*World Cup Game Discussion Thread* (SPOILERS)

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Katon

Er, I think you might have the two of them mixed up. Lampard was arguably England's best player at Euro 2004 and during qualifying, he just had a truly horrendous World Cup. Gerrard, on the other hand, has been anonymous for England for years now. Given his club form it's silly to argue that he isn't world class, and just about everyone in the national team has played well below their club level at some point in Sven's reign, but the fact remains he's never really played well for England.

Ok well I didn't follow Euro 2004 all that much - like I said, it was a serious question.

I noted that Gerrard had struggled. I'll blame that on Sven, though.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Critch

Schweinsteiger took the second one well, but not sure how the keeper didn't get a hand to the first one. Must be the new swervie ball or something

It seems like he was surprised that Schweinsteiger would shoot from there.

[thealmighty]

Along the vein of many ideas, this was in the Dallas Morning News this morning.
Fixing soccer's referee woes a difficult goal


11:20 PM CDT on Friday, July 7, 2006



BERLIN – Irony just drips from these symbols of contradiction, almost like someone's idea of a dark joke:
There is Cristiano Ronaldo, a fab young attacker who was a finalist for the newly created (sponsor-driven, of course) award as the World Cup's top youngster.
But he's the very embodiment of everything wrong with a tournament that went all "crime and punishment" on us. Simply put, he's a cheat.
And how about this howler: Referee Jorge Larrionda cautioned American Eddie Pope for a shirt-pulling incident, just as FIFA had instructed refs to do. Fair enough.
But Portugal's Luis Figo literally de-pantsed France's Patrick Vieira in the semifinals. Vieira, his Frenchie shorts hanging a foot lower than proper, glared toward a referee who declined to so much as whistle Figo for a foul.
That referee? Larrionda, for Pete's sake.
It all goes to underline the complexity of this flammable and topical issue, this matter of improving the game through better officiating.
It really is a mess. And it's complicated to fix.
Heck, few can even agree on the most culpable parties. Is it the suits at FIFA? Or the maligned men in the middle? The players who reduce matches to con games orchestrated by carnival hucksters?
Players flee the tournament vilifying refs. One ref left vilifying the players (particularly the "sneaky" Portuguese and the "surprising" Dutch instigators).
The answer is all of the above. The players were warned but apparently in denial about FIFA's drive to eliminate rough play and loutish behavior.
The wildly inconsistent refs turn a blind eye to some of it. One man's yellow card is another man's "play on!"
And what of FIFA, a blustery body that demands consistency – but then indifferently orders another chardonnay when refs are so blatantly inconsistent?
To be fair, if the FIFA dons are deliberate in ordering grand changes, who can blame them?
Why rush to "fix" the game when, outside of some sluggish quarterfinals and one slightly deflated semifinal (Portugal-France), the tournament has been brilliantly organized and replete with human drama and patriotic pageantry? It's the undisputed heavyweight champion of the global sporting events (except in our own country, that is).
There are some very simple steps FIFA president Sepp Blatter, et al. could take. For instance, on the issue of faking injuries as a time-wasting tactic, why not institute a simple addendum to the law: A player leaving the field because of injury may re-enter only on his team's next restart.
Coaches will go bonkers watching their teams defend with 10 men while the "injured" party sips Powerade on the sidelines. Yes, some legitimately injured players will get caught in the net. That's life.
As for the players, FIFA should exploit its access to a willing media. Organize quick player meetings before big matches. Explain – once again – what referees will severely punish. Then brief the media. So if Portugal's Deco is cautioned for childishly walking away with the ball (as he was against the Netherlands), every reporterwould write, "Players were warned in a prematch meeting, and yet Deco foolishly ..."
And please, for the love of George Best, can we step into the space age on the use of video replays? Form a board of solid ex-pros to review allegations of diving. In the face of compelling evidence, issue five-game suspensions. And be consistent. They suspend Germany's Torsten Frings for slapping an Argentine. And yet Figo (there's that name again) is on video head-butting a Dutch player. Punitive measures? Nah.
Germany organizing committee president Franz Beckenbauer is leading a movement to regain control. He wants to organize a summit of players, coaches and referees.
Whaddya say we invite Figo? You know, just for yuks.

