The 2011 NBA Offseason---Stern says no - Page 6

Pumpy Tudors · 09-07-2011, 04:58 PM

please macedonia please win this

Groundhog · 09-08-2011, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

please macedonia please win this

sounds like your boy Bo had himself a nice game vs Georgia.

Pumpy Tudors · 09-08-2011, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groundhog

sounds like your boy Bo had himself a nice game vs Georgia.

The man is a beast. He'll never play a minute in the NBA, but he's going to have a very good pro career.

whomario · 09-09-2011, 01:01 PM

yeah, McCaleb is fun to watch. Plus their leader/go-to-guy is a 6´10 guy who looks like a cross between bouncer, mobster and body builder and throws up 5+ 3 pointers a game

Germany beats Turkey, now only need to beat Lithuania at home and hope for some other results, easy as cake really

(especially since being at hom and all there is no chance Lithuania goes half speed ...)

I think either Lithuania or Spain will win it, Spain is simply extremely good (especially the Gasol brothers who combine for like 40 and 15 in 25 minutes a game each) while Lithuania has homecourt and is a really well built team.

Valanciunas has been super impressive.

whomario · 09-14-2011, 02:53 PM

Macedonia just beat the hosts Lithuania 67-65 in one of the most shocking upsets of the sports year so far to move into the semi finals. They were literally breaking down from exhaustion (very thin rotation) going up against the host team and the frantic fans.
Heck, 2 of the 3 Frontcourt players look more like mafia-goons than basketball players.

Bo McCalebb was amazing once more.

After today they have the worst FG% of any of the 24 teams (under 36%). Their 2nd option Pero Antic shoots 35% and is a C/PF, their best backcourt players shoots 27% while playing 37 minutes a game (out of 40).

Spain comfortably beats Slovenia in the other quarterfinal today.

Tomorrows Quarter Finals :

Greece - France
Russia - Serbia

Pumpy Tudors · 09-14-2011, 04:22 PM

please fyr of macedonia please win and go to olympics

LloydLungs · 09-14-2011, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

The man is a beast. He'll never play a minute in the NBA, but he's going to have a very good pro career.

He probably won't play in the NBA, but an increasing number of people are having a hard time figuring out why. Yeah, he's short -- shorter guys than him made the NBA and contributed. I don't get it. It almost seems like a blacklist or something. I have Hornets season tickets and League Pass. I watch tons of NBA basketball. Literally every game I watch, I see guys on the floor who aren't as good as Bo McCalebb. He wouldn't be a star, but no question he could be a 15- to 20-minute role player.

Have to settle for Johnny Giavotella with the Royals in terms of pro Privateers for now (and probably for the rest of time).

Ironhead · 09-15-2011, 10:01 PM

So I wanted to try and find out what Gallinari is up to but all of the recent articles are written in Italian. When I went to look at the first one Chrome asked me if I wanted to translate the page.

I admit it, I laughed. NSFW?

Spoiler

whomario · 09-19-2011, 12:55 PM

Spain wins the Eurobasket, beating France in the final 98-85. The first 2 1/2 quarters were some of the best basketball i´ve seen, then spain kept playing brilliant offense and got a few more stops.
The relatively high score for France doesn´t do the spanish defense justice, they were brilliant there for long stretches (Ibaka in the 2nd quarter gave his best prime-ben-wallace impression, the PGs played great on Parker).

Navarro had 27 after scoring 26 in the quarterfinal against slovenia and 35 in the semi final including 17 in the deciding 3rd quarter of the quarter final game and then 19 in the 3rd quarter of the semi to put Macedonia behind for good.

Russia beat Macedonia in the 3rd place game.

Navarro deservedly voted tournament MVP, All tournament team :

Tony Parker
Bo McCalebb
Juan Carlos Navarro
Andrei Kirilenko
Pau Gasol

that was fun, now please get it together and give me an NBA season to look forward too, ok ?

stevew · 09-20-2011, 02:09 PM

Larry Coon is money(as usual)

NBA lockout: Why the owners will win the lockout - ESPN

Quote:

There was a brief glimmer of hope that Tuesday's bargaining session would yield some sort of progress. Amid hushed rumors over the weekend that the players would move on the financial issues if the owners would move on the structural issues, the session amounted to little more than a stare-down. Hopes for a compromise that would allow training camps to start on time were effectively dashed.

So much for that idea.

The owners are from Mars and the players are from Venus -- while the owners see a broken league in need of a huge financial overhaul, the players see one that needs just a few tweaks -- mostly on the owners' side -- before everyone can resume rolling in the dough. They get together occasionally to remind each other how high the stakes are, and point out the consequences should the other side fail to come down from its high horse. They have also exchanged snarls with each other in the media, and occasionally in the legal system.

So where is this all headed?

