genuinely curious to see studies on the matter if someone else knows of any."

You do? Yet you're too damn lazy to go find it yourself. I guess you'd rather spout baseless opinions and have otherwise to the work for you.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Chubby

"I'm genuinely curious to see if there are studies that contradict my opinion."
"I'll admit that on this topic I'm simply not motivated enough to do rigorous research to support or contradict my opinion."
"If someone wishes to post reasons why they think this is not generally true outside of limited personal experience anecdotes, i.e. linguistic studies, socio-economic figures, population distributions, etc. I'd be happy to change my opinion."

So are you insisting your opinion is false? Do you think before post or do you just choose to selectively remember past posts when you feel like it?

I'm not sure how to respond to this idiocy. What exactly is your point? Nowhere in the examples you've posted do I insist on anything, contrary to your earlier assertion. I said I was expressing an opinion and that I'd be happy to hear evidence to the contrary. Once again, if you read that quote as insisting on anything, that's your own misinterpretation.

Originally Posted by Chubby

"I do care about knowing the truth though, which is why I'd be genuinely curious to see studies on the matter if someone else knows of any."

You do? Yet you're too damn lazy to go find it yourself. I guess you'd rather spout baseless opinions and have otherwise to the work for you.

Ah yes, I'm sure you do extensive research before you ever post an opinion. And if you really think my opinions are baseless, would you care to express your reasons for thinking that?

Feel free to have the last word - I'm done 'arguing' with a condescending, mischaracterizing poster such as yourself.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Feel free to have the last word - I'm done 'arguing' with a condescending, mischaracterizing poster such as yourself.

So you're done with both me and sabotai now? I just want to make sure, excellent.

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Ah yes, I'm sure you do extensive research before you ever post an opinion. And if you really think my opinions are baseless, would you care to express your reasons for thinking that?

Oh no no, I'm going the "dawgfan" route. If you want to dispute my totally baseless opinion YOU do the research. I never gave an opinion on this particular topic anyways, I merely pointed out your ducking of Sabotai's questions.

[RendeR]

Chubby, stop being a trolling prick. Instead of reading it with a chip on your shoulder, read it with the emphasis on the beginning of his statement:

"I'm genuinely curious to see if there are studies that contradict my opinion."

maybe its just hard to grasp that someone would be OPEN to having an opinion changed if someone were to be PLEASENT enough to actually show some hard data to sway them. You keep badgering on about how he's insisting on evidence, when in fact he is ASKING someone to help him either confirm, or CHANGE his current state of mind on this topic.

holy shit man, take the stick out of your ass for a second and stop assuming everyone is trying to be an asshole. it makes you look like more of a rediculous butthead than you normally do.

[dawgfan]

Just to clarify, I'm only done with Chubby, who's shown no interest in this particular discussion except misinterpreting me and trying to pick a fight over it, which is nothing new.

I think sabotai has also misinterpreted me, but he hasn't been nearly as much of an ass about it as Chubby. We still may not agree on my opinion, and that's fine - it would rank very low on a list of things I feel strongly about.

And if anyone cares, I've done some searching for relevant articles on the web, but I've yet to see something that shows a study breaking down the various dialects across the country in terms of how many users of each and how much difference each of these dialects has from Standard English. This would likely require more detailed research, i.e. buying books/articles and/or checking out books/articles from a library. Of what I did find, much of it referenced the 'Ebonics' debate in the Oakland public schools in the late-'90's.

These articles discussed how 'Ebonics', or AAVE as the linguists prefer, is considered another dialect of English as opposed to a different language, and dismissed claims that it derives from African languages or has a basis in genetics.

What's interesting about the Oakland debate is that it acknowledges that, at least in their situation, those students classified as speaking the AAVE dialect were in need of modified approach from teachers in instructing them on Standard English.

Diving further into this site, there are some interesting articles relevant to the debate as a whole.

