2009 MLB Regular Season Thread

[JonInMiddleGA]

espn.com reporting that it looks like the Halladay to the Phillies deal may be dying. Blue Jays reportedly wanted Happ, Drabek, and OF prospect Dominic Brown. Phillies wanted to sub Carlos Carrasco for one pitcher (or two other position prospects for one pitcher) preferrably Drabek, Jays don't sound ready to bite.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

espn.com reporting that it looks like the Halladay to the Phillies deal may be dying. Blue Jays reportedly wanted Happ, Drabek, and OF prospect Dominic Brown. Phillies wanted to sub Carlos Carrasco for one pitcher (or two other position prospects for one pitcher) preferrably Drabek, Jays don't sound ready to bite.

What do you do if you're Toronto? You know Halladay won't re-sign so isn't it best to get what you can for him now? Obviously we don't know what other teams are offering for Halladay but I'm betting the Phillies are offering the best package, even without including Drabek.

As an Indians fan, I wonder if things change for Cliff Lee and the Tribe if Halladay stays in Toronto. Teams looking to add a top of the rotation arm now would be down to Lee as their only option (not a bad option but not Halladay) and that could potentially force them to give up more in a bidding war for Lee. At least that's what I hope for.

[DeToxRox]

Really don't get the Phils infatuation with prospects. Halladay is the best pitcher in the MLB and I have no doubt would resign in Philly. Are any of those guys going to top the production he'd give them?

[sovereignstar]

The Jays shouldn't be in any rush to trade him before the deadline. What they can get for him in the offseason couldn't be that much worse. Just don't do what my Twins did and accept a trade that revolves around Carlos Fucking Gomez.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by samifan24

What do you do if you're Toronto? You know Halladay won't re-sign so isn't it best to get what you can for him now? Obviously we don't know what other teams are offering for Halladay but I'm betting the Phillies are offering the best package, even without including Drabek.

Well, at the bare minimum any trade for Halladay has to include value that is perceived to be higher than the 2 draft picks the Jays will get as compensation if Halladay leaves in free agency. Clearly the Jays want more than that given Halladay is one of the best pitchers in the game, but they will get some compensation for him leaving, so any offer has to beat that.

[sovereignstar]

Everyone is aware that Halladay isn't a free agent until after 2010, right?

[DeToxRox]

3 names are creeping up with Detroit:

Josh Willingham, Adam Dunn and Milton Bradley.

I'd prefer Dunn to DH, but Bradley is a + Defender when he wants to be. That said he's a headcase, but if Chicago would absorb a good chunk of salary, or take back Dontrelle or Nate, you have to do it.

[DeToxRox]

Saw this elsewhere, c/p word for word:

according to Dave Cameron who has solid connections:

I’ve been hearing for a few days that the M’s were involved as a third team in a Cliff Lee to Tampa Bay deal. The Indians want more pitching than the Rays want to give up and don’t have a use for Brignac (because we already gave them an awesome LH hitting SS…), so the M’s would get Brignac and send additional pitching to the Rays.

What that looks like is up in the air. I’ve heard Morrow/Clement to Cleveland in a huge deal that also sends Victor Martinez to Tampa. I’ve heard that we’d absorb Kazmir’s contract too in order to make TB be able to fit Lee into their budget. I’ve heard smaller deals where it’s just Morrow.

Guess we’ll see.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

Everyone is aware that Halladay isn't a free agent until after 2010, right?

Good point - any return for the Jays has to beat not just the 2 draft picks they'll get, but also account for the value he'll provide next season in addition to the remainder of this season. It's a big reason why Toronto is exploring trade options now.

[DeToxRox]

FWIW I highly doubt that report but who knows.

[JetsIn06]

Rays just came back from a 9-1 deficit and beat the Jays in the 12th.

Woot!

[k0ruptr]

There might be something wrong with bobby Jenks.

[terpkristin]

Watching the Phillies take on the Cardinals. Two teams I rarely see play, this game seems fairly unbalanced.

