The Obama Presidency - 2008 & 2012

[molson]

What does the majority Obama-supporters post here other than "talking points"?

It just seems to me that that majority will vilify anyone who disagrees.

[Flasch186]

opinion not masquerading as news or statistics or prognostication.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

opinion not masquerading as news or statistics or prognostication.

Is that just the label for "anything against the majority"? Or is it possible for anyone here to post "opinion not masquerading as news or statistics or prognostication" that you disagree with?

It seems that when a non-majority opinion is expressed here, often the validity of the opinion is attacked.

[Flasch186]

no, disagreeing with me can be both an opinion or news [unlikely](generally not both as opinion is usually not news and vice versa) and is not only common opinion, but usually warranted . Now if someone who is newsworthy disagrees with me than that is very much newsworthy but very very unlikely to happen since Im also not newsworthy and not even on their radar.

'anything against the majority' is just ridiculous since me and MBBF and many others are sometimes in the majority on things side-by-side (take Iran for example) so that would simply be a convenient way of saying, "Since we're in the minority on this particular topic, we can just simply make shit up to prove our point [see Palin's most recent comment for a newsworthy example]." However, even in the Iran thread he found himself spinning news or veiling his opinion when his audience didnt need it.

Go back and read, starting with MBBF's post about meetings closing down and tell me what you think that was supposed to accomplish. To me, IMO, that is a veiled attempt to spin his opinion as newsworthy when instead Chief Rum, only a few posts later posts the balance brilliantly and than MBBF moves on to rinse and repeat. What are your thoughts on that trend of his?

[duckman]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Anymore talking points today MBBF, or do they get put out a little slower on the weekend?

.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

opinion not masquerading as news or statistics or prognostication.

This message was brought to you by Captain Hyperbole.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Is that just the label for "anything against the majority"? Or is it possible for anyone here to post "opinion not masquerading as news or statistics or prognostication" that you disagree with?

It seems that when a non-majority opinion is expressed here, often the validity of the opinion is attacked.

No, it's a label for "just post a link to hotair.com instead of regurgitating everything they say". Lets create the MBBF template.

Well this is a real bad week for the Democrats. *insert link to article being linked to on every conservative blog*

Do you believe this news? Democrats are having a rough go at it right now. *insert link to other article being linked to on every conservative blog*

Originality is what I want. It's why I like Jon's posts. He's not outraged because some blog told him to be.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Originality is what I want. It's why I like Jon's posts. He's not outraged because some blog told him to be.

Just think, if OwlGore had never invented the interwebz, compliments like that probably would almost never happen

[Flasch186]

I LOVE Jon's posts eventhough I totally disagree with 99% of them and think he scares me sometimes.

[RainMaker]

Looks like Democrats are getting close to giving up power. They've resorted to bully tactics against the innocent protesters voicing their First Amendment rights. I think we can all safely assume Obama made a call to them beforehand and told them to do what needed to be done. It appears that everyone is against Obama.

Protesters Demand Apology For Fracas At Town Hall Meeting - KTVI

Tough week for the Democrats I tell you. Palin and company have figured out their plan for secret death camps for the weak. Not really sure how the Democrats planned to get this passed without people noticing. The country has spoken and decided they no longer want the Democrats in power.

Palin Paints Picture of 'Obama Death Panel' Giving Thumbs Down to Trig - Political Punch

Astroturf, strawman, Acorn, SEIU, ObamaCare, socialism, grey poupon, elitist, and daily lunch time press conference.

amidoinitrite?

