Classic TV Sitcoms - Mount Rushmost - Construction Completed

[vex]

Friends
Seinfeld
The Wonder Years
Frasier
Fresh Prince
Saved by the Bell

[Maple Leafs]

I will fight anyone who doesn't put Married With Children on their list.

[QuikSand]

Roseanne
Friends
Frasier
Seinfeld
Married... with Children
The Wonder Years

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

I will fight anyone who doesn't put Married With Children on their list.

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Roseanne
Friends
Frasier
Seinfeld
Married... with Children
The Wonder Years

Wuss

[Warhammer]

Seinfeld
Married....With Children
Frasier
Third Rock From the Sun
NewsRadio
The Larry Sanders Show

[Solecismic]

Voting ends at midnight, Pacific Time.

[CrimsonFox]

oh yeah I never did finish this properlike

meh

#1 Frasier

#2 Newsradio

#3 Third Rock From the Sun

#4 Seinfeld

#5 Larry Sanders

#6 Friends

#7 Mad About You

[NobodyHere]

My Vote:
Seinfeld
Married With Children
Fresh Prince
Home Improvement
Drew Carey

Honorable Mention:
Mystery Science Theater 3000 (I wish the rules would've allowed me to vote for it)

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

oh yeah I never did finish this properlike

meh

#1 Frasier

#2 Newsradio

#3 Third Rock From the Sun

#4 Seinfeld

#5 Larry Sanders

#6 Friends

#7 Mad About You

So close to Mad about You getting its first vote, but we're only doing six for the '90s.

For votes that include less than six qualified shows, I'm counting what's mentioned and I'm thinking about filling them to six with a very special vote for Blossom.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

For votes that include less than six qualified shows, I'm counting what's mentioned and I'm thinking about filling them to six with a very special vote for Blossom.

Whoaaaa

[Suicane75]

My final six, in no particular order,
---------------------------------------------
Frasier
Seinfeld
NewsRadio
Larry Sanders
Dharma & Greg
Married With Children

MWC just beating out Roseanne.

[Izulde]

1. The Wonder Years - #1 of all time
2. Fresh Prince of Bel-Air - For reasons already stated
3. Roseanne - When you grow up in a city that has a strong manufacturing base, you totally get this show.
4. Friends - Defined the '90s like no other show IMO, though I'm personally not a fan.
5. Frasier - The Gertrude Stein vote. I very rarely enjoyed it, but understood its appeal.
6. Married with Children - Just for Maple Leafs' passionate defense of it. Well, that and Christina Applegate. Although I didn't care for the rest of the show, screen time with her was awesome.

There is no fucking way I would ever vote Seinfeld for anything but Worst Show of All Time. I hate that damn show more than I hate being stuck in a room with Gertrude Stein, Emily Dickinson, and E.L. James without the aid of Percocet. Or dealing with my shitty Chelmsford central defenders in FM. Take your pick.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

I will fight anyone who doesn't put Married With Children on their list.

and I will mock anyone that puts it on their list.

It makes perfect sense tho that this is a statement coming from someone that liked the show

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

So close to Mad about You getting its first vote, but we're only doing six for the '90s.

For votes that include less than six qualified shows, I'm counting what's mentioned and I'm thinking about filling them to six with a very special vote for Blossom.

yeah I know...just more a "representin'" but hey I still have 4 minutes left

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

oh yeah I never did finish this properlike

meh

#1 Frasier

#2 Newsradio

#3 Third Rock From the Sun

#4 Seinfeld

#5 Larry Sanders

#6 Mad About You

#7 Friends

fine I'll do it

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

and I will mock anyone that puts it on their list.

It makes perfect sense tho that this is a statement coming from someone that liked the show

I saw a documentary/reunion special on MWC that was awesome actually. Love watching behind the scenes stuff. Was funny how everyone in the cast and crew kept mistaking the creators for homeless guys cause that's how they showed up for work.

I can definitely see the origins of the show connected to things like RUles of Engagement ...the whole comparing newlyweds love to longstanding marital hatred. And really the vibe of it takes lowball humor (which has a place on TV for sure) hints from things like The GOng Show and even the honeymooners.

But let's be fair...it was not really comedy after a couple seasons...as yuou say it was just staring at APplegate and catcalling And boy once the sitcom killer Ted McGinley joined it was damn unwatchable. (like he killed happy days)

edit: in applegate's defense, she has turned in some great comic performances the past 15 years in other things

[CrimsonFox]

that 2:58 post was me switching my last 2 around btw.
i shouldn't have quoted

okay enjoy your mwc :P

[Solecismic]

The voting is in, and I'm afraid I will have to invoke the tie-breaker. It's an arbitrary tie-breaker. I set it up because I figured voting would be more scattered with the '90s. It definitely was. I considered changing my own vote at 2:59 to avoid it, but thought that would be an even worse way to handle the situation.

Here are the inductees to Mount Rushmost from the 1990s:

1) Seinfeld (17). I thought it had a decent chance of being the first unanimous selection, but it only hit 85%.

2) Frasier (14). A record number of Emmys for Best Comedy.

3) Friends (14). Well written. Long-lasting. Extremely popular. Too many monkeys.

4) The Wonder Years (11). Not particular well-acted, but original and crafted to evoke nostalgia. A solid selection.

5) Married... with Children (9). It was good at what it set out to do. It broke all the rules, and, while it was hard to watch at times, it has its place in history.

6) The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air (8-148 episodes). The notable Will Smith vehicle. Out-Partridged the competition.

Close, but not enough:

7) News Radio (8-97 episodes). You can consider it an honorary member of Mount Rushmost if you like.

8) Roseanne (7).

9) Murphy Brown, The Larry Sanders Show (5).

11) Everybody Loves Raymond (4).

12) Blossom protest votes (3).

A whopping 11 other shows received one or two votes.

