NFL Week 5

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by JS19

Was that really pass interference? I'm by no means a football rules guru, but it's my understanding you can do something like that, so long as you are making a move for/towards the football.

You are not allowed to climb the other guy's back and go through him.

And I'm with kcchief, I'm not even posting about it if it's not for the early whining from Galaril.

Hats off to the Broncos, you took advantage of your opportunities and played some great defense. I hate playing in Denver, it's like playing in Miami back in the '80s...

[DaddyTorgo]

poop

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

And Marshall got away with blatant offensive pass interference.

I'll have to give it up to the Broncos because they won a real game today. I still think this team is more like the '03 Chiefs who started 9-0, finished 13-3 and were in reality a 10-6 team that won three games they shouldn't have. I think the Broncos are a 3-2 team in 5-0 clothing.

And as someone who hates both the Broncos and Patriots, the BS about the Patriots getting all the calls gets really old. They "seem" to get a lot of calls because they are extremely well coached and play smart. I saw just as many calls today go in favor of the Broncos as the Patriots.

Well, that's nice and all, but there is a huge difference between this Bronco team and the Chiefs of that year. The '03 Chiefs were coming off an 8-8 season, but had a ridiculous amount of talent on offense. They were supposed to contend for a wild card or playoff spot. Denver this year? Even die hard fans like me had this team at 5-11.

I don't know if the team is a 10-6 team or a 13-3 team or an 8-8 team that's just played well for five weeks. They also clearly have had some luck. It's nice when a ball deflects off two players and Denver gets a huge 3rd down conversion.

That said, what do I think now? They are pretty good. Every team (outside of the Raiders) comes to play in this league. Denver has now played 5 teams and has outscored their opponents 59-7 in the second half of those games. OK, fine, people can bash on Tony Romo and the Cowboys. . . but when you shut Brady out in the second half? When you stuff him on a last minute drive? I still don't think they are winning a Super Bowl this year, but it's time to admit a few things:

1) I was wrong about Josh McDaniels. Very wrong.
2) I was wrong about Mike Nolan.
3) I was wrong on Dawkins. Dont' get me wrong, I thought he was a damned good player. but watching this guy week to week is a thing of joy. He's an amazing football player. I wish I'd paid more attention to him when he was 24 or 25.

Looking forward to all of the "Enjoy your record Denver, you'll be 5-3 by the bye week"

[Vince, Pt. II]

Nolan's always been a great DC. I think that people forget that because of how terrible he was as the Niners head coach.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Well, that's nice and all, but there is a huge difference between this Bronco team and the Chiefs of that year. The '03 Chiefs were coming off an 8-8 season, but had a ridiculous amount of talent on offense. They were supposed to contend for a wild card or playoff spot. Denver this year? Even die hard fans like me had this team at 5-11.

I don't know if the team is a 10-6 team or a 13-3 team or an 8-8 team that's just played well for five weeks. They also clearly have had some luck. It's nice when a ball deflects off two players and Denver gets a huge 3rd down conversion.

I think that's a bit of being down on the hometeam. Denver was an 8-8 team last year and in my book was neck-and-neck with the Chargers for the division favorite. I thought another 8-8 season would have been par for the course. This team has plenty of talent -- probably much more talen the '03 Chiefs had who were simply a very well built offensive machine that was better than the sum of its parts.

Nolan has done wonders with the defense and McDaniels has done an incredible job with the offense. He's made Orton look like a credible QB. The team plays smart and disciplined. These were not things I expected with the way the offseason went.

I still think McDaniels is a d-bag but so is our coach. Unfortunately right now I'd try our d-bag for your d-bag.

[bhlloy]

I think the difference is McDaniels is the kind of dbag that players genuinely like to play for (I know whose side I am on in the baby Cutler saga). Kind of like Rex Ryan and Belicheck. If your an opposing fan he's an arrogant asshole but if he's your coach he's great and he really motivates the players.

Haley is a dbag who is a dbag to his players and nobody wants to put it on the line for him. After some of the cussing matches he had with Warner and Boldin last year in public and the way he cusses out his players and throws tantrums on the sideline I hope he crashes and burns.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I think that's a bit of being down on the hometeam. Denver was an 8-8 team last year and in my book was neck-and-neck with the Chargers for the division favorite. I thought another 8-8 season would have been par for the course. This team has plenty of talent -- probably much more talen the '03 Chiefs had who were simply a very well built offensive machine that was better than the sum of its parts.