[thealmighty]

Originally Posted by daedalus

For what it's worth, if it was only the first post, I'd probably agree with you. On the other hand, the existence and, particularly, the tone of the second post gave me the same impression as Des.

In that case, my apologies to all who thought the same.

[ISiddiqui]

I like the 'if you come off, you can only come on your team's next restart rule'. However, I do think 5 games is a bit too harsh for diving. Sure, it's cheating, but then again every rules infraction is, technically. 2 games, I'd back, which is about what a red card is (rest of the game currently and then the next game).

[DaddyTorgo]

so somehow, being down here in peru and out on the inca trail for the games, i had gotten the idea that the final was portugal vs. germany. relieved now that i get online to find that it´s france vs. italy, and i just may have to find a bar with the game on in pisac tomorrow! FORZA ITALIA!

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by thealmighty

Coaches will go bonkers watching their teams defend with 10 men while the "injured" party sips Powerade on the sidelines. Yes, some legitimately injured players will get caught in the net. That's life.

This is actually something I've thought about a bit. Has there any been any serious thought around this as a possibility? Any particular reasons I (and the article writer) would be missing as to why it wouldn't be reasonable?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Celeval

This is actually something I've thought about a bit. Has there any been any serious thought around this as a possibility? Any particular reasons I (and the article writer) would be missing as to why it wouldn't be reasonable?

Probably because of what he said, about people who were legitimately injured (or cramping up) get caught in the wide net.

[Mac Howard]

The referee decides when an injured player can rejoin the game. You don't need a change of rule. Just instruct the refs to delay until the break or whatever is deemed necessary.

I'm generally in favour of post-match video reviews of diving but I do see one problem. If the review determines that a penalty given and scored was in fact the result of a dive what do they then do? Remove trhe goal? Replay a now drawn cup match? It's one thing for media and fans to lament a penalty from a dive but if the authority offically declares it a dive then the push to change the result may be irresistable and that would leave to a nightmare of possibilities.

It may be better not to pronounce on individual events but to introduce a system of pink cards awarded as a result of video review. Each event accumulates points and at some accumulated level a player is punished with a ban, fine and public shaming. That way persistant divers will be punished (severely if necessary) and the message should get across to players. If they realise that video reviewing is taking place and severe punishment and humilation could result from diving I think it could solve the problem.

[cthomer5000]

No results should change, but guys have to get punished.

[ISiddiqui]

Heh... pink cards .

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

If they realise that video reviewing is taking place and severe punishment and humilation could result from diving I think it could solve the problem.

Severe punishment might be something the players will think about before taking a dive, but humiliation? Does C. Ronaldo care that he is known as a diver? He makes loads of money to dive. I seriously doubt it hurts his ego if someone calls him on it. Of course, as was shown today, his reputation starts to work against him and he won't get those close fouls, but I doubt it will stop him from diving.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

Severe punishment might be something the players will think about before taking a dive, but humiliation? Does C. Ronaldo care that he is known as a diver? He makes loads of money to dive. I seriously doubt it hurts his ego if someone calls him on it. Of course, as was shown today, his reputation starts to work against him and he won't get those close fouls, but I doubt it will stop him from diving.

I think if players are officially shamed for it then it will have an impact. I don't, however, suggest it's the only punishment - a 2 match ban, a $20,000 fine and John Doe is a cheat will have its effect

[ISiddiqui]

Official shaming will also put all the refs on notice that such player likes to dive or embellish things, leading to less calls in the future.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I think the better punishment is that after getting your pink card, in the next game no fouls can be called against players tackling the diver. This would lead to broken ankles for the divers and a great incentive to stop diving.

[Desnudo]

Any thoughts on how C. Ronaldo will be received upon return to the EPL?

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Probably terrible by everyone except United fans, but he's been quoted as saying he wants out of United because of how he's been "treated" by English fans.

[Zone]

Not sure if Sepp Blatter thinks diving is such a bad thing. Here is a quote when asked about all the diving in football.

