Maximum Football???

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Bee

Well, it's not like they'd have to create a new page or something. It's either page A or page B inside the US Frame. I'm guessing it would take about 2 seconds to make the change, but I'm not a website guy so maybe there's more to it. *shrug*

But Erik has already gone on record saying it would take MUCH longer than 5 minutes to make a change.

[JPhillips]

[Franklinnoble]

Wow... I keep thinking this thread is gonna die.. and somehow, it just gets better and better.

I really want to be supportive of indie developers and all... but I'm finding it rather difficult to have much sympathy for Mr. Winters here...

[QuikSand]

Just what this thread has really needed...

[Bee]

Originally Posted by cartman

But Erik has already gone on record saying it would take MUCH longer than 5 minutes to make a change.

Maybe he was basing his estimate on the development cycle of Maximum Football?

[Lorena]

Originally Posted by cartman

Or, they haven't realized that they need to change the EU website as well.

I'm sure once they read it here, they'll change it real quick.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Just what this thread has really needed...

BOOBIES!!!!!!!!!1111@!@@LOL@@@!!!

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by Dodgerchick

I'm sure once they read it here, they'll change it real quick.

Ah, but I've already contacted Erin Brockovich!

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Just what this thread has really needed...

That's quite a pair.

[Antmeister]

Ok, I shared the proof and hopefully. Thanks Bee for pointing it out. I thought I was going to be painted a liar.

[cartman]

From over at the Matrix forums...

Originally Posted by Coach J

David, the World is knocking on the door ....Let them in...

This game is great, Dave you have what it takes. What you have designed is wonderful. Doing most of this alone leads me to one thing.
What if you had help. I bought the game, now I want to contribute. I will buy your game again. We need to get you some help. Please setup a link if at all possible on your site for donations, I really do feel just by opening the door this football community that's been held hostage... Will rise again... We are getting behind you.

Like Zed was behind Marcellus???

[cartman]

Holy crap! There's been a Dolemite sighting at the Matrix Forums.

I REPEAT, THERE'S BEEN A DOLEMITE SIGHTING AT THE MATRIX FORUMS!!!

[cartman]

Wow, I guess I shoulda put a Dola on the previous post...

[Erik Rutins]

Allright. First of all, do you all seriously think that we would:

1. Not know our return policy.
2. Lie about it
3. Screw our customers after spending years working our asses off to build up a good reputation

Seriously? It turns out AntMeister was right about the return policy link and I was wrong, but I never accused him of lying. I logged in to find him accusing us of secretly changing the policy somehow, within five minutes of his first post. My assumption was that he somehow went to the wrong link or the wrong Digital River store, since I followed his link and got our usual policy, not the one he saw.

Anyway, it seems that Digital River has created a major embarrassment for us and we were stupid enough not to catch it earlier. I'm not sure when this glitch crept in, but it looks like some, but not all, of their servers have some kind of default store text that the store template starts with rather than our return policy, which has been "all sales are final" every time I've clicked on it since we put the store up 2 or 3 years about with DR.

There has been no dishonesty, no conspiracy and no attempt to screw anyone. Every link I clicked on from AntMeister said "all sales are final" until I started refreshing multiple times, then it finally showed the glitch. What there has been is a screw-up.

We have always given refunds despite that policy to customers for whom the game didn't work and were within minimum spec. We're not looking to sell anyone a coaster. However, giving refunds because a game is subjectively not what the customer expected has never been a policy for us. We do our best to help get the game running, to support it after release and to make sure it's worth buying before release. I understand some folks are disappointed with M-F as there were issues on release that we did not find or expect to be there. Our policy remains to fix those issues in order to get the product to the expected level, then to further support and improve the product to give our customers value for their money.

We'll be discussing this store server screw-up with the refund policy over the weekend and with Digital River on Monday.

Regards,

- Erik

[st.cronin]

rofl

[bbor]

So he will get a refund?

Cause this is not Ant's fault that DR screwed up.

[MJ4H]

This is turning into an even bigger disaster than I thought it would.

And, make no mistake, I was expecting a very significant disaster.

[Dutch]

1. Not know our return policy.

Obviously you don't seem to know it very well, at best.

2. Lie about it

Combat Leader still on the way! Woot!

3. Screw our customers after spending years working our asses off to build up a good reputation

Fortress Europe.

[cartman]

Hi Erik,

I'm sure that with all of the other games Matrix has been associated with, the refund policy has never been an issue. I am certain of this, because if you go to the "official" Internet Archive, the screens shown by Antmeister have been there all along.

If this was advertised as a football framework, and nothing else, then you might have a leg to stand on. But since this has been hyped as a Canadian, American, and indoor simulation, then it is clear the game has fallen quite short.

Shaun Sullivan has been a shining beacon for how independent developers can ply their trade. Don't let this fiasco take anything away from the incredible work he has done.

