Maximum Football???

[Greyroofoo]

I think there has been more posts on Maximum Football than there has been on Front Office Football in this forum.

[MitchG]

Since I don't post much in here I know you all don't know who I am or know much about me. As a matter of fact, I had to reregister to post on here it has been so long since I actually posted. I've been an FOF/TCY gamer since the original FOF came out the same year I kept pounding my head against the wal with FB'99. I say all of this to say I should have listen to you all in regards to this MAXFootball game. I made the mistake last week of purchasing this game and have had nothing but trouble ever since I did. Here's my latest posts on the "support" boards:

Login	Message << Older Topic Newer Topic >>

KO Returns included in Rushing Yards??? - 3/12/2006 3:01:18 AM MitchG Matrix Trooper Posts: 26 Joined: 12/18/2005 Status: online I have 2 questions that are puzzling me: 1) Why are kickoff returns included in rushing stats? I was playing a game today with American rules and ran the opening kickoff back for a TD. When I got the ball back, the stat box popped up and said I had 70 yards rushing. I had not run a play from scrimmage yet. On the team stats page, it said I had 1 att. for 70 yards rushing. 2) Why are some players African-American from the waist up and white from the waist down? This occurs when using mod uniforms. Post #: 1

RE: KO Returns included in Rushing Yards??? - 3/12/2006 3:55:01 AM Breeze Matrix Veteran Posts: 136 Joined: 12/3/2005 Status: offline quote: ORIGINAL: MitchG I have 2 questions that are puzzling me: 1) Why are kickoff returns included in rushing stats? I was playing a game today with American rules and ran the opening kickoff back for a TD. When I got the ball back, the stat box popped up and said I had 70 yards rushing. I had not run a play from scrimmage yet. On the team stats page, it said I had 1 att. for 70 yards rushing. It's a known issue, not sure when they'll fix that though. quote: 2) Why are some players African-American from the waist up and white from the waist down? This occurs when using mod uniforms. That's your answer. In professional leagues, players wear their socks up to their pants, so no skin is showing on their legs. On those modded college uniforms, some skin is there to simulate the fact that some college players wear their socks lower. But since there's no actual skin texture there, the uniform is colored with a generic "white" flesh tone. There is a way to set the skin color of your players, but I haven't fooled around with any of that stuff yet. I say, tell the players to pull up their socks anyway! (in reply to MitchG) Report | Post #: 2

Login	Message << Older Topic Newer Topic >>

PDS Issues and Questions - 3/12/2006 7:29:57 PM MitchG Matrix Trooper Posts: 26 Joined: 12/18/2005 Status: online 1) How do I create a Dime Defense formation? I have found a Nickel defense, but can't seem to sub any players to create a Dime. The question really should be, how do I sub positions inside the PDS? 2) Why are players lined up out of position in a game compared to where I originally place them on the PDS play creation It seems that everyone is always a couple of yards out of position. This is very disruptive when trying to create plays. This occurs on both offense and defense in all positions. 3) Will there be a way to have slow motion replays in the PDS to see what is "really" happening on the field? 4) Can I change the camera angle during practice to see the entire field? 5) Will there be a way to practice a defensive play in 2D mode on the play creation screen like there is for the offensive plays? That would be a time saver. 6) Are LBs and DBs with READ logic suppose to just stand still or are they suppose to drop back into pass coverage if the play is a pass? My hope is that they are to "read" and act on the play. However, it seems as if they just stand still which causes deep passes to work a high percentage of the time.

I guess I find it interesting that for a 3D "strategy" football game that a known issue of stat errors doesn't have an ETA. I also find it strange that a game that boasts of such great flexibility has so many nagging restrictions in the play editor. The bi-rational player issue is actually kind of funny when watching a game, but it gets annoying when you can't tell which guy is which when the play starts.

I actually thought the game would be more stable than it is when I bought it, but I was proven wrong. I am still an avid FBpro player and was hoping this game would fill a void for me. However, it has done nothing but make me appreciate how great the FBPRO series really was almost a decade ago.

[Antmeister]

MitchG,

Ouch! That's a tough way to lose some money. What's sad is that many of the problems could be seen in released screnshots and videos. Yet I must admit that when he went to Matrix, I thought many of these things were going to be ironed out.

What amazes me even more is that the other people that reports errors every other day continue to believe that the game is still good. I don't know if its because they are hardcore fanboys or if it is because they are trying to justify why they spent so much on this game.

If I were you, I would seriously ask for a refund. It is seriously lacking in features for a standard football game.