Nolan has done wonders with the defense and McDaniels has done an incredible job with the offense. He's made Orton look like a credible QB. The team plays smart and disciplined. These were not things I expected with the way the offseason went.

I still think McDaniels is a d-bag but so is our coach. Unfortunately right now I'd try our d-bag for your d-bag.

You may have thought Denver was an 8-8 team, that's not the way the nation viewed the Broncos. Denver was ranked 27th in the ESPN power poll to start the season. NY Times had Denver at 26. CNNsi near the same. Cincy was a 3.5 point favorite in the season opener.

No, most people didn't view this team as 8-8. Most people viewed this team as 6-10. . . or worse.

I'm not sure McDaniels is a d-bag. I'm not sure Haley is either. I am sure Haley needs to tone it down about 3 notches.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Nolan's always been a great DC. I think that people forget that because of how terrible he was as the Niners head coach.

Yep. Despite today's abortion, the 49er's have a lot of good young defensive talent which Nolan basically brought there. Even in lean years, I remember San Francisco's defense having consistent success over the past three or four years.

Nolan bombed as a head coach because he has absoultely no idea what to do on offense (see the horrible choice in coordinators and decision to draft Alex Smith and his tiny hands).

Actually, drafting Smith was probably what ended up killing Nolan's coaching career with San Francisco. I wonder what would have happened if the team had sucked one year earlier and ended up with Eli, Rivers, or Big Ben.

[larrymcg421]

The Monday night game is even bigger now. If the Dolphins win, they're only a game behind in the division.

[cmp]

These roughing the passer calls are horrible.

[Greyroofoo]

I <3 Collie and Garcon

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by cmp

These roughing the passer calls are horrible.

Yeah ridiculous.

[Aylmar]

Originally Posted by TroyF

You may have thought Denver was an 8-8 team, that's not the way the nation viewed the Broncos. Denver was ranked 27th in the ESPN power poll to start the season. NY Times had Denver at 26. CNNsi near the same. Cincy was a 3.5 point favorite in the season opener.

No, most people didn't view this team as 8-8. Most people viewed this team as 6-10. . . or worse.

I'm not sure McDaniels is a d-bag. I'm not sure Haley is either. I am sure Haley needs to tone it down about 3 notches.

I think the nation was down on the Broncos because of their train-wreck looking off-season, not the talent level on the team. It just looked like a locker room in shambles, at least to the casual observer (and let's be honest, the guys who do those power polls aren't anything more than casual observers of each team). Cincy was the home team, so the opening spread was essentially a pick 'em. I don't know if you can use that as an example of disrespect or not. Depends on what you thought of the Bengals, I guess.

Yes, that was textbook Offensive Pass Interference (not directed at you, Troy, since you didn't really address that...just commenting on something else in the thread and didn't want to post again). It was also a terrible play call in that situation. Just trot out the kicker and win the game on third down. I will certainly modify it to just a bad decision by Orton if I see film of a guy running free on the other side, but it looked to me like he went right to his primary guy...

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

I <3 Collie and Garcon

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Aylmar

I think the nation was down on the Broncos because of their train-wreck looking off-season, not the talent level on the team. It just looked like a locker room in shambles, at least to the casual observer (and let's be honest, the guys who do those power polls aren't anything more than casual observers of each team). Cincy was the home team, so the opening spread was essentially a pick 'em. I don't know if you can use that as an example of disrespect or not. Depends on what you thought of the Bengals, I guess.

Yes, that was textbook Offensive Pass Interference (not directed at you, Troy, since you didn't really address that...just commenting on something else in the thread and didn't want to post again). It was also a terrible play call in that situation. Just trot out the kicker and win the game on third down. I will certainly modify it to just a bad decision by Orton if I see film of a guy running free on the other side, but it looked to me like he went right to his primary guy...

It was a combination of two things:

1) The train wreck of an offseason where our starting QB was traded and the top WR was holding out.

2) A historically bad defense that didn't look that improved. In hindsite, it's easy to say "Hill, Goodman, Dawkins, Fileds, Holliday and Davis are studs and are going to improve the D greatly" In reality, none of those other than Dawkins was looked at as anything more than a minor deal. Even Dawkins was 34 years old. I'm sorry, but that didn't look like a recipe for fixing the defense.

