The Official 2016 NBA Playoffs Thread

[jbergey22]

Curry must not be 100 percent.

[murrayyyyy]

I know it's easy to throw out the 73 wins wore them out theory but the Thunder are now on a 7-2 run against a 73 win and 67 win team.

Not sure the Thunder are getting enough credit for stepping into the Warriors passing lanes and disrupting their offense when not creating turnovers. Donovan (or the Thunder staff) is out coaching Kerr(swear that Walton looks like the only one coaching half the time).

[Arles]

Gotta love this new NBA where teams jack 30-40 3s a night. They hit them, they win by 20. They miss them, they lose by 20. Makes for a compelling conference final slate

[Young Drachma]

Shout out to Billy Donovan. The Zombie Sonics are playing great ball, it's an entirely different team. They deserve this. Plus the slurpfest over the Warriors was getting to be a bit much, hitting them in the mouth when they didn't see it coming seems fitting if they can close it out.

I still think the Cavs come out of the East, but I'd obviously be fine with Toronto in the Finals. I mean, Orlando and New Jersey both won two conference titles during their tenures, seems appropriate to add Toronto the list of Eastern Conference failures.

Of course, Durant can't leave OKC now, which sucks...because that franchise doesn't deserve to be gifted a franchise player like that.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I think the majority of the reason this game got out of hand was that Klay Thompson had to sit out most of the first half in foul trouble (I'll leave the quality of the three fouls on him up to those who watched). When he hit the bench is right when the Thunder started to pull away. The dropoff from Thompson to Ian Clark is huge, and OKC took advantage of it. When the Warriors went on their run in the third quarter, it was with the starters in. They cut the lead to single digits, then Durant went to the bench for the Thunder. Westbrook was able to hold the lead, and then extend it back out to 12 or so all while Durant was on the bench, and that was the end of the story. The Warriors weren't able to capitalize on Durant being out of the game, and it all fell apart from there.

Originally Posted by Young Drachma

...the slurpfest over the Warriors was getting to be a bit much...

Sure, we totally shouldn't fete the team that won the most games in the history of the NBA in a single season, all while setting unbelievable records throughout. Definitely not a team worthy of the attention.

[wustin]

They got blown out because Draymond Green wasn't himself.

[kingfc22]

Just like all sports. If a team gets hot at the right time (i.e. Playoff time) they can roll right through teams who had better seasons.

Hopefully the Warriors can make this a series as I'd like to see how OKC handles the pressure knowing if they can't close it out in Game 6 they have to go back to Oracle because right now OKC is playing care free with no pressure on them at all.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by wustin

They got blown out because Draymond Green wasn't himself.

They've gotten blown out because the splash brothers are 11-40 from long distance in the past 2 games. Take away Green's 8-12 against Portland in game 3(?) and he's 14-48 from long distance. I'll stick to my claim that Green is only effective when the splash brother are clicking because it's then that he gets open looks.

[digamma]

The Thunder isn't that hot. Their shooting is slightly better than GSW, but it's not like they're shooting 3's at 45% for the series. They're playing defense and rebounding the hell out of the ball. There was a play last night that kind of encapsulated the series: Barnes got the ball in the post for what looked like an easy lay up, but made an extra pass to either Igoudala or Livingston for what looked like an easier lay up. Out of nowhere Ibaka came and challenged the shot and it was missed. They're just playing better on both ends of the court right now.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Yup. The defense OKC is playing has completely rattled the Warriors. They have no flow on offense, and have done an awful job of trying to fix it mid-stream. Part of that is cold shooting by the Warriors (they've missed plenty of lay-ups and open threes), but imagine how out of hand that game would have gotten if Thompson didn't get hot in the third.

[nol]

Long before getting hot or coaching adjustments comes into play, having Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook healthy and available to play 45 minutes (rather than 35 in the regular season) is the reason the Thunder are performing better against the Warriors than the records would indicate.

I mean, the one time Golden State played at OKC this season was the crazy Steph Curry halfcourt buzzer-beater to win it after being down 4 points with 15 seconds to go. Give Westbrook and Durant a few extra minutes earlier on and that game's not within reach.

[wustin]

Their offense is being disrupted by OKC's length. Motion/ball movement is nice but go up against a team whose perimeter defenders have incredibly wingspans (Westbrook, Roberson, Durant), making crosscourt and fullcourt passes incredibly risky.

Curry needs to drop 40 every game now and Draymond needs to channel his inner-Rodman and start snatching down rebounds over 7-footers.