[DaddyTorgo]

MitchG, Go ahead, ask for a refund. I would be curious to see what the response from Matrix to a paying customer asking for a refund would be. Continue escalating it past Erik and call them if you have to...raise hell and let them know you feel that you as a paying customer were deceived as to the feature-set of the game and are not pleased with the game. it would be interesting to see their response. *of course I mean that you should do this first and foremost to recoup your money, not as a means of bitching at Matrix for problems with the game/to express displeasure with it. but it would be interesting to see what their response would be*

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by MitchG

I say all of this to say I should have listen to you all in regards to this MAXFootball game.

Well, I think having read this tread automatically disqualifies you from getting a refund. I mean, how could anyone not know what they were getting haveing read this thread? From the sounds of it, you got a lot more game than expected - no teleporting players, no electric football player movement - you lucked out!

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

MitchG, Go ahead, ask for a refund.

Under the premise the software didn't do what was advertised, anyone ever tried to do a charge back on their credit card for software purchases? Just curious if that would fly...

[Anthony]

just wanted to get the last post in.

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

just wanted to get the last post in.

ok

[Butter]

Welcome to the new threadkiller thread.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Welcome to the new threadkiller thread.

And the next transformation begins...

[albionmoonlight]

You guys turn this into a threadkiller and I imagine that SkyDog won't be so quick to undelete this thing once Bubba deletes it. Let's all work to avoid threadkiller, OK.

Of course, if you have something to say about football games or limericks or the meaning of the word hubris, then feel free to post. But no threadkiller posts. Please? Pretty Please?

(Except I would like it if one person posted after me just so that no one thinks that I am trying to do some meta-threadkiller here).

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

You guys turn this into a threadkiller and I imagine that SkyDog won't be so quick to undelete this thing once Bubba deletes it. Let's all work to avoid threadkiller, OK.

Of course, if you have something to say about football games or limericks or the meaning of the word hubris, then feel free to post. But no threadkiller posts. Please? Pretty Please?

(Except I would like it if one person posted after me just so that no one thinks that I am trying to do some meta-threadkiller here).

No problemo.

[cartman]

So, here's what the developer see as the stuff he needs to work on:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1086477

Originally Posted by Daivid

Hi.

Below is the short list for items I'm currently working on addressing. These changes/fixes should start making their appearance in BETA form toward the end of this week. These are listed roughly in order of they'll be addressed.

- Stats.
The various statistical and standings bugs many have reported. For example the season standings not showing after week 3 or 4 as well as the league stats (historical) not displaying. Among others.

- Crashes/Lockups.
One person has mentioned that they're getting a Run Time Error (RTE) when trying to load a play into the PDS for editing. I'm looking at it but it doesn't seem to be that wide spread or I think there would be a lot more reports.

I'm trying to narrow down the problem with punts (or other kicks) going into the endzone when played in arcade mode and the game locking up. So far I've been unable to reproduce this.

If any other major crashes show up in the support forums that I've not already addressed they'll be looked at in a priority order.

- Penalties.
There are still some odd penalty results happening.

- Clock.
A few knock on bugs were introduced for the Canadian rule set when making changes for the US style of play. I'm trying to develop a system where clock rules (and a few others) are connected to the field you select. This will be an interm measure until I can create a full fledged clock rule option system for users to select from.

- General Game Play.
I'm also trying to improve things in the actual game play. Such areas of interest are QB scrambling and open field running. These sorts of improvements I'm sure will be a never ending process but just so you're aware we're always looking at them.

And finally.
Some users are already starting to modify values in the databases. Either through already developed utilities or through applications like Excel. While this is very exciting, it also makes debugging support requests very difficult if you have modified values in the databases. Please be sure you are using the stock databases (or the game created league databases) before reporting bugs. Changing values in the databases can cause crashes (or at the very least odd happenings) in seamingly totally unrelated areas of the game.

David Winter
Developer.

I see a lot of "I'll look into" and "I haven't been able to reproduce that error" comments in there. Also, note how he referrs to "Canadian rules" and "American style of play". Then, he is complaining about people customizing the game, and therefore making it very difficult to troubleshoot problems. Wasn't that one of the main features of the game, for 3rd party utilities to be able to customize the gameplay?

[JPhillips]

So does this mean the patch has gone gold?

[Bee]

Changing values in the databases can cause crashes (or at the very least odd happenings) in seamingly totally unrelated areas of the game.

That's great for a game that's reportedly designed to be modified...

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by cartman

Wasn't that one of the main features of the game, for 3rd party utilities to be able to customize the gameplay?