[Senator]

Sad.

[Erik Rutins]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Obviously you don't seem to know it very well, at best.

We know it very well, unfortunately we apparently need to check up on the store site more carefully.

Combat Leader still on the way! Woot!

No, in fact we announced that it was not and the unfortunate reasons why. What does this have to do with lying? Every game development project that starts does not finish. We started CL when we were new on the block and started promoting it and discussing it _way_ too early. We learned from that not to announce or promote products until they are much closer to release and more certain to be completed.

Fortress Europe.

Our one and only disaster. One of our very first releases way back in our first year, dropped by the developer as soon as we released it. I freely admit that was a very hard lesson for us to learn, but we learned it and have not repeated it since. We removed that from sale once we realized that the developer simply would not support it, no matter what we did. M-F is not Fortress Europe, not by a longshot.

It's clear that for some reason you have nothing good to say about us, though I have no idea what we've done to you.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

Cartman,

This has nothing to do with Shaun or any of our other developers. This has to do with our screw-up in not checking the store links as thoroughly as we should have and DRs in not setting the policy to what it should have been.

Anyway, any further updates regarding this will be on our forum.

Regards,

- Erik

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Erik Rutins

It's clear that for some reason you have nothing good to say about us, though I have no idea what we've done to you.

Regards,

- Erik

That's bullshit, obviously you haven't read the MatrixGames Forums. Everything that's unlocked is good to say about you.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Erik Rutins

Cartman,

This has nothing to do with Shaun or any of our other developers. This has to do with our screw-up in not checking the store links as thoroughly as we should have and DRs in not setting the policy to what it should have been.

Anyway, any further updates regarding this will be on our forum.

Regards,

- Erik

You can say this doesn't have anything to do with them, but the way you handle dissatisifed customers with one product does reflect on every other developer you handle whether you wish it to or not.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Erik Rutins

Cartman,

This has nothing to do with Shaun or any of our other developers. This has to do with our screw-up in not checking the store links as thoroughly as we should have and DRs in not setting the policy to what it should have been.

Anyway, any further updates regarding this will be on our forum.

Regards,

- Erik

I never stated that this had anything to do with any of your other developers.

I simply stated that this product is probably the first time you've ever had to review what DR has posted for Matrix as a return policy.

As an example, I pointed to Shaun Sullivan as a way that independant developers should conduct themselves. Shaun has continually asked the sim market about the progress of his project, and has asked for and accepted input to the direction his software has taken. In addition, Shaun had an established rep as a modder for the FPS product family.

[Antmeister]

First of all, I am going to give Erik props for even posting on this thread instead of starting a new one.

Second, as you will notice, most of us keep opinions about this whole situation here to show of voice of displeasure from how the developer handled himself before and after release of the product.

But Erik, I think what people are basically saying is that many of us saw a number of problems from just watching videos and viewing screenshots and this somehow got past your beta team.

The whole gist of this thread is how someone could release something that was obviously buggy. EagleFan (or EF on your message board) and a number of others 'tested the waters' based on your company's reputation of releasing good quality games.

You must fully admit that this is not the quality of product you are used to releasing to the public and to not allow a refund is actually wrong. It may work on their computer, but it is no where close to a football simulation. That alone should be grounds to allow for a refund in this case. Just put yourself in the buyer's shoes.

[Thornbird]

Companies gotta protect there investments especially small companies otherwise anyone can just get a refund and still keep the cdkey. They can use licenses like TPF but that type of licensing sucks.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Thornbird

Companies gotta protect there investments especially small companies otherwise anyone can just get a refund and still keep the cdkey. They can use licenses like TPF but that type of licensing sucks.

All due respect, Thornbird, but I don't see anyone that's asking for a refund as being a person that would derive long term satisfaction from this game.

[Franklinnoble]

Wow... just wow... it's like a train wreck that just doesn't stop.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

This is like watching a car wreck. But one where, every so often, someone walks over and punches the driver in the face as he struggles to free himself from the wreckage.

Just wanted to bring back what is possibly my favorite post of all-time.

[cartman]

And to think HA was ready to bury this thread with his inane mustache contest posting a few pages ago.

[spcd]

Originally Posted by cartman

All due respect, Thornbird, but I don't see anyone that's asking for a refund as being a person that would derive long term satisfaction from this game.

A slight understatment I think

MF has passed a threshold for me, where free is too expensive, and it would take being paid significantly more than I earn to play it. Ironically, I'm starting to feel a little sympathy for Winter in a strange way, it's not that disimilar from being a long time Jets fan: you know they suck, are always going to suck and that the Parcells years were just a cock tease to be followed by several years of blue balls, but you just can't help yourself from hoping they stumble arse backwards into good fortune.

