Sources: Goodell determines Pats broke rules by taping Jets' signals

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by TroyF

GOD I FUCKING HATE THE PATRIOTS

This is all I hear when Troy talks about the Patriots.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by VPI97

lol

I'm agree. I think PFT went WAY over the top with that one.

Hah. Yeah, wow.

[larrymcg421]

The fact that he took less money to stay in New England suggests that he knew (or feared) that he might not be able to replicate his success in a system that doesn't involve videotaping defensive signals.

What kind of assinine conclusion is that? I mean, he might have been worried that he wouldn't be as successful elsewhere, but how does that imply he knew there was cheating? It might just mean he knew that he was in a successful system and there was no reason to fuck with it.

[st.cronin]

Tom Brady did not take less money to stay in New England. He took less money from the Patriots, yes, but his total earning potential as a Patriot is much higher than it would be for any other team.

[albionmoonlight]

LOL at PFT.

[SirFozzie]

Thanks for proving our point, PFT.

[Deattribution]

When I saw this thread went another 3 pages since I last posted I figured surely something new had been brought up (news about the defensive mics ect) but I see it's just another 3 more pages about the 'persecuted' Pats.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by molson

I agree with all that.

I just don't see where any Patriots fans are being assholes in this thread.

I'm just speaking to your defense of the hypothetical that Patriots fans are assholes. You seemed to justify the possibility by the fact that you "suffered" through a decade of poor seasons. I think this whole damned thread is full of people defending themselves from insults/accusations that have not occurred in this thread (on both sides).

[Surtt]

From Yahoo Sports

New England coach Bill Belichick still won't comment on Patriots' alleged spying

When did this become alleged?

They have the tape, the commissioner has found them guilt, and Belichick hasn't even denied it.

[SirFozzie]

Point of order the commissioner has NOT found them guilty yet, all that's coming from is Mortenson.. but yes, Belichick has pretty much admitted it.

[molson]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

You seemed to justify the possibility by the fact that you "suffered" through a decade of poor seasons. insults

That wasn't my point, I was just expressing how weird it is to be a fan of a horrible team, and then suddenly, when they start winning, you can't get through a discussion of the team without people bringing up how their fans suck.

[Kodos]

Too much success creates bad fans. It brings in the bandwagoners, and it makes longtime fans arrogant and cocky (but not funny). A fact of life in sports.

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Point of order the commissioner has NOT found them guilty yet, all that's coming from is Mortenson.. but yes, Belichick has pretty much admitted it.

If you can't trust Chris Mortensen, who can you trust?
< /sarcasm >


I stand corrected.

Mortensen reported: NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has determined that the New England Patriots violated league rules Sunday when they videotaped defensive signals by the New York Jets' coaches.

But Goodell hasn't officially said anything yet.

[gstelmack]

The status was the Goodell said that it looked like they had violated the rule, but the Patriots had not yet responded. Belichick has since responded about their interpretation of the rules. No information on what Goodell thinks after the Patriots response.

If you will, the Grand Jury found grounds to prosecute, the prosecution has laid out its case, the defense has rested, and we're still waiting to hear what the judge's decision is.

[rkmsuf]

Would be the funniest thing ever if the commissioner issued no penalties in this case.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Would be the funniest thing ever if the commissioner issued no penalties in this case.

No. But banning Belichick from the league would be.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Kodos

No. But banning Belichick from the league would be.

he would not accept it

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Too much success creates bad fans.

Yet another reason that Leaf Nation are the greatest fans in the world.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Would be the funniest thing ever if the commissioner issued no penalties in this case.

Or fined Mangini for being a tattle-tale.

[King of New York]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Yet another reason that Leaf Nation are the greatest fans in the world.

Heh heh

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Yet another reason that Leaf Nation are the greatest fan in the world.

Fixed it for you.

[Atocep]

Dr Z addresses this in his latest column. Some very interesting stuff in it.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...x.html?eref=T1

Last year the Lions played the Patriots in Foxboro. At one point their coach, Rod Marinelli, phoned up to the press box, "There's a camera pointed right at our defensive coach making his calls. Is that allowed?" A Lions' employee called the NFL booth. No, it certainly was not. So the videotaper was stopped. Then after a while he began again. The same process was repeated and he was asked to stop again.

"At one point we had a good drive going against the Patriots," said one Lion who doesn't want his name involved in this mess, but was willing to talk about it. "Mike Martz really had 'em going. They were getting fouled up, lining up wrong, we were moving the ball. Then boom, the headset from the sidelines to the coaches' booth goes out.

"Next possession we were moving the ball again and the same thing happened. You know it only takes two or three plays to mess up a drive."
Matt Millen, the Lions' GM, was talking to Bengals' coach Marvin Lewis at the league meetings. He started telling him the story.

"Yeah, I know," Lewis said. "Headset went out. It happened to me in Foxboro, too."

As a former Patriots employee, Jets coach Eric Mangini must have known what was going on. So why didn't he have some kind of system of dummy calls set up to foul up the video surveillance?