He didn't think anyone would actually try to customize the game...

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Bee

That's great for a game that's reportedly designed to be modified...

That's customizability to you sir.

[FrogMan]

Originally Posted by Mustang

He didn't think anyone would actually buy the game...

fixed that for ya

FM

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

So does this mean the patch has gone gold?

I am not sure it was a patch. It fixed some errors and introduced new ones. So what do you call it? A regressive patch? An enhancement bug?

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Clueless Jackass

- Clock.
A few knock on bugs were introduced for the Canadian rule set when making changes for the US style of play. I'm trying to develop a system where clock rules (and a few others) are connected to the field you select. This will be an interm measure until I can create a full fledged clock rule option system for users to select from.


And finally.
Some users are already starting to modify values in the databases. Either through already developed utilities or through applications like Excel. While this is very exciting, it also makes debugging support requests very difficult if you have modified values in the databases. Please be sure you are using the stock databases (or the game created league databases) before reporting bugs. Changing values in the databases can cause crashes (or at the very least odd happenings) in seamingly totally unrelated areas of the game.
David Winter
Developer.

Jesus Fucking Christ, will you please learn to spell or use a fucking spell-checker you sloppy unprofessional sack of shit?!?!?

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Jesus Fucking Christ, will you please learn to spell or use a fucking spell-checker you sloppy unprofessional sack of shit?!?!?

Originally Posted by VikBulletProofMaterial

How about we knock off the personal shots? How about we get this thread back on topic? Consider this a warning to one and all.......insults, personal shots, etc; are against the Matrix Forum Policy and repeated violations will just get you an exit from this site.

Glad this is the FOFC

[cartman]

Dola this sentence:

Consider this a warning to one and all.......insults, personal shots, etc; are against the Matrix Forum Policy and repeated violations will just get you an exit from this site.

Would have had my 3rd grade English teacher, Sister Mary Mark, absolutely livid. Just try and diagram that thing.

[Antmeister]

Even more proof that Jason 'Great White' exists. Check out page 59 of this pdf.

http://www.tech-notes.tv/2004/2004_comments.pdf

There's mention of FIU and his radio broadcast. This was made in 2004. I have to hear his radio show. I am sure it is pure unintentional comedy.

[bbor]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Jesus Fucking Christ, will you please learn to spell or use a fucking spell-checker you sloppy unprofessional sack of shit?!?!?

Tell us how you really feel.

[spcd]

Originally Posted by cartman

Always a sign of rock solid design, and superior programming.....when changing variables can crash the application

To be fair, I was suprised that they got a patch out this quickly, and Winter does appear to be commited to improving the game. That's much more than I imagined given the time constraints he has to fixing it. Matrix publishes a fair few part-time games which have taken far longer to get patches out.

However, patch .90w28297328232/11/11/12234__A or whichever version is out today, seems to be a continuation of the development "process" where several builds a day are sent out fixing something, breaking something else and creating future unforseen issues, all in an environment where every tester is seeing something different depending on their framerate. Matrix do appear to be boldly forging ahead with a new development technique, where consistency and reproduction are for wimps, maybe they'll eventually write a book.

I am beginning to resent it all though, as COTA is the next game on deck, and I've been waiting for it for 2 years. If Erik et al continue to be consumed with MF, then it may never see the light of day.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

Even more proof that Jason 'Great White' exists. Check out page 59 of this pdf.

http://www.tech-notes.tv/2004/2004_comments.pdf

There's mention of FIU and his radio broadcast. This was made in 2004. I have to hear his radio show. I am sure it is pure unintentional comedy.

Sir, I must say, your detective skills are top notch. But his letter in the pdf seems strangely... uhh... coherent?

[Greyroofoo]

I can't believe anyone would spend $40 on this game when you're gonna have to spend an extra $40 on alcohol to forget that you bought this game.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

I can't believe anyone would spend $40 on this game when you're gonna have to spend an extra $40 on alcohol to forget that you bought this game.

Uhh... it's a good excuse to buy and consume $40 worth of alcohol?

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Uhh... it's a good excuse to buy and consume $40 worth of alcohol?

Fuck, save the game and buy some decent alcohol since you'd have $80. Guaranteed to have a better time, too.

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Fuck, save the game and buy some decent alcohol since you'd have $80. Guaranteed to have a better time, too.

$80 is what, 120 cases of 22oz Thunderbirds?

[cartman]

The UIC just keeps on coming with this product:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1088314

I'd do the cool cut and paste of the thread like others here have done, but I haven't figured it out yet.