[Solecismic]

The current makeup of Mount Rushmost:

All in the Family ('70s), The Bob Newhart Show ('70s), The Brady Bunch ('70s), Cheers ('80s), The Cosby Show ('80s), Family Ties ('80s), Frasier ('90s), The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air ('90s), Friends ('90s), The Golden Girls ('80s), Happy Days ('70s), The Jeffersons ('70s), M*A*S*H ('70s), Married... with Children ('90s), The Mary Tyler Moore Show ('70s), Night Court ('80s), Seinfeld ('90s), Taxi ('80s), WKRP in Cincinnati ('80s), The Wonder Years ('90s).

[Solecismic]

We'll conclude this exercise with a pre-1970s round. There will be five inductees from that period, rounding us off at 25 overall. I think the voting will be easier, but heavily influenced by what was rerun the most, because pretty much none of us were around when they originally aired.

[Butter]

The Fresh Prince? Jesus.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

The Fresh Prince? Jesus.

Yeah, all of the shows in the 7 through 11 spots I would place above Fresh Prince I think. That was quite a surprise.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Radii

Yeah, all of the shows in the 7 through 11 spots I would place above Fresh Prince I think. That was quite a surprise.

And I enjoyed it more than 3 of the 5 ahead of it.
{shrug}

[Suicane75]

I never got the appeal. Not even in a kitsch way.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I never got the appeal. Not even in a kitsch way.

Largely came from being pretty light -- even silly at times -- and the still relatively charming rouge-with-good-heart persona of the star.

Basically it was easy to watch, not the least bit challenging. The difference in that respect between it and, say, the Full House era ABC sitcom lineup was that Fresh Prince avoided dips into the highly annoying fairly well (except maybe for the sister at times)

And just ftr, I'm purely being conversational. I totally get "not getting" a show. I have that relationship with about 2.5 of the eventual winners in this round.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

The Fresh Prince? Jesus.

I was young...

[albionmoonlight]

I think that it is fitting that, once again, News Radio is deserving but gets shafted by the powers that be.

[Suicane75]

Maybe I'll move to New Hampshire and start my own poll.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Izulde

1. The Wonder Years - #1 of all time
...
There is no fucking way I would ever vote Seinfeld

You and I are in complete agreement.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I think that it is fitting that, once again, News Radio is deserving but gets shafted by the powers that be.

I sense the origins of a hashtag.

Funny, though, if you had voted differently, News Radio would be in.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by Radii

Yeah, all of the shows in the 7 through 11 spots I would place above Fresh Prince I think. That was quite a surprise.

I thought about dividing up eras so as to stop at about 1995, because there was a steep slope in the decline in popularity of individual shows in the '90s. We did seven from the '70s and '80s, and the seventh-place show was just over 50% both times. I think that's good. It gives the selections some gravitas.

But with the '90s, the sixth-place show received 40% of the vote. That feels different. Only four shows were above 50%. The Wonder Years had 55%, and people react to that as "yes, that was a decent show, and I can accept it even if I didn't like it." Get below that, and it feels random.

In my initial post, I referred to a bit of math having to do with ratings and total households to determine the number of votes for each decade. In retrospect, probably better to have kept the votes at 7 for each decade, but only include shows that reached a certain percentage (higher than 40).

When Sui moves to NH and runs his own vote, hopefully he learns from these horrible and life-changing errors in this particular exercise.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

We'll conclude this exercise with a pre-1970s round. There will be five inductees from that period, rounding us off at 25 overall. I think the voting will be easier, but heavily influenced by what was rerun the most, because pretty much none of us were around when they originally aired.

No post 90s voting? It would be a shame if shows like the Simpsons were completely ineligible.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

No post 90s voting? It would be a shame if shows like the Simpsons were completely ineligible.

Is there any show like The Simpsons in television history? Decent, but not great ratings. An insane number of episodes - more than any sitcom in history. Animated - so it begs the question of whether it belongs in an entirely different category.

As far as decade assignment, it belongs in the '00s. If we start addressing the question of "what decade was each show at its critical best," we have to make a lot of arbitrary judgments or use the debut year instead of the midpoint.

I'm not interested in a vote for '00s sitcoms. The total viewership for the top shows is half of what it was in the past, and there are more shows to consider, most of which we haven't seen. The winners would be at about 25%.

The Simpsons deserves a place in the television scrapbook. But a unique place, where the pages never turn yellow.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Funny, though, if you had voted differently, News Radio would be in.

That comment actually made me wonder what my vote changed.
The answer? Basically nothing.

I voted for what would eventually be 2,5,6,7,8,9.

Remove my votes, the winners are the same (only 2 & 3 changes places), and the tiebreaker would have still been needed for the last spot (since I voted for both shows).

[stevew]

I added the fresh prince instead of doogie howser and that bumped newsradio into a tie for 6th.

Fresh Prince was highly watchable, very funny at times, and never really challenged you too much. But it was really enjoyable as well. Plus I give bonus points for shows that I can watch with my kids and not be leery of.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

As far as decade assignment, it belongs in the '00s. If we start addressing the question of "what decade was each show at its critical best," we have to make a lot of arbitrary judgments or use the debut year instead of the midpoint.

But does it?

I mean it started in '89.
With the first season drawing 27 million viewers per episode.
It dropped under 15 million for the first time in 2001 and never returned there. With most recent seasons hovering he in 4.5-6 million range.

However if midpoint of its run is the determining factor and we assume the show stops airing this year that puts its mid point at 2002.

Clearly out of the 90s, yet there are other shows on the list with their midpoint out of the 90s as well.

Everbody loves Raymond has a mid point of 01
Drew Carey 00
Just shoot me 01

Yes you state you made 1 exception, when in reality it was 3.


I'm not trying to be argumentative, more conversational, but I just do have a hard time understanding the logic. To say that The Simpsons isn't a 90s era sitcom, to me would be akin to you saying that Ohio State isn't a traditional Big Ten Football Power. Personal bias aside, each are closer to the standard bearer for their respective category than a reasonable omission.