In this dispute ideology has trumped pragmatism, and both sides have been too entrenched in their own viewpoints to consider the kinds of concessions that eventually will be needed to bridge the gap ... er, gulf. We've reached the point where the lack of progress will have tangible consequences. Very little time remains before training camps are scheduled to open, and even if the two sides had a handshake agreement today they'd still need to get a lot of things done before opening the doors to the players. They'd have to finalize the details of the agreement, write the final draft, proofread it, sign it, distribute it to the teams, decide when free agency starts, and then hold an abbreviated offseason where players are signed and trades are completed.

If a deal isn't hammered out soon, then it's not good news for the players. The longer this lockout lasts, the stronger the owners' position becomes. The players can make it tough on the owners in the meantime, but they can't prevent the inevitable. In a game of tug-of-war, the bigger side wins. In this dispute the owners are the bigger side. Here are several reasons why the owners hold more of the trump cards, and the players need a deal sooner, rather than later.

Arguments in principle no longer matter
The two sides do agree on something -- the league really is losing money. But that's where the agreement ends. The league points to losses of $370 million (audited), $340 million (audited) and $300 million (estimated) over the preceding three seasons, and has shared its certified financial statements with the players to prove it. It's all kosher according to generally accepted accounting practices (called GAAP), and much of it represents money going out the door on an annual basis -- the cost of running the league.

The players contend that the league is more profitable than it has led us to believe, and say that certain categories of expenses should be excluded from these discussions. One of these is the interest payments on debt used to finance franchise purchases. It is common for some of the purchase price of teams to be financed, and the interest on this debt counts toward the team's bottom line. According to union president Derek Fisher, this interest totaled $130 million in 2010-11, and none of it should be the players' problem. Just as players aren't entitled to share in the profits when a team is sold, neither should they be saddled with expenses related to buying the team in the first place.

The players say that if you remove the expenses that don't apply to them, the losses are closer to $100 million than $300 million, and seven to nine teams, rather than 22, are really struggling. The players' proposals have reflected this interpretation.

The players say that acquisition expenses and operational expenses should not be mixed. The owners say that these are all variables in one big equation that allows the league to exist -- and hopefully turn a profit. To them it's all money that's going out the door, and the league isn't sustainable unless this money is accounted for. And the two sides have passed the point where the merits of either side's arguments are going to carry the day.

Nowhere else is the contrast between the two sides' positions so vivid. But we've already reached the point where such arguments in principle are irrelevant. Neither side is going to convince the other of the merits of its own logic. No one is going to have an epiphany and say "you were right about that."

Arguments in principle simply don't matter any longer.

The owners have more at stake
This one is simple. The owners have hundreds of millions of dollars invested in their franchises. For many owners, the difference between a favorable deal and an unfavorable one is the difference between turning a profit and continuing to pour in money, year after year.

The players were extraordinarily well paid in the previous agreement, and will continue to be extraordinarily well paid (relative to what they could make elsewhere) under the next agreement -- no matter how much it tilts in the owners' favor. And the new deal can be structured so that the lower-paid players have to sacrifice less.

Every measure of financial compromise costs individual owners more than individual players. Let's say the two sides are $300 million apart, and agree to split the difference -- giving up $150 million each. With 30 teams, each owner gives up $5 million. But with 450 players, an individual player gives up a third of a million.

The stakes are simply a lot higher for the owners.

Time is on the owners' side
In a battle between millionaires and billionaires, the billionaires will generally come out on top. The NBA owners are richer and have deeper pockets. They can better afford to drag their feet, knowing that even though the lockout hurts, the players will be hurting more.

It is also much cheaper to run a locked-out league. They don't have to pay the players 57 percent of their overall revenues. Jet charters? Hotels and meals for road trips? Gone, along with the expense of putting on the games themselves.

The league also gets a lot of its money in advance. Teams are still paid on their national TV contracts, and only have to pay back the money in arrears if games are missed -- which will be a problem after the lockout, not during. And they've already collected money from season-ticket holders.

Finally, the owners' window of time is much longer. The average NBA career lasts less than five years, but an NBA owner may hang on to his team for decades. Any losses from missed games and bad PR stemming from the current lockout can be made up over time through a more favorable agreement. This is not true for most NBA players. The lost salary from 2010-11 may never be recouped. These players stand to lose more in 2010-11 than they stand to gain by leveraging a better deal.

Players' conflict of interest: Current players versus future players
For the union leaders the goal is not simply to make the best possible deal for the current NBA players. They previously rejected a proposal which guarantees them at least $2 billion per year over the next 10 years, but decouples their salaries from revenues so that their overall share could fall to less than 40 percent in later years of the deal -- after most of the current players have retired.

So far they have refused to treat this negotiation like the national debt and pass the burden on to the next generation. But as the lockout progresses and the players begin to miss paychecks, dissent could rise. Players who stand on principle today could be faced with sacrificing a significant portion of their career earnings in order to protect future players who are now in grade school. Some players will put increasing pressure on union leadership to get a deal done in order to protect their own nest egg.