Diving Blatter
FIFA President Sepp Blatter may want a crackdown on diving, but he has admitted to doing it himself while a player in Switzerland. “I was not a perfect player, being a striker,” he said. “I tried also to get some advantages by falling down and saying that player touched me when he hadn’t.”

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Zone

Not sure if Sepp Blatter thinks diving is such a bad thing. Here is a quote when asked about all the diving in football.

Diving Blatter
FIFA President Sepp Blatter may want a crackdown on diving, but he has admitted to doing it himself while a player in Switzerland. “I was not a perfect player, being a striker,” he said. “I tried also to get some advantages by falling down and saying that player touched me when he hadn’t.”

C'mon, it's Bla-bla-blatter. if he wasn't FIFA President, nobody would take him serious. Just because people do something all the time, that doesn't make it right.

This is the same guy who after Portugal-Netherlands said that the referee should have received a yellow card himself, only to take it back a week later and saying the coaches should have gotten a yellow card. Of course his 'sorry' came after the ref was kicked out of the tournament and after the Portugese decided to claim that vicious tackles are permitted if they are made in the context of anti-anti-fair play (yeah, double negative).

And I'll admit that I'd probably cheat from time to time too had I been a pro soccer player, although probably with a weak defense like: "If the opponent cheats, I cheat back." But we've all seen how good the Dutch are at it.

[sterlingice]

Time to bump this thread again ahead of the game

SI

[ISiddiqui]

Wooot! Should be a fun game .

[sterlingice]

Geez- the pre-game for this is longer than the Super Bowl... ok, not quite

SI

[cthomer5000]

Let's do this baby. Go France!

[Joe]

[GrantDawg]

Henry was knocked out apperantly. That's not good for France.

[cthomer5000]

Really didn't look like he got hit very hard.. this would be a huge blow if they have to sub him out.

[terpkristin]

YIKES.
I hope Henry is ok.
/tk

[vtbub]

that deserved a card

[sterlingice]

Yeah, didn't look like too rough of a hit (on Henry). I dunno...

SI

[kingfc22]

And the Italians have shown up. Bad, hard tackles and a couple of early dives.

Hope they lose 3-0.

[vtbub]

PK!

[kingfc22]

Speaking of dives

[Celeval]

PENALTY!

[kingfc22]

[Celeval]

Oh, wow.

[Celeval]

Nothing like early controversy.

[vtbub]

Hehe, nice. 1-0 FRA

[Celeval]

Definately a goal on the replay. Wow, that was close.

[terpkristin]

LES BLEUS!

and wow, good call by the AR.

/tk

[kingfc22]

How did that linesman on the far side not signal it was a goal?!

If you watch the replay the guy started to race back into position as if the goal was not scored.

[ISiddiqui]

Shame... the first goal scored off of a dive... though I guess the Italians have done enough of that in this tourney...

[terpkristin]

Ok the refs need to start delaying the whistle to see if advantage applies, I'm already appalled by the officiating.

/tk

[bulletsponge]

Flop! how fitting for this tourney.

[sterlingice]

Man, it's like France is trying to out-dive Italy...

SI

[MikeVic]

I don't know, looked like the Italian player kicked that France guy on the thigh...

[jbmagic]

Cheap goal by France.

Damn Penalty kick

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Looks to me like his heels were clipped. It may have been unintentional, but it did knock him down on a scoring chance. Gotta call it a PK.

[Galaxy]

Eh, not sure if it was a "dive".

[kingfc22]

I love reading the hattrick conferences. Nothing like readiing Portuguese fans calling out France for being divers and denying that they do it. LOL

[terpkristin]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

Cheap goal by France.

Damn Penalty kick

Oh yeah because Italy didn't have any cheap goals in their road to the final

Everybody here needs to remember, the LOTG say, IF IN THE OPINION OF THE REFEREE...

Refs are human. They make mistakes, they call it like they see it at the time. It's part of the BEAUTY of soccer. The only thing I fault them for so far in this game is the lack of advantage being applied. They're way too agressive with the whistle.

/tk