FWIW I havent watched a Simpsons episode in over a decade, new air or re run, and was never as die hard fan. But I just can't ignore the cultural phenomenon that it was. Had The Simpsons been included Id wager it would have surpassed every show in vote totals in the 90s on your list. But the world will never know... haha

Anyway I just wanted to express my opinion here. Thanks for taking the time putting this together. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Had The Simpsons been included Id wager it would have surpassed every show in vote totals in the 90s on your list.

I dunno, it woulda come close at least.

Best I can tell there were 20 votes, 17 the top vote-getter.

I don't think I'd have replaced anything on my list with Simpsons.
That means only two other people would have had to object on the grounds of "not a sitcom" or "animation" or simply not being that into it.

While I'm not exactly the bellweather for an IWS win or anything, I don't know if I'd have been the only holdout ... and it only takes three total to keep it from beating out the leaders.

[Solecismic]

The rules are somewhat arbitrary, but I've tried to apply them consistently. One (the minimum episode requirement) I dropped because it seemed too arbitrary.

I outline the decade assignment in the initial post. Line up the seasons, 1989-90 would count as '80s, find the midpoint, adjust back if it's between seasons. Rounding works more in favor of moving shows back - which is my slight nod to the fact that most shows are more popular in early years than when they die.

For Drew Carey, that's '95 through '03, midpoint is '99. For Shoot, it's '96 through '02, midpoint is also '99. Both assessments contain bordering errors, however, which in a later post I explained that I ignored (to prevent having to decide how to treat mid-season replacements consistently, or even try and track them). It's most noticeable with Just Shoot Me, which was a very late replacement in the '96 season (debuting in 3/97), and ended as a summer replacement in the '02 season (8/03).

Raymond was the lone exception, beginning in '96 and ending in the '04 season. The midpoint is the '00-'01 season, which makes it an '00s show.

If several rules were different, we could maneuver them to include The Simpsons, which peaked at 13.4 million households in its debut season (well below the averages of most shows we've discussed). As far as impact, I completely agree it's a '90s show. I just don't know how to do that for every show, and deal with the resulting arguments fairly. All I can conclude is that if you have a mental picture of what a Mount Rushmore encompasses, and Bart's face is staring back at you, then consider it part of your Mount Rushmore. This is going to mean different things to different people.

Someone mentioned my rule of it having ended by the end of the '04-'05 season as being directed at The Simpsons. It wasn't. It was actually directed at the concept of including Raymond, but not the other major sitcom that was extremely popular and could conceivably be moved back. That was Will and Grace, which ran from the '98 season through the '05 season (midpoint '01 and '02, which adjusts to '01 under the rules). And then if you include Will and Grace, what about The King of Queens (midpoint of '02 under the rules)? And when you include The King of Queens, then you might as well do the '00 decade and I felt from the very beginning of looking at this concept that doing the '00 decade wasn't particularly interesting because both viewership has declined sharply and because the sitcom itself has died in the '00s as compared to the past.

That's just a very long way of saying that I recognize the importance of The Simpsons, but I didn't think it should be included in this exercise.

[Solecismic]

One of the trends I've noticed is that shows are running for more seasons than in past decades. We haven't seen this since the early days of television.

This might be why quality declines - just not enough story lines in the concept.

Here's an unofficial list of the most episodes of sitcoms in television history. I might have missed a couple. The year a sitcom ended is in parenthesis.

1) The Simpsons (current) 596
2) The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet (1966) 425
3) My Three Sons (1972) 380
4) The Danny Thomas Show (1964) 343
5) The George Burns and Gracie Allen Show (1958) 291
6) The Donna Reed Show (1966) 275
7) The Beverly Hillbillies (1971) 274
8) Cheers (1993) 270
9) Family Guy (current) 269
10) South Park (current) 267
11) Frasier (2004) 264
12) Married.. with Children (1997) 262
12) Two and a Half Men (2015) 262
14) The Jack Benny Program (1965) 260
15) King of the Hill (2010) 259
16) M*A*S*H (1983) 256
17) Happy Days (1984) 255
18) Bewitched (1982) 254
19) The Jeffersons (1985) 253
20) The Andy Griffith Show (1968) 249
21) Murphy Brown (1997) 247
22) Friends (2004) 236
23) Leave it to Beaver (1963) 234
24) The Drew Carey Show (2004) 233
25) The Real McCoys (1963) 225
26) The Life of Riley (1958) 223
27) Petticoat Junction (1970) 222
27) Roseanne (1997) 222
29) Family Matters (1998) 215
30) All in the Family (1979) 210
30) Everybody Loves Raymond (2005) 210
32) One Day at a Time (1984) 209
32) The Facts of Life (1988) 209
34) How I Met Your Mother (2014) 208
35) The King of Queens (2007) 207
35) The Big Bang Theory (current) 207
37) Home Improvement (1999) 204
38) Father Knows Best (1960) 203
39) Alice (1985) 202
40) The Cosby Show (1992) 202
41) The Office (2013) 201
42) That '70s Show (2006) 200

[Solecismic]

Mount Rushmost - The '50s and '60s

We will choose seven sitcoms to round out Mount Rushmost. We're covering more than 20 years here, but viewership for top shows didn't reach even today's level until 1955.

These are obviously old shows, and I doubt we have experience with them outside of reruns. That makes assessment difficult.

What was a sitcom? Many of the early shows were variety shows. Sitcoms started as recurring skits on some of these shows. I've tried to include the popular shows that could be classified as sitcoms. I may have missed one or two early on.

There's no minimum episode requirement here, so The Honeymooners qualifies. There's no ban on animated shows, and The Flintstones was actually originally developed as an evening sitcom, so that qualifies. It is the only animated show ever nominated for a Best Comedy Emmy.

Why seven? I originally planned for six from the '60s and four from the '50s. I think voting works best with seven. Hopefully I'm right and we don't get the kind of scatter we saw with the '90s.

Listed are the first 53 nominees. This is not an exhaustive list, but I'd be surprised if we strongly considered anything not on this list. I'd be even more surprised if people have heard of every one of these shows.