The owners are a more cohesive unit
In addition to the gap between current and future players, there are also demographic differences between richer and poorer players, older and younger, those playing overseas and those staying home, and there are outside pressures from agents and sponsors.

On the league's side it is said that there are two principal factions: longtime owners and newer owners who paid a premium for their teams, are heavily leveraged, and can't continue to operate without a significant financial overhaul. However, the owners have presented a homogenous and unified front behind David Stern, and can likely maintain it longer.

Over time, it is more likely that the players will succumb to the increasing pressure and outside interests. Splits may develop between players who are already set for life, and those for whom a lost season represents a huge portion of their career earnings.

The players need the owners more than the owners need the players
Where can the players make salaries that are comparable to what they can earn in the NBA, even with a deal that is favorable to the owners? Nowhere. FIBA leagues in Europe and China pay much less, and few jobs are available. China also won't allow players to return to the NBA should the labor dispute be settled midseason, which will prevent players currently under NBA contracts from playing there.

Starting a new league would present numerous obstacles. It is unlikely that an upstart league will consist of 30 teams and pay commensurate salaries, so there will likely be many players making much less than they made in the NBA, and many more players stuck on the outside looking in. A new league would have to find arenas in which to play, along with new sponsorships and TV contracts.

More importantly, a new league would need to secure a great deal of financing. Any potential owner faces a great risk to his capital should the NBA open its doors and resume business. Financing an upstart league might be too risky for any investor.

A new league also would be faced with the same issues that plague the NBA. In addition to paying the players, the new league also would have to cover expenses. There is no reason to think that such a league wouldn't be faced with the same choice between dealing with operating losses and playing its players less.

While the players need these 30 teams, the owners consider these 450 or so players to be mostly fungible. With an average career length of about 4.7 years, players are replaced on a regular basis. The exception is star players, around whom the league is marketed, and who tend to have much longer careers. These players are not so easily replaced, and losing them could have significant and long-lasting effects.

However, league executives don't necessarily concur. "This is much less a star-driven league than you think," said one. Another echoed the same sentiments, telling CBSSports.com, "They won't make squat and no one will remember who they are in a few years."

But it's not all one-sided
These factors all point to an eventual deal that significantly favors the owners. But that's not to say that in this game of tug-of-war, the players aren't going to put up a struggle. The players have been here before, and are better prepared this time to withstand a prolonged work stoppage.

The players successfully used the element of surprise in 1964, telling the league just two hours before the All-Star Game that they wouldn't play unless the league agreed to put a pension plan in place. The league returned the favor in 1998, giving the players just three months' notice that it was reopening the 1995 CBA. This time the players are ready, and the union has been telling players for two years that they must curtail spending and save money in preparation for what could become a year without NBA basketball.

The players were also helped by a windfall resulting from the terms of the 2005 agreement. In order to meet its 57 percent guarantee the league had to refund the entire $162 million escrow balance, and supplement it with a check for $26 million, payable to the players it was locking out. The players' war chest is further strengthened by money that continues to come in, in the form of endorsements and overseas salary. A few players even had the foresight to negotiate contracts in which some of their 2010-11 salary is deferred to 2011-12, so they will continue to receive a steady income during the lockout. Unlike the players of 1998-99, these players are hunkered down.

Some players were scheduled to receive salary in advance of the season (as early as July 1) and have already missed paydays, but for most of the league the regular pay schedule begins on Nov. 15, and those players won't start to feel the pinch until then. For this reason, many feel the league will continue to drag its feet until November before serious horse trading begins.

Countermeasures
In the meantime, the players haven't been content to just sit around while time continues to slip away. They have filed a charge with the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB), contending that the league has not been negotiating in good faith (among other things). The NLRB has finished its preliminary investigation, and its initial briefs are expected soon. If the NLRB finds that the charge has merit, the board can issue a complaint, initiating a lengthy administrative process that begins with a hearing before an administrative law judge. In the meantime, the NLRB can seek an injunction lifting the lockout pending the final resolution of the complaint. This injunction would force the league to open its doors, which would provide the players with a great deal of leverage.

The players know that even with a number of expenses (such as player salaries and travel costs) not being paid during the lockout, many expenses will remain. These include facility costs, front-office salaries, and interest payments on the league's enormous debt. If the work stoppage extends into the season, then the lost revenue from television, advertising, ticketing and concessions will make the problem worse. The league may be better equipped to withstand a lengthy work stoppage, but it'll be no picnic.

A prolonged lockout will have a lasting effect -- it will take a long time for the league to win back the fans it alienates. Both sides expect revenues to increase significantly over the next several years. The players feel the owners won't want to jeopardize this over what they largely perceive as a money grab.

The nuclear option
The players also have the option of decertifying the union, which would shift the arena of the dispute from labor law to antitrust law. Such a move would allow the players to challenge many of the league practices, including the lockout itself, as anticompetitive, and potentially subject the owners to treble damages (up to $6 billion a year) should the players prevail in an antitrust suit.