Antmeister you should give up your day job and become an investigative reporter.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by spcd

Antmeister you should give up your day job and become an investigative reporter.

I can't take all the credit. This was collaborative. Chris first mentioned that he was able to get a refund based on what he saw on a web page. I just looked it up and posted it. All of the sudden, the details change and Bee found the other link that still retained the info. But thanks for the compliments anyways.

[stevew]

Somehow we need to get a tape of Great Whites sport show. I was thinking of firing off an email to the FIU broadcasting department to see if they had any archived.

[spcd]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

I can't take all the credit. This was collaborative. Chris first mentioned that he was able to get a refund based on what he saw on a web page. I just looked it up and posted it. All of the sudden, the details change and Bee found the other link that still retained the info. But thanks for the compliments anyways.

Interestingly, someone on Matrix posted that it's an EU law to offer refunds. I don't know if that's correct, but the Australian store has the no refunds text and I was sure Aussies had full retail protection for store bought and downloaded software.

[ice4277]

Originally Posted by Erik Rutins

We do our best to help get the game running, to support it after release and to make sure it's worth buying before release.

Clearly they came up with this idea after MF was released.

[MizzouRah]

Why anyone bought this game, especially at $40 a pop is beyond me.

[MIJB#19]

DR? As in Digital River? We need a ROFLMAO smilie...

[albionmoonlight]

If Digital River, acting as agent for Matrix games, promoted a refund policy, and broadcast that to customers who relied on it, then Digital River is bound by that admission. Principals are responsible for the actions of their agents under American law.

And if Matrix games then refuses to offer that refund, most states would allow you to bring an unfair and deceptive trade practices suit (which, among other things, may include attorneys fees and triple damages). Of course, the real money would be in an unfair and deceptive trade practices class action. The details are, as always, where the devil is, but there is certainly enough in the framework that I have seen to interest some ambulance chasers.

American law simply does not allow you to sell products based on fradulent representations--even if you later claim that the fraud was a "mistake" or a "miscommunication."

Erik, if you are still reading, you really should run this by the guys in legal. You may have really opened more of a can of worms than you intended by having your agent represent that you have a refund policy.

[Erik Rutins]

Originally Posted by Dutch

That's bullshit, obviously you haven't read the MatrixGames Forums. Everything that's unlocked is good to say about you.

Honestly, I have no idea who you are. I didn't even realize you were on our forums.

[Erik Rutins]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

You can say this doesn't have anything to do with them, but the way you handle dissatisifed customers with one product does reflect on every other developer you handle whether you wish it to or not.

I agree with that in general. We have always handled customers in accordance with our policies, but taking mitigating circumstances into account. We've bent the rules in many cases to the customer's benefit and we have a good record in taking care of our customers and supporting our games.

The real issue that brought this up is the screw-up between us and the store on the displayed policy vs. the actual policy and that's what we have to deal with. We should have an answer for that on Monday.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

Originally Posted by cartman

I never stated that this had anything to do with any of your other developers.

I simply stated that this product is probably the first time you've ever had to review what DR has posted for Matrix as a return policy.

As an example, I pointed to Shaun Sullivan as a way that independant developers should conduct themselves. Shaun has continually asked the sim market about the progress of his project, and has asked for and accepted input to the direction his software has taken. In addition, Shaun had an established rep as a modder for the FPS product family.

I agree that Shaun is awesome. However, I get disturbed when folks keep bringing other developers into this. Let's keep this to Matrix and M-F.

This is certainly not the first time we've had to review our refund policy and we've consistently had this policy from our first days. However, this is the first time we've gone to the store and found a link (thanks to Antmeister) that says something different from our policy. We need to find out what happened there, when it happened and then decide on how to address it.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Erik, if you are still reading, you really should run this by the guys in legal. You may have really opened more of a can of worms than you intended by having your agent represent that you have a refund policy.

I have to say, this type of escalation just isn't helpful and I think you know that. Once I saw a link that actually displayed the problem, I posted about it and stated we had to discuss internally and with DR how to deal with it. The earliest this can happen is Monday, since the right people at DR won't be available until then, particularly in their European operation.

Those of you who don't have M-F, haven't requested a refund and didn't buy it through the European store, I'd appreciate if you'd chill for a few days and give us a chance to sort this out with our _customers_ in a fair way. Thanks.

Regards,

- Erik

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by Erik Rutins

I agree that Shaun is awesome. However, I get disturbed when folks keep bringing other developers into this. Let's keep this to Matrix and M-F.


- Erik

Why would that be disturbing? It's pretty much common sense to know one product can affect an entire brand.

I personally wouldn't support a game or a company that would release such an unstable product because it shows a lack of intelligence on their part, and a lack of respect for their customers intelligence.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Erik Rutins

Honestly, I have no idea who you are. I didn't even realize you were on our forums.

