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View Poll Results: How is Obama doing? (poll started 6/6) | |||
Great - above my expectations | 18 | 6.87% | |
Good - met most of my expectations | 66 | 25.19% | |
Average - so so, disappointed a little | 64 | 24.43% | |
Bad - sold us out | 101 | 38.55% | |
Trout - don't know yet | 13 | 4.96% | |
Voters: 262. You may not vote on this poll |
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08-12-2009, 07:59 PM | #3401 |
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08-12-2009, 07:59 PM | #3402 |
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08-12-2009, 08:07 PM | #3403 |
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08-12-2009, 08:11 PM | #3404 |
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08-12-2009, 08:20 PM | #3405 |
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08-12-2009, 08:32 PM | #3406 |
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08-12-2009, 08:38 PM | #3407 | ||||
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Quote:
Quote:
Next, we will run into a funding issue. It's going to take longer to get paid by the public system (combined with more patient requests) which means some doctors won't initially accept it. So, if your company drops your coverage because it's cheaper to pay the fine (as it would be for my company I work for). Then, there's a chance my doctor won't take the new public plan because they can pick and choose patients due to demand. This will, of course, begin a new legislation process mandating that doctors take a certain number of publicly funded patients (ie, affirmative action for public health plan members). Quote:
However, it will take longer to receive money from the government. Right now, private insurance companies have to atleast attempt to compete from a payment standpoint (and they take forever). Where's the impetus on the federal government to provide prompt payments to hospitals? Combine a lack of initiative with all the regulations/oversight that will be needed and funds may be a long time coming. This becomes a major issue to small, private practices. Quote:
Again, I just don't see a situation where currently employed person with quality coverage benefits from this new bill. And, that's 75+% of US adults right now. At the end of the day, all 75% will suffer in some way for a benefit that no one can really quantify. It's basically like me telling you that if you give me $10, there's a 20% chance I give you $12 back and an 80% chance I give you $6 back. However, the guy who gives me nothing has a 60% chance of getting $4 back. Right now, a lot of us giving up the $10 aren't really excited about entering into this arrangement. Last edited by Arles : 08-12-2009 at 08:42 PM. |
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08-12-2009, 08:38 PM | #3408 |
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08-12-2009, 08:39 PM | #3409 |
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Can we keep the science vs religion argument out of this thread? We've had it in plenty of other places already.
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08-12-2009, 08:41 PM | #3410 |
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Id like to point out that this thread is an example of how the debate on health care, on here and in the town halls, gets mutated into all sorts of other things that have nothing to so with health care or it's bill at all.
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08-12-2009, 08:42 PM | #3411 | |
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Interesting poll from Gallup, where they interviewed 1,000 hairless bipedal monkeys about the healthcare town halls:
Poll: Health care views take sympathetic tilt - USATODAY.com Quote:
I'm actually surprised by this... especially the independents.
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08-12-2009, 08:49 PM | #3412 |
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Im just curious how people can run down other peoples beliefs. This isnt Science vs. Religion. Its called respecting other peoples beliefs.
From reading this thread, we need more of this. This is why the Health Care town meetings get crazy. People lack the respect to listen to each other. We will all disagree on things. Thats human nature. But we shouldnt shout people dow or put people down because they think the politicians are going to kill old people or the Earth was created 6000 years ago. |
08-12-2009, 08:50 PM | #3413 |
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Plus this thread is about Obamas presidency and his Muslim leaning s really bother me.
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08-12-2009, 08:53 PM | #3414 |
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Arles, I'm curious about your last post. Based on the few town hall meetings I've watched, it seems like the only difference between the public insurance and the private insurance is the person paying the premiums. In one case it is the individual, and the other it is the government. Both the publicly a privately insured person will show up in an ER with their BCBS (for example) insurance card. The hospital staff won't know or care who is paying the insurance premiums, they will just send their bills to the insurance company. Am I missing something?
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08-12-2009, 08:54 PM | #3415 | |
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What should we do to the uninformed people who think politicians are going to set up death squads to kill old people. Talk reason to them? In case you haven't been paying attention, these people (many on Medicare) don't really want to listen and are the ones shouting down. I'm not getting into the whole creation vs. big bang thing because I have no proof on either side, so if somebody wants to think the Earth is 6000 years old (as long as they don't teach it as science in schools) that's their belief. But when a belief is patently wrong (and being stoked by doofs like Palin) you can't just sit aside and say that's their opinion. It's an opinion being presented as fact based on incorrect knowledge.
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08-12-2009, 08:57 PM | #3416 |
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08-12-2009, 09:02 PM | #3417 |
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08-12-2009, 09:18 PM | #3418 |
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08-12-2009, 09:22 PM | #3419 |
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A muslie?
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08-12-2009, 09:34 PM | #3420 |
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Did I say he was a Muslim? Or did I say he leaned that way? ah yes, post what others want to hear.