But Fisher and the union also see the downside to decertification. "When you choose to decertify, you give up all the things that have been negotiated and fought for," he said. "It's truly only there if we absolutely have to make that choice."

Decertification will become a viable option as games are canceled and the entire season is jeopardized, when continued negotiation is increasingly perceived as a dead end. Even the threat of decertification provides the players with negotiating leverage -- the league has filed a federal lawsuit asking the court to declare that the lockout does not violate antitrust laws, and that the players' contracts would become null and void should the players decertify (the league filed its own charge with the NLRB at the same time).

While many legal experts believe this lawsuit has little chance to succeed, it does send a signal to the players that there may be serious consequences if they vote to decertify, and it may delay or dissuade the players from a decertification vote.

Where we're headed
With increasing murmurs that the players' confidence in his leadership is waning, Billy Hunter is now in the hot seat. Some agents may be ready to lead a charge to decertify the union which would end Hunter's tenure as lead negotiator. With both time and his grip slipping away, he may be in a now-or-never situation for negotiating an amicable solution.

If the union hasn't already decertified by then, the pressure will greatly increase by Nov. 15, when most players begin to miss paychecks.

Around mid-January it probably will become necessary to cancel the entire season. The sides reached this point in 1999, barely salvaging an abbreviated, 50-game campaign. This time around it is unclear if the two sides will be able to salvage even a partial season.

The bottom line is that the NBA is no longer a league where wealthy owners with plenty of money to spend can use their teams as playthings. Recent purchasers have paid hundreds of millions of dollars, have financed significant portions of their acquisitions, and are operating on much thinner margins. These owners don't want to operate a league that continues to lose significant amounts of money. A compromise deal that does not significantly tilt the players' revenue guarantee in the owners' favor will be unacceptable.

On the other hand, these owners didn't invest hundreds of millions of dollars to let their arenas sit empty. An underlying assumption is that the players will begin to fold once they start missing paychecks. But what if they don't? The owners would have two alternatives -- the first is to continue the hard-line stance, banking it all on the union eventually breaking. This may be the only way to get the significant changes they are seeking.

The other alternative would be to become more conciliatory once it is clear that the season is in imminent danger and the players aren't going to fold. If the season is going to be salvaged, then this course of action may be necessary. If we get to January and neither side is willing to budge, then there likely won't be a season.

This leaves a short window to do what inevitably will be done if we are to have a season -- hammer out a compromise deal. If the two sides get it done now, they can avoid the loss of games. If they wait until January, then the lost revenue will never be recouped.

Through it all, NBA fans will continue to be the ones caught in the middle. And like a child caught in a divorce, they could care less about who's right or who wins.

They just want mommy and daddy to stop fighting.

Author's note: A couple months ago I assembled a team of financial and legal experts to help me parse through the league's financial documents and make sense of the financial issues that underlie the labor dispute. They contributed greatly to my previous article on the lockout and continue to donate their time and expertise. I am greatly indebted to them for their contributions.

Larry Coon is the author of the NBA Salary Cap FAQ. Follow him on Twitter.

Groundhog · 10-06-2011, 03:57 PM

Well, the sole positive to come out of this lockout - Andrew Bogut just signed with my local team, the Sydney Kings.

SirFozzie · 10-06-2011, 04:00 PM

Sorry, Groundhog:

Andrew Bogut of Milwaukee Bucks' deal with Australian team is off, agent says - ESPN

Groundhog · 10-06-2011, 04:10 PM

Yup, just realised I spoke to soon - was catching up on posts on an aussie bball forum, and just not saw the latest.

Groundhog · 10-06-2011, 04:10 PM

Although Patty Mills is suiting up for an NBL side, it just happens to be my most hated team...

DeToxRox · 10-07-2011, 06:10 PM

Kobe dishing on Kwame Brown. I found this hilarious:

Quote:

“I got to say, it was tough doing it that year. I was playing with guys, God bless them ? God bless them ? but Kwame Brown. Smush Parker. We had one game right before…by the way, what I say here, I say directly to them, see what I’m saying, I don’t talk behind people’s back. Things that I say to you, I’m comfortable saying this to them and I’ve said this to them...But like, the game before we traded for Pau, were playing Detroit and I had like 40 points towards the end of the game. This is back when Detroit had Rasheed [Wallace], Chauncey [Billups] and those guys, so we had no business being in the game. So down the stretch of the game, they put in a box and one. So I’m surrounded by these players, Detroit players, and Kwame is under the basket, all by himself. Literally, like all by himself. So I pass him the ball, he bobbled it and it goes out of bounds.

