New Orleans Status Updates--NO POLITICS

[Buccaneer]

Speaking of this, I just got the newly released book called The Great Deluge. It is written by perhaps the best living American historian today (Doug Brinkley) who happened to teach at Tulane and clearly documentated and researched nearly everything that was going. Be curious to see what others think of this book (which I will begin reading soon).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006...lance&n=283155

[terpkristin]

Very interesting flash file, and I think I'm going to take a look at that book.

Thanks for the tips, sachmo and Bucc!

/tk

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Speaking of this, I just got the newly released book called The Great Deluge. ... Be curious to see what others think of this book (which I will begin reading soon).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006...lance&n=283155

Sorry Bucc, but there's a goodly number of questions being raised already about Brinkley's motivations for writing this book, enough so that I'm not sure that "clearly documented and researched" is a fair description, at least not until you've read it (if you say the same afterwards then I won't challenge that you believe it).

Basically, there's questions of whether a significant portion of his goal was to try to do a hatchet job on Nagin, questions that I believe are reasonable enough to create some doubt about the veracity of portions of the book (and keep in mind, I say that as somebody who thinks Nagin is one of the biggest damned fools I've ever seen & ain't worth a bucket of warm spit).

Once you've read it through, I would be interested to see what you think of it, particularly whether you feel the book was written as more "scholarly account" or "page turner".

[Buccaneer]

When I said "clearly documented and researched", I meant that in comparison to a general/popular history, which I primarily read. Certainly more documented than a journalistic approach but not to the rigors of a scholarly journal. I didn't this book was positioned otherwise. I don't expect this to be even-handed because I have never read a history book that was - by definition, history is an interpretation of events. But I am curious to some of things that went on that didn't come out during the WWL broadcasts and from the threads here.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I didn't this book was positioned otherwise.

From what I read on this earlier in the week (I'm guessing it was stuff written after the excerpts were in Vanity Fair or something), there was some early attempts to position it as some sort of definitive work on the factual history of the events, instead of the op-ed work that this apparently devolves into a good bit of the time. Some of the excerpts, admittedly chosen by critical reviewers as worst examples) were indeed really poorly written, real "it was a dark & stormy night" type stuff.

I hope you enjoy the book regardless. Lord knows at today's book prices buying one & then feeling like it was a dud is something I find irritating (mostly at myself for making a bad buy).

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

From what I read on this earlier in the week (I'm guessing it was stuff written after the excerpts were in Vanity Fair or something), there was some early attempts to position it as some sort of definitive work on the factual history of the events, instead of the op-ed work that this apparently devolves into a good bit of the time. Some of the excerpts, admittedly chosen by critical reviewers as worst examples) were indeed really poorly written, real "it was a dark & stormy night" type stuff.

I hope you enjoy the book regardless. Lord knows at today's book prices buying one & then feeling like it was a dud is something I find irritating (mostly at myself for making a bad buy).

Except that as a long-time member of the History Book Club, I got this book and another new one (Jeff Shaara's Tour of the Civil War Battlefields) for free (as part of a buy X get X free deal).

[Buccaneer]

I finally started in on this book and read the author's notes at the front. He said something I thought peculiar. He said that while everyone was sort of breathing a sigh of relief that they had "dodged the bullet" (meaning that Katrina didn't come through as bad as could be), long time residents knew something was "wrong" with the city.

Now I could chalk this up to artistic license, esp. writing in hindsight. But one of the things that got me interested in reading this was the fact that we (FOFC) went through this here in that great thread, as well as many of us watching WWL at the same time. Did any of you remember thinking or hearing that the "worse was yet to come" or that "something was wrong with the City"?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I finally started in on this book and read the author's notes at the front. He said something I thought peculiar. He said that while everyone was sort of breathing a sigh of relief that they had "dodged the bullet" (meaning that Katrina didn't come through as bad as could be), long time residents knew something was "wrong" with the city.