[duckman]

A nicely written article about the recent town hall meeting protests:

Town hall protests on health care are American, too | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press

[miked]

I agree, it's well within their rights to protest and they should do it if they feel so. They should do it respectfully, not shout out the speaker trying to defend his vote and act like the Family Guy Texas donkey

Seriously, if these mouth-breathers actually had any ideas, we'd be rich. It's just sad when one side is running the show and all the other side can do is shout no and resort to mostly stupidity.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miked

They should do it respectfully, not shout out the speaker trying to defend his vote and act like the Family Guy Texas donkey

There's very little to respect about these vermin, and there is no defense for their support of such bullshit. They're typically saying nothing worth hearing and if some hearty souls find a way to silence them then more power to them afaic.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

There's very little to respect about these vermin, and there is no defense for their support of such bullshit. They're typically saying nothing worth hearing and if some hearty souls find a way to silence them then more power to them afaic.

and yet if they were (R)'s up there talking and (D)'s shouting them down you'd be arguing for the police to be called in to forcibly remove them and saying things about how it wouldn't be the worst thing if there were some broken bones right?

Or am I not correct in thinking that would be (more or less, generally speaking) your response?

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

and yet if they were (R)'s up there talking and (D)'s shouting them down you'd be arguing for the police to be called in to forcibly remove them and saying things about how it wouldn't be the worst thing if there were some broken bones right?

Or am I not correct in thinking that would be (more or less, generally speaking) your response?

wrong, he'd be for the (R) to come from behind the podium and fight the (D).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

and yet if they were (R)'s up there talking and (D)'s shouting them down you'd be arguing for the police to be called in to forcibly remove them and saying things about how it wouldn't be the worst thing if there were some broken bones right? Or am I not correct in thinking that would be (more or less, generally speaking) your response?

I reckon that's close enough for (pardon the pun) government work. Unless of course it were the R's up there spouting utter foolishness, in which case flip it.

It's about the content, not the parenthetical tag.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Robert Reich attacks Obama's negotiations with pharmaceutical companies. I'm wondering why anyone is surprised with this kind of stuff. He promised during the campaign to negotiate with pharm companies. Just because he didn't mention that he'd negotiate to garner the pharm's support for the bill, they're now upset about it? Welcome to Washington, where concessions mean more money for everyone.

How the White House’s Deal With Big Pharma Undermines Democracy

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I reckon that's close enough for (pardon the pun) government work. Unless of course it were the R's up there spouting utter foolishness, in which case flip it.

It's about the content, not the parenthetical tag.

fair enough - just doing a little "consistency check."

we can disagree on how much it's utter-foolishness I suppose.

i happen to think more than anything that it's a shame that the Republicans (largely, although not entirely) are doing this, because it's one of the first examples in a long time of Washington politicians trying to keep their districts informed and engaged in the process. Sure would be nice if it happened more often, but if it turns into a clusterfuck then I'm not optomistic that it will.

And let me clarify before I get attacked: I'm not saying that people with legitimate questions and concerns about the proposal shouldn't engage in the process and should just turn it into a rubber-stamping. I'm saying that the normal civil rules of discourse ought to apply. It shouldn't be viewed as an opportunity to shout down one's representative and harrangue them, it should be viewed as an opportunity to question them and respectfully voice agreement/disagreement.

FWIW that'd be a lot more effective too. As is, Congressmen are free to dismiss those who are opposed as "loonies" by virtue of the way they are conducting themselves, and thus not take their views into account, where if those who were opposed were civil and courteous then their opposition might stand a better chance of actually accomplishing something.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by duckman

A nicely written article about the recent town hall meeting protests:

Town hall protests on health care are American, too | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press

Mitch is a very good writer. Did a great job there of summarizing the situation.

[Flasch186]

See we can agree on some stuff MBBF.

You still failed to admit that violence could be the reason to shut down some town halls and instead keep the insinuation out there that the politicians involved are simply pussies, in your effort to keep spinning yesterday's info.

well done dreidel.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i happen to think more than anything that it's a shame that the Republicans (largely, although not entirely) are doing this, because it's one of the first examples in a long time of Washington politicians trying to keep their districts informed and engaged in the process. Sure would be nice if it happened more often, but if it turns into a clusterfuck then I'm not optomistic that it will.

I'll definitely agree that the politicians should be more engaged with the voters. But I'll disagree with your point in two regards.