Sitcoms are listed in order of first-run household impressions. The average number of households that saw a first-run episode multiplied by the number of original episodes. For shows that didn't place in the top 30 in the Nielsens for a season, I used a number equal to 80% of the 30th show's ratings as an estimate.

Show (Year began-Year ended), Impressions, Seasons, Episodes, Peak Season Average Viewers (NA means never in the top 30).

My Three Sons (1960-1972), 4.56b, 12, 380, 13.4m
The Danny Thomas Show/Make Room for Daddy (1953-1964), 3.92b, 11, 343, 14.8m
The Beverly Hillbillies (1962-1971), 3.89b, 9, 274, 20.2m
The Andy Griffith Show (1960-1968), 3.67b, 8, 249, 15.6m
The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet (1952-1966), 3.51b, 14, 425, 11.1m
Bewitched (1964-1972), 3.22b, 8, 254, 12.7m
The Real McCoys (1957-1963), 2.64b, 6, 225, 13.2m
The Donna Reed Show (1958-1966), 2.60b, 8, 275, 12.6m
Petticoat Junction (1958-1966), 2.54b, 7, 222, 15.6m
The Jack Benny Program (1950-1965), 2.53b, 15, 260, 13.2m
I Love Lucy (1951-1960), 2.39b, 9, 193, 17.0m
The Lucy Show (1962-1968), 2.29b, 6, 156, 15.3m
Gomer Pyle, U.S.M.C. (1964-1969), 2.22b, 5, 150, 16.2m
The George Burns and Gracie Allen Show (1950-1958), 2.15b, 8, 291, 10.8m
The Dick Van Dyke Show (1961-1966), 2.10b, 5, 158, 17.2m
Father Knows Best (1954-1960), 2.05b, 6, 203, 13.6m
Green Acres (1965-1971), 2.02b, 6, 170, 13.6m
The Life of Riley (1953-1958), 2.01b, 6, 223, 10.4m
Leave it to Beaver (1957-1963), 2.00b, 6, 234, 9.0m
December Bride (1954-1959), 1.86b, 5, 157, 13.7m
Family Affair (1966-1971), 1.81b, 5, 138, 14.7m
Hogan's Heroes (1965-1971), 1.76b, 6, 168, 13.4m
Hazel (1961-1966), 1.74b, 5, 154, 13.5m
Dennis the Menace (1959-1963), 1.61b, 4, 146, 12.3m
The Flintstones (1960-1966), 1.61b, 6, 160, 11.5m
Get Smart (1965-1970), 1.46b, 5, 138, 13.2m
The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis (1959-1963), 1.42b, 4, 147, 11.2m
I Dream of Jeannie (1965-1970), 1.42b, 5, 139, 12.1m
McHale's Navy (1962-1966), 1.41b, 4, 138, 11.8m
Bachelor Father (1957-1962), 1.35b, 5, 157, 9.0m
That Girl (1966-1971), 1.26b, 5, 136, 9.5m
My Favorite Martian (1963-1966), 1.26b, 3, 107, 13.6m
The Gale Storm Show (1956-1960), 1.20b, 4, 126, 12.1m
The Patty Duke Show (1963-1966), 1.16b, 3. 104, 12.3m
The Joey Bishop Show (1961-1965), 1.15b, 4, 123, 11.0m
Mayberry R.F.D. (1968-1971), 1.12b, 3, 78, 14.8m
Gilligan's Island (1964-1967), 1.11b, 3, 98, 13.0m
The Phil Silver Show (You'll Never Get Rich) (1955-1958), 1.05b, 4, 107, 11.6b
Julia (1968-1971), 1.02b, 3, 86, 14.3m
The Ann Sothern Show (1958-1961), 0.97b, 3, 93, 11.9m
Private Secretary (1953-1957), 0.95b, 5, 104, 11.3m
Our Miss Brooks (1952-1956), 0.91b, 4, 131, 7.8m
The Munsters (1964-1966), 0.78b, 2, 70, 13.0m
The Flying Nun (1967-1970), 0.77b, 3, 82, 9.5m
The Addams Family (1964-1966), 0.70b, 2, 64, 12.6m
The Courtship of Eddie's Father (1969-1972), 0.70b, 3, 73, 9.7m
I Married Joan (1952-1955), 0.65b, 3, 98, 7.9m
Topper (1953-1955), 0.59b, 2, 78, 9.0m
F Troop (1965-1967), 0.59b, 2, 65, 9.2m
Car 54, Where Are You (1961-1963), 0.59b, 2, 60, 11.3m
The Honeymooners (1955-1956), 0.50b, 1, 39, 10.5m

Best Comedy Emmy Nominations:

The Jack Benny Program 6 (2 wins), The Dick Van Dyke Show 4 (4 wins), I Love Lucy 4 (2 wins), Get Smart 4 (2 wins), The Danny Thomas Show 4 (1 win), Bewitched 4, Father Knows Best 4, The Phil Silvers Show 3 (2 wins), The Andy Griffith Show 3, The George Burns and Gracie Allen Show 3, Hogan's Heroes 3, Our Miss Brooks 3, Family Affair 2, McHale's Navy 2, The Beverly Hillbillies 1, The Lucy Show 1, The Flintstones 1, Hazel 1, Julia 1, Private Secretary 1, The Courtship of Eddie's Father 1, Topper 1, Car 54, Where Are You? 1.

Best Actor and Supporting Actor Nominations:

Bewitched 15 (1 win), I Love Lucy 14 (2 wins), The Dick Van Dyke Show 11 (5 wins), Father Knows Best 8 (4 wins), Hogan's Heroes 8 (2 wins), The Phil Silvers Show 8 (1 win), The Honeymooners 7 (3 wins), The Danny Thomas Show 7 (1 win), The George Burns and Gracie Allen Show 7, The Andy Griffith Show 6 (6 wins), Get Smart 6 (3 wins), The Lucy Show 6 (2 wins), December Bride 5, That Girl 5, Our Miss Brooks 4 (1 win), Family Affair 4, The Donna Reed Show 4, The Jack Benny Program 3 (2 wins), Hazel 3 (2 wins), The Beverly Hillbillies 3, Julia 3, Private Secretary 3, The Real McCoys 3, McHale's Navy 2, The Courtship of Eddie's Father 1, My Three Sons 1, The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet 1, The Gale Storm Show 1, The Patty Duke Show 1, The Ann Sothern Show 1, The Flying Nun 1, F Troop 1.