[wustin]

Originally Posted by nol

Long before getting hot or coaching adjustments comes into play, having Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook healthy and available to play 45 minutes (rather than 35 in the regular season) is the reason the Thunder are performing better against the Warriors than the records would indicate.

Westbrook is averaging 2 more minutes than he does in the regular season. Durant about 4. The last 2 games Westbrook has only played like 31 minutes because OKC is blowing GSW out.

[nol]

Originally Posted by wustin

Westbrook is averaging 2 more minutes than he does in the regular season. Durant about 4. The last 2 games Westbrook has only played like 31 minutes because OKC is blowing GSW out.

Hence why I said available.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by nol

Long before getting hot or coaching adjustments comes into play, having Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook healthy and available to play 45 minutes (rather than 35 in the regular season) is the reason the Thunder are performing better against the Warriors than the records would indicate.

I mean, the one time Golden State played at OKC this season was the crazy Steph Curry halfcourt buzzer-beater to send it to overtime after being down 4 points with 15 seconds to go. Give Westbrook and Durant a few extra minutes earlier on and that game's not within reach.

You mean the game Westbrook played 42 mins in that OT game as opposed to the 32 mins he played in game 4 or the 41 last night? Durant "only" played 39 mins in that OT game but he fouled out so he kinda got capped at 39 mins.

Golden State Warriors at Oklahoma City Thunder Box Score, February 27, 2016 | Basketball-Reference.com

[nol]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

You mean the game Westbrook played 42 mins in that OT game as opposed to the 32 mins he played in game 4 or the 41 last night? Durant "only" played 39 mins in that OT game but he fouled out so he kinda got capped at 39 mins.

Golden State Warriors at Oklahoma City Thunder Box Score, February 27, 2016 | Basketball-Reference.com

Yep, that's exactly what I mean, good job! Westbrook played all of overtime so that was only 37 minutes for him in regulation. Durant averages under 2 fouls per game and had some questionable calls against him in that one, so that's another reason to have expected more minutes from him. He fouled out at the beginning of overtime and the Thunder still were able to play the Warriors evenly, with the game being decided by a halfcourt shot on a broken play with time expiring.

What being available to play 45 minutes in the NBA typically means is that a player will get subbed out towards the end of the first quarter, and rather than sit the first 4-6 minutes of the 2nd quarter will be right back in at the start of it. From the Warriors' perspective, there's a pretty big difference between getting to start the second quarter playing against Kyle Singler and Randy Foye rather than Durant and Westbrook when you're already trying to make up a deficit. As the past two games have shown, that can be the difference between letting the opponent back in the game or extending the lead into a blowout.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by Arles

Gotta love this new NBA where teams jack 30-40 3s a night. They hit them, they win by 20. They miss them, they lose by 20. Makes for a compelling conference final slate

Boy I bet you're fun at parties.

"Hey, get a load of this shot clock crap! It's *really* compelling to watch teams jack up shots every 24 seconds!

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by nol

Yep, that's exactly what I mean, good job! Westbrook played all of overtime so that was only 37 minutes for him in regulation. Durant averages under 2 fouls per game and had some questionable calls against him in that one, so that's another reason to have expected more minutes from him.

What being available to play 45 minutes in the NBA typically means is that a player will get subbed out towards the end of the first quarter, and rather than sit the first 4-6 minutes of the 2nd quarter will be right back in at the start of it. From the Warriors' perspective, there's a pretty big difference between getting to start the second quarter playing against Kyle Singler and Randy Foye rather than Durant and Westbrook when you're already trying to make up a deficit.

Wow if there was only a graphic to represent what you try to misrepresent...

Oh here...

PopcornMachine's GameFlows

said overtime game above...

Game 4 below ...

PopcornMachine's GameFlows

You can left click on whatever blocks you want and it will give you the player individual info for that block but if you notice, both times the Thunder played the same sub pattern for that first to second quarter block. Durant comes out first around the 3 min mark all the time and Westbrook comes when Durant goes in before the quarter ends. The only difference as of late is Adams for Singler. They've played this way all season so I'm not sure how you find a 35 min rotation from the OT game versus a 45 min rotation in this series.

[nol]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Wow if there was only a graphic to represent what you try to misrepresent...

Oh here...

PopcornMachine's GameFlows

said overtime game above...

Game 4 below ...

PopcornMachine's GameFlows

You can left click on whatever blocks you want and it will give you the player individual info for that block but if you notice, both times the Thunder played the same sub pattern for that first to second quarter block. Durant comes out first around the 3 min mark all the time and Westbrook comes when Durant goes in before the quarter ends. The only difference as of late is Adams for Singler. They've played this way all season so I'm not sure how you find a 35 min rotation from the OT game versus a 45 min rotation in this series.