Now I could chalk this up to artistic license, esp. writing in hindsight. But one of the things that got me interested in reading this was the fact that we (FOFC) went through this here in that great thread, as well as many of us watching WWL at the same time. Did any of you remember thinking or hearing that the "worse was yet to come" or that "something was wrong with the City"?

No. I actually remember the opposite - I remember that after the storm passed, thinking that New Orleans had, indeed, dodged a bullet.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I was 1200 miles away, and if my memory is right, even I could tell that something was wrong there. Yes, I may have let out a guarded sigh of relief, but I never, ever felt confident that the city was safe.

On another note, whenever this thread pops up, I re-read my big post on page 1. After reading it, I still feel a little bit of that guilt, but then I realize how much my family help me get through it, even with their uncertainty about their own lives. All I have to think about is how strong my family was during that time, and I know that the very same strength is within me. It feels really damn good.

[Dutch]

I remember the "N.O. dodged a bullet" line of thinking for a couple of hours or so, then reports of flooding, and then....well, all hell broke loose.

Speaking of N.O., I'm staying in Biloxi, MS for a school and went up and down the Gulf Coast and the town of Pass Christian is almost completely wiped off the map. We drove through a couple of weeks ago and there were still tents set up for people to live in!

There are ghost communities everywhere. I went to New Orleans last weekend and it's the same thing. The drive in on the I-10 is telling. There are still huge piles of debri, stores gutted, apartment complexes trashed, piles and piles of worthless vehicles piled up under interstate overpasses, homes and churches still out of commission. I saw one apartment complex with a big hole in the roof and somebody painted "help" on the roof. Just horrible. And that's just what I saw from the I-10.

Old town New Orleans seemed to survive just fine. Went to Bourbon Street and it smelled awful, but I think it always smelled bad. I can't really remember. Anyway, the I-10 was not nearly as busy as it used to be in trips past. That probably goes without saying, but notable nonetheless.

The Super Dome roof still looked like it was in bad shape, but apparently it's ready to go for next season.

Not a whole lot of signs of rebuilding going on anywhere, either in New Orleans or the Gulf Coast. I did see businesses with notes on the front and sides of the building. Most said, "You Loot, We Shoot" but some said plainly, "We'll be back."

It's like the entire coast from Biloxi to New Orleans was hit by a nuclear bomb. It's like a post-apocalyptic society in some places. Even here on base in Biloxi you can see brand new military housing duplexes that are abandoned. Smashed windows, open front doors, trash and debri lining the streets...on base! Nobody around. It's all still in rough shape. The only good news is that many people have left the area so the rebuilding will get to happen more naturally. When the businesses come back, so will the people. Or so I hope.

[LloydLungs]

I was in a hotel in McComb, Mississippi on the morning of Katrina. For two days I had already resigned myself to the idea that the city would be submerged. With the power out even up there, I missed most of the "dodged a bullet" stuff on the news, and I'm glad I did because it would have gotten my hopes up. Obviously Katrina did not turn out to be the worst case scenario for New Orleans, but there was such a different feeling of doom leading up to this thing as opposed to previous close calls... I just don't think there were too many locals breathing sighs of relief that soon.

[LloydLungs]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Not a whole lot of signs of rebuilding going on anywhere, either in New Orleans or the Gulf Coast. I did see businesses with notes on the front and sides of the building. Most said, "You Loot, We Shoot" but some said plainly, "We'll be back."

dola

Did you pass through Jefferson Parish just to the west? I say this only because there IS plenty of rebuilding, and frankly overpopulation, in the places that weren't either submerged for a month or completely wiped out by storm surge. God knows that you can't swing a dead cat here in Metairie anymore without hitting a traffic jam.