1. This is a sell. This is not an open dialogue where that representative will be swayed in any way.

2. When voters choose a representative, they choose that person based on who they think will make the best decisions for the voters in their district/state. The representative's job is not to go back and take a straw poll for every issue. Their job is to vote in the best interest of their voters while listening to their opinions. The Democrats knew exactly where they stood in regards to voter support of this bill long before they held their town meetings. They aren't going back to find out what their district/state thinks. They're going back to sell the bill that currently has underwheming support.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by article

The only problem I have is when people won't let others speak or come only to disrupt. That's not right. That's not democracy.

But I would rather live in a place where people questioned what their government proposed rather than swallowing it blindly -- especially a government whose members guard our tax money while taking bribes, shout morality and then get caught with their pants down, or lecture businessmen about private planes and then order a bunch for themselves.

It may not be pretty, but shouting and confrontations are part of this country. They have been from the start. More manners would be better. But silence would be worse.

well said

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I'll definitely agree that the politicians should be more engaged with the voters. But I'll disagree with your point in two regards.

1. This is a sell. This is not an open dialogue where that representative will be swayed in any way.

2. When voters choose a representative, they choose that person based on who they think will make the best decisions for the voters in their district/state. The representative's job is not to go back and take a straw poll for every issue. Their job is to vote in the best interest of their voters while listening to their opinions. The Democrats knew exactly where they stood in regards to voter support of this bill long before they held their town meetings. They aren't going back to find out what their district/state thinks. They're going back to sell the bill that currently has underwheming support.

valid points both. but that doesn't mean that the normal rules of civilized interaction don't apply and it should just turn into a case where you don't even give the politician a chance to make the sell. You voice disapproval before and after, not during.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

valid points both. but that doesn't mean that the normal rules of civilized interaction don't apply and it should just turn into a case where you don't even give the politician a chance to make the sell. You voice disapproval before and after, not during.

I don't disagree with that. I think we have seen that toned down in some more recent demonstrations. There's always going to be occasional idiots, but over the past few days, I've seen them shouted down as well by someone usually saying 'Let them speak!'. I've also noticed people saying that on both sides of the argument, which is a good thing.

[DaddyTorgo]

*nods*

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

There's very little to respect about these vermin, and there is no defense for their support of such bullshit. They're typically saying nothing worth hearing and if some hearty souls find a way to silence them then more power to them afaic.

Funny, that's exactly how I feel about these "protesters".

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Funny, that's exactly how I feel about these "protesters".

Difference being, I don't get any sense that anyone is ready to do anything drastic about them. On the other hand, I think we're getting closer & closer to seeing someone drag a congresscommie out in the street, ropes & torches in hand.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Difference being, I don't get any sense that anyone is ready to do anything drastic about them.

That's because they're better off ignored. They have nothing substantive to add to the debate and most of them are doing it for the attention they're getting, as well as an opportunity to vent some ill-informed anger that's been stoked by their considerably more cynical leaders.

On the other hand, I think we're getting closer & closer to seeing someone drag a congresscommie out in the street, ropes & torches in hand.

Nah, because then they'd miss out going 4-wheelin with Skeeter and Tommy on the weekend.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Nah, because then they'd miss out going 4-wheelin with Skeeter and Tommy on the weekend.

Stereotyping is for self-proclaimed intellectuals too! Yay!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Nah, because then they'd miss out going 4-wheelin with Skeeter and Tommy on the weekend.

Out of idle curiosity, how much time do you think I've spent - sum total of all my 42+ years - on a fucking 4-wheeler?

You stereotype the people that are reaching that anger level at your own peril, because frankly once the trash in DC is taken out, local neighborhoods seem likely to be the next place where people start tidying up.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Out of idle curiosity, how much time do you think I've spent - sum total of all my 42+ years - on a fucking 4-wheeler?

You stereotype the people that are reaching that anger level at your own peril, because frankly once the trash in DC is taken out, local neighborhoods seem likely to be the next place where people start tidying up.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Meant just what I said DT, at the current pace, I believe it's more likelier than not to happen not only in my lifetime but quite possibly before I get anywhere near having grandchildren.