Links:
http://www.cal.org/ebonics/ebfillmo.html
http://www.cal.org/pubs/connection.html#preface
http://www.cal.org/resources/digest/0104dialects.html
http://www.cal.org/resources/digest/christ01.html

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Chubby, stop being a trolling prick. Instead of reading it with a chip on your shoulder, read it with the emphasis on the beginning of his statement:



maybe its just hard to grasp that someone would be OPEN to having an opinion changed if someone were to be PLEASENT enough to actually show some hard data to sway them. You keep badgering on about how he's insisting on evidence, when in fact he is ASKING someone to help him either confirm, or CHANGE his current state of mind on this topic.

holy shit man, take the stick out of your ass for a second and stop assuming everyone is trying to be an asshole. it makes you look like more of a rediculous butthead than you normally do.

I'll read it however I want thanks. He sat there and posted over and over about how it was his opinion, he didn't have any evidence, and didn't want to find any. It's foolish to say "this is my opinion, I don't want to back it up with anything but if you disagree I want to see hard evidence".

[Bubba Wheels]

Chubby does define the word 'troll.'

Cosby himself, BTW, is an aquired taste himself. Much more like Jerry Lewis than most people would want to admit.

[Karlifornia]

My mother is white. My father is black. Neither of them spoke "ebonics", and I don't speak "ebonics" either. The two relate to each other somehow I am sure, but I question just how much when I see high school Eminems. They aren't just white, either. There are many latino and asian kids who partake in gangsta-speak Now, I know the parents of mexican and asian kids don't talk like that, so I imagine the friends you hang out with, and the music you listen to have some sort of effect.

Aw fuck it...time to go to work.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Chubby and Bubba define the word 'troll.'

I agree.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I agree.

dammit, I wanted to use the pot/kettle line.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I agree.

Your bias is just showing. Your gay, so anything I say that does not promote your agenda gets you mad at me. Mac probably fits the same discription. BTW, for those joining late, I am not anti-gay, but like ALL PC positions if you don't lock-step with the 'correct' views your automatically 'racist, bigoted, hate-filled, hate-speach, ect." It has been shown numerous times elsewhere that these are just all convienient devises utilized by the PC crowd to shut down ALL debate that does not agree with them. Unlike Galt, Mac and Chubby I never get personal with attacks, just point out positions. But that's all it takes to get the 'raving loonies' to go on a bashing spree.

See if I'm wrong, but the most vehement "Bush-haters' tend to be homosexuals. They understand that Bush is backed by traditionalist faith-based organizations that oppose 'mainstreaming' the homosexual lifestyle to school-kids, ect., and this just drives them absolutely hate-filled nuts.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Your gay, blah blah blah if you don't lock-step with the 'correct' views your automatically 'racist, bigoted, hate-filled, hate-speach, ect." blah blah blah

See if I'm wrong, blah blah blah

Your wrong.

[John Galt]

Interesting. I call you a troll and I make things "personal." You call Chubby a troll, but you never make things personal. It is all clear to me now.

I do, however, agree, when it comes to political threads, Chubby is a troll.

[Easy Mac]

Did he just call me gay.

Seriously Skydog, if you don't ban this piece of flaming shit, I will certainly say things that will get me banned.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Your bias is just showing. Your gay, so anything I say that does not promote your agenda gets you mad at me. Mac probably fits the same discription. BTW, for those joining late, I am not anti-gay, but like ALL PC positions if you don't lock-step with the 'correct' views your automatically 'racist, bigoted, hate-filled, hate-speach, ect." It has been shown numerous times elsewhere that these are just all convienient devises utilized by the PC crowd to shut down ALL debate that does not agree with them. Unlike Galt, Mac and Chubby I never get personal with attacks, just point out positions. But that's all it takes to get the 'raving loonies' to go on a bashing spree.

See if I'm wrong, but the most vehement "Bush-haters' tend to be homosexuals. They understand that Bush is backed by traditionalist faith-based organizations that oppose 'mainstreaming' the homosexual lifestyle to school-kids, ect., and this just drives them absolutely hate-filled nuts.