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08-12-2009, 09:36 PM | #3421 | |
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*shaking my head* fail. EPIC MOTHERFUCKING FAIL
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08-12-2009, 09:39 PM | #3422 |
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08-12-2009, 09:47 PM | #3423 |
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Because he doesn't advocate bombing every Islamic country back in to the stone age.
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08-12-2009, 09:50 PM | #3424 |
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I have Rastafarian leanings myself.
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08-12-2009, 10:44 PM | #3425 | |
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Quote:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/108226/re...eationism.aspx |
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08-12-2009, 10:53 PM | #3426 | |
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Am I missing something? The article you linked does not have anything to do with the earth being 6,000 years old or people believing that. |
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08-12-2009, 10:58 PM | #3427 |
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Quoted from an interview with Cathleen Falsani
FALSANI: What do you believe? OBAMA: "I am a Christian. So, I have a deep faith. So I draw from the Christian faith. On the other hand, I was born in Hawaii where obviously there are a lot of Eastern influences. I lived in Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world, between the ages of six and 10. My father was from Kenya, and although he was probably most accurately labeled an agnostic, his father was Muslim. And I'd say, probably, intellectually I've drawn as much from Judaism as any other faith. (A patron stops and says, "Congratulations," shakes his hand. "Thank you very much. I appreciate that. Thank you.") So, I'm rooted in the Christian tradition. I believe that there are many paths to the same place, and that is a belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people. That there are values that transcend race or culture, that move us forward, and there's an obligation for all of us individually as well as collectively to take responsibility to make those values lived. And so, part of my project in life was probably to spend the first 40 years of my life figuring out what I did believe - I'm 42 now - and it's not that I had it all completely worked out, but I'm spending a lot of time now trying to apply what I believe and trying to live up to those values." Again from the interview: "I find it hard to believe that my God would consign four-fifths of the world to hell. I can't imagine that my God would allow some little Hindu kid in India who never interacts with the Christian faith to somehow burn for all eternity. That's just not part of my religious makeup." If you dont give yourself to Jesus Christ, you go to Hell. Christians believe this. Obama believes he is “an instrument of God” and join him in creating “a Kingdom right here on Earth." This quote by Obama should scare all Christians. Obama ignores national day of prayer. The president slights godly expression. No mention of Matthew 6:5-6: "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret." "We know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus – and nonbelievers," Mr. Obama said This is a Judeo-Christian country. Muslims live for divisiveness. Not untiy. "Obama is a true believer in the religion of Environmentalism. Not the science of the environment. Where that science survives, it provides us with a vital service; and it doesn't take any faith to believe in the findings of genuine scientists doing science properly." Allah is the name for the Moon god that Mohammed founded the Muslim religion on. Obama quoted as saying "We are no longer a Christian nation....." Again the divisive rhetoric. I think its pretty clear that Obama is not a Christian and does lean towards the religion of Mulims |
08-12-2009, 10:59 PM | #3428 |
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08-12-2009, 11:02 PM | #3429 |
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08-12-2009, 11:04 PM | #3430 |
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oh man. i might let somebody else have first crack at that...lol
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08-12-2009, 11:04 PM | #3431 |
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One that polls peoples belief in evolution or creationism.
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08-12-2009, 11:07 PM | #3432 |
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And points out that 60% of Republicans believe God created us in our current form within the last 10,000 years.
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08-12-2009, 11:13 PM | #3433 | |
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And here is a link to an article on the same site that polls only 39% of Americans believe in evolution. Does that mean the other 61% are lunatics? http://www.gallup.com/poll/114544/Da...Evolution.aspx Also, the article you linked indicates 38% of Democrats also believe in creationism and that God created humans 10,000 years ago and 39% of Democrats believe in Evolution. An additional 17% of democrats believe humans evolved but that God guided the process. Last edited by Grammaticus : 08-12-2009 at 11:19 PM. |
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08-12-2009, 11:17 PM | #3434 | |
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Quote:
yep
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08-12-2009, 11:23 PM | #3435 |
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Either way, it sounds like most can agree that believing in creationism or God does not imply a person is crazy.
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08-12-2009, 11:25 PM | #3436 | |
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Quote:
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08-12-2009, 11:25 PM | #3437 | |
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Quote:
false
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08-12-2009, 11:28 PM | #3438 |
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08-12-2009, 11:30 PM | #3439 |
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eh, maybe "crazy" isn't the best word. but it's a lot "nicer" than some of the other words i'd use
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08-12-2009, 11:39 PM | #3440 | ||
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I don't see those same negatives you do. It's not like we are killing the private sector so there will still be good money in the medical profession. Supply and demand should dictate that if there is more demand for specialists, we'll see more coming out of school. Last edited by RainMaker : 08-12-2009 at 11:39 PM. |
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08-12-2009, 11:43 PM | #3441 | |
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It would be no different to me than to say that we'll pull police officers out of 15% of the cities and move the to the other 85% so that they could get much better protection. |
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08-12-2009, 11:48 PM | #3442 |
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The funniest part about that evolution survey that people love to cite( because they're trying to lump them with anyone that disagrees with them) is the last question - only 55% even know what the theory of evolution is. So what do the rest of the numbers even matter?