"He did," says a former Patriots employee whose name cannot be used for obvious reasons. "He had three sets of signals being given, one real, two dummy. He had the same thing going when he beat the Patriots last year. But still, it means extra work, changing the way you prepare for a game. It means both clubs are not playing on the same level field, and that's what's wrong about it."

[thesloppy]

As a Lions fan, let me just say that if you have to cheat to beat the Lions you really DO have a problem.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

As a Lions fan, let me just say that if you have to cheat to beat the Lions you really DO have a problem.

I bet Matt Millen is now kicking himself for not trading those 1st round picks for stealth video equipment.

[thesloppy]

I think Millen did try to buy a competitive advantage, but he gave the cassh to Charles Rogers and Mike Williams and ended up with a dime bag and a sack of doughnuts.

[watravaler]

I expect ESPN/NFL to furiously direct all blame/punishment on BB, and BB alone. This thing needs to be crushed without airing the leagues truly dirty laundry. IMO, this taints everything about the BB era Patriots. History will certainly frown upon the dynasty. The golden boy QB may look a bit different without the benefit of seeing the opponents cards...

[wade moore]

If there was ever any factual evidence of the headset claims produced, that would be damning for the Pats - FAR more dramatic than this fiasco with the camera. The camera is bad, but as others have said it's not some over the top advantage. But if there really was proof that they are jamming the headset signals of other teams...

That being said, I'd be at least somewhat surprised if it were true and shocked if there is any real proof.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by wade moore

If there was ever any factual evidence of the headset claims produced, that would be damning for the Pats - FAR more dramatic than this fiasco with the camera. The camera is bad, but as others have said it's not some over the top advantage. But if there really was proof that they are jamming the headset signals of other teams...

That being said, I'd be at least somewhat surprised if it were true and shocked if there is any real proof.

Well, one thing that will change is that IF the Pats actually jammed headsets, that practice will stop now that all this is hitting the media. ...but if these occurrences were simply mechanical failure (occam's razor), this seemingly gives free reign for it to be a post game topic should it occur again. Kinda like UFO sightings...if someone sees something weird in the sky, it's no big deal...but if you see something weird and you recently saw a program on UFO's, then you start to say you saw a UFO.

[jeff061]

This will all blow over. Until next year when the media pumps it up again around draft time when their spot is skipped.

I don't care what anyone says, it's not a big deal. Note Pats haters, I am not defending them or saying they shouldn't be penalized.

Sad I need to add that disclaimer.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by VPI97

Well, one thing that will change is that IF the Pats actually jammed headsets, that practice will stop now that all this is hitting the media. ...but if these occurrences were simply mechanical failure (occam's razor), this seemingly gives free reign for it to be a post game topic should it occur again. Kinda like UFO sightings...if someone sees something weird in the sky, it's no big deal...but if you see something weird and you recently saw a program on UFO's, then you start to say you saw a UFO.

You are spot on.

[TargetPractice6]

Originally Posted by jeff061

This will all blow over. Until next year when the media pumps it up again around draft time when their spot is skipped.

I don't care what anyone says, it's not a big deal. Note Pats haters, I am not defending them or saying they shouldn't be penalized.

Sad I need to add that disclaimer.

And Pats fans really can't figure out where the "haters" are coming from...

[SirFozzie]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ick/index.html

Interesting. First Day Pick (Don't think it will be a first rounder, probably a 2nd rounder), and a possible 2-3 week suspension of Belichick, to start after week 2) is what's being reported right now.

I think it's rather fair (harsh if it's a first rounder, 2nd rounder seems right), but let the conspiracy theories flow that Belichick would be available for the Chargers game, but miss games against the Bills, Bengals and Browns (two out of three that the Patriots could likely win without Belichick on the sidelines, and the third that would be more of a pickem or favor the Bengals)

[Buccaneer]

Troy, when they start suspending most players long-term for juice abuse that leads to shutting down teams and postponing your precious NFL, call me. Otherwise, just continue your hypocritical indignation.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ick/index.html

Interesting. First Day Pick (Don't think it will be a first rounder, probably a 2nd rounder), and a possible 2-3 week suspension of Belichick, to start after week 2) is what's being reported right now.

I think it's rather fair (harsh if it's a first rounder, 2nd rounder seems right), but let the conspiracy theories flow that Belichick would be available for the Chargers game, but miss games against the Bills, Bengals and Browns (two out of three that the Patriots could likely win without Belichick on the sidelines, and the third that would be more of a pickem or favor the Bengals)

Apparently, According to ESPN's John Clayton, it's not going to be a first rounder because the NFLPA thinks it will hurt the player pool (one less new player coming in making 2+ million a year to start, I guess).

I don't like that reasoning, but understand that if they mess too much with the draft, the NFLPA can probably drag it out with the arbitrators and the like, and the NFL wants to put it behind them.

[molson]

Originally Posted by jeff061

This will all blow over. Until next year when the media pumps it up again around draft time when their spot is skipped.

I highly doubt that.

This will follow the Pats around, at least this season. If they lose decisively to the Chargers, the rumblings will be it's because they're now playing clean (which is an insult to the Chargers).

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by molson

I highly doubt that.