Westbrook has played an average of 34 of the first 36 minutes the last two games. Durant sat out two possessions of Game 3 before the Thunder were leading by more than 20. In Game 4 he sat out 2 minutes in the first, went out in the 3rd and checked in 2 minutes later, and was ready to go for the entire 4th. Not rocket science to know that's more than in the regular season, especially when it's about minimizing the amount of time neither of them are in the game (which in the playoffs has been essentially zero non-blowout minutes).

I'm comparing over the entire regular season, when the Thunder played 5-6 minutes per game without either player in the lineup. You pointing out similarities to a particular game in which the Thunder should have beaten the Warriors when the Warriors were playing better than than they are now only underscores the fact that the matchup is much more even than it appeared based on stats amassed throughout the first 82 games and that it doesn't have too much to do with the Thunder 'peaking at the right time.'

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by nol

Westbrook has played an average of 34 of the first 36 minutes the last two games. Durant sat out two possessions of Game 3 before the Thunder were leading by more than 20. In Game 4 he sat out 2 minutes in the first, 2 minutes in the 3rd, and was ready to go for the entire 4th. Not rocket science to know that's more than in the regular season, especially when it's about minimizing the amount of time neither of them are in the game (which in the playoffs has been essentially zero non-blowout minutes).

So it has nothing to do with coaching and sticking your foot on the Warriors neck when they are down in the 3rd in game 3? The reason he stayed in the game was to establish that 37 point lead so he wouldn't have to play in the 4th quarter. He could have been subbed out when it was 105-66 with 3 something left in the 3rd because that game was long over. That would have followed the normal sub pattern but they chose to leave them in and play the 37 point lead for the last 12 mins.

Pick which side of this coin you want to play. They are playing the same amount of games a week during the playoffs as the regular season. They are playing the same sub patterns in the first half (minus Adams for Singler). OKC is a making adjustments while Kerr is staring off into space in his seat.

[jbergey22]

You are both right. Durant/Westbrook are available to play(more likely 42 minutes per game) if needed. With the gameflow and foul trouble it is hard to actually know the rotation. The possible extra minutes at this point has less to do with the outcomes as the Warriors just being outplayed.

[nol]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

So it has nothing to do with coaching and sticking your foot on the Warriors neck when they are down in the 3rd in game 3? The reason he stayed in the game was to establish that 37 point lead so he wouldn't have to play in the 4th quarter.

Pick which side of this coin you want to play. They are playing the same amount of games a week during the playoffs as the regular season. They are playing the same sub patterns in the first half (minus Adams for Singler). OKC is a making adjustments while Kerr is staring off into space in his seat.

What I'm reading from this is that you think it's a brilliant stroke of coaching genius out of left field to play your star players in playoff games as much as humanly possible. Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook want to stick their foot on every team's neck every single time they step on the court regardless of who is coaching them; it's just that they would wear themselves out doing so over an 82 game season even if it would result in the Thunder winning around 70 games. I thought that was pretty much common sense to such an extent that when Frank Vogel was fired, I pointed to his conservative substitution patterns with Paul George when Indiana's bench let the Raptors back into Game 5 as an example of a pretty simple strategic move that got screwed up.


The whole point of playing guys around 35 minutes per game in the regular season is so they have enough left to play huge minutes at playoff intensity in May and June. To the extent that any adjustment is taking place with regards to minutes, it's people in the front office or analytics department convincing coaches to relax with the minutes during the regular season. You'd be hard pressed to find any star player who didn't play significantly more minutes per game during the playoffs. The next biggest adjustment the Thunder have made from last series to this is playing Enes Kanter less. Your mileage may vary, but giving fewer minutes to a big guy who is known as one of the worst (if not the worst) pick-and-roll defenders in the league when you're going against a team famous for shooting a ton of threes strikes me more as basic competency rather than anything special. That was my whole point with the whole Vogel thing: if a team lets go of a vet making $6 million and gets approximately the same amount of production from a rookie making $1.5 million, that's universally hailed as a great move. That should apply to coaches as well, although to a lesser extent since there's no salary cap for them. If you're firing Brad Stevens because of an early playoff exit or letting Steven Adams walk because you feel like you can find a random rookie to fill in for him, then it's clearly an issue.