The gist of it is that someone is reporting that sometimes on kicks, if the ball isn't caught, the ball is never downed. The two teams kind of run in place, and the only way to resolve it is to shutdown the game. A responder wrote that this has already been reported, and he had seen the same thing. Daivid then writes that he tried 25 consecutive kicks, and it worked perfectly each time. He then states that If he is going to address the issue, then he'll just have to start making blind changes to the code, which he warns may cause unexpected impacts to other parts of the game.

That seems to be a recurring theme in these bug tracking sessions. He says he is unable to replicate many of these errors, and he warns that code changes to fix one thing can cause unintended impacts in other spots.

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Fuck, save the game and buy some decent alcohol since you'd have $80. Guaranteed to have a better time, too.

my thoughts exactly

[SunDevil]

Originally Posted by cartman

The UIC just keeps on coming with this product:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1088314

I'd do the cool cut and paste of the thread like others here have done, but I haven't figured it out yet.

The gist of it is that someone is reporting that sometimes on kicks, if the ball isn't caught, the ball is never downed. The two teams kind of run in place, and the only way to resolve it is to shutdown the game. A responder wrote that this has already been reported, and he had seen the same thing. Daivid then writes that he tried 25 consecutive kicks, and it worked perfectly each time. If he is going to address the issue, then he'll just have to start making blind changes to the code, which he warns may cause unexpected impacts to other parts of the game.

That seems to be a recurring theme in these bug tracking sessions. He says he is unable to replicate many of these errors, and he warns that code changes to fix one thing can cause unintended impacts in other spots.

Nevemind, just went off for about 2 pages on how this guy is an absolute joke of a software developer with the comments he has thus made. But it is just not worth it....

[Darkiller]

I a demo of MAXIMUM FOOTBALL now available ?

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Darkiller

I a demo of MAXIMUM FOOTBALL now available ?

No I believe they are still trying to sucker people into buying it sight unseen.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by cartman

The UIC just keeps on coming with this product:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1088314

I'd do the cool cut and paste of the thread like others here have done, but I haven't figured it out yet.

The gist of it is that someone is reporting that sometimes on kicks, if the ball isn't caught, the ball is never downed. The two teams kind of run in place, and the only way to resolve it is to shutdown the game. A responder wrote that this has already been reported, and he had seen the same thing. Daivid then writes that he tried 25 consecutive kicks, and it worked perfectly each time. He then states that If he is going to address the issue, then he'll just have to start making blind changes to the code, which he warns may cause unexpected impacts to other parts of the game.

That seems to be a recurring theme in these bug tracking sessions. He says he is unable to replicate many of these errors, and he warns that code changes to fix one thing can cause unintended impacts in other spots.

The best part is Winter wants to go over the dudes house to inspect the error. Says he might have to do an "on site".

[QuikSand]

You don't let people try out the snake oil first, gang.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by cartman

That seems to be a recurring theme in these bug tracking sessions. He says he is unable to replicate many of these errors, and he warns that code changes to fix one thing can cause unintended impacts in other spots.

And he is 100% accurate about unintended impacts. If he can't replicate, it will be very difficult for him to fix. That doesn't mean he can't examine the code to see what would cause this, but he is correct that he'd just be guessing if it were fixed or not.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

And he is 100% accurate about unintended impacts. If he can't replicate, it will be very difficult for him to fix. That doesn't mean he can't examine the code to see what would cause this, but he is correct that he'd just be guessing if it were fixed or not.

I understand the point about unintendend impacts. It just points out to me the lack of any kind of regression testing or QA processes. I know for our software, after a developer makes a change, a QA guy will run the new code through a set of tests with a known outcome, to reduce the chance of unintended impacts being introduced. This is long before the software ever hits a customer's hands.

And I can understand the difficulty if you aren't able to reproduce an error. I can see it happening, but from the looks of it over at the support forum, a full 1/3 of the errors he can't seem to be able to reproduce.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by cartman

I understand the point about unintendend impacts. It just points out to me the lack of any kind of regression testing or QA processes. I know for our software, after a developer makes a change, a QA guy will run the new code through a set of tests with a known outcome, to reduce the chance of unintended impacts being introduced. This is long before the software ever hits a customer's hands.

And I can understand the difficulty if you aren't able to reproduce an error. I can see it happening, but from the looks of it over at the support forum, a full 1/3 of the errors he can't seem to be able to reproduce.

Yeah, I think what I'm more baffled by is the lack of some sort of de-bugging system being developed (set up certain down, yardage, score, time, etc situations - that kind of thing) than his comment about unintended consequences.. I mean hell, even when he can replicate and find the exact problem there's a certain chance (as with any code) of unintended consequences.