You just said the magic words. See you in a week.

[Ben E Lou]

Actually Bubba, you picked a bad time. I don't want someone else to have to deal with you when you come back. You're out for 2 weeks. You'll return the day I return.

[RendeR]

I Heart SkyDog

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by VPI97

VPI97: Keen observer or prophet...?

[BlingBlingKilla]

you all be trippin!

[Young Drachma]

So the phone rings..and its Cosby calling

So the phone rings, and it's Cosby calling
Posted: May 22, 2004


Eugene Kane

The message was pretty succinct: Bill Cosby wanted to talk to me.

According to his representative, Cosby read my column about his comments at a Washington, D.C., ceremony celebrating the 50th anniversary of the Brown vs. Board of Education case, and he wanted to respond.

Expect a call inside an hour, I was told.

Ordinarily, that kind of news would have me drunk with glee; Cosby has been a personal hero for years. But in my column Thursday, I criticized him for slamming low-income African-Americans and their children for everything from their speech to their buying habits.

Based on a report in The Washington Post that Cosby mocked the language of poor blacks and blamed them for dragging down the rest of society, I chided Cosby for his harsh views and even called him a "curmudgeon."

So when the phone rang and it was none other than Cosby on the other end of the line, frankly, I was pretty intimidated.

That didn't last long.

"Mr. Kane? First, what I want to say is this is not an argument, this is a discussion."

For the next hour, I had a wide-ranging discussion with one of the most famous and successful entertainers in America.

During our talk, he managed to clarify most of his remarks at the Brown vs. Board event.

By the time we were finished, it had been part gentle chastising, part history lesson and partly just a pair of North Philly homeboys talking about growing up in that city.

Cosby said many of his comments in Washington had been taken out of context.

He never meant to suggest all lower-income people were to blame for society's problem.

He said an important qualifying statement was left out of articles about his remarks, mainly his references to a 50% high school graduation rate for blacks across the nation.

"I didn't say all black people from the lower classes were to blame. But I said that when you have a 50 percent graduation rate, and some people can't put two sentences together, and can't write or spell . . . you've got people who have put themselves on a track to failure."

Cosby said he was trying to sound a clarion call with his remarks, most of which weren't reported in the mainstream media.

"What I was saying," Cosby said, was that "we're not paying attention to these messages our children are sending us."

He talked about the hidden meanings behind some kids' fashions, when some black males wear orange jumpsuits, and pants low on their waists, "like they're in jail."

He decried the lack of emphasis on education among some black youth who concentrate more on sports than academics.

He criticized the glorification of a "pimp" mentality among black youth, even to the point where it's celebrated in rap videos on BET and elsewhere.

Not one to mince words, he placed the blame squarely on black parents, no ifs, ands or buts about it.

"I'm talking about parenting. It is time for us to turn the mirror around. We have to take back the neighborhood."

He didn't back down from his criticism of bad English; Cosby was insistent that many blacks could speak better if it became more of a priority in their households.

"We can't excuse these people. There are generations who have been born here and their English is worse than Koreans who have just been here a few years."

At 66 years old, Cosby said he had become frustrated at the dysfunction of some blacks, and the downward path many black communities have traveled.

His criticisms were strident because he felt the problems required a sense of urgency.

"I'm a tired man," he said at one point.

At one point in our conversation, I explained my motivation for writing the column, based on my belief that his reported remarks lacked appropriate compassion for low-income blacks with sub-par education.

I was simply doing what I always try to do as a black journalist, speaking up for defenseless people.

"You're absolutely correct," he told me. "I understand what you were doing."

Cosby also took time to correct me on the circumstances surrounding Autumn Jackson, the woman who claimed to be his out-of-wedlock child. (I made reference to Jackson in my column.)

Cosby said she has steadfastly refused his offer to take a paternity test.