Again, you can play the hindsite is 20/20 game now, but the reality is I only saw one national guy who talked about the Broncos winning the division or contending for a playoff spot. I can't even believe the guy who said it. Bill Simmons. Again, this isn't hard. Do a search of the power rankings from the start of the season. Look at the over/under wins in Vegas at the start of the season. (I think Denver came in at 6) This was a team that was expected to suck and suck hard.

--------------------------------------------------------

As for the offensive PI, it's rarely called there. It was PI, but the officials were in a let em play mode for most of the game. As for the call, meh, I've seen a lot of coaches do that. You also must have missed the graphic at the start of the game where it showed Prater was the second most inaccurate kicker in the game.

[johneh]

Browns Vs Bills - I think it will go down in history as the $hitest game ever player. That was painful to watch.

[Aylmar]

Originally Posted by TroyF

It was a combination of two things:

1) The train wreck of an offseason where our starting QB was traded and the top WR was holding out.

2) A historically bad defense that didn't look that improved. In hindsite, it's easy to say "Hill, Goodman, Dawkins, Fileds, Holliday and Davis are studs and are going to improve the D greatly" In reality, none of those other than Dawkins was looked at as anything more than a minor deal. Even Dawkins was 34 years old. I'm sorry, but that didn't look like a recipe for fixing the defense.

Again, you can play the hindsite is 20/20 game now, but the reality is I only saw one national guy who talked about the Broncos winning the division or contending for a playoff spot. I can't even believe the guy who said it. Bill Simmons. Again, this isn't hard. Do a search of the power rankings from the start of the season. Look at the over/under wins in Vegas at the start of the season. (I think Denver came in at 6) This was a team that was expected to suck and suck hard.

--------------------------------------------------------

As for the offensive PI, it's rarely called there. It was PI, but the officials were in a let em play mode for most of the game. As for the call, meh, I've seen a lot of coaches do that. You also must have missed the graphic at the start of the game where it showed Prater was the second most inaccurate kicker in the game.

You're right, I didn't see the graphic. I bounced around the afternoon games quite a bit. That said, I'm still a fan of the third down kick in overtime. Always have been. And yes, I know it's rarely called, but that doesn't make it any less of a penalty. It should have been called, but I think officiating breaks even out over the course of a game/season.

I understand that the Broncos are under siege by the "they're not that good" crowd. I don't have a solid feeling about how good they are, to be honest. Every year, there's always one team that makes people scratch their heads and wonder how they keep winning their games. I saw part of the Cowboys game, and I watched a chunk of this game today, and I still wonder how they are doing it and whether or not they're going to be able to maintain it. Time will tell. As long as they keep winning, who cares what people think or say?

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Aylmar

I think the nation was down on the Broncos because of their train-wreck looking off-season, not the talent level on the team. It just looked like a locker room in shambles, at least to the casual observer (and let's be honest, the guys who do those power polls aren't anything more than casual observers of each team). Cincy was the home team, so the opening spread was essentially a pick 'em. I don't know if you can use that as an example of disrespect or not. Depends on what you thought of the Bengals, I guess.

I think that's a fair summation. I looked at some of the predictions Troy noted and it was clear in all the forecasts that everyone thought the problem with Denver was between the ears of Josh McDaniels -- the trainwreck of an offensive did not bode well. Also worth noting is that in those predictions Denver was still a near unanimous selection for 2nd in the AFC West. No one outside Denver though they had 5-11 talent, but though they might have a 5-11 coach.

Originally Posted by Aylmar

Yes, that was textbook Offensive Pass Interference (not directed at you, Troy, since you didn't really address that...just commenting on something else in the thread and didn't want to post again). It was also a terrible play call in that situation. Just trot out the kicker and win the game on third down. I will certainly modify it to just a bad decision by Orton if I see film of a guy running free on the other side, but it looked to me like he went right to his primary guy...

Pretty much sums it up for me. This goes back to what I said last week about Orton -- the unintentional underthrow is a trademark of his.

Originally Posted by TroyF

It was a combination of two things:

1) The train wreck of an offseason where our starting QB was traded and the top WR was holding out.

2) A historically bad defense that didn't look that improved. In hindsite, it's easy to say "Hill, Goodman, Dawkins, Fileds, Holliday and Davis are studs and are going to improve the D greatly" In reality, none of those other than Dawkins was looked at as anything more than a minor deal. Even Dawkins was 34 years old. I'm sorry, but that didn't look like a recipe for fixing the defense.

