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View Poll Results: How is Obama doing? (poll started 6/6) | |||
Great - above my expectations | 18 | 6.87% | |
Good - met most of my expectations | 66 | 25.19% | |
Average - so so, disappointed a little | 64 | 24.43% | |
Bad - sold us out | 101 | 38.55% | |
Trout - don't know yet | 13 | 4.96% | |
Voters: 262. You may not vote on this poll |
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Thread Tools |
08-04-2009, 10:50 AM | #2951 | |
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Quote:
Obama "Joker" Poster Causing a Stir in L.A. - KTLA Pretty easy to find.
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08-04-2009, 10:56 AM | #2952 |
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I wish people had more respect for the office of the president, on both sides. Call 'em liars, crappy presidents, but I could do without the nazi/superhero villain stuff. It's like a crappy middle-eastern county's political protest.
Last edited by molson : 08-04-2009 at 10:56 AM. |
08-04-2009, 10:58 AM | #2953 |
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Obama "Joker" Poster Causing a Stir in L.A. - KTLA - link to the Hutchinson story.
My point in posting that poll was (as I said) to point out that there are fringies on the left and the right, and that these are really non stories (both the "birther and "bush knew"). I have as much interest in debating the percentage of Democrats that believed Bush had prior knowledge of the 911 attacks as I do in debating the percentage of Republicans who think Obama's not really a US citizen. I just don't think either are really important. With that, I'm off to take the kids to G-Force. *Shudder* I think I'd rather debate politics than watch superhero hamsters.
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08-04-2009, 10:59 AM | #2954 | |
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Here's Nate Silver's take. He's pretty good with numbers.
Quote:
Silver doesn't even bother to discuss the difference in the questions asked between the two polls, or the context in which they were set. On the first, there's a definite expansion of the numbers one can expect when you ask if someone thinks the CIA had some advance knowledge of the 9/11 attacks, especially when the CIA wrote a briefing report specifically on this topic for the President's review. A certain number of people are going to answer "Yes" to that question but believe nothing more than the CIA felt it was likely attacks were going to be attempted by Al Qaeda on the U.S. mainland, in the near future. Hardly a "fringe" belief because, in fact, that's exactly what the CIA reported to the President. On the second, the context of Bush's approval rating in 2007 needs to be addressed. How much would an overwhelming public dislike for Bush color participants' responses to a poll which essentially asks them to determine the likelihood that he was anything from an incompetent (ignoring intelligence about the attacks) to a villain (knowing specifically about the attacks that would happen)? I'd expect it would be at least a small but statistically significant number. Oh, I've run out of time again. Back after the next commercial.... |
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08-04-2009, 11:00 AM | #2955 |
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It's really hard to get any kind of read on which side's fringe is more mainstream/substantial. I think we really rely on our own experience. I was pretty much warped from my years at a very liberal law school, in a very liberal city, where many students and professors liked to hint at 9/11 conspiracies and Bush's grand plans for global domination, and they often predicted he would try to hold the office past the end of his term. A few of them actually became anti-gun control because they felt people needed to prepare for Bush's coming monarchy. It was absolutely insane. These were really educated people. I'm sure this was an over-the-top experience, but to me, the left fringe has always been scarier than the right fringe, because they're not hillbillies in a motor home somewhere, they're all over the legal profession and academic elite. It definitely made me more conservative because it just seemed every liberal argument needed to completely exagerate and distort reality to make a point. I think that's a product of being out of power, as you see a similar thing from some conservatives now, yelling about socalism and the country collapsing.