Large parts of New Orleans are definitely still devastated beyond belief, but the stat that's always thrown out there -- that New Orleans' population is less than half of what it was, etc -- is a little misleading because a good number of those people are now living in Jefferson Parish right next door, my parents being one of many examples. The *greater* New Orleans area is almost as highly populated now as it was pre-storm. A lot of people seem shocked that the Saints have record season ticket sales for this season, but they shouldn't be.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by LloydLungs

dola

Did you pass through Jefferson Parish just to the west? I say this only because there IS plenty of rebuilding, and frankly overpopulation, in the places that weren't either submerged for a month or completely wiped out by storm surge. God knows that you can't swing a dead cat here in Metairie anymore without hitting a traffic jam.

Large parts of New Orleans are definitely still devastated beyond belief, but the stat that's always thrown out there -- that New Orleans' population is less than half of what it was, etc -- is a little misleading because a good number of those people are now living in Jefferson Parish right next door, my parents being one of many examples. The *greater* New Orleans area is almost as highly populated now as it was pre-storm. A lot of people seem shocked that the Saints have record season ticket sales for this season, but they shouldn't be.

I concur. My family lives out in Jefferson Parish, and there are lots and lots and LOTS of help wanted signs out. And way more people who want to be housed than available housing. Waiting lists in the hundreds for certain apartments are not uncommon. And houses are getting sold hours after they reach the market. (Not all of them, but certainly ones above sea level that did not flood). And that same dead cat of which you speak will probably hit a work crew on the backswing. When those work crews finish with Jefferson, they are going to move into Mid-City (which was already starting to come back when I was there over Christmas) and then onto the more devestated parts.

And I can't even imagine what it is like on the North Shore. It has to be even more crowded with even more construction.

From my observations and conversations with various people down there, I think that anyone who says that they know what New Orleans will look like in 10 years is kidding themselves. No one knows because too much still is in the hands of political officials.

If I had to hazzard a guess, however, I would say that in 10 years the City will be back, but with a notable population shift. Very few people living in the East (including the 9th Ward, Chalmette, Mereaux, Arabi, and pretty much all of St. Bernard Parish). There is just no way to protect those areas. A lot more people living to the west and north of the City than pre-Katrina. And Uptown and the French Quarter can't really get much fuller than they were before Katrina, but I can see them maybe getting a bit more affluent as some of the upper middle class from the East moves there.

[Eaglesfan27]

I also concur. My Mother-in-law lives in Jefferson Parish, and it was a PITA the other day to deal with all of the traffic when we went and visited her.

[sachmo71]

I recently found out that a good friend of mine lost his mother in the evacuation.

In the good news department, my niece sold her $70k house in Kenner for $145k. Nice chunk of change for their first flip.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

In the good news department, my niece sold her $70k house in Kenner for $145k. Nice chunk of change for their first flip.

Housing prices in Kenner and Jefferson Parish are INSANE. Part of why I bought in Prairieville is because I was seeing similar homes in Kenner for twice what I paid for this place in Prairieville (which should continue to experience growth over the next ten to fifteen years and hopefully make this a good investment as well as a place to live.)

[Tigercat]

Traffic is better these days in Jefferson Parish. Its getting closer to normal. It was insane when so many were doing the daily commute to and from the area to go to work and work on their houses.

Housing prices are crazy all over the area. A house here in St Charles Parish that would have gone for 120k TOPS before the storm netted 200k from the first interested party a few months ago. And thats the story all over the burbs.

[Buccaneer]

I finished Brinkley's The Great Deluge as I mentioned above http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006...lance&n=283155

I found it to be a really good read and a page-turner, for he is a good writer. It is mostly NO-centric, as one would expect, but he does cover the events before, during and after quite well - giving the reader a diverse range of stories, experiences and points of views.

Here is the main thing I learned:

In any crisis there are two kinds of leaders: those who will act without orders and those will act only with orders. To digress, this is one of the prevailing themes in studies of Civil War battles - to the point of being the difference between winning and losing. I was struck as to the comparison in the performance of field generals in battle and to the leaders involved in Katrina, both good and bad.

