OT - NSA Building Giant Database of U.S. Phone Calls

[Daimyo]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

And that's the big difference between Democrats and Republicans -- Democrats believe the government is best suited to determine how their citizen's money is spent -- hense Clinton's increase in "social programs" spending during his administration. In essense, a bigger government = better government.

Republicans believe that taxes are only designed to run a smaller government -- that a individual who has earned that money is the person who should determine how their money is sent.

Wow. You do realize that spending has increased more under this republican administration than it did under Clinton right?

If the government is collecting money as a surplus that means they're OVER-collecting taxes from their citizens -- and that is something they should not do. Either lower the taxes or give me the excess back. If Jesse Ventura can do it, Clinton could have too. As a matter of fact, the GOP tried to make it happen, but it was stopped cold.

Do you agree with the following as well?

If the government is collecting money as a deficit that means they're UNDER-collecting taxes from their citizens -- and that is something they should not do. Raise the taxes.

One of the first things Bush did when he hit office is cut taxes and issue an additional refund to a great number of Americans. He gave money back to the people who earned it -- and that's the way it should be.

Unfortunately while he was cutting taxes he also raised spending more than any other president in the last 20 years. How do you see that sort of policy ending?

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

So when you don't quote the line where I dismiss my conjecture pretty well out of hand, are you letting me build your straw man?

Jeeze Glen, touchy? You said there was a slim chance, I respectfully pointed out that there was no chance. I don't see a problem with that.

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

EDIT: This does appear to follow the law, but is still an abuse of power that everyone saw coming at the time of the Patriot Act, and it goes to show that the NSA and the administration could just as easily abuse the power they have given themselves to procure anyone's phone records.

I may have spoken too soon. Recent stuff I have read says that the FBI can use NSL's only for "authorized investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities". They can get a court order for investigating criminal cases, but can not use NSL's.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

If the government is collecting money as a surplus that means they're OVER-collecting taxes from their citizens -- and that is something they should not do. Either lower the taxes or give me the excess back.

Don't ever take out a mortgage. I think it would blow your mind. Seriously. First they give you money you didn't earn, then later expect you to pay it back. It's absurd. Years down the road you're still paying them money, apparently for nothing!!! It's like they take your excess money, even though at that particular moment they aren't doing anything for you. They OVER-collect it in a manner of speaking. You might be well-advised to steer clear of credit cards as well...

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by -Mojo Jojo-

Don't ever take out a mortgage. I think it would blow your mind. Seriously. First they give you money you didn't earn, then later expect you to pay it back. It's absurd. Years down the road you're still paying them money, apparently for nothing!!! It's like they take your excess money, even though at that particular moment they aren't doing anything for you. They OVER-collect it in a manner of speaking. You might be well-advised to steer clear of credit cards as well...

Funny. It's not the same thing and you know it.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Funny. It's not the same thing and you know it.

You must have missed my earlier question: now that there is a deficit, Bush should raise taxes, right?

[SirFozzie]

Interesting.. again, take with a grain of salt because it's from a liberal source (Salon)

According to a report by the Sun's Siobhan Gorman, the NSA shelved the program, called "ThinThread," because of what one official called "turf protection and empire building."

As Gorman explains, the NSA's ThinThread program involved the collection and automated analysis of phone and e-mail records in encrypted form. To alleviate privacy concerns, human analysts could request decryption of specific records only after the NSA's computers identified a pattern or a threat. The system also contained an automated auditing function that would have prevented analysts from misusing the data that was being collected.

Gorman's sources says ThinThread underwent "rigorous testing" in 1998 and got "high marks" for everything it was supposed to do. So what happened to it? After 9/11, Gorman says, Hayden's NSA shelved the program "because of bureaucratic infighting and a sudden White House expansion of the agency's surveillance powers." Translated: NSA officials didn't want to pursue the program because they thought it would "humiliate" another program, called Trailblazer, that Hayden himself had initiated.

The result? Gorman says the NSA is now working with a program that is less useful and more intrusive than ThinThread would have been. "Without ThinThread's data-sifting assets," Gorman says, "the warrantless surveillance program was left with a sub-par tool for sniffing out information, and that has diminished the quality of its analysis, according to intelligence officials."

I like the fact that the information was encrypted and only after the computers determined a possible threat was the specific records available.. would this have been better?

[clintl]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Wild tangent time:

Funny, for all ths surplus the government had I don't remember my taxes being anything less. I don't remember getting an extra refund check. Both things I got from Bush.

That's because Clinton used the surplus to pay down the national debt Reagan and Bush I created with their massive deficit spending.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I like the fact that the information was encrypted and only after the computers determined a possible threat was the specific records available.. would this have been better?

As long as there is a court order needed to decrypt the records, I wouldn't mind it if it was effective.

[Flasch186]

Hey Glen:

A Senate Panel, behind closed doors, voted to bring a constitutional ban on Gay Marriage to the floor this summer. Senator Feingold told Specter it was horseshit to do it behind closed doors and walked out.

When the going gets rough, dig up the homophobic sentiment and that'll rally the base. Im sorry, I absolutely find that pathetic and politically timed to skew attention from all of the other things going on.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/....ap/index.html

told ya it was coming.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Hey Glen:

A Senate Panel, behind closed doors, voted to bring a constitutional ban on Gay Marriage to the floor this summer. Senator Feingold told Specter it was horseshit to do it behind closed doors and walked out.

When the going gets rough, dig up the homophobic sentiment and that'll rally the base. Im sorry, I absolutely find that pathetic and politically timed to skew attention from all of the other things going on.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/....ap/index.html

told ya it was coming.

Feingold is right, but that is likely the only way it's going to get many votes(behind closed doors that is). This issue is DOA in the Senate.