I know this much, the number of people I know personally with a four-wheeler is less than a dozen, the number that I actually see or talk to more than once every couple of years is well below a half-dozen. The number of people I know that are business owners who are quite intrigued at the prospect of having the class warfare just go ahead & get out in the open and be settled one way or another is a significantly larger number. Some of them are likely to be lousy shots ... a good portion of them aren't.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Jon,

You have an entirely way too high opinion of people's ability to get truly pissed off. The idea that there's this great silent majority (or even decent minority) truly angry about Obama's health care plan is a joke. Shockingly, when a congressman's town hall schedule is shown on FOX News every hour, a whole bunch more people show up than the usual advertisement - his House website.

On the other hand, the threat of violence by right-wingers is always a clear and present danger. Ask George Tiller about that.

I strongly disagree. I think there are more people who don't want what is being presented than do want it. I have not heard one person that I know in favor of it and yes that group includes democrats who voted for Obama.

My general feeling is that people are not as upset over the idea of healthcare as they are the insane growth of the government debt, red-tape, etc. that has been added in just eight months. People have had enough spending.

[rowech]

What I would love to see at this point is a complete six year turnover of Congress. Every American citizen votes against the incumbents presented to them. Period. We will lose some fine members of Congress who do their job but it would also send the message to the people involved that the People are still in control and if these guys don't get rid of their cranial-rectum-inversions, we'll make sure to get rid of them.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

These deficit numbers are downright frightening. And we wonder why people think it's OK to run up debt on their credit cards in this country. Monkey see, monkey do........

TheHill.com - Deficit grew by $181 billion in July

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

You have an entirely way too high opinion of people's ability to get truly pissed off. The idea that there's this great silent majority (or even decent minority) truly angry about Obama's health care plan is a joke. Shockingly, when a congressman's town hall schedule is shown on FOX News every hour, a whole bunch more people show up than the usual advertisement - his House website.

And you seem to have misjudged how many of the angriest ones are bothering to go anywhere those meeting right now. Not a single person I can think of who I would put into that category would be likely to bother attending at this point.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Stereotyping is for self-proclaimed intellectuals too! Yay!

You bet your sweet ass it is!

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Out of idle curiosity, how much time do you think I've spent - sum total of all my 42+ years - on a fucking 4-wheeler?

Oh lighten up, Francis. You can dish it out ("tie up all the liberals and put them at the bottom of the sea") but you can't take it. Pussy.

You stereotype the people that are reaching that anger level at your own peril, because frankly once the trash in DC is taken out, local neighborhoods seem likely to be the next place where people start tidying up.

Maybe if I lived in Hyde Park or Evanston (or, say, Athens), I'd be worried, but I live in a pretty middle-of-the-road suburb. The revolution would have to be pretty far advanced for them to start burning down my suburb. I'll check with my next door neighbor, though, a libertarian gun aficionado with whom we're on good terms (even though he knows our politics) and see if he's planning to burn down the neighborhood (or our hedge).

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I know this much, the number of people I know personally with a four-wheeler is less than a dozen, the number that I actually see or talk to more than once every couple of years is well below a half-dozen. The number of people I know that are business owners who are quite intrigued at the prospect of having the class warfare just go ahead & get out in the open and be settled one way or another is a significantly larger number. Some of them are likely to be lousy shots ... a good portion of them aren't.

Ah stereotypes. It seems I know more four-wheeler owners, personally, than you do. Also plenty of gun owners, including a sister-in-law who bags her deer quota (and my brother's) within 4 hours of the season's start every year, and then skins and butchers it herself (with the aid of a winch, I think).

Anyway, I doubt a serious armed revolt is going to happen in our lifetimes, Jon. That's not to say there won't be (and already are) parts of the country in which people with certain viewpoints (or ethnic/racial backgrounds) would be wise not to visit or live, but that's different.

[lungs]

It'd be a real shame if we'd have to send another General Sherman through Georgia but I'd get a good kick out of it.