“So we go back to the timeout and I’m [upset], right? He goes, ‘I was wide open.’ ‘Yeah, I know.’ This is how I’m talking to him, like, during the game. I said, ‘You’re going to be open again, Kwame, because Rasheed is just totally ignoring you.’ He said, ‘Well, if I’m open don’t throw it to me.’ I was like, ‘Huh?’ He said, ‘Don’t throw it to me.’ I said, ‘Why not?’ He said, well, ‘I’m nervous. If I catch it and he foul me, I won’t make the free throws.’ I said, ‘Hell no!’

“I go to Phil [Jackson], I say, ‘Hey Phil, take him out of the game.’ He’s like, ‘Nah, let him figure it out.’ So, we lose the game, I go the locker room, I’m steaming. Steaming. I’m furious. Then, finally I get a call, they said, ‘You know what, we got something that’s happening with Pau.’ I was like, ‘Alright. Cool.’…That’s what I had to deal with the whole year.”

DeToxRox · 10-10-2011, 10:05 PM

Kenyon Martin .. Okay

Alf · 10-11-2011, 03:15 AM

Quote:

The league also gets a lot of its money in advance. Teams are still paid on their national TV contracts, and only have to pay back the money in arrears if games are missed -- which will be a problem after the lockout, not during. And they've already collected money from season-ticket holders.

- I bet season-ticket holders will not be happy when the season gets cancelled and I suppose that season tickets will be postponed to the season after that one

- as for TV revenue, I expect broadcast TVs to renegotiate the deal so it costs them less than it currently costs

- also, in terms of "image". Seeing no NBA basketball played for one full season is not a good thing for the NBA itself

SirFozzie · 10-15-2011, 04:00 PM

I'm now convinced there is going to be no season.

The moment the talks fell apart - TrueHoop Blog - ESPN

the key section is at the end, and it talks about how the true believers have seized control on both sides.

SunDevil · 10-15-2011, 04:28 PM

Bill Simmons Avoids a Few Subjects Before Making His Week 6 NFL Picks - Grantland

TroyF · 10-15-2011, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I'm now convinced there is going to be no season.

The moment the talks fell apart - TrueHoop Blog - ESPN

the key section is at the end, and it talks about how the true believers have seized control on both sides.

What the players don't understand is that they have no possible way to win a PR battle. The economy sucks and you are making millions. And the three they chose to send into the room?

Kobe Bryant - 196 million
Garnett - 270 million
Pauly P - 137 million

That's how much they've made in their careers in only salary. I'm sorry, in a weak economy, you can't win the PR battle by claiming you are short changed. You may as well come out and say you can't feed your family like Spree did.

And no matter what they think, the PR battle is huge. Yes, the owners were always going to win this. (just like the NFL owners were always going to win)They are still going to win. But if you can't get the media and the fans on your side, the focus turns to you and the questions get tough for you. Those three players are going to have those numbers thrown in their face every single time they are at a public event.

The owners? All they have to do is ask the question, "what would you do if your employees were demanding to make more money than you?"

For most people, that's the end of the discussion right there. Yes, we can argue its simplicity. We can argue some of the numbers in the article. Even then, most of us will have a tough time making a case for the players. Most people won't go to that level. They'll be against the players.

In the end, we all know how this ends. The players will lose. It's just how much will they lose by. As the article above stated, the quicker they come to an agreement the better off they will be. They have zero chance in a long dispute.

SirFozzie · 10-15-2011, 06:22 PM

I disagree. This is the owners trying to get a bailout from the players. No one held a gun to the owners head and made them sign the contracts. Can't stand the heat? Get out of the kitchen.

Who's worth more to the LA Lakers? Jerry Buss, or Kobe Bryant? Hint: It's not Jerry.

one side is negotiating. Willing to make some concessions. The other side doesn't want negotiating. It wants surrender.

The owners plans assume the players surrender.

JPhillips · 10-15-2011, 06:47 PM

There are 12 NBA owners that have a net worth over a billion dollars. Why doesn't that hurt the owners?

Lathum · 10-15-2011, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips

There are 12 NBA owners that have a net worth over a billion dollars. Why doesn't that hurt the owners?

Because the owners don't get paid to play a game most people would play for free.

TroyF · 10-15-2011, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I disagree. This is the owners trying to get a bailout from the players. No one held a gun to the owners head and made them sign the contracts. Can't stand the heat? Get out of the kitchen.

Who's worth more to the LA Lakers? Jerry Buss, or Kobe Bryant? Hint: It's not Jerry.

one side is negotiating. Willing to make some concessions. The other side doesn't want negotiating. It wants surrender.

The owners plans assume the players surrender.

And they are going to get it.

If you REALLY believe Kobe Bryant is worth more to the Lakers, you are flat out crazy. Jerry Buss has owned the Lakers for 32 years. You think Bryant will last 32 years in a Laker uniform? No, I don't think so either. Superstars will always want to play in LA. When (not if, when) Kobe is no longer a Laker, there will be superstars who will take his place.

I explained why the owners are going to win the PR battle above. It doesn't matter if you agree with my reasons, just read the blogs, listen to the national media and listen to the water cooler talk. The players are getting blamed and they will continue to get blamed. The players tried a full blown PR twitter assault this week and still didn't gain any footing.