[MrBigglesworth]

Gay marriage as politics?! Next you are going to tell me that the GOP used racism to gain a foothold in the South! Preposterous!

Right, Glen?

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Gay marriage as politics?! Next you are going to tell me that the GOP used racism to gain a foothold in the South! Preposterous!

Right, Glen?

Much more is said about the Republican's use of the "Southern Strategy" than was actually done by Republicans at the time.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Much more is said about the Republican's use of the "Southern Strategy" than was actually done by Republicans at the time.

Fyi, Glen - you're aware that Ken Melman, the RNC chairman, is the guy who went to the NAACP to apologize for the Southern Strategy ? Look, people choose what they want, but lets not pretend that the Civil Rights Act was a (not THE, but a) significant factor in the long term trend of Dixiecrats to the GOP.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Fyi, Glen - you're aware that Ken Melman, the RNC chairman, is the guy who went to the NAACP to apologize for the Southern Strategy ? Look, people choose what they want, but lets not pretend that the Civil Rights Act was a (not THE, but a) significant factor in the long term trend of Dixiecrats to the GOP.

Well, I'm not saying at all that it wasn't discussed and kicked around, not even that it wasn't poorly implemented by Goldwater. I'm saying that yes Nixon's strategists came up with the idea. I'm saying that it really didn't go too far beyond that point. I don't think you can really make a compelling argument that "State's Rights" is code for Racism. If you do, you almost have to claim the William Rhenquist and Ronald Reagan were racists.

Melman(I think there is an "H" in there somewhere) apologized, but he had political and pragmatic reasons to do so. It is fact that it was discussed, contemplated, and arguably fact(I won't disagree) that Goldwater ran with it at heart. Beyond Goldwater, you have more problems making the tie between "State's Rights" and opposition to the Civil Rights Act. Most who talk about the "Southern Strategy" fail to note that more Republicans voted for the CRA than Democrats, those Republicans are also State's Rights believers. Nor is the fact that the one time it was apparently brought into play in a Presidential Election, that it cost Goldwater in a huge way.

In short yes it was plotted, but I'm not really certain you can point to it's actual application and success. It certainly is a great thing for Dems to use to demonize Republicans though. It really works wonders there.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I don't think you can really make a compelling argument that "State's Rights" is code for Racism.

I think you can definately make a compelling case that a good part of "State's Rights" rhetoric encompassed some of the anti-Civil Rights sentiment, kind of like how 'welfare queens' was partially code for black unwed mothers. Not saying someone like Reagan was a racist, but I think his advisors knew how to use those codes. Rhenquist is a bit different because he wasn't using it for getting votes, but as a legal argument.

Let's not kid ourselves. There were plenty of Dixiecrats who saw State's Rights as a way to prevent equal rights to blacks. Everyone may not have seen it that way, but the advisors had to be dumb to not realize what connotations it would have in certain areas of the country.

Most who talk about the "Southern Strategy" fail to note that more Republicans voted for the CRA than Democrats

You realize most of those Democrats who voted against would quickly switch parties after the vote, as they were Southern Dems. LBJ even noted after signing the Civil Rights Act "We've just lost the South for a generation".

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Most who talk about the "Southern Strategy" fail to note that more Republicans voted for the CRA than Democrats...

I think the fact that the Republicans in 1864 were in favor of freeing the slaves and the Dems were opposed only cements your point. If you completely ignore history.

[Flasch186]

hey Glen:

Bush promoting ban on gay marriage

By Matt Spetalnick Fri Jun 2, 4:53 PM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -
President George W. Bush will promote a constitutional ban on gay marriage on the eve of a Senate vote next week, weighing in on an issue that could rally his wavering conservative base in an election year.


Though the proposed constitutional amendment against same-sex marriage stands little chance of passing, it is one of several hot-button causes Republicans are championing to appeal to right-wing voters ahead of November's congressional ballot.

Bush planned to use his weekly radio address on Saturday and a White House speech on Monday to push for the amendment that would allow states to recognize only marriages between men and women, administration officials said on Friday.

Bush has never made a secret of his views on the issue but has rarely talked about it in public until now.

"He believes the institution of marriage is between a man and a woman," White House spokesman Tony Snow told reporters. "The president's made it clear what he wants. He would like to see the Senate pass the bill."

The Senate Judiciary Committee approved the amendment along party lines after a heated session on May 18. Because the measure seeks to change the Constitution, it must pass both houses of Congress by a two-thirds majority and then be approved by at least 38 states.

The full Senate will take up the measure on Monday with a vote expected later in the week, but the bill's sponsor, Colorado Republican Wayne Allard, has acknowledged he has far fewer than the 67 votes needed to win passage.

DOWN IN THE POLLS

Bush is raising his profile on the issue at a time when his public approval rating stands at around 30 percent, the low point of his presidency.

Bush used to be able to count on overwhelming support from fellow Republicans and conservatives.

But the
Iraq war and a series of political blunders have chipped away at that backing, leaving many Republicans worried about losing control of Congress to the Democrats in November.

Critics say the Republicans are trying to exploit anti-gay prejudice to galvanize their conservative base.

Defending Bush's decision to speak out, Snow denied the president was acting out of "political expedience" and insisted he was taking up the issue because it was "politically ripe."

A similar effort failed in the Senate in 2004. Gay marriage has been a hot topic since a Massachusetts court ruled in 2003 that the state legislature could not ban it, paving the way for America's first same-sex marriages in May the following year.

At least 13 states have passed amendments banning gay marriage while two -- Vermont and Connecticut -- have legalized civil unions.

Just over half of all Americans oppose same-sex marriage, according to a March poll by the Pew Research center, down from 63 percent in February 2004.

[NoMyths]