/tk

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

There might be something wrong with bobby Jenks.

You're right. A person just can't be that ugly.

[Bad-example]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

You're right. A person just can't be that ugly.

Julian Tavarez can.

[ISiddiqui]

LOL, Lugo is 4 for 5 today with a double and a triple. Apparently wasn't too bad yesterday either.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

LOL, Lugo is 4 for 5 today with a double and a triple. Apparently wasn't too bad yesterday either.

No, he's been quite good in two games. LaRussa will probably sit him tomorrow.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by terpkristin

Watching the Phillies take on the Cardinals. Two teams I rarely see play, this game seems fairly unbalanced.

/tk

Not much in the way of pitching today for Lohse and the boys.. although I believe each team had 14 hits..

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by mckerney

It's depressing to read what the Blue Jays can get for Halladay and then look at what Bill Smith got when he gave away Halladay.

Better offers were there. He turned down a combination of Lester, Lowrie, Masterson and Crisp to go with the Mets platter of borderline prospects, and many people here were saying the Sox players/prospects were worse at the time.

Originally Posted by samifan24

at what point can the fans just enjoy something like a hot streak like this for what it is? Do you think we'll ever reach that point?

Was it Marcus Thames who came out and hit like 12 home runs the first 2 weeks a season or two ago, and then ended up with less than 20 on the season? Hot streaks happen. If he keeps it up the rest of the season, maybe I could see rumors starting, but it's way too small a sample size for that.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Was it Marcus Thames who came out and hit like 12 home runs the first 2 weeks a season or two ago, and then ended up with less than 20 on the season? Hot streaks happen. If he keeps it up the rest of the season, maybe I could see rumors starting, but it's way too small a sample size for that.

Chris Shelton. 9 HR in the first 13 games, then by August he was in AAA.

[stevew]

Sure seems that the D-Backs run into a very high amount of outs

[Atocep]

Jon Heyman reports that the Yankees called to see what it would take to get Halladay and JP told him Joba, Hughes, and 2 more prospects.

From the Angels he wanted Joe Saunders, Sean O'Sullivan, Aybar, and Brandon Wood.

My guess is if the Rays called he'd just ask to swap 40 man rosters.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Atocep

From the Angels he wanted Joe Saunders, Sean O'Sullivan, Aybar, and Brandon Wood.

Yeah, read this, too. Ricciardi's nuts. Not so much about the talent requested but the positions asked for. Yeah, hey, Tony, to get Halladay, we want you to send us one of your clearcut top four SPs, and the top candidate for your fifth SP spot as well. That way, you'll still need a SP from somewhere else after you're done dealing with us. Oh, yeah, and for the position prospects, we want to take BOTH of your young SS's, instead of just one, and looking at another position for the second position prospect.

I can do Saunders and Wood OR Aybar. But if Saunders goes, candidates for the remaining rotation spots have to stay. If Toronto wants Reckling or Bell or Walden for that second pitcher, okay, we'll talk, but the Angels still have to field a five man rotation (dumbass). I'm not even going to talk about how silly the Wood/Aybar thing is (why on Earth would the Jays think the Angels would move both of their SSs in one deal? To give Izturis a chance?).

I am thinking Doc's gonna stay in Toronto after all. If JP keeps asking for deals like this, and the one from Philly which includes both Happ and Drabek, he's not really trying to move Halladay at all.

[MrDNA]

It does seem like Ricciardi wants to pull the wool over team's eyes. Like "Hey Guyzzzz... Roy can pitch every game 4 u, so give me all yer pitchers!"

[Bad-example]

Pretty clear he doesn't want to trade him to an AL team.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I don't blame Ricciardi one bit. If you're going to give up your best by a wide margin then you make sure you get a ton back in return, or else you don't do the deal at this point in the scenario. He can get the same single uber prospect deals down the road.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Chris Shelton. 9 HR in the first 13 games, then by August he was in AAA.