[hoosierdude]

What would fix the problems is for Matrix to bring in new testers, more of an open beta.. Take apps for various PC setups, and then get about 10 more people in there to test the builds, as the team they have now seems to be a bit small...

Open beta might kill sales for while, but it would definitely shorten the time of getting a playable product.. on the shelves and d/l areas.. I can't believe that they shipped the game with a list of bugs and problems for a gold product. That still stuns me.

Did anyone take the response from Erik Rutins about the guy wanting a refund as ignoring the request for the refund because he is too busy trying to fix the game? Is it just me or???

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by cartman

I understand the point about unintendend impacts. It just points out to me the lack of any kind of regression testing or QA processes. I know for our software, after a developer makes a change, a QA guy will run the new code through a set of tests with a known outcome, to reduce the chance of unintended impacts being introduced. This is long before the software ever hits a customer's hands.

And I can understand the difficulty if you aren't able to reproduce an error. I can see it happening, but from the looks of it over at the support forum, a full 1/3 of the errors he can't seem to be able to reproduce.

The difference is that in a real-time simulation application like this, your results are fundamentally non-deterministic. Even if you save off random number seeds, fix frame times, etc, that still just tests a small set of your runtime conditions. You WANT the game to be different every time it's run, which means you simply can't test even a reasonable fraction of your actual runtime conditions.

So no matter how much testing you do, bugs will still slip through. Even the 1-million-and-first customer will run into some condition that the first million never did. And tweaking one thing here can have ripple effects way over there. This is VERY different from the business programming I used to do (or the utility programming I do on the side).

That said, he still needs to examine his code to determine what conditions would prevent ANYONE from picking up a ball lying on the ground.

[bbor]

oooooh....he tested it a WHOLE 25 times.Big f'n deal......Test it some more until you CAN recreate the damn error...sorry if YOUR consumers are taking up too much of your precious time with stoopid little bugs like NO TEAM DOWNS THE DAMN BALL ON A KICK OFF!

On the other hand...this is kinda of a brilliant stratagy.

Ford:Our tires blow up for no reason?
Consumer:Yes...and 12 people have died so far.
Ford:Well....we tested it 25 times and could'nt recreate the blow up.So,unless you want us to just change our tires for no reason and perhaps make them worse..........


BRILLIANT!

[FrogMan]

Originally Posted by bbor

oooooh....he tested it a WHOLE 25 times.Big f'n deal......Test it some more until you CAN recreate the damn error...sorry if YOUR consumers are taking up too much of your precious time with stoopid little bugs like NO TEAM DOWNS THE DAMN BALL ON A KICK OFF!

On the other hand...this is kinda of a brilliant stratagy.

Ford:Our tires blow up for no reason?
Consumer:Yes...and 12 people have died so far.
Ford:Well....we tested it 25 times and could'nt recreate the blow up.So,unless you want us to just change our tires for no reason and perhaps make them worse..........


BRILLIANT!

woah bbor, calm down or else he'll come do an on-site at your place...

FM

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by FrogMan

woah bbor, calm down or else he'll come do an on-site at your place...

FM

Don't let him in!

[cartman]

Originally Posted by FrogMan

woah bbor, calm down or else he'll come do an on-site at your place...

FM

Even though Daivid is in BC and bbor is in Toronto, I think Yonge Street connects them...

[bbor]

Originally Posted by cartman

Even though Daivid is in BC and bbor is in Toronto, I think Yonge Street connects them...

LOL

I am very ashamed to say this guy is Canadian.....He is very UN-Canadian like in his attitude.Most Canadians would put their nose to the grindstone and get this thing hammered out.Whearas Daivd just wants to blame everyone else for his shit product.

Perhaps his real job is as a mamber of parliment.

[FrogMan]

Originally Posted by bbor

LOL

I am very ashamed to say this guy is Canadian.....He is very UN-Canadian like in his attitude.Most Canadians would put their nose to the grindstone and get this thing hammered out.Whearas Daivd just wants to blame everyone else for his shit product.

or blame americans for not playing football the right way (in his mind )

FM

[bbor]

Originally Posted by FrogMan

or blame americans for not playing football the right way (in his mind )

FM

Is there a right way in his mind?

Or should i say is he in his right mind?

[FrogMan]

Originally Posted by bbor

Is there a right way in his mind?

Or should i say is he in his right mind?

from what I get about the man, the right way is the canadian way... or the highway

FM