Again, you can play the hindsite is 20/20 game now, but the reality is I only saw one national guy who talked about the Broncos winning the division or contending for a playoff spot. I can't even believe the guy who said it. Bill Simmons. Again, this isn't hard. Do a search of the power rankings from the start of the season. Look at the over/under wins in Vegas at the start of the season. (I think Denver came in at 6) This was a team that was expected to suck and suck hard.

I don't know what is bothering Bronco fans. Is it that McDaniels isn't being hailed as the greatest coach ever because people had low expectations and he's 5-0? No one is arguing that Denver is much better than anyone thought they would be. But anyone who picked Denver to finished 2nd in the AFC West (which was the consensus) but thought they would only win 6 games just wasn't doing math. The Chiefs and Raiders are giving the Broncos four easy wins, and the early schedule was a gift. All the predictions I've seen didn't question the team, they questioned the coach. So far, the coach has answered all the questions.

Winning breeds confidence. The 4-0 start is bound to help Denver win games later on (today was probably a prime example) that they otherwise wouldn't win.

[JediKooter]

The AFC West is Denver's to lose, much like last year. As long as Norv Turner is coaching the Chargers, they could have All Madden teams on offense and defense and Turner will still manage about an 8-8 team out of them. So, Denver really doesn't have much to worry about except themselves.

[Neuqua]

It really is a privilege to watch Peyton Manning play Quarterback.

[Greyroofoo]

So Peyton Manning,

Greatest QB to ever play the game

Yeah or Nay?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

So Peyton Manning,

Greatest QB to ever play the game

Yeah or Nay?

not even the best Manning playing the game today.

[Lathum]

that was sarcasm in case anyone is wondering

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by Lathum

not even the best Manning playing the game today.

You shall die with terrible torment for that remark.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

So Peyton Manning,

Greatest QB to ever play the game

Yeah or Nay?

He's up there, but I stick by Marino.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

So Peyton Manning,

Greatest QB to ever play the game

Yeah or Nay?

possibly. Although Brady gets it done when it matters.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

He's up there, but I stick by Marino.

I'm not saying titles are everything, but I don't think you can claim someone is the best ever if they don't have at least one.

[cuervo72]

One interesting note on the Broncos' unis. It looks like the originals had white oversocks which came about halfway up the calf (see http://endzonesportscharities.org/history ). I think that helps diffuse the socks quite a bit. Don't know why they didn't have any today.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Bubby Brister is the best EVER

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

So Peyton Manning,

Greatest QB to ever play the game

Yeah or Nay?

Joe Montana. No INTs in 4 Super Bowls and numerous comeback victories.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I'm not saying titles are everything, but I don't think you can claim someone is the best ever if they don't have at least one.

That's ridiculous. If you take a team with a talent of 2 (on a 1-10 scale) and constantly make them a 7 or 8, but then someone else comes along on a team with a talent of 7 or 8 and makes them a 9 or 10, who is better?

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

So Peyton Manning,

Greatest QB to ever play the game

Yeah or Nay?

You know, I told my roommate during tonight's game that I thought he may end up, when all is said and done, as the best QB to ever play the game. He is truly amazing to watch.

[stevew]

Whomever made the disparity comment, I agree. I can't recall there ever being this many obviously bad teams at one time before.

I mean, these teams suck:
Tampa, Detroit, Buffalo, Cleveland, St. Louis, Kansas City, Oakland, Carolina. And Tennesee is also 0-5, but I'm not sure they are really that bad though.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Also, I'm about the biggest fan of Joe Montana the world has ever seen.

[Lathum]

just wait until the uncapped year

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by stevew

Whomever made the disparity comment, I agree. I can't recall there ever being this many obviously bad teams at one time before.

I mean, these teams suck:
Tampa, Detroit, Buffalo, Cleveland, St. Louis, Kansas City, Oakland, Carolina. And Tennesee is also 0-5, but I'm not sure they are really that bad though.

Not sure Carolina belongs in that group. And I didn't think that Buffalo did either, but man have they been awful since the first two weeks of the season.

[DaddyTorgo]

well the Pats have either 66% or 50% of their total losses for the season, so i'm expecting them to reel off a massive win streak now...

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by stevew

possibly. Although Brady gets it done when it matters.

Yet he hasn't done anything when it matters for almost five years now. Except he's done a couple supermodels so I have to give credit where credit is due.