The Thunder are in position to go to the Finals and possibly win the championship. The last two times they were eliminated from the playoffs with Westbrook and Durant both healthy were at the hands of the eventual champions in the 2012 finals (when the key players were not yet at their prime) and the 2014 conference finals (when they got waxed the first two games with Ibaka out and went 2-2 against the Spurs with one overtime loss, which is better than what Miami did that year). Again, neither rocket science nor a Cinderella story that they are competing with the best in the league, and with all that said, if Curry plays well and the Warriors win Game 5 at home, the narrative will probably do a complete 180 to "OMG Game 6 is a must win. If they blow a 3-1 lead will Durant leave?!"

[nol]

Then in the East, the Cavs are back to kicking the crap out of the Raptors. I remember posting something a while back about how All-Defense teams are at least partially about offense, because otherwise someone like Biyombo would be All-Defense, and now he's looking to be a big free agent after being able to stay on the floor offensively (thanks to being able to catch passes much better now) and thanks to some frontcourt injuries that cleared up some playing time for him. He's got the Yi Jianlian problem where he's likely older than his listed age, but if he were actually 23 he would be a great signing Portland could make with their core.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by nol

What I'm reading from this is that you think it's a brilliant stroke of coaching genius out of left field to play your star players in playoff games as much as humanly possible. Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook want to stick their foot on every team's neck every single time they step on the court regardless of who is coaching them; it's just that they would wear themselves out doing so over an 82 game season even if it would result in the Thunder winning around 70 games. I thought that was pretty much common sense to such an extent that when Frank Vogel was fired, I pointed to his conservative substitution patterns with Paul George when Indiana's bench let the Raptors back into Game 5 as an example of a pretty simple strategic move that got screwed up.


The whole point of playing guys around 35 minutes per game in the regular season is so they have enough left to play huge minutes at playoff intensity in May and June. To the extent that any adjustment is taking place with regards to minutes, it's people in the front office or analytics department convincing coaches to relax with the minutes during the regular season. You'd be hard pressed to find any star player who didn't play significantly more minutes per game during the playoffs. The next biggest adjustment the Thunder have made from last series to this is playing Enes Kanter less. Your mileage may vary, but giving fewer minutes to a big guy who is known as one of the worst (if not the worst) pick-and-roll defenders in the league when you're going against a team famous for shooting a ton of threes strikes me more as basic competency rather than anything special. That was my whole point with the whole Vogel thing: if a team lets go of a vet making $6 million and gets approximately the same amount of production from a rookie making $1.5 million, that's universally hailed as a great move. That should apply to coaches as well, although to a lesser extent since there's no salary cap for them. If you're firing Brad Stevens because of an early playoff exit or letting Steven Adams walk because you feel like you can find a random rookie to fill in for him, then it's clearly an issue.

The Thunder are in position to go to the Finals and possibly win the championship. The last two times they were eliminated from the playoffs with Westbrook and Durant both healthy were at the hands of the eventual champions in the 2012 finals (when the key players were not yet at their prime) and the 2014 conference finals (when they got waxed the first two games with Ibaka out and went 2-2 against the Spurs with one overtime loss, which is better than what Miami did that year). Again, neither rocket science nor a Cinderella story that they are competing with the best in the league, and with all that said, if Curry plays well and the Warriors win Game 5 at home, the narrative will probably do a complete 180 to "OMG Game 6 is a must win. If they blow a 3-1 lead will Durant leave?!"

What I'm getting our of this is you have a reading comprehension problem. You claim that their rotation is different which I have shown is the same with Westbrook and Durant during the regular season. You still claim it is way ahead of being hot or any possible coaching moves they could made even when shown it is the same pattern with the stars in okc all season. You say they have to play on the court together as much as possible but it's simply not the case. I even made the case that they could have pulled them earlier in the 3rd quarter when they were up 105-66 but you chose to ignore that possibility because it didn't fit your statement of them playing wayyyyyyyyyyyyy more minutes in the playoffs.

Am I allowed to question Green as a top 15 player still because he has averaged 1 more fg a game than I did for the last 2 games? Maybe it's that the Warriors were better in their 35 min mode than their 45 min mode. /s

I just fail to see how giving the Thunder coaching staff any credit isn't in your vocabulary because benches get shorter in the playoffs. If that's the case then the Warriors bench should be shorter and that 73 win team should play like an 82 win team. Guess it only works for winning teams is your brilliant stroke of genius.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Arles

Gotta love this new NBA where teams jack 30-40 3s a night. They hit them, they win by 20. They miss them, they lose by 20. Makes for a compelling conference final slate

I had an unpopular opinion of the Warriors brand of basketball back in the regular season thread... I don't yearn for the late 90s days of teams scoring in the 70s and 80s, but I enjoy watching teams that play with a ton of motion and a bit more variety (Spurs the perfect example - and they play with pace, too) more than I do the off-ball screens and the abusing switchers on pick-and-pop/roll plays that are king right now. The league is definitely all on-board with the three point shot bonanza, but there's only one Steph Curry and right now they aren't dropping for him, either. Makes for some dull one-sided games, although some super high scoring and record-breaking ones, too. It's one way to win, and a very good one if you have the shooters for it, but to me it doesn't necessarily make great TV. Unless it's your team that's doing it, anyway.