As for your comment above, can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen? Exactly how many billionaires exist who want NBA franchises? How many billionaires who want to own basketball franchises exist in the world? It's nice a handfull of players could sign overseas.And it's nice that a select group of star players can get paid crazy money for a half season in Europe. But those are the minority. There isn't a congregation of billionaires who have stepped up and said "If you don't want to pay em, let me do it. We'll take the same labor contract they were with before and play under the same rules."

They don't exist. The quicker the players realize this, the better off they'll be. You also obviously failed to read the article above. The players who had been in the negotiating room for all those hours were making some strides. Then the Garnett crew came in and led the revolt and blew that progress up.

I don't care if you believe it or not. Overall public sympathy for the players is not going to be there. The owners will win this in the end game. There is no question.

cougarfreak · 10-15-2011, 07:22 PM

Any way the owners can just get rid of the players, and fill the teams with scabs? The players are absolutely nuts.

JPhillips · 10-15-2011, 07:47 PM

I think the players will lose because nobody gives a shit about the NBA. The NFL deal had to happen because people cared. If the NBA loses a whole season nobody will feel the pain.

But I don't see the owners as morally superior to the players. They won't release their real accounting numbers and almost all of them could sell at a significant profit. They aren't fighting for their business, they're greedy.

duckman · 10-15-2011, 07:55 PM

Employees should not be getting 57% of the revenues when they hold little to no liabilities/risks. That's why the players' argument is falling flat for me. It should be the other way around.

JPhillips · 10-15-2011, 08:01 PM

I thought the 57% number was after some revenue was excluded. I can't find the details of that, though.

molson · 10-15-2011, 08:37 PM

I'm rooting for the same thing I always root for in these situations, an extended stoppage that leads to some kind of interesting chaos - replacement players, mass contraction, a new league...something wacky. I don't think there's any chance of any of that happening though, unless Kevin Garnett continues to act as chief player negotiator and keeps yelling at everyone.

Edit: There is SO much available entertainment and sports out there, nobody except the real die-hards are missing the NBA. Which in a way, is kind of good for the league, because I don't think most of the fans are vested enough to take anything personally.

stevew · 10-15-2011, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I thought the 57% number was after some revenue was excluded. I can't find the details of that, though.

I believe that they keep something like 300m for operating costs off the top.

JPhillips · 10-15-2011, 09:10 PM

Do any of the owners have the NBA team as their primary business? I can't think of any. That's another big difference compared to the NFL. There are still several families that rely of NFL money for their income. It seems like the NBA is a league of hobbyist owners. They don't need the league to play to make their money.

edit: Buss needs the Lakers money.

korme · 10-15-2011, 09:22 PM

This fall has the potential to be the most devastating season of my adult life. I need the NBA like air in my lungs. This blows.

bulletsponge · 10-15-2011, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson

I'm rooting for the same thing I always root for in these situations, an extended stoppage that leads to some kind of interesting chaos - replacement players, mass contraction, a new league...something wacky. I don't think there's any chance of any of that happening though, unless Kevin Garnett continues to act as chief player negotiator and keeps yelling at everyone.

Edit: There is SO much available entertainment and sports out there, nobody except the real die-hards are missing the NBA. Which in a way, is kind of good for the league, because I don't think most of the fans are vested enough to take anything personally.

+1. i always root for lost seasons and spoiled brats getting their comeupins. i hope they lose 2 seasons and they all shoot themselves in the feet

DaddyTorgo · 10-15-2011, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bulletsponge

. i hope they all shoot themselves in the feet

This is the NBA, so that could literally happen.

TroyF · 10-15-2011, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Do any of the owners have the NBA team as their primary business? I can't think of any. That's another big difference compared to the NFL. There are still several families that rely of NFL money for their income. It seems like the NBA is a league of hobbyist owners. They don't need the league to play to make their money.

edit: Buss needs the Lakers money.

Buss needs the Lakers money? A PHD, aerospace engineer, ace investor and real estate mogul needs the Lakers or he's screwed? I kinda doubt it. Don't get me wrong, I know he loves that money, but I'd bet he has some reserves set aside just in case.

And I never said the owners had the morally superior ground. I didn't even say I sided with the owners. I said the players aren't going to win a PR battle and that there is no way they win this labor negotiation. Part of that reason is the NBA. Part of it is the economy. Part of it is because there are some idiotic guys who are now "leading the negotiation for the NBA players" Part of it is because the owners have deeper pockets.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. The players will lose and the quicker they realize this, the better of they will be.

JPhillips · 10-15-2011, 10:17 PM

I don't see any reason for the star players to back down. They'll make money doing short appearances for foreign teams. The majority of players need the paycheck, but the stars don't and they control the union.