The Republicans definitely didn't do a very good job of highlighting that element as substantial within the Democratic party. Last edited by molson : 08-04-2009 at 11:09 AM. |
08-04-2009, 11:04 AM | #2956 | |
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Well, well.... Quote:
The claims themselves aren't really important because they're obviously false to any rational-thinking person. If, however, prominent GOP politicians continue to be made to look foolish by their dalliance with the Birther movement, it could (emphasis could) have a detrimental effect on the GOP's electoral success, especially outside of the South. That's probably the limit of the importance here, to be honest. |
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08-04-2009, 11:09 AM | #2957 | |
Coordinator
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Quote:
Sounds like you were caught up in an ivory tower liberal echo chamber. Yes, we have them too. There is, however, plenty of good rational liberal/progressive thought elsewhere, much of it linked in this thread. My father told me once that his skepticism of liberal academics grew substantially when he saw how, in the 60s, guys like Chomsky would rile up the students about something or other and then retire to the Faculty Lounge while the kids got beaten up by the police. |
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08-04-2009, 11:16 AM | #2958 | |
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Quote:
Where were you in 2004? Seriously, though, aside from the ritual burnings of Michael Moore every two years or so, I'd suspect that the overuse of the "liberal media elite" anonymous bogeyman resulted in a situation where it doesn't carry a lot of weight anymore. Especially when it competes with a veritable parade of bona fide "fringies" (to use Cam's word) out of the right. Last edited by flere-imsaho : 08-04-2009 at 11:17 AM. |
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08-04-2009, 11:19 AM | #2959 | |
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Quote:
The "liberal media elite" is different, that's an attempt to paint liberals as out of touch with regular people. (I think that worked to some extent, and Hollywood's support of Gore certainly didn't help him, and probably cost him votes) The actual fringe wasn't really highlighted. Last edited by molson : 08-04-2009 at 11:37 AM. |
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08-04-2009, 11:40 AM | #2960 | |
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Quote:
Yeah, that's a +1.
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08-04-2009, 12:09 PM | #2961 |
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/falls over dead
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08-04-2009, 12:10 PM | #2962 |
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08-04-2009, 12:13 PM | #2963 | |
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Quote:
The nut cases on the right have radio and TV contracts? (yes, the fringe of the left has Air America, which I GUESS could be called a radio network. )
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08-04-2009, 12:29 PM | #2964 |
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No reason to, when you're right you're right. There were definitely elements within the security community that had a surprisingly good read on what would eventually become known as 9/11. Thing is, even as someone who supported some of those theories before 9/11 ever happened, it's hard not to admit that there's the benefit of hindsight in assessing that analysis. It's somewhat of a damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of business & for every notion that isn't given enough credence that does happen there's probably a hundred others that are totally off base & are rightfully not given priority. But it is hella frustrating (and costly) when someone gets it right but wasn't listened to at the time.
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08-04-2009, 12:38 PM | #2965 |
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It seems silly to argue about what fringe is more numerous as if that somehow suggests the birther movement isn't worth talking about. Yes, there are loonies on both sides. But currently there is a birther bill in Congress, co-sponsored by several Republicans. It is a current topic. There is not a "Bush knew about 9/11" bill or a "Dick Cheney is Satan" bill.
If we couldn't discuss any topic if the other party had done the same thing in the past, then there would be no topics to discuss and there would be no need to post anything in any political thread.
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08-04-2009, 12:51 PM | #2966 | |
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Quote:
So you think it's silly to argue about, but then you make an argument. I'm very surprised there wasn't something like the "birther bill" in place already. When you file your statement of candidacy, it seems reasonable to have to provide a showing that you're constitutionally elligible. |
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08-04-2009, 01:02 PM | #2967 | |
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Quote:
Are you being purposefully dense just so you can make a stupid statement? I mean, that's like jbmagic logic you're using there. I think we should discuss the original topic. I think it's silly to say that we shouldn't talk about it just because someone else did it however many years ago. Maybe I'll break it down easier... Original topic? Not silly. Claiming the topic is worthless because someone else does the same thing? Silly.
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08-04-2009, 01:05 PM | #2968 | |
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Quote:
It's just interesting that your rules about not comparing parties doesn't appear to apply to you. You say that birthers are worth talking about, because there's more of them than truthers, whom by implication then, are not worth talking about. Seems like the same kind of thing you're yelling about me doing "90% of the time". Last edited by molson : 08-04-2009 at 01:09 PM. |
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08-04-2009, 01:08 PM | #2969 |
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08-04-2009, 01:09 PM | #2970 | |
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Quote:
How did I compare parties? I said it is a current topic, thus it is worthy of discussion. If there are truther bills, or any leftwing fringe bills being submitted, then fine, let's talk about them. I mean, the similar logic you guys are using is saying we can't talk about Sanford because Clinton also cheated on his wife.
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08-04-2009, 01:11 PM | #2971 |
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08-04-2009, 01:11 PM | #2972 | |
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Quote:
When did I say this?