[CrimsonFox]

My Three Sons (1960-1972), 4.56b, 12, 380, 13.4m - Very noteworthy and probably the best family show in the bunch. Groundbreaking in its depiction of a broken family...furthermore noteworthy as it extended its own life with brilliant cast choices when they lost some actors. Changing from Wiliam Frawley to William Demerest...and adopting Ernie to be the NEW son (previously a friend) when Mike left the show. The fact that the two youngest were both real life brothers was cool. Also noteworthy of being one of the only sitcoms to be in both B&W AND Color. Probable to get in.
Descendants: The Brady Bunch, The Cosby Show, Kate & Allie, all things with different family situations than normal.

The Danny Thomas Show/Make Room for Daddy (1953-1964), 3.92b, 11, 343, 14.8m - Nick at Night fodder that I never watched. No one really speaks of this show.

The Beverly Hillbillies (1962-1971), 3.89b, 9, 274, 20.2m - A classic bunch of hillbilly silliness (say that 5 times fast. Irene Ryan MADE this show. Buddy Ebsen good too. Holds up pretty well because it really is out of time. My secret childhood crush on Ms. Hathaway...wow. Uptight prudes turn me on.

The Andy Griffith Show (1960-1968), 3.67b, 8, 249, 15.6m - A classic as well but one that I have never ever liked. I'm sure I'll get fileted for that with this bunch who I expect to all vote for this. I am guessing the term yokel came from this show. SUch an array of HUGE character actors ...huger than huge...Don Knotts, Jim Nabors, George Lindsey, etc. etc. really made this show what it was. Ron Howard had more acting chops at 6 (that's a guess) than most sitcom actors after him.

The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet (1952-1966), 3.51b, 14, 425, 11.1m - Never seen.

Bewitched (1964-1972), 3.22b, 8, 254, 12.7m - Any farce sitcom owed a lot to this show. Also a big factor in the "cast change syndrome" and this is the poster child for what NOT to do. When Dick York left the show, replacing him with someone that looked just like him and had the same name...yet was as wooden as all get up. So big penalty points with this show for harming its own reputation. Still...strong woman character with Samantha. Great big performances out of Dick York, Elizabeth Montgomery, and Agnes Moorhead. Wasn't Paul Lynne a recurring here? This was a show that helped set the rule of "You can get away with anything in a premise. Descendants: Third Rock From the Sun, Mork & Mindy

The Real McCoys (1957-1963), 2.64b, 6, 225, 13.2m - Never saw.

The Donna Reed Show (1958-1966), 2.60b, 8, 275, 12.6m - Never saw.

Petticoat Junction (1958-1966), 2.54b, 7, 222, 15.6m - Saw...not nearly as smart or funny as Andy Griffith Show or Beverly HIllbillies. Another "simple hometown show". Americana black & white gag me with a spoon. Descendants: Punky Brewster, Love Sydney

The Jack Benny Program (1950-1965), 2.53b, 15, 260, 13.2m - Amazing cast of characters and one hell of a lead. Wrote the book on translating comedian style delivery and translating that into a show. EXTREMELY noteworthy for having Looney Tune voice Mel Blanc in the show playing EVERYBODY else. Style influence is huge including Seinfeld, Bernie Mac Show, Garry Shandling Show.

I Love Lucy (1951-1960), 2.39b, 9, 193, 17.0m - Also one of the best farces ever. Lucille Ball was a powerhouse. Every single move of hers was uberrehearsed. Great cast, great supporters. Amazing chemistry. The king of all Husband-wife comedies. Also wrote the book on how to kill your show by adding a baby. Descendants: Mad About You, Rules of Engagement, King of Queens, Webster, Dharma and Greg


The Lucy Show (1962-1968), 2.29b, 6, 156, 15.3m - More I Love Lucy but in color.

Gomer Pyle, U.S.M.C. (1964-1969), 2.22b, 5, 150, 16.2m - One of the biggest and earliest spinoffs. Take yokel hayseed from Andy Griffith and take him into the army. Presenting...the fish out of water comedy. Nabors was one note but who cares. He and the Sarge were stock characters that show up in all kinds of cartoons, comics, shows...Descendants: Beetle Bailey,

The George Burns and Gracie Allen Show (1950-1958), 2.15b, 8, 291, 10.8m - Another perfect match of couple comedy this time with both of them equally comic comedians. Like Benny, was a great translation of comedian jumping in and out of comic monologue into sitcom comedy world. This and Benny were a core that Seinfeld and Mac and Seinfeld were built.

The Dick Van Dyke Show (1961-1966), 2.10b, 5, 158, 17.2m - The family comedy of all family comedies. The workplace comedy of all workplace comedy. Probably Carl Reiner's biggest contribution. The chemistry of Dick Van Dyke and Mary Tyler Moore then you have the zaniness of the workplace with Morey Amsterdam, Rose Marie, and Richard Deacon. Influenced Seinfeld, Newsradio, WKRP, Cosby Show, Three's Company, any show where you see the homelife and also see the workplace life of people and have them be equally as nutty owes their worth to this show.

Father Knows Best (1954-1960), 2.05b, 6, 203, 13.6m - Never saw. SOunded cutesy.

Green Acres (1965-1971), 2.02b, 6, 170, 13.6m - Silly. Weird. Like a twilight zone episode played for comedy. A Reverse Fish out of water comedy. Taking Ciy and country in a marriage...like the classic story Country Mouse and City Mouse. BUt this time Spoiled exotic city wife marries into country bumpkin life...yet it is the country guy that is played as a out of place buffoon. I never understood that. Loved Eva Gabor's accent. An who didn't like Mr Haney's voice or Arnold the pig. Pretty much a kid's show at times. Really this was an Andy Griffith clone and nothing else. Can see things like Frasier coming from it (in episodes where everything bad happens to Frasier like it did to Eddie Albert), also Perfect Strangers came from this.