Delgado hit 8 in his first 13 of 2004. Went 1 month and 11 days before hitting his 9th and was sent down.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I don't blame Ricciardi one bit. If you're going to give up your best by a wide margin then you make sure you get a ton back in return, or else you don't do the deal at this point in the scenario. He can get the same single uber prospect deals down the road.

Exactly. The Jays still have him under contract for next year so there's no good reason to settle for less than an ideal package at this point.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Hochevar continues his great run of late and breaks the long Royals losing streak. 7 innings, 13 strikeouts, 5 hits, 2 runs and 0 walks. Really happy to see him finally panning out as the prospect the franchise saw when they selected him.

[samifan24]

Nick Cafardo is reporting that it was the Indians that turned down Clay Bucholz for Victor Martinez, not the other way around as was previously reported. The Sox countered with Masterson, Bowden and an outfield prospect for Martinez and were also turned down.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by samifan24

Nick Cafardo is reporting that it was the Indians that turned down Clay Bucholz for Victor Martinez, not the other way around as was previously reported. The Sox countered with Masterson, Bowden and an outfield prospect for Martinez and were also turned down.

good...i'm glad they were turned down. That's far too much for a 30+ year old catcher who realistically is probably better suited to 1B/DH when those are not the positions you're trying to fill

[Dr. Sak]

Phils are now talking to the Pirates about Zack Duke.

[MizzouRah]

Vent:

How many fcking times do you have to throw Wellemeyer out there to know HE SUCKS!!!!!!!!!???????????

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Vent:

How many fcking times do you have to throw Wellemeyer out there to know HE SUCKS!!!!!!!!!???????????

.340 ave against LH hitting and the Phils put out 7 LH today in the lineup. Ouch.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

good...i'm glad they were turned down. That's far too much for a 30+ year old catcher who realistically is probably better suited to 1B/DH when those are not the positions you're trying to fill

Wow I know V-Mart's defense leaves a lot to be desired but I think most teams would ask for Bucholz and more in a package for a player of Martinez's caliber.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by samifan24

Wow I know V-Mart's defense leaves a lot to be desired but I think most teams would ask for Bucholz and more in a package for a player of Martinez's caliber.

right. but i don't think Martinez is a player that the Sox ought to be chasing after if that's the price. he doesn't necessarily fill a need that they need that much.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by samifan24

Wow I know V-Mart's defense leaves a lot to be desired but I think most teams would ask for Bucholz and more in a package for a player of Martinez's caliber.

Are we talking about the same 30 year old 1B/DH with a career 118 OPS+? He's a good player, and I'd love to have him, but he's not in the upper echelon of hitters. Regardless of who turned down Buchholz for Martinez I'm glad it was turned down.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Are we talking about the same 30 year old 1B/DH with a career 118 OPS+? He's a good player, and I'd love to have him, but he's not in the upper echelon of hitters. Regardless of who turned down Buchholz for Martinez I'm glad it was turned down.

+1

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Are we talking about the same 30 year old 1B/DH with a career 118 OPS+? He's a good player, and I'd love to have him, but he's not in the upper echelon of hitters. Regardless of who turned down Buchholz for Martinez I'm glad it was turned down.

His bat is probably the best available in the market, poor defense or otherwise. He's a massive offensive upgrade over Varitek and would be great in that Sox lineup. Yes 1B/DH is crowded in Boston but that's a luxury to have when you're as talented as the Red Sox.

[samifan24]

dola-

Martinez is a career .297 hitter who averages 20 HR and 102 RBIs each season over an 8 year career. That is very good production from a weak position no matter how bad his defense may be.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I don't blame Ricciardi one bit. If you're going to give up your best by a wide margin then you make sure you get a ton back in return, or else you don't do the deal at this point in the scenario. He can get the same single uber prospect deals down the road.

Agreed.

But if you're seriously trying to craft a deal, you don't make stupid offers that take both of a team's SSs or take too many form one area. Ask for the same talent but spread it around. Ask for a SS and a CF. Or a C and a 3B. Etc. Etc.