On Buss, I've read the majority of his income comes via the Lakers. I don't think he's hurting, but he's not going to have the same income without basketball. Guys like Allen or Cuban or Simon in Indiana make very little of their income through basketball. The NBA could never play again and they wouldn't feel a financial pinch. I think there are a lot more NFL owners that rely on the income stream from the team.

Atocep · 10-15-2011, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I don't see any reason for the star players to back down. They'll make money doing short appearances for foreign teams. The majority of players need the paycheck, but the stars don't and they control the union.

That's still a small number of players. Once the majority realize those stars don't have their best interests in mind and are simply protecting their massive contracts things will change. Once enough paychecks are missed you're going to see that majority desperate for any deal they can get and then the pressure will be on those stars to get something done.

A unified front can only last so long when the guys running the negotiations are making as much as KG, Kobe, Pierce are when compared to those they're supposed to be representing.

The players have zero chance of winning this.

Lathum · 10-15-2011, 11:05 PM

The players are going to get crushed in this because the owners are a group of smart businessmen who have made billions and the players for the most part are are a bunch of uneducated thugs.

Neon_Chaos · 10-16-2011, 07:18 AM

And the fact that the NBA isn't the owners' primary source of income.

TroyF · 10-16-2011, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep

That's still a small number of players. Once the majority realize those stars don't have their best interests in mind and are simply protecting their massive contracts things will change. Once enough paychecks are missed you're going to see that majority desperate for any deal they can get and then the pressure will be on those stars to get something done.

A unified front can only last so long when the guys running the negotiations are making as much as KG, Kobe, Pierce are when compared to those they're supposed to be representing.

The players have zero chance of winning this.

bingo. Read what I wrote above. The superstars will be able to make money still. They represent, what, 5 to 10 percent of the players in the NBA? The owners will hold out and wait for the majority of the players to break. Just like the NFL owners did. All the players Talk about a war chest was crippled when they lost a couple of court rulings. The rank and file start missing checks and it is over.

I'm a college grad and belong nowhere near negotiations like this. I find it hard to believe Kevin Garnett is going to lead the players to a pot of gold with his negotiating skills. The best chance the players have of getting a decent deal happens Monday. If there is no progress made there, they are toast and will lose mightily in the end.

BishopMVP · 10-16-2011, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

The players are going to get crushed in this because the owners are a group of smart businessmen who have made billions and the players for the most part are are a bunch of uneducated thugs.

Thank you Jonathan Swift.

stevew · 10-16-2011, 08:26 PM

I dunno about thugs, but it's hilarious that Garnett gets to negotiate with the Ivy League elite from the owners side. Quite a large chasm in the amounts of knowledge there.

SirFozzie · 10-16-2011, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

The players are going to get crushed in this because the owners are a group of smart businessmen who have made billions and the players for the most part are are a bunch of uneducated thugs.

wow. That comes very close to the race card. I don't think you meant it, though.

Smart Businessmen? If they were smart business men, they wouldn't be in this situation.

TroyF · 10-16-2011, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

wow. That comes very close to the race card. I don't think you meant it, though.

Smart Businessmen? If they were smart business men, they wouldn't be in this situation.

I support small businessmen for a living. Your last statement is 100% incorrect. Even a smart businessman gets blindsided by unforeseen circumstance. The difference between smart businessmen and dumb businessmen is what happens when things start going south.

A smart businessman will lay off employees if he can't afford them. A dumb one will keep the full staff because he might need it if he gets busy again.

Now, I understand, the NBA isn't a small business. Having said that, some of the same principles still apply. If the league is losing money, being smart is holding out for a deal that doesn't lose money.

(note, I'm not calling the NBA owners smart businessmen either. Just stating your premise is not correct. Kind of the same thing as calling all NBA players thugs)

SirFozzie · 10-16-2011, 09:04 PM

I'm talking the deals that were handed out to people like Eddy Curry.

stevew · 10-16-2011, 09:32 PM

They still have to spend 57% regardless of who the money goes to.

Gary Gorski · 10-17-2011, 11:48 AM

Troy has it right - the players were never going to win this battle because at the end of the day a) millions is less than billions and b) they are the replaceable parts in the machine. I can't believe that they are really this dense and cannot come to that understanding.

I don't think that the guys running most NBA teams are not smart businessmen but I think they're just not smart basketball people - either that or they just don't pay that much attention to anything other than is more money coming in than going out. They're hiring incompetent general managers who are passing out ridiculous contracts (even in the summer prior to when you know a lockout is coming) but in the end they're the ones who make the league. No, nobody watches the league to see Jerry Buss but there would be no team to watch without him.