This time let them go after we've burned the whole state to the ground, though.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Oh lighten up, Francis. You can dish it out ("tie up all the liberals and put them at the bottom of the sea") but you can't take it. Pussy.

Difference being that I'm not kidding in the slightest. You, on the other hand, strike me as empty talk big hiding behind a keyboard. Make that same crack to me standing in front of me and get away without a hospital trip and I'll make a donation to Obama's campaign.

Maybe if I lived in Hyde Park or Evanston (or, say, Athens), I'd be worried, but I live in a pretty middle-of-the-road suburb.

Ain't nobody on the internet that can't be found. I know logic is a reach for most libs but consider this: why would people attack those with similar points of view in their own neighborhood? They aren't going to be working strictly locally, it wouldn't make any sense.

That's not to say there won't be (and already are) parts of the country in which people with certain viewpoints (or ethnic/racial backgrounds) would be wise not to visit or live, but that's different.

Yep. And anywhere within arm's reach of me is one you might want to consider very carefully.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by lungs

It'd be a real shame if we'd have to send another General Sherman through Georgia but I'd get a good kick out of it.

This time let them go after we've burned the whole state to the ground, though.

From your mouth to God's ear, better to die fighting for something worthwhile than live through another century+ of occupation.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

why would people attack those with similar points of view in their own neighborhood?

It seems like most riots these days are folks burning down the businesses in their own neighborhoods, which of course does wonders for encouraging further economic investment...

[lungs]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

From your mouth to God's ear, better to die fighting for something worthwhile than live through another century+ of occupation.

Hey, I'm all for ending the occupation of the south. But I'd just as well level the whole damn lot before I'd let you go.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

From your mouth to God's ear, better to die fighting for something worthwhile than live through another century+ of occupation.

occupation?? occupation??

ohhhh...now I get it. you're one of "those."

funny, because i think there's very few people up here in the north who feel that there's anything down there in the south worth dying to try to keep at this point.

Frankly without the Christian Conservative & Religious Right movements (which have large swaths of support in the Deep South) I think we'd be better off as a country. Although I'd miss some of the fiscal responsibility brought by the old Republican party, the new GOP isn't really carrying that banner anymore.

Fact, I'll propose a deal...we'll take all the African Americans (since lord knows if we leave them with you it'll be Jim Crow all over again), and you can have all of our midwestern/northern fiscal conservatives (although we'll see how many don't emigrate when your social platforms become clear), and we'll call it even.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Difference being that I'm not kidding in the slightest. You, on the other hand, strike me as empty talk big hiding behind a keyboard. Make that same crack to me standing in front of me and get away without a hospital trip and I'll make a donation to Obama's campaign.

First of all, Reading Comprehension 101. You placed yourself in a group that's so mad "they" don't even bother to demonstrate at the town hall meetings. I was addressing the teabaggers specifically and the idea that they'd actually do something more overt than disrupting some town hall meetings. But if you want to lump yourself in with the attention-seeking teabaggers then fine, I'm addressing you.

Secondly, I type nothing on the internet I wouldn't (and haven't if given the opportunity) said in real life. In the interest of full disclosure I should say I've said nothing of this type to actual teabaggers because I haven't met any teabaggers nor gone to any town halls, and I probably won't because I view the whole exercise (town halls, in this specific instance) a waste of time.

So yes, if I actually met you in real life and we engaged in this type of conversation and your response was to take a swing at me, then there you go. I should note that I've spoken my piece to people with differing, and strongly held, views in the past, and I've not yet had to go to the hospital as a result (or sent anyone to the hospital).

Thirdly, what is it with you and 4-wheelers?

Ain't nobody on the internet that can't be found. I know logic is a reach for most libs but consider this: why would people attack those with similar points of view in their own neighborhood? They aren't going to be working strictly locally, it wouldn't make any sense.