Most interesting thing about yesterday's game for me is that OKC are winning games like this vs the Warriors despite still being pretty garbage in the halfcourt most of the time. They played that 3rd Q like they were down 10, putting up contested jumpers with lots of time left on the clock. If not for the Warriors missing and letting the Thunder get out on the break with turnovers and long rebounds, it might have been a different result. When GSW did actually force them to play in the halfcourt they didn't run anything far too frequently, instead relying on heroics from Durant and Westbrook. It's working, but it figures to catch up with them at some point - but then, I thought the same would be true with Golden State's 3pt shooting last year.

[sooner333]

The Thunder have changed the rotation, though. They started staggering Westbrook and Durant's substitutions later in the season, and it's worked very well. The Warriors had a hard time capitalizing on Durant being out because Westbrook was in the game.

[nol]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

I just fail to see how giving the Thunder coaching staff any credit isn't in your vocabulary because benches get shorter in the playoffs. If that's the case then the Warriors bench should be shorter and that 73 win team should play like an 82 win team. Guess it only works for winning teams is your brilliant stroke of genius.

No, the Thunder's bench is weaker than the Warriors'. Taking the benches out of the equation for both sides benefits the Thunder and makes the teams much closer. Shaun Livingston against Randy Foye and Andre Iguodala against Kyle Singler are two very advantageous matchups for the Warriors that simply are not there in the playoffs. This is not difficult. I assumed this basic level of competence from the coaching staff going in, which is why I am not surprised at the result of the series thus far, especially if Curry is anything less than 100 percent. In close games, Oklahoma City has been playing 8 guys, so I have no clue how anyone could interpret that as anything other than a drastically shortened rotation.

It's pretty funny to see how my comment that the Warriors would have won 40-ish games with no Curry was taken as such a slight: the Thunder won 'only' 45 games last season when Kevin Durant was hurt for not even the entire year, and obviously Westbrook is better than any non-Curry Warrior!

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Am I allowed to question Green as a top 15 player still because he has averaged 1 more fg a game than I did for the last 2 games? Maybe it's that the Warriors were better in their 35 min mode than their 45 min mode.

Nice goalpost shift. Top 30 was apparently laughable and now it's questionably top 15; if you don't think that's an enormous difference try to make more all-NBA teams and see who ends up on the 7th or 8th team. I don't care enough to argue if someone would put him 16th or something - he is struggling in having to anchor the defense (Bogut is playing 10-15 minutes a game and can't stay on the court without fouling) while keeping a 7-footer who is one of the best offensive rebounders in the league off the glass while being guarded on the other end by Kevin Durant, who has been playing the best defense of his career in these playoffs (and shooting 28 percent from three in the process, almost as though playing All-NBA level defense takes an incredible amount of energy and has a bit of a trade-off on the offensive end). I would expect many players to come up short relative to those expectations, and many do each year. It's just that enough time has passed so we don't remember that Al Horford had a pretty rough go of it against both the Celtics and the Cavs or that Dirk got destroyed defensively and on the boards in a series that happened to be less competitive than most sweeps.

Also worth noting that there are players on 26 teams who have averaged the exact same number of field goals as you over the last week, so you can sound all tough by pointing out how players played badly in the playoffs until the end of the season when you're only left with 8 'top 15' players because 29 of 30 teams end the season on a low note. I mean, I had to argue earlier in the thread that Damian Lillard is one of the top 10 or so players in the league, and that was before his team lost a playoff series to a team that played the majority of the series with Draymond Green as its best player. I'll use a favorite technique of yours and say that when you throw out the game in which he was awesome and scored 40, Lillard was 0-4 against the Warriors and shot 32 percent (the contrast between how Curry looked fresh off of his injury against the Blazers versus how he looks now is probably noteworthy if you want to bring the defensive side of things into the equation as well), so that's another player who apparently sucks.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by nol

Nice goalpost shift. Top 30 was apparently laughable and now it's questionably top 15. I don't care enough to argue that - he is struggling in having to anchor the defense (Bogut is playing 10-15 minutes a game and can't stay on the court without fouling) while keeping a 7-footer who is one of the best offensive rebounders in the league off the glass while being guarded on the other end by Kevin Durant, who has been playing the best defense of his career in these playoffs (and shooting 28 percent from three in the process, almost as though playing All-NBA level defense takes an incredible amount of energy and has a bit of a trade-off on the offensive end).