I was talking out of a general observation that Matrix Games is not interested in opposing or critical views of their products or practices and tends to shut down threads that put Matrix Games or their products in a negative light. Which is understandable, as you are out to make money.

But what you are left with, is a bunch of "Matrix Games is the best game ever threads." Or, to be more clear, the kind of positive points you are looking for.

But for the most part, I like Matrix Games. I generally have no complaints. If I had any, it would be the false advertising of Fortress Europe (lying about how much fun everybody was having at Matrix playing it, prior to release). The teaseware that draws in customers to look for updates on Combat Leader. The overpricing of game titles. And the unwillingness to step back and take a look at Maximum Football. It just seems horrible. I am not buying this game to add weight to it, so forget about asking me that! I'll work off the reviews. That's it. Everything else about Matrix, so far as I can tell, is pretty darned good.

However, back to M-F, with Matrix Games insistance at banning or locking threads that are critical of Maximum Football, I'll get my reviews from here. And the verdict is out....Matrix Games needs a lot of help before it's ready for sale.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Erik Rutins

I have to say, this type of escalation just isn't helpful and I think you know that. Once I saw a link that actually displayed the problem, I posted about it and stated we had to discuss internally and with DR how to deal with it. The earliest this can happen is Monday, since the right people at DR won't be available until then, particularly in their European operation.

Those of you who don't have M-F, haven't requested a refund and didn't buy it through the European store, I'd appreciate if you'd chill for a few days and give us a chance to sort this out with our _customers_ in a fair way. Thanks.

Regards,

- Erik

Erik,

I admire your efforts here, but I think you really misread the intent of albion's post. He wasn't escalating anything, but simply offering sound advice that you may want to consider running whatever business decision you make by your legal department (or outside counsel, if need be).

albion is one of several lawyers on this board (I'm in that group too, for better or worse), and I think if you took a straw poll, he would win hands down in terms of his breadth of legal knowledge and his ability to clearly and succinctly summarize that knowledge when relevant.

I appreciate your concern that there is some rabble rousing going on here. Of course there is. But I think that group is outweighed by the folks who have either bought the game or who have followed it closely with genuine interest. Remember these are potential customers not only of Maximum-Football but of Puresim and other Matrix offerings. So, while this particular issue may relate specifically M-F, on a larger scale it does reflect on Matrix as a whole, it's other games, and unfortunately, the other developers with whom it contracts.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Erik Rutins

I agree that Shaun is awesome. However, I get disturbed when folks keep bringing other developers into this. Let's keep this to Matrix and M-F.

As another post asked, why is it disturbing? Isn't PureSim handled by Matrix? I can see your point if people were referencing Jim, Arlie, Gary, Marc, et al. But that's not the case in this instance. I was pointing out how wildly divergent the perception is of PureSim vs. Maximum-Football.

To us "on the inside" of computer sports sims, we know the history and the backgrounds of how the products developed. However, the vast number of consumers only know of the final product, and nothing about how it was made. I have said all along that I hope the Maximum-Football experience doesn't negatively impact PureSim. But, since they are both under the Matrix banner, Joe Consumer assumes they are developed by the same team.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Erik Rutins

I agree that Shaun is awesome. However, I get disturbed when folks keep bringing other developers into this. Let's keep this to Matrix and M-F.

If you think you can make people separate MF/Matrix from the rest of your products, you haven't thought this through.

If I go to a restaurant for the first time and order the fish and get food poisoning, I don't go back a month later and order the steak in hopes that the fish was the only bad thing, I avoid that restaurant like the plague. Honestly, I hadn't heard of Matrix games before M-F and I pretty much have no desire of ordering any games from them.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Mustang

If you think you can make people separate MF/Matrix from the rest of your products, you haven't thought this through.

If I go to a restaurant for the first time and order the fish and get food poisoning, I don't go back a month later and order the steak in hopes that the fish was the only bad thing, I avoid that restaurant like the plague. Honestly, I hadn't heard of Matrix games before M-F and I pretty much have no desire of ordering any games from them.

dito

There is no business model that I'm aware of which does not reward outstanding customer service. Matrix/M-F's efforts to alienate potential customers are just mind-blowing.

[spcd]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

dito

There is no business model that I'm aware of which does not reward outstanding customer service. Matrix/M-F's efforts to alienate potential customers are just mind-blowing.

Ever waited 15 minutes at a Target or Starbucks

Generally you're right, but some business models are built on volume and an ever expanding customer base, rather than customer loyalty. Not that such a model should apply to Matrix, but software for the majority of publishers is run ignoring customer service completely. They rely on short memories, a disassociation between a current product experience and future products, and a willingness of customers to overlook the most egregious treatment when the feature set of a new game is announced.

Makes you wonder why the PC games market is so unsuccessful...