Reading comprehension fail again. I'm not saying my next door libertarian gun aficionado neighbor is going to shoot me. I'm saying that when the teabagger mob from, say, Wheaton, shows up in my suburb they'll be going through him as much as through me, but in all likelihood they'll have been to Hyde Park and Evanston (to say nothing of Glencoe, Kenilworth, Highland Park, etc...) first.

Yep. And anywhere within arm's reach of me is one you might want to consider very carefully.

You say this, but do you mean it? I'm sure there are tons of liberal hippies in Athens you could goad into a quick hospital trip. Have you ever done it?

As for me, perhaps the most recent event I can recall was the guy in a parking lot who accused me of being unpatriotic or un-American while my brother was serving in Iraq. He backed down pretty quick when I turned around and advanced on him. All talk, just like the teabaggers.

[molson]

Hey, if we do the civil war again, Idaho would be in the "north", right?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

Hey, if we do the civil war again, Idaho would be in the "north", right?

Yep!

Split it down the Mason-Dixon line as far as I'm concerned...you can throw KY and MO in with whoever they want...and fuck...I'll be generous and throw in everything east of Colorado.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

occupation?? occupation??

ohhhh...now I get it. you're one of "those."

You didn't know that? Didn't "The War of Northern Aggression" usage over the years provide some hint?

funny, because i think there's very few people up here in the north who feel that there's anything down there in the south worth dying to try to keep at this point.

You don't want it anyway, a lot of us still think it's worth dying over, seems like we're well on our way to an agreement already.

Fact, I'll propose a deal...we'll take all the African Americans (since lord knows if we leave them with you it'll be Jim Crow all over again), and you can have all of our midwestern/northern fiscal conservatives (although we'll see how many don't emigrate when your social platforms become clear), and we'll call it even.

Look, I know it's risky to look a gift horse in the mouth but at the risk of doing just that, could we work on something that gives you our whole little batch of self-hating liberals? You'll love 'em, a goodly number of them were yours originally anyway so at least you gotta take them back. We'll throw in duty-free shopping at Hartsfield Airport or something, maybe provide your own waiting area with express security for U.S. passport holders who are changing planes. Heck, we could even throw in Miami if we have to.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Actualy, looking at actual polling, this is from Pew Research.

Pew Research Center for the People & the Press survey. June 18-21, 2009. Adults nationwide.
"If you were making up the budget for the federal government this year, would you increase spending for [see below], decrease spending for [see below], or keep spending the same for this?"


In addition, the GSS which is the gold standard of social surveys that polls 5,000+ people annually (meaning there's a much lower error percentage) shows that most people think we should actually be spending more. When you paint it as "big government versus small government," small government wins because of thirty years of programming against the words 'big government.' But, when people are asked do you want more/less spending on health care, education, urban renewal, etc., etc., large percentages are for it everytime.

Now, if you said, people don't want to _pay_ for more spending, then sadly, I would have to agree with you. For the last thirty year plus years, people have been sold of goods on both side you can have a lot of services with low taxes. For the ultimate in this, see California.

The fact that 67% of the people polled support more federal funding for education shows how out of touch people are with reality. (And I am a teacher)

Plus your poll (wonder where you get all your talking points, you joined a month ago and post only in this thread) shows that people support increasing spending everywhere. Ask those same people where the money is going to come from. Not them, tax the rich!

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You didn't know that? Didn't "The War of Northern Aggression" usage over the years provide some hint?



You don't want it anyway, a lot of us still think it's worth dying over, seems like we're well on our way to an agreement already.



Look, I know it's risky to look a gift horse in the mouth but at the risk of doing just that, could we work on something that gives you our whole little batch of self-hating liberals? You'll love 'em, a goodly number of them were yours originally anyway so at least you gotta take them back. We'll throw in duty-free shopping at Hartsfield Airport or something, maybe provide your own waiting area with express security for U.S. passport holders who are changing planes. Heck, we could even throw in Miami if we have to.

Sounds good. We'll take all that, and the enclave of Miami/South Beach/whatever down there that is too liberal for you also. In exchange we'll give you...hmmm...the concrete to finish building the wall across your new Mexican border at cost?