Also worth noting that there are players on 26 teams who have averaged the exact same number of field goals as you over the last week, so you can sound all tough by pointing out how players played badly in the playoffs until the end of the season when you're only left with 8 'top 15' players because 29 of 30 teams end the season on a low note. I mean, I had to argue earlier in the thread that Damian Lillard is one of the top 10 or so players in the league, and that was before his team lost a playoff series to a team that played the majority of the series with Draymond Green as its best player. I'll use a favorite technique of yours and say that when you throw out the game in which he was awesome and scored 40, Lillard was 0-4 against the Warriors and shot 32 percent (the contrast between how Curry looked fresh off of his injury against the Blazers versus how he looks now is probably noteworthy if you want to bring the defensive side of things into the equation as well), so that's another player who apparently sucks.

Come on Nol, you know I had to jab back just like you with the Gasol comment or the stats posted after his performance in a loss to Portland when you declare him shooting at God/Curry like status. Hence the little /s (denoting sarcasm) at the end. Maybe it's just funner when you do it Just wanted to give you a little ruffle back bud. Relax...

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by sooner333

The Thunder have changed the rotation, though. They started staggering Westbrook and Durant's substitutions later in the season, and it's worked very well. The Warriors had a hard time capitalizing on Durant being out because Westbrook was in the game.

Havent they been staggering them for 2-3 years? If I remember correctly one of them comes out with about 3 minutes left in the 1st while one of them play the entire first and then rest. One will comes back with 9 minutes left in the 2nd while the other comes back around the 6 minute mark. Were they doing this different late in the season?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Havent they been staggering them for 2-3 years? If I remember correctly one of them comes out with about 3 minutes left in the 1st while one of them play the entire first and then rest. One will comes back with 9 minutes left in the 2nd while the other comes back around the 6 minute mark. Were they doing this different late in the season?

I don't know the actual answer, but Bill Simmons has been bitching about OKC not doing this seemingly forever, and I only half-listen to his NBA stuff these days.

[nol]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Havent they been staggering them for 2-3 years? If I remember correctly one of them comes out with about 3 minutes left in the 1st while one of them play the entire first and then rest. One will comes back with 9 minutes left in the 2nd while the other comes back around the 6 minute mark. Were they doing this different late in the season?

Yeah, there has always seemed to be some resistance to it from the two players but it eventually happened under Brooks just as it is eventually happening in the playoffs this year, and as I pointed out, making sure one of Durant and Westbrook is always on the court is not a particularly difficult task when Durant is only going to be sitting out 2-3 minutes in a close playoff game. Scott Brooks was doing it in the postseason, to the extent that 'don't take Kevin Durant out of a playoff game that's still in the balance unless he fouls out or is really, really tired' is even something that requires any thought, and when everyone was healthy the results since 2012 (more conference finals appearances than anyone other than the Spurs and team LeBron during that span even with all the season-ending injuries) have been up there with anyone else's. The Thunder are currently on the verge of being 9-2 in any series in which Durant and Westbrook both made an appearance since 2012; I was there to see the minutes being staggered back in 2014 against the Clippers, and in 2013 there was no Westbrook, so it's definitely been in effect for a while.

Actually for shits and giggles, I looked at the first 2 games of the playoffs in 2013; in Game 1 against the 8 seed Rockets the Thunder got outscored 7-2 in one first-quarter minute's worth of playing with Durant and Westbrook both out, and the next time both players were out of the game the Thunder had a 30-point lead in the 4th quarter. If they weren't doing it before that game, they certainly were from that point on (game 2 Durant played 45 minutes, and Westbrook got hurt in game 3). And of course before that season, if Westbrook and Durant were out they at least had Harden in there, and prior to that they just sucked and it was probably worth only playing them together to build chemistry while letting the team suck enough to get another high draft pick.

It's harder to juggle in the regular season (doing so perfectly would require one or the other to come off the bench, which obviously would never happen, but even cutting 5-6 of those minutes with neither player in down to 2-3 would make a noticeable diference over 82 games), which is why we don't see Oklahoma City posting these astronomical 65-70 regular season win totals even though they clearly have the talent to compete with such teams come playoff time. The fact of the matter is that 'not staggering' is something that will naturally correct itself in the playoffs, regardless of whether the coaching staff (obviously don't need to feel too bad for Scott Brooks' plight given what he's getting paid in Washington now) was even aware of the issue or trying to address it.