The Life of Riley (1953-1958), 2.01b, 6, 223, 10.4m - Never saw.

Leave it to Beaver (1957-1963), 2.00b, 6, 234, 9.0m - Cutesy beyond belief. Americana...the good life of the 50s before it was "ruined". Was definitely the blueprint of how we view "wholesome family life" back then. A pretty good cast, probably most of the humor coming from Beaver himself Jerry Mathers. This show came from a kids point of view however which really makes it more of a children's show sitcom. Any family cartoon or sitcom borrowed or even parodies this. The SImpsons definitely. Pleasantville was directly about this. Happy Days another huge descendant...where happy days was seeing the teenager's life as opposed to the little kids. For all that I found it...meh...okay.

December Bride (1954-1959), 1.86b, 5, 157, 13.7m - Never heard of it.

Family Affair (1966-1971), 1.81b, 5, 138, 14.7m - Heard of it, never saw.

Hogan's Heroes (1965-1971), 1.76b, 6, 168, 13.4m - This was one of the bigger emsemble workplace blueprints. Ha! It is so funny calling this a workplace comedy but in essenece that's what it was. YOu have the boss, plus everyone with the little specialties plus avoiding the wwrath of the corporates heads (germans) plus you have the corporate stooge you can outwit in sgt schultz. Truly brilliant cast and execution and proof that you can do comedy literally about anything and make it work. Comic geniuses in Bob Krane, John Banner, Larry Hovis, and the great Richard Dawson. And of course Col Klink. Things that descend include Newsradio, WKRP, Seinfeld, and every other workplace show.

Hazel (1961-1966), 1.74b, 5, 154, 13.5m - Cookie housekeeper. I did see it a couple times. Influeced things like Diffrent strokes, Facts of Life, Mr Belvedere, The JEffersons, Brady Bunch. Have a cookie housekeeper and let them say wisecracky things...there ya go. It started here.

Dennis the Menace (1959-1963), 1.61b, 4, 146, 12.3m - Freaking kill that kid. Another children's show sitcom. Didn't this kid grow up to be on drugs?

The Flintstones (1960-1966), 1.61b, 6, 160, 11.5m - Continued what the honeymooners started but left out the parts where he threatened to beat his wife. Satire shows started here. Surprised SOl is letting *gasp* an animated show included in his list. Without this show and its constant referencing of newfangled lifestyle merged with dinosaur commentary...there would be no shows like Futurama which got to do the reverse. The great Mel Blanc... It was also an example of a show going a great show going all Happy Days and ruining itself. Before "jumping the shark", shows probably were referred to as "great gazooing".

Get Smart (1965-1970), 1.46b, 5, 138, 13.2m - Freaking brilliant and 60s as all get out. There are not many shows from the 60s actually representative of the 60s. So many of them took us to other lands, other times, other drug trips, other zaniness. This show however even tho it was totally parody of James Bond showed us some 60s with sexy Barbara Feldon as 99. (Originally written as 69). Austin Powers owes a LOT to this series as does any other movie or tv show like POlice Squad, Sledgehammer, That 70s Show, that parodies or styles a whole genre or time period.

The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis (1959-1963), 1.42b, 4, 147, 11.2m - This show was also brilliant. Less successful than Jack Benny and George BUrns, was another example of the main character breaking the 4th wall and then jumping in and out of the sitcom action. This was different though. This was not a comedian giving a monologue and then doing a sitcom. This was a sad sack comic character commenting about his life then living it. All from a teen perspective. Let's count the shows about young people's lives this probably influenced...The Wonder Years, Freaks & Geeks, Family Ties, Square Pegs(hey we didn't include this one), and every John Hughes film ever! Warren Beatty and Bob Denever both had fantastic characters in this show.

I Dream of Jeannie (1965-1970), 1.42b, 5, 139, 12.1m - This is the sister comedy to Bewitch and for my money a more solid one. Complete zany farce that of which the 60s were great at delivering. The breakneck pace at which this show went including the gobs of misunderstandings absolutely influenced the likes of THree's Company, Third ROck From the Sun, even both Newhart shows, Also a show about adult single life and dating as opposed to the family show which also leads to Seinfeld. And let's just throw in Mork & Mindy as a reverse-gender clone. And funny as hell. Larry Hagman, Barbara Eden, Bill Daily, and Hayden o Roarke just fantastic timing.

McHale's Navy (1962-1966), 1.41b, 4, 138, 11.8m - another military comedy alongside Gomerpyle and Hogan's Heroes. Joe Flynn was brilliant as the commander and he used his distinctive voice in cartoons like The Hair Bear BUnch. Also the great Tim Conway came from here. This doesn't really hold up as well as Hogan's does tho. There are a lot fewer stakes here, Ernest Borgnine or not.

Bachelor Father (1957-1962), 1.35b, 5, 157, 9.0m - NEver heard of it.

That Girl (1966-1971), 1.26b, 5, 136, 9.5m - Light years ahead of its time. The women's movement in the workplace gets its own representative. funny and smart and adorable Marlo THomas. An oh so prudish crush. Alondside Get Smart a great representative of 60s life. Again...to be single and adult and not after a family life. That started here for women. Let's see...Murphy Brown, Caroline in the City, Frasier, Mad About You, all owe it to this show.

My Favorite Martian (1963-1966), 1.26b, 3, 107, 13.6m - Not as good as I Dream of Jeannie because it had no sexual tension. Now if only David Banner were gay with Mr Hand. Then we'd have a show.

The Gale Storm Show (1956-1960), 1.20b, 4, 126, 12.1m - Never heard of.