This will follow the Pats around, at least this season. If they lose decisively to the Chargers, the rumblings will be it's because they're now playing clean (which is an insult to the Chargers).

Yeah - this has to come up after every loss, especially if they have more than people expect them to this year.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by TargetPractice6

And Pats fans really can't figure out where the "haters" are coming from...

I'd say that about any team, Pats, Colts, Jets, whoever. This whole thing is stupid.

I posted the first link to this story in the game day thread, had no clue it would break out in the way it has.

[wade moore]

ESPN just reported during the WVU game that the Pats forfeit their 1st rounder if they make the playoffs.

I didn't have the sound on, so I don't know what happens if they don't make it - I'm assuminga 2nd. Did anyone else hear?

[henry296]

Decision from NFL:

Belichick fines 500K, Pats fined 250K and lose 1st round pick if make playoffs.

[Racer]

Originally Posted by wade moore

ESPN just reported during the WVU game that the Pats forfeit their 1st rounder if they make the playoffs.

I didn't have the sound on, so I don't know what happens if they don't make it - I'm assuminga 2nd. Did anyone else hear?

BB fined $500,000. $New England fined 250,000. Patriots lose a 1st rounder if they make the playoffs or a 2nd and 3rd rounder if they miss the playoffs.

[Maple Leafs]

No suspension, though.

[henry296]

Originally Posted by wade moore

ESPN just reported during the WVU game that the Pats forfeit their 1st rounder if they make the playoffs.

I didn't have the sound on, so I don't know what happens if they don't make it - I'm assuminga 2nd. Did anyone else hear?

ESPN.com says 2nd and 3rd if miss playoffs.

[Mantle2600]

Seems pretty fair, but probaly should have gotten at least a 1 game suspension.

[wade moore]

Anyone else find it backwards that BB is fined double what the team is?

Maybe it's just me but it seems that this has to be pretty sanctioned by the team - plus the team hurts from a fine less than an individual does.

[Maple Leafs]

Pats have the 49ers 1st rounder this year, though, correct?

[Maple Leafs]

Has this been posted yet?

[jeff061]

1st rounder is way too much. Should have been a 2nd or a 3rd and a 1 game suspension. But my homer satus definitely comes though in this .

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by Racer

BB fined $500,000. $New England fined 250,000. Patriots lose a 1st rounder if they make the playoffs or a 2nd and 3rd rounder if they miss the playoffs.

They should have been banned from the playoffs this year.

As far as the NFLPA goes, the players are participants in the cheating. Doesn't give them much of a case against one less first round money slot.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Troy, when they start suspending most players long-term for juice abuse that leads to shutting down teams and postponing your precious NFL, call me. Otherwise, just continue your hypocritical indignation.

Bucc, I consider you a friend, but could you please get a grip.

1) I didn't suggest Beli should or would get suspended. I suggested they lose a first round pick and that it be given to the Jets.

2) There is a system in place for juice abuse if they get caught during testing. I understand more are users. How many more? I dunno. Neither do you. But the NFL has a system in place to deal with them. This continues the justification for cheating. There is no justification and that has to stop. (and I'll say the same damned thing when a player gets caught with roids in his system. I don't give a damn if EVERY player is doing it in the league. you know the rules, you chose not to follow, you get what you deserve. Period.)
I've bashed baseball players who have done roids. I've bashed cheaters. I'm not inconsistent in my indignation of those types of people.

Some other comments:

St. Cronin: Of course, I hate the Pats. That's what the entire ten point rebuttal was about. In fact, all I did in there was attack the Pats, right? I didn't say they were a good team who didn't need to do it. I didn't give specific reasons why I thought Beli was in the wrong on this. I made irrational statements like saying the game should be forfeited or that the Pats shouldn't be allowed in the playoffs for two years. It was pure, 100%, unadulterated hate. You caught me.

As for the Pats building a league wide DNA, I'm proud of em. Curious though. . . Does this camera operate based off of where the defensive signal caller is standing? So you have to point a camera right at their signal caller and then it shows a wide angle shot of all the other guys on the sideline and their reactions to the play? You can have a note taker tracking players body language, reactions and noting their movements. You don't need the defensive play call to do that.

The commish ruled and now it's over in my book. The Pats will continue winning games. Brady is a great QB (an ALL TIME great QB) and he won't suddenly suck because the camera is off. Beli will continue putting terrific defensive game plans out there, because that's what he does. And the Patriots will think long and hard before they openly defy the commish again. (or any team. If my Broncos cheated the cap again, I'm sure I wouldn't see a first rounder in Denver for three or more years. It just strengthens the belief I held and voice earlier in the thread) We won't know for years the total impact the stealing of signals had, so it isn't really worth worrying about at this point.

One last thing: Go Patriots. (this week) Beat the hell out of the Chargers.

[Deattribution]

Dan Marino said it would be a huge advantage (even bigger in no huddle) because you would have a pretty good idea of what the defense is going to do - then you could adjust your play as necessary - going as far as saying the QB knows because they're told in their headset (ie, they're going to run double zone). Given that he's one of the best QBs ever, I'd have to say he'd know whether or not it would be an advantage.