The analogy from another sport would be like the 2001 Arizona Diamondbacks. I don't think 'getting hot' or 'peaking at the right time' or 'brilliant managerial decision' explains much compared to the simple fact that Curt Schilling and Randy Johnson pitched some fraction of the innings during the regular season and a significantly higher fraction of the postseason innings. Every baseball team's ace pitcher is going on fewer days of rest, and every basketball team's star players are playing more minutes in the postseason.

Actually that's a pretty funny comparison in the context of hearing certain people think the NBA is unwatchable because the players 'don't try hard enough;' I doubt Clayton Kershaw or Jake Arrieta are out there throwing every single fastball at peak velocity and begging the manager to let them start on three days' rest in July and August, but you don't hear about them 'cheating the fans' or 'not trying until the playoffs.'

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Hence the little /s (denoting sarcasm) at the end.

I learn something new everyday I guess.

I can now relax until tomorrow, today is covered

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I learn something new everyday I guess.

I can now relax until tomorrow, today is covered

I swear it takes me 5 mins to remember what MRW stands for every time I see it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

I swear it takes me 5 mins to remember what MRW stands for every time I see it.

Dammit. You could have saved that one for tomorrow.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Dammit. You could have saved that one for tomorrow.

#MakingTheOfficial2016NBAPlayoffsThreadFunAgain

[AENeuman]

So never been a NBA history guy, I just saw how few teams there were until the 70's. So, is there some sort of mental asterisk for all those Celtic teams, given there were only 8 teams in the entire league at the time?

[nol]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

So never been a NBA history guy, I just saw how few teams there were until the 70's. So, is there some sort of mental asterisk for all those Celtic teams, given there were only 8 teams in the entire league at the time?

Well, it works both ways in that in an 8-team league you should be more likely to be up against teams that have multiple All-Stars or players who rank among the top X in the world, whatever you consider X to be. It's probably more sufficient to say that the Celtics had a massive advantage over the rest of the league in terms of using 'advanced metrics' (blocked shots weren't even recorded back then and the Celtics had a below-average offense in all but one year of Russell's career, and the Celtics would play at the fastest pace in the league BY FAR) to acquire undervalued players who didn't necessarily pass the 'eye test' (because they happened to be black and most teams were running under a quota of how many black players could be on the floor at the same time).

If they did All-Defensive teams back then the first team would probably be Wilt Chamberlain and four Celtics most years, and you could probably throw a Boston bench player or two on the 2nd team. You can say in the modern NBA you have to score, but if your starting lineup happened to be Patrick Beverly, Tony Allen, Kawhi Leonard, Draymond Green, and prime Joakim Noah and had guys like Andre Iguodala coming off the bench with Gregg Popovich coaching, that team would do just fine for itself (especially when it would mean that the Spurs/Warriors/Thunder would be missing some of what makes them so good).

Like can you imagine that the two best players on a team that had won 60 straight games and back-to-back national titles (the first time that had ever been done in college basketball) and the gold medal-winning Olympic team were drafted 3rd (and then traded to the Celtics) and 13th overall? It's not even like there were underclassmen in the draft pool who could have been said to have 'higher upside.'

tl;dr the 8 team league has less to do with the run of titles than Red Auerbach knowing what he was doing at a time when pretty much everyone else in charge knew less about basketball than Skip Bayless does today.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

So never been a NBA history guy, I just saw how few teams there were until the 70's. So, is there some sort of mental asterisk for all those Celtic teams, given there were only 8 teams in the entire league at the time?

The 56 draft is what made the Celtics back then. The NBA had "territorial picks" where you could trade your first round pick in for getting a player in the draft with 50 miles of your arena (to build up the fan base locally). The Celtics used it in 56 to take Tom Hienson. (Think they jumped from 7th pick to getting the guy automatically)

Rochester had Maurice Stokes and needed a guard so they were passing on Russell for a shooting guard. St. Louis had the #2 draft pick but had a major problem as the town and ownership were huge racists(remember, this is 1956). They didn't want to pay a black man (much less a defensive guy like Russell) a bonus of 25k and wanted an all white team so they asked for Macauley (St. Louis roots, white, 6 time all-star center). Boston made the deal, then St. Louis pulled out and demanded Cliff Hagan (had been sitting out because of military service but would be a future 6 time all star) also. Red finally gave in because he wanted Russell that bad.

Then they also drafted KC Jones in that draft also. So they got 3 NBA hall of fame players in one draft added to a team that finished 2nd the year before and the rest is history.