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08-04-2009, 01:13 PM | #2973 | |
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Quote:
For the millionth time, according to top lawyers, a handjob that results in a ruined dress is not cheating. |
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08-04-2009, 01:13 PM | #2974 | |
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Quote:
When did I say I didn't have a problem with truthers? You have a quote or were you just assuming?
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08-04-2009, 01:16 PM | #2975 |
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"It seems silly to argue about what fringe is more numerous as if that somehow suggests the birther movement isn't worth talking about. Yes, there are loonies on both sides. But currently there is a birther bill in Congress, co-sponsored by several Republicans. It is a current topic. There is not a "Bush knew about 9/11" bill or a "Dick Cheney is Satan" bill." Unless I misunderstand (which is very possible), that says that birthers are worthy of talking about because there's more right fringe than left fringe. That's been a pretty common theme in this thread. Or in other words, you think it's silly to argue that the left fringe is more numerous and thus the right fringe isn't worth talking about, but it's perfectly acceptable to argue that the right fringe is more numerous and is thus worth talking about. Last edited by molson : 08-04-2009 at 01:16 PM. |
08-04-2009, 01:18 PM | #2976 | |
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Quote:
That's directed to comparison with other parties in general, not to anything you said. If I say, "X party did that too", I'm not saying it's pointless to talk about, I'm looking to see if the poster will condem that too, or try to distinguish it. Usually, they try to distinguish it, which tells me that the opinion is pretty much just partisian blather. Like if a Republican complains about Democratic Congress spending. If a democrat responds, "Bush wasn't exactly Mr. Fiscal responsibility", the response to that is telling. If the republican tries to distinguish Bush as being somehow better, then they're just making a partisian argument. If they, "Bush sucked too", then they have a little more credibility (IMO) Or if someone goes hard after Clinton and Roberts on infedelity but downplays McCain. Last edited by molson : 08-04-2009 at 01:23 PM. |
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08-04-2009, 01:26 PM | #2977 | ||
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Quote:
Nope, I'm saying it because the birthers are a current topic, for reasons I explained above. The truthers are not. Just like Sanford was a current topic, not Clinton. I mean, that was pretty clear in my statement. There a bill for X, not a bill for Y. How you translated that into "There is more X than Y' is beyond me. Quote:
I never said the right fringe is more numerous. I don't know or CARE which fringe is more numerous. A current topic is a current topic. The birther stuff is current. It's in the news, there's a bill, Congressmen have commented on it.
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08-04-2009, 01:28 PM | #2978 |
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LOL........the last few pages of this thread get a monumental FAIL. This is borderline awful.
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08-04-2009, 01:35 PM | #2979 | |
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Quote:
It's silly to say this argument is awful since there have been arguments before in these threads that have been awful.
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08-04-2009, 01:38 PM | #2980 | |
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Quote:
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08-04-2009, 01:38 PM | #2981 |
"Dutch"
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08-04-2009, 01:39 PM | #2982 | |
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Quote:
The original discussion wasn't too bad, but I think people are arguing about what they're arguing about at this point. The last couple of pages need a padded cell. |
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08-04-2009, 01:43 PM | #2983 |
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So now on in political threads, maybe I should just start every post with a disclaimer saying the truthers are morons. Will that suffice? Or maybe I should rotate the left wingers I bash? I've got lots of others - PETA, NARAL, Sharpton/Jackson, etc.
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08-04-2009, 02:06 PM | #2984 | |
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Quote:
+1 Me? I'm in favor of exploring every avenue available to minimize or in a perfect world eliminate completely the damage that can be done by our fencepost turtle in chief. Exploring his legal qualifications for the job are one avenue, it'd be foolish not to explore it. It's probably a long shot, hell it is a long shot and it's an even longer shot IMO that no matter what was found that his minions wouldn't come up with a way to excuse the discrepancy & try to retroactively legitimize him anyway.
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08-04-2009, 02:18 PM | #2985 | |
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Quote:
At least something different for a change of pace SI
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Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!" Last edited by sterlingice : 08-04-2009 at 02:19 PM. |
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08-04-2009, 02:27 PM | #2986 |
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As a sidenote, how long before we see a photoshopped version of the Clinton-Kim Jong Il photo where Kim has a white stain on his green jumpsuit?