Jimga mentioned that this was a hatchet job on Nagin, esp. coming out before the election. I don't agree because his actions (or specifically, inactions) spoke volumes by themselves. When you have someone who's "style over substance" or "didn't want to get his shirt dirty", you can't spin it (as much as they feebly tried to do). His 12-hour inaction on Saturday because he was afraid of being sued (by the hotels) and then hiding in the hotel for four days (except a token appearance in the water and on radio) clearly cost lives. One of my favorite tragic stories was the all of those buses. They didn't get rolling because they "couldn't find drivers", they literally could not find the keys. One whole day was spent by Nagin and his closest advisors tracking down who has the keys because that gave him something to do without doing anything. But he wasn't the kind of leader that was waiting for orders, he just was truly afraid and didn't have any guts. Maybe he has learned his lesson and would provide more leadership the next time it happens.

Much worse than Nagin was his crony, Police Chief Compass. He became a babbling idiot, doing nothing most of the time and what little he did do, it was wrong or made things worse. The book did provide a balance between the good cops and the bad cops but one cannot forget how tragically bad some NOPD performed. Thankfully the situation was made much better when Wiley (good cop) became Chief.

Before going on to the next negative leader, I can't praise enough the job the Coast Guard, the NOLA Homeboys and esp. the W&F did in being prepared and responding quickly on their own initiatives. The bureaucrats tried to hinder them but they kept on moving and saving many lives.

I think history will be kind to Gov Blanco. It was clear that she was overwhelmed and overmatched in her role as governor but she did try to act a number of times, giving the green light to some things at the right time. Her office did spend too much time in legal and bureaucratic negotiations, esp. with the feds, as goverment bodies are apt to do.

OK, now to the fun part. I'm probably going to get flamed for saying this but I believe FEMA acted exactly as they expected to do. In my years of dealing with FEMA and in reading about how they have grown and what they have become since being put in DHS, it was my expectation that they would be the last responders and the single greatest point of bureaucratic red tape that could exist in such a situation. They exceed those expectations.

Brown was an incompetent fool but what came out later, he did (to his credit) sound some alarms but they fell on deaf ears. He was the kind of leader that could not take any initiatives and could not act on his own. In fact, he knew the bureaucratic code very well and everything had to be done according to that code, regardless how long it took. In other words, a requisition of a truckload of water had to make sure that it complied with federal regulations ranging from, my guess, union labor, minority contractors, budgetary compliance and others. It didn't matter that there were urgent needs for water, food, medicine, buses, shelter, etc., you act through the bureaucracy. You do not "shoot and ask questions later". Do you expect any non-military federal bureacracies to do any differently?

Then we have Chertoff. He was the "deaf ear" that was alluded to earlier. There is nothing at all good that could have been said about his alledged leadership and no credits be given in any form (unlike Brown). Chertoff was simply a lawyer surrounded by lawyers that could not do anything original or with a sense of urgency. The one person that could have lit a fire underneath was Bush but he waited too long to do that. Bush had been coming off an aggravating 'vacation' (with Camp Sheehan) and had his attention fully set on the upcoming Roberts hearings. You do fault him for not acting sooner because for whatever reasons, he did not act with a sense of urgency in getting the military involved sooner and in getting the DHS to move. As one Louisiana official said, he did care but not enough.

I don't know, maybe it does all come down to human nature. You really don't know how people will act or react under fire until the bullets start flying. I fully believe that it could have been a lot worse (in terms of lives lost). That does say something to those that worked their butts off in saving lives and to those that persevered under trying circumstances.

[Buccaneer]

tk, sorry for turning this to a political thread but it was the only one that was open and I didn't want to start a new one.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

tk, sorry for turning this to a political thread but it was the only one that was open and I didn't want to start a new one.

Thanks for the summary of the book. FWIW, I did not find your post to cross the line into "politics" as that term is being used in this thread. I'm really glad that you posted it.

[flere-imsaho]

I always shudder when this thread gets bumped... but I enjoyed Bucc's writeup of the book.

I think Bucc's post belongs in the thread so long as the thread continues to be updates/news posts about NO and the contentious discussion heads elsewhere.