The Patty Duke Show (1963-1966), 1.16b, 3. 104, 12.3m - Adorable this freaking show. MAke a show out of Disney's The Parent Trap and you have this. It worked. It oh so TOTALLY worked. Kitchy and hip. THe prude and the swinger. Which girl do you like? The Betty or Veronica? The WIlma or betty? Ginger or Mary Ann? Which of Charlie's Angels was for you?!? That kinda started here.

The Joey Bishop Show (1961-1965), 1.15b, 4, 123, 11.0m - NEver saw.

Mayberry R.F.D. (1968-1971), 1.12b, 3, 78, 14.8m - I can only assume it was a terrible spinoff like AfterMASH, The Joey Show, Golden Palace, Mama's Family.

Gilligan's Island (1964-1967), 1.11b, 3, 98, 13.0m - Hard to believe this show is so far down the rankings when it has had SUCH a HUGE cultural effect and is one of those Brady Bunch shows where EVERYONE grew up with it. A terrific and distinct ensemble which greats like Bob Denver, Jim Backas, Russel JOhnson, Dawn Wells, etc. You can see its influence in shows like M*A*S*H, Newsradio, Hogan's Heroes, WKRP, etc...when making the show...okay you got a nutty premise in a nutty place...now you need one of every type of character. I kinda felt that this show was the blueprint for that...saying you need each type of stock character.

The Phil Silver Show (You'll Never Get Rich) (1955-1958), 1.05b, 4, 107, 11.6b - Phil Silvers was brilliant and way ahead of his time. IT said that you CAN have a show about a character you despise...that IS a bad guy. Things like Seinfeld and Married With Children...yeah they came from here.

Julia (1968-1971), 1.02b, 3, 86, 14.3m- Never heard of.
The Ann Sothern Show (1958-1961), 0.97b, 3, 93, 11.9m - Heard of never saw.
Private Secretary (1953-1957), 0.95b, 5, 104, 11.3m - NEver heard of.
Our Miss Brooks (1952-1956), 0.91b, 4, 131, 7.8m - heard of.

The Munsters (1964-1966), 0.78b, 2, 70, 13.0m - So silly and juvenile. And fun beyond belief. Fred Gwynne and Al Lewis created characters to this day are imitated and morphed into other characters. Monsters as a family...another drug trip of the 60s. Along with The Addams Family. How did this work? Why did this work? Who knows? Again THird ROck from the sun, Mork & Mindy...

The Flying Nun (1967-1970), 0.77b, 3, 82, 9.5m - Aw so adorable. A nun that can fly and helps people. What descends from this? The A-Team that's what!

The Addams Family (1964-1966), 0.70b, 2, 64, 12.6m - the twin-competition to The Munsters. I think this one wins over that one . The writing was funnier, the characters were better. You have comic brilliance of John Astin and Jackie Coogan. Carolyn JOnes was definitely hotter than Yvonne de Carlo and the husband wife definitely were sexually active as opposed to the niceness of an old married couple that munsters had. Plus the weirdness of cousins thing and It were just brilliant concept which tons of gags could be made...however things like this unknowingly led to other things that were all running gag shows like HOme Improvement.

The Courtship of Eddie's Father (1969-1972), 0.70b, 3, 73, 9.7m - I'd almost place this in the drama category. It was so dark and dreary. Bill Bixby was wonderful. Why did they show this show alongside silly comedies. It was always kinda heavy. Single father raising a child. HAving a hip buddy along. Can see its influence in the works of Judd Apatow, Seth Rogen, and such. But really it seemed more drama in how it was presented. Maybe its descendants were things Arrested Develeopment and Scrubs where you can just exist without a laugh track. Life is pretty dark, man. Maybe still ahead of its time.

I Married Joan (1952-1955), 0.65b, 3, 98, 7.9m - never heard of
Topper (1953-1955), 0.59b, 2, 78, 9.0m - never ehard of

F Troop (1965-1967), 0.59b, 2, 65, 9.2m - A pure zany and stupid comedy that went for the stupid gags just for gags sake without really caring about story so much. Definitely early MASH could be seen coming from here (and Jamie Farr was handpicked from this show to play Klinger thanks to Gene Reynolds). Family Guy and SImpsons both get their structure a bit from here.

Car 54, Where Are You (1961-1963), 0.59b, 2, 60, 11.3m - Buddy cop comedy. JOe E Ross was the other with Joe Flynn who translated his character into MANY hanna barbera cartoons like HAir Bear. Al Lewis and Fred Gwynne were actually really good in this and somewhat played opposites to their munster characters. THere was definitely chemistry and strong characterization on this show but in this day and age we can't really see it as funny. I would think this influeced hordes of cop shows though even dramas with comic characters like Hill Street Blues.

The Honeymooners (1955-1956), 0.50b, 1, 39, 10.5m - Only one year? IS that right? Really? REALLY??? Fat loud guy, skinny henpecking wife is a formula that it is. Definitely gave us the Flintstones. And the 00's reached back into the past to pull out a TON of these types of comedies...King of QUeens, Yes Dear, etc. Movies too it influenced. And of course it had one of the first great "wacky neighbor" characters in Art Carney who probably was responsible for more of the humor than anything. And the wacky neighbor principle was indeed a staple of sitcoms to come. THe timing between the two was first rate. But yes Home Improvement came DIRECTLY from this blueprint...Idiot husband has schemes and they blow up in his face and must hide scheme from wife while wacky neighbors are wacky. Rinse repeat. How is this show so low on this list?

[rowech]

I would say:

The Honeymooners
I Love Lucy
The Andy Griffith Show
The Dick Van Dyke Show
Leave it to Beaver
The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet
Bewitched

[CrimsonFox]

I'm thinking I might divide things out by TYPES of comedies to make my decisions as it would be easier to make final cuts then for comparisons.