Last edited by molson : 08-12-2009 at 11:49 PM. |
08-12-2009, 11:59 PM | #3443 |
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I've always wondered why this debate was framed as "creation vs evolution". It's pretty easy to believe in creation and still be ok with evolution. Is anyone really railing against Mendel and his punnett squares? Now if you want to go "Creation vs Big Bang"- that gets a bit more interesting because big bang is built on a lot of speculative science with no real good underpinnings.
SI
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08-13-2009, 12:06 AM | #3444 | |
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I didn't mean it to come across as telling 15% to go fuck themselves. What I was trying to get across is the complexity of the issue. Its not as simple as just giving everyone affordable health care and then letting the rest take care of itself. In a country with the resources we have every single person should have an affordable health care option. However, the infrastructure isn't in place for it right now. We also need to the money to pull this off. As I stated above, Medicare is probably the best health care in the country, but it's well over-budget and is probably going to become a financial burden to the country. Where's the money going to come from? Are the 85% of the people with health care right now going to end up paying for the other 15%? Is this going to affect how long you wait for specialty care? Are doctors going to schedule less time to see their patients? I think these are legitimate concerns and it may not sound fair, but I'd rather keep things the way they are until we have a plan that can answer all of these questions (no idea if the current plan does or not) than give the other 15% health care and fuck things up for everyone. |
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08-13-2009, 12:13 AM | #3445 | |
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I think again, it's framed that way by those on the "evolution" side to mock religion and for political points, and to more easily look down upon people that are different than them. I think less-educated people see "creation v. evolution" as "god v. no god", and answer accordingly. When you're absolutely right, the two things are completely compatible, it makes no sense that they're always presented as mutually exclusive. I don't think the people who answer "creationism" to that question really don't "believe" in evolution. Evolution has just been framed as "anti-god" for some reason so they're against it. If you asked them, outside of a god context, whether they "believed" in natural selection, and gave an explanation of what natural selection is, the numbers would be different. There's plenty of other threads here on this so I won't get into it again, but the religion-bashers don't get religion. Religion isn't an attempted scientific explanation for the earth, no matter what blog they read or preacher they quote. Last edited by molson : 08-13-2009 at 12:21 AM. |
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08-13-2009, 02:00 AM | #3446 | ||||
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I think this has been a very good debate (Monkey business aside). To build on an earlier point, many doctors have decided against accepting currently public-based insurance programs. The reasons are long delays in payment, reduced coverage options and too much paperwork/oversight:
Fewer Doctors In Texas Are Accepting Medicare Cases, Texas Health Insurance Quote:
Illinois Senate Republicans - The doctors are in, but not many taking kids Quote:
Doctors Taking Less Medicaid Patients Quote:
Low pay from Medicaid keeps doctors away from primary care Quote:
Currently publicly financed programs like Medicare, Medicaid, All Kids, Commonwealth Care in Mass and nearly every other instance in the US have a much lower scope than a national plan would, but struggle to provide competitive payments to doctors (or payments on time). There's a very good chance a large percentage of primary care physicians would just not accept this new program. So, you have doctor X with your employer paid PPO insurance. This new government plan is enacted and your employer drops coverage (something very attractive to many employers when you look at the cost savings). Then, you go on the government plan. Next, you find that doctor X doesn't accept this plan (for the reasons above) and now you've lost your family doctor. This is a very real fear and one that is getting very little response from the congress/White House. It's all fine to try and change a flawed system. But if that change results in losing your primary doctor, longer waits and less access to other doctors - is it something really worth doing? It seems like people are so invested in changing the health care system that they are embracing any new idea - even if that idea results in more issues than we have now. And, IMO, that is very dangerous. Last edited by Arles : 08-13-2009 at 02:01 AM. |
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08-13-2009, 02:12 AM | #3447 | |
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I think I "get" religion fairly well. If the Christian religion didn't want to get dragged in to this debate, it shouldn't have included Genesis.
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08-13-2009, 02:14 AM | #3448 | |
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Sorry, you clearly don't get religion. Last edited by molson : 08-13-2009 at 02:22 AM. |
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08-13-2009, 06:29 AM | #3449 | |
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Oh I thought you were being sarcastic. This thread just got awesome again.
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08-13-2009, 06:35 AM | #3450 |
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And? You are so willing to believe a man made tool. How do you know those fossils arent 6000 years old? Why do they have to be 6 million years old? You are reading a book that says 6 million years old, other people are reading a book that says 6000 years old. But they are crazy or lunatics? |
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