By the end of the conversation, I was literally light-headed with excitement.

What initially promised to be an uncomfortable moment ended up one of the highlights of my journalism career.

I don't make a habit of taking things back. What's the point in that if you believe in what you say?

But I do think my column Thursday did a disservice to Cosby by not presenting all of his comments in context.

A man who has donated millions of dollars to charity - much of that in the name of educating black children - shouldn't have to defend himself to someone like me.

But, seeing how things turned out, I'm glad I said what I did. After discovering we attended the same high school, Bill Cosby even sang a bit of our old school song to me!

Some days, you can't beat this job.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Actually Bubba, you picked a bad time. I don't want someone else to have to deal with you when you come back. You're out for 2 weeks. You'll return the day I return.

Thank you (I just noticed this, and the kindness you showed me).

[GrantDawg]

dola: great article DC.

[Ksyrup]

Way off the original topic, I found this "commentary" to be pretty funny, in the middle of article about Snoop Dogg filing for divorce:


"Snoop, 32, co-stars in the new movie "Soul Plane," which opens Friday. He also has appeared in the movies "Baby Boy" and "Starsky & Hutch," starred in MTV's "Doggy Fizzle Televizzle" comedy show and helped popularize new slang that adds a lot of unnecessary Zs and Ls to words."

[Young Drachma]

The stories on the Snoop Dogg divorce drove me nuts. I mean, what copy editor let those go? I saw one that was like "Snoop Dogg gets a divizzle" or some shit. It was an AP story, so I'm sure it got cut in a few major papers. But seriously, why dumb down language because that's his hustle?

::Shrug::

Glad you liked the article, Grant.

[QuikSand]

I read as much of this as I could handle, and saw my name used a few times as an example of a "Grammar Nazi." Fine by me.

For some context, I basically side with some comments I saw written above (forgive me, I lost track of the author). I essentially see poor grammar and spelling as an indication of a lack of attention to detail. Particularly if it appears in a format that clearly demands formality -- a resume, a cover letter, even an academic submission -- I think mistakes like that, of anything but the lowest degree, are unacceptable.

When I see someone submit material that is riddled with spelling errors, I recognize that the person simply did not see fit to take the time needed to correct them. There's no other explanation. That reflects on that person's values, to me - she simply didn't place much value on the quality of her work. If I'm making a judgment about that person -- whether to hire her, whether she is suitable for a certain task, what grade she deserves for the work, and so forth -- I think that is absolutely a fair conclusion to draw.

Grammar is a little more subtle, but I think it similarly reflects on the person's long-term values. Either you decide that doing things correctly is worth the investment of time and effort necessary, or you don't. And I don't think I'm being unfair to judge that a person who shows an unwillingness to do this particular thing correctly might very well make a similar desicion about something else -- and that's not the kind of person upon whom I want to be depending.

The bottom line is we don't want to have someone be too lazy to double-check their calculations for an engineering project. We don't want to have someone get careless when they are cooking our food. We don't want to have someone slip up and let through a meaningful error in the corporate financial statements. These things matter. And when we're making decisions about who ought to be doing these things -- we absolutely must use the tools we have available to assess and judge the person's skills and performance. Someone who has shown a lack of regard for accepted use of the language (for whatever reason at all) already has shown some commonality in her thinking with all the screw-ups we want to avoid above. It just makes sense to use that information in judging her.

Is this potentially unfair to someone who has had a disadvantage in mastering the language? I suspect it is. I agree that people from certain circumstancs or upbringings probably have further to go to master these things than others. I like to think that I can make a fair balancing of this sort of thing when analyzing people's work... but it's hard to judge myself fairly. I may therefore be racially or ethnically biasing my decisions by proxy, even though that isn't my intention.

I make it a point to emphasize grammar, punctuation, and spelling to my students (even though I don't teach English). I occasionally get a groan or a gripe - but a mini-lecture like this one is usually pretty well-received.