[nol]

Here are the all-NBA teams. The center situation is kind of a joke; pretty good reminder that with only 36 names receiving votes and the center on each team being worse than the other players, the 30th-best player in the league is likely some guard or forward who didn't get a single vote for any of the all-NBA teams like Nic Batum or J.J. Redick, so it's not a very high bar to clear at all.

[wustin]

I don't understand why they just don't do it like how they did with the all-star voting. Two backcourt, three frontcourt.

That way you would have Curry, Westbrook, Kahwi, Lebron, and Durant as first team. Those are the top 5 players in the NBA today anyways.

[Groundhog]

Warriors actually running some good stuff and not nearly as careless with the ball, while the Thunder are playing halfcourt and relying on too much iso from Westbrook...

[Groundhog]

Another infuriating Westbrook moment... throws a bad pass on his drive, GSW steal, run down the court, Klay misses, Green gets the ball, puts it up and in, and the whole time Westbrook hasn't been back in the play.

[Groundhog]

I don't know which one is prettier - the Ibaka open jumper, or the Livingston post-up jumper. Both seem to go in roughly 100% of the time.

[Vince, Pt. II]

That Livingston post-up is fantastic. He has been such a tremendous pick-up for the team. I've always liked him, but I like him way more now that he's on the team I root for.

Warriors with a tough, gut-it-out kind of win. Which does not bode well for the trip back to OKC. It seemed that every time they got something going, Durant hit a huge shot, or the Warriors would turn around and turn it over immediately. You can only win one game at a time though, and if they can steal the game in OKC, anything can happen in game 7 and Oracle will be a very difficult environment to play in.

[Groundhog]

Warriors just need to protect the ball and there's no reason why they can't take the next two games, outside of some MVP-type heroics from Durant and/or Westbrook individually.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Warriors just need to protect the ball and there's no reason why they can't take the next two games, outside of some MVP-type heroics from Durant and/or Westbrook individually.

Agreed. Twitter is bitching a lot about the energy the Warriors are expending to defend OKC as if that matters when the result is a Warriors victory.

[jbergey22]

Home court cures all ills. The Warriors might have needed that wake up call in games 3 and 4. They may have just realized that they cant just walk through these playoffs on their 73 wins and actually have to play with effort for 48 minutes against other great teams. Bogut and Green were playing with the energy I was used to seeing out of them tonight. Bogut needs to be on the court and they need to get out of sitting him when teams go small. He creates so many 2nd chances and keeps the ball moving.

[nol]

Win or lose, I like that the Thunder have been able to get to this point with a rotation full of players who, other than Durant, would have been considered combine wonders or athletes who don't know how to play basketball. The ones who inspire the columns and takes along the lines of "apparently in the NBA players who stay in school are automatically worse because why would anyone draft these guys instead of proven winners Tyler Hansbrough/Shabazz Napier/etc.? Having a long wingspan doesn't put the ball in the basket for you!"

That steal by Curry when isolated against Durant was so awesome, and then he followed it up with that drive. I don't want to extrapolate too much based on one game but I thought the Warriors had as good a chance as any team that's ever been down 3-1 going in, and that between these two games it looks they've realized that the Thunder are forcing them to play relatively ugly by their standards (ie immediately reversing the ball rather than trying to throw a home run pass or even spending a second scanning for an opportunity) and that's just going to have to be the way to win.

[murrayyyyy]

SMH (that's for you Jon).

Is anyone still convinced this is part of his shooting motion?

https://www.instagram.com/p/BF6Y-2gDBnw/

Look, it's become obvious that the league refuses to do anything about it but can my new shooting motion be shooting the ball and after the release throwing my right hand forward towards the defensive players face? I thought it was just me last night when I saw it but this seems to be a decent shot of it. He kicked his leg so high in the air it hit someones face. Natural shooting motion my ass.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

SMH (that's for you Jon).

Is anyone still convinced this is part of his shooting motion?

https://www.instagram.com/p/BF6Y-2gDBnw/

Look, it's become obvious that the league refuses to do anything about it but can my new shooting motion be shooting the ball and after the release throwing my right hand forward towards the defensive players face? I thought it was just me last night when I saw it but this seems to be a decent shot of it. He kicked his leg so high in the air it hit someones face. Natural shooting motion my ass.

Didnt even notice that. That is awful. NBA really needs to do something about that. Every time he gets off balance someone is in danger of getting kicked in the balls or drop kicked to the head.

I could understand if it was part of an awkward rare shot but when it starts happening every single game it becomes a serious problem. Didnt even look like Westbrook noticed as he was caught up in the action.