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08-04-2009, 03:30 PM | #2987 | |
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The only thing dangerous is that people don't know what that word really means. Last edited by RainMaker : 08-04-2009 at 03:30 PM. |
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08-04-2009, 09:03 PM | #2988 |
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This recess is quickly becoming a disaster for Democrats. The protests at the town halls are being broadcast in the MSM and it is really hurting the Democrats from a PR perspective. As one analyst notes in this article, the Democrats would make a dangerous mistake by trying to demonize the vocal citizens at the town halls. Obama failed to mobilize his internet army to provide supporters at these gatherings and the Democrats are paying for it.
Democrats' break looking like a bad trip - Alex Isenstadt and Abby Phillip - POLITICO.com |
08-04-2009, 09:04 PM | #2989 | |
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Quote:
what are you talking about?
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08-04-2009, 09:08 PM | #2990 |
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08-04-2009, 09:10 PM | #2991 |
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I saw an article earlier today on what Specter & Sibelius ran into, the linked story is basically a similar story with some more examples. I don't envy legislators who come home & try to sell this pig in a poke in a lot of districts, doing so seems like a very bad call for many of them. edit to add: Speaking of which, just as a related tangent, I got a political call last week that was different than any I'd ever run across before & I thought it was actually pretty smart business. It starts out as a robocall from our Congressman but if you stay on the line he apparently picks up & has a (presumably short) conversation with you about health care. A sort of long distance individual town hall meeting was the gist of it. Truth is, I didn't bother to stay on the line because a)I just wasn't in the mood and b)there wasn't going to be any shortage of people getting those calls in this district that would be saying what I would have said anyway. I'm not operating under any illusions about how the numbers getting the calls were chosen, whether he gives a damn about what I think personally, or anything else that's remotely naive, I was just impressed by what seems like a smart way to provide some interaction with past & future voters while controlling both the message & the exposure.
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08-04-2009, 09:17 PM | #2992 | |
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Kathleen Sebelius - Health-Care Reform's Many Benefits Include Peace of Mind - washingtonpost.com
Quote:
1. She makes $250,000 between her and her husband and they're worried about covering their kids? What a terrible situation that's indicative of the general public and their insurance plight. We can only hope and pray that her sons are covered under the new bill. 2. Don't let the details get in the way? Yes, what a silly thought to consider the details when you have 1000+ pages of documents and a system changing bill being considered. And people wonder why Kansans didn't shed a tear when she moved out of town. Last edited by Mizzou B-ball fan : 08-04-2009 at 09:34 PM. |
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08-04-2009, 09:25 PM | #2993 | |
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Quote:
Agreed. This can't help the relationship between the White House and moderate Democrats. They're being nudged/forced to vote for this mess of a bill and then they have to go back to their constituents to try to sell it. It's a no win situation and there's going to be hard feelings either way. |
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08-04-2009, 09:30 PM | #2994 |
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I can't wait for the Obama supporters to claim how Republicans are drafting people to do this. Sorry this is independents & Republicans who think this is a terrible idea and who make up more than half the population. I would say it is the same when the independents and Democrats started turning against the Iraq wars. You didn't complain then when organized Democratic groups brought out the troops. The country thinks this is a bad idea and it's not going to happen.
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08-04-2009, 09:35 PM | #2995 | |
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Quote:
So what has more weight? Your opinion or public polls that say Health Care has less than 50% support. Why wouldn't you expect there to be about 50% of the people there against the Senator/Democratic Official? If they were doing a speech against Child Porn or Murder there probably wouldn't be a strong turn out against. A lot of people have different opinions on this health care proposal. Just saying they are wrong doesn't change 50%+ of the population's mind. |
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08-04-2009, 09:39 PM | #2996 |
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Anyone ever wonder if these board members who joined in July 2009 are just Democratic and Republican shills sent out to debate talking points on larger message boards?
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08-04-2009, 09:41 PM | #2997 |
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Nah, we've had a lot of both for years
SI
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08-04-2009, 10:35 PM | #2998 | |
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Kansans also wanted to teach our kids that the Earth is 6,000 years old. We aren't talking about the brightest bulbs in the box. |
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08-04-2009, 10:42 PM | #2999 |
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Well, she stepped down with a 46% approval rating. But I'd say that's not too bad for a Democrat in a deep red state. Among independents, she had a 58% approval - 37% disapproval.
I'd say it's more accurate to say they were divided on her than they were happy to see her step down. SurveyUSA News Poll #15290
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08-05-2009, 06:06 AM | #3000 |
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Lets not let accuracy get in the way.
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