Couple shows: Flintstones, Honeymooners, I Love Lucy - all three probably deserve it.
Single Life shows: That Girl, I Dream of Jeannie - Both strong
Kids shows: Dennis the Menace, Leave it to Beaver - neither do a thing for me
Teen shows: My Three Sons, Patty Duke, Dobie Gillis - 3 very good shows. Sons probably the standout. DUke innovative. Gillis funny
Workplace/family shows: DIck Van Dyke, I Dream of Jeannie - BOth definites
Workplace ensemble shows: Dick Van Dyke, Hogan's Heroes, Get Smart - 3 more great tough to compare
Military/workplace/cop shows: Hogan's Heroes, McHale's Navy, Car 54 Where Are You, FTroop, Gomer Pyle - HOgan's HEroes only one worthy
Tripped out bizarre trippy shows: I Dream of Jeanie, Bewitched, Munsters, Addams Family, My Favorite Martian, Flying Nun, Gilligan's Isle, Get Smart - Aw the 60s were awesome. Addams beats munsters hands down. Jeannie beats Bewitched and Martian and Nun. Gilligan's isle is cheesey fluff like Brady Bunch and Married were so it will probably get on. Get Smart great but maybe too dated?
Comedian shows: Phil Silvers, Burns & Allen, Jack Benny - of the 3 I like Jack Benny the most. One of these should get on to justify leaving off Shandling.
AMericana simple life shows: Green Acres, PEtticoat Junction, Andy Griffith, Beverly HIllbillies, Leave it to Beaver. - none of them really do anything for me.

[CrimsonFox]

Dick Van Dyke
I Dream of Jeannie
Jack Benny Show
Hogan's Heroes
I Love Lucy
Get Smart
That Girl
My Three Sons
The Flintstones/Honeymooners - one of these
Patty Duke/Dobie Gillis - one of these
Addams Family


culling from that list I guess.

[Warhammer]

In no particular order

I Love Lucy - Lucille Ball and Desi were huge. There's a reason we can still see these on somewhere on reruns.
Hogan's Heroes - I loved this as a kid and still love it to this day.
Get Smart - Great vehicle for the humor of Mel Brooks. Dated, but it influenced so many great shows that came later.
The Addams Family - I never read the cartoons, but loved the show. The interplay between the parents was great. Uncle Fester added a bit of zaniness.
Great show.
The Honeymooners - One season, but still influencing shows today.
The Dick Van Dyke Show - Brilliant, there is a reason this is rated as one of the all time great shows. Haven't seen it in years, and I can still see him doing the Ottoman in the intro.
I Dream of Jeanie - A fun show. Barbara Eden played Jeanie perfectly. Only other one I considered here was The Flintstone and Jeanie beats Wilma in my book.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

I Dream of Jeanie - A fun show. Barbara Eden played Jeanie perfectly. Only other one I considered here was The Flintstone and Jeanie beats Wilma in my book.

[Butter]

The Andy Griffith Show (1960-1968), 3.67b, 8, 249, 15.6m
I Love Lucy (1951-1960), 2.39b, 9, 193, 17.0m
The Dick Van Dyke Show (1961-1966), 2.10b, 5, 158, 17.2m
Leave it to Beaver (1957-1963), 2.00b, 6, 234, 9.0m
Get Smart (1965-1970), 1.46b, 5, 138, 13.2m
The Munsters (1964-1966), 0.78b, 2, 70, 13.0m
The Honeymooners (1955-1956), 0.50b, 1, 39, 10.5m

Yeah yeah, I know. But I watched so many Munsters reruns when I was a kid (I think TBS had them in the afternoon, prime afterschool viewing time) that they are a sentimental favorite.

The Honeymooners squeaks past Gilligan's Island, just based on its legacy alone. Also considered Addams Family, F Troop, Car 54, and Hogan's Heroes. Watched all of these at some point as a child, and remember them all being funny. Addams Family has the longest lasting legacy, and Hogan's Heroes premise is so absurd that I still can't believe it worked.

[CrimsonFox]

Without The Flintstones, the best cereal in the world ever would not exist, nor the constant thieving escapades about them.

Spoiler

just sayin'

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

If several rules were different, we could maneuver them to include The Simpsons, which peaked at 13.4 million households in its debut season (well below the averages of most shows we've discussed).

Promise its my last post in the thread then I will bow out.
But this is wrong.

It peaked at 27.8 average viewers the first season.
As last as 2002 they were still averaging over 14 million.

At least according to wikipedia, which is the first source I find for ratings numbers:
The Simpsons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[JonInMiddleGA]

Brutal, simply brutal. The amount of talent that I had to leave off my list, by far the most difficult era for me to settle on.

My seven
===========
The Andy Griffith Show (1960-1968), 3.67b, 8, 249, 15.6m
The Jack Benny Program (1950-1965), 2.53b, 15, 260, 13.2m
I Love Lucy (1951-1960), 2.39b, 9, 193, 17.0m
The Dick Van Dyke Show (1961-1966), 2.10b, 5, 158, 17.2m
Hogan's Heroes (1965-1971), 1.76b, 6, 168, 13.4m
Gilligan's Island (1964-1967), 1.11b, 3, 98, 13.0m
The Honeymooners (1955-1956), 0.50b, 1, 39, 10.5m
==============

Two of the above -- Hogan & Gilligan -- are honestly not the most deserving for the selection, they're purely me paying homage to my childhood favorite of all the rerun shows in the case of the former & to the sheer volume of reruns of the latter.


How hard was this one for me? I could have been okay with more than twice as many candidates, the first two being the ones I actually had on the list before succumbing to emotion & making changes.

The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet (1952-1966), 3.51b, 14, 425, 11.1m
The George Burns and Gracie Allen Show (1950-1958), 2.15b, 8, 291, 10.8m
The Flintstones (1960-1966), 1.61b, 6, 160, 11.5m
Get Smart (1965-1970), 1.46b, 5, 138, 13.2m
McHale's Navy (1962-1966), 1.41b, 4, 138, 11.8m
The Phil Silver Show (You'll Never Get Rich) (1955-1958), 1.05b, 4, 107, 11.6b
The Munsters (1964-1966), 0.78b, 2, 70, 13.0m
The Addams Family (1964-1966), 0.70b, 2, 64, 12.6m