[Vince, Pt. II]

If I were to rank the bottom dwellers of the NFL:

Pretty bad:
Carolina, Buffalo, Tennessee, Detroit, Washington

Horribly, horribly bad:
Tampa Bay, Cleveland, St. Louis, Kansas City, Oakland

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

He's up there, but I stick by Marino.

Where's his superbowl trophy is he's so great.

Oh wait, he traded greatness and now he's a CBS commentator.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

That's ridiculous. If you take a team with a talent of 2 (on a 1-10 scale) and constantly make them a 7 or 8, but then someone else comes along on a team with a talent of 7 or 8 and makes them a 9 or 10, who is better?

Easier to join the crowd than to seperate from it.

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Bubby Brister is the best EVER

Alright you win, I lose

Can you ever forgive my mental incapacitate

[k0ruptr]

Through 5 games.

1069 Yards, 9 touchdowns to 2 interceptions. 104.1 Passer Rating, 69.1 completion %.

Top 5 in the NFL in completion %, touchdowns, and QB rating.

Ladies and Gentleman, meet 40 year old Brett Favre.

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

Through 5 games.

1069 Yards, 9 touchdowns to 2 interceptions. 104.1 Passer Rating, 69.1 completion %.

Top 5 in the NFL in completion %, touchdowns, and QB rating.

Ladies and Gentleman, meet 40 year old Brett Favre.

He really needs to get injured so Peyton can catch his TD and Games played record.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

That's ridiculous. If you take a team with a talent of 2 (on a 1-10 scale) and constantly make them a 7 or 8, but then someone else comes along on a team with a talent of 7 or 8 and makes them a 9 or 10, who is better?

Marino inherited a playoff team, went to the superbowl in his second year, lost to Montana then went back to the playoffs the next few years and could never get it done.

What, did everyone retire from the AFC Championship team he inherited?

Marino is great, but the QB is the leader of the team, and if you don't lead that team to at least one title you aren't the best ever.

Just my opinion.

[larrymcg421]

Average points allowed by defenses in postseason:

Terry Bradshaw - 16.4
Tom Brady - 18.2
Joe Montana - 18.2
Eli Manning - 19.1
Ben Roethlisberger - 21.2
Peyton Manning - 21.9
Brett Favre - 23.0
John Elway - 23.9
Dan Marino - 26.2

[Logan]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Average points allowed by defenses in postseason:

Terry Bradshaw - 16.4
Tom Brady - 18.2
Joe Montana - 18.2
Eli Manning - 19.1
Ben Roethlisberger - 21.2
Peyton Manning - 21.9
Brett Favre - 23.0
John Elway - 23.9
Dan Marino - 26.2

So your greatest QB ever couldn't put up more points than the average offense Montana's teams faced? I'm sold!

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by Lathum

not even the best Manning playing the game today.

And another point.

If Brandon Jacobs is so great...




WHY THE F******* doeas he suck on my fantasy team!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Logan

So your greatest QB ever couldn't put up more points than the average offense Montana's teams faced? I'm sold!

Huh? Where did you get that from?

Marino averaged 20.5 points in the postseason.

And I haven't even gotten into the running games.

[Fidatelo]

So we had a Thanksgiving dinner this evening, meaning I had to stop watching the Broncos game at the half. I hit Record on the PVR, then got back to the game after everyone left. I'm watching the game, on my seat, my Broncos are actually hanging in there with the Pats! Then, they miraculously tie the game on a 98 yard drive after TWICE screwing up a 4th down punt return situation.

So now I'm pumped, I can't wait for the last 5 minutes. Can the D stop Brady? I'm doubtful, but I actually have some hope, something I never expected.

And then the game ended for me. Apparently I forgot to 'extend' the recording.

Seeing that the Broncos won in OT was one of the most anti-climactic sporting moments I've had in a long time. This is only topped by the power going out with 5 minutes to play in the Giants/Patriots Super Bowl 2 years ago. Good grief.

Anyways, I have to say after finally getting to see the Broncos play for the last 2 weeks, I'm really getting on board! Orton actually seems pretty good. This week he was hitting all his throws, making good reads, and getting the lucky bounces that he seems to somehow get an inordinate number of. McDaniels' play calling is very good, although it would be nice if they could ever pick up a conversion on 3rd or 4th and 1 yard. And the defense is definitely for real.

So at this point, all is forgiven with me and McDaniels. I was a Shanahan man, and was aghast with the whole Cutler thing, but he's officially won me over.

Go Broncos!