My issue with his Angels' proposal had nothing to do with the talent requested but the lack of thought put into the likelihood the Angels would accept a deal that, because of the way it was constituted, would cripple them too much in one or two specific area. It's a deal designed to be turned down, which tells me that Ricciardi isn't interested in dealing Halladay at all. This is all just some farce he's running.

[samifan24]

Is Ricciardi gone at the end of the season regardless of whether or not he deals Halladay?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Agreed.

But if you're seriously trying to craft a deal, you don't make stupid offers that take both of a team's SSs or take too many form one area. Ask for the same talent but spread it around. Ask for a SS and a CF. Or a C and a 3B. Etc. Etc.

My issue with his Angels' proposal had nothing to do with the talent requested but the lack of thought put into the likelihood the Angels would accept a deal that, because of the way it was constituted, would cripple them too much in one or two specific area. It's a deal designed to be turned down, which tells me that Ricciardi isn't interested in dealing Halladay at all. This is all just some farce he's running.

i agree

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Exactly. The Jays still have him under contract for next year so there's no good reason to settle for less than an ideal package at this point.

He's going to get considerably better offers right now than this time next year. A team that trades for him now gets him for a playoff run this year plus all of next year. Next year the only thing the teams really have to do is beat the value of 2 draft picks.

He doesn't have to move him right now, but considering the team is destined for another 4th place finish next year I don't see why you wouldn't take the maximum value you could get from him.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I don't see why you wouldn't take the maximum value you could get from him.

Because you're probably going to run off a big chunk of your fan base this season as well as season ticket sales next year once you deal him.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

My issue with his Angels' proposal had nothing to do with the talent requested but the lack of thought put into the likelihood the Angels would accept a deal that, because of the way it was constituted, would cripple them too much in one or two specific area.

That is, of course, IF what we're hearing about the deal is even accurate.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Because you're probably going to run off a big chunk of your fan base this season as well as season ticket sales next year once you deal him.

They could probably offset those losses by firing JP.


I get that and I completely understand why a team would think that way, but a team taking that approach in the AL East will NEVER finish better than 3rd.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

That is, of course, IF what we're hearing about the deal is even accurate.

Doesn't matter. That is what we're specifically discussing. If you want to introduce other hypotheticals, go for it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Doesn't matter. That is what we're specifically discussing. If you want to introduce other hypotheticals, go for it.

Okay fine.

If that's what you want from somebody then you ask for it. If they don't like it then they don't have to do the deal. The likelihood of whether the Angels would go along has zero bearing on what you want from them in return unless they're both your only potential trade partner and you actually want the deal.

The Angels have nothing resembling any sort of divine right to get a deal that suits them to a T -- which is precisely what you sound like you expect in your post -- and it's downright absurd to suggest otherwise.

edit to add: Given the situation, I find it highly doubtful that the call was placed from Toronto to Anaheim, err Los Angeles, err wherever saying "Hey, we'd love to send you Halladay if you'll just give us X,Y, and Z". Far more likely that the call was placed from the west coast asking what it would take and the Blue Jays answered the question. If the Angels or anyone else doesn't like the answer that's really not Toronto's problem.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Okay fine.

If that's what you want from somebody then you ask for it. If they don't like it then they don't have to do the deal. The likelihood of whether the Angels would go along has zero bearing on what you want from them in return unless they're both your only potential trade partner and you actually want the deal.

And that's why I said Toronto doesn't want to make a deal, and called it a farce.

The Angels have nothing resembling any sort of divine right to get a deal that suits them to a T -- which is precisely what you sound like you expect in your post -- and it's downright absurd to suggest otherwise.

You're as usual reading into it what you want, and not what's being said. I never say the Angels have some divine right to a deal. That's a ridiculous poor misread on your part. I am saying if Toronto wants to do a deal, they should offer one they think has a chance to be accepted. Since they did not, I propose they didn't want to do a deal at all.