The players cannot and will not win this battle. If I was Fisher and Hunter I would be begging Stern for 50/50 at this point but really there's no reason the owners should give it to them now. They've already started down the path of cancelling the season so it's not like they can avoid a negative PR hit for that so why not just hold out for what they really want? KG and friends have made their dough but how long is the rest of the league going to be cool missing those checks every two weeks? Eventually the guys who aren't sitting on a pile of money are going to revolt - McGee already said that players are ready to fold and I think that even though he's not the sharpest guy that he's probably dead on about that and could you blame them? You work all your life and put all of your energies into one profession and you've got the opportunity to make millions...are you really going to throw that away over a couple BRI percentage points? Would you rather make a million than 900,000? Sure but would you rather make 900k playing a game or $10/hr at a job like everyone else?

The owners are smart enough to realize at least that much. So yes its going to cost the big market teams some profits (and some small market teams are actually better off not playing it seems) but now there's the potential for a massive win for the owners so I doubt many of them are losing much sleep over this.

Troy mentioned the PR battle and the players, for once, had a chance to actually gain something in that battle. Nobody cared about the stupid "Let us play" bit because the players could be playing if they made a deal. Instead they could have gone in, taken 50/50, come out and said look the owners locked us out, we put on games for you, we made 100% of the concessions, gave back $x billion over y years, asked for absolutely nothing in return and we made a deal so that there could be a season for you the fans. Instead the players are greedy, the owners are stupid and there's no basketball.

DeToxRox · 10-20-2011, 06:37 PM

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski

Negotiations have broken off in New York and no new meetings are scheduled, league source tells Y! Sports.

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski

Talks on a 50-50 BRI split broke down, and labor talks have ended, source tells Y! No new meetings scheduled. Huge setback in this lockout.

View Poll Results: Will the lockout cost the NBA any games?
Yes	57	79.17%
No	11	15.28%
Trout	4	5.56%
Voters: 72. You may not vote on this poll

09-07-2011, 04:58 PM	#251
Pumpy Tudors Bounty Hunter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pittsburgh, PA	please macedonia please win this __________________ No, I am not Batman, and I will not repair your food processor.

09-14-2011, 02:53 PM	#255
whomario Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2007	Macedonia just beat the hosts Lithuania 67-65 in one of the most shocking upsets of the sports year so far to move into the semi finals. They were literally breaking down from exhaustion (very thin rotation) going up against the host team and the frantic fans. Heck, 2 of the 3 Frontcourt players look more like mafia-goons than basketball players. Bo McCalebb was amazing once more. After today they have the worst FG% of any of the 24 teams (under 36%). Their 2nd option Pero Antic shoots 35% and is a C/PF, their best backcourt players shoots 27% while playing 37 minutes a game (out of 40). Spain comfortably beats Slovenia in the other quarterfinal today. Tomorrows Quarter Finals : Greece - France Russia - Serbia Last edited by whomario : 09-14-2011 at 02:54 PM.

09-14-2011, 04:22 PM	#256
Pumpy Tudors Bounty Hunter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pittsburgh, PA	please fyr of macedonia please win and go to olympics __________________ No, I am not Batman, and I will not repair your food processor.

09-19-2011, 12:55 PM	#259
whomario Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2007	Spain wins the Eurobasket, beating France in the final 98-85. The first 2 1/2 quarters were some of the best basketball i´ve seen, then spain kept playing brilliant offense and got a few more stops. The relatively high score for France doesn´t do the spanish defense justice, they were brilliant there for long stretches (Ibaka in the 2nd quarter gave his best prime-ben-wallace impression, the PGs played great on Parker). Navarro had 27 after scoring 26 in the quarterfinal against slovenia and 35 in the semi final including 17 in the deciding 3rd quarter of the quarter final game and then 19 in the 3rd quarter of the semi to put Macedonia behind for good. Russia beat Macedonia in the 3rd place game. Navarro deservedly voted tournament MVP, All tournament team : Tony Parker Bo McCalebb Juan Carlos Navarro Andrei Kirilenko Pau Gasol that was fun, now please get it together and give me an NBA season to look forward too, ok ? Last edited by whomario : 09-19-2011 at 01:05 PM.

09-09-2011, 01:01 PM	#254
whomario Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2007	yeah, McCaleb is fun to watch. Plus their leader/go-to-guy is a 6´10 guy who looks like a cross between bouncer, mobster and body builder and throws up 5+ 3 pointers a game Germany beats Turkey, now only need to beat Lithuania at home and hope for some other results, easy as cake really (especially since being at hom and all there is no chance Lithuania goes half speed ...) I think either Lithuania or Spain will win it, Spain is simply extremely good (especially the Gasol brothers who combine for like 40 and 15 in 25 minutes a game each) while Lithuania has homecourt and is a really well built team. Valanciunas has been super impressive.

09-15-2011, 10:01 PM	#258
Ironhead College Prospect Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Barnegat, NJ	So I wanted to try and find out what Gallinari is up to but all of the recent articles are written in Italian. When I went to look at the first one Chrome asked me if I wanted to translate the page. I admit it, I laughed. NSFW? Spoiler

10-06-2011, 03:57 PM	#261
Groundhog Coordinator Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia	Well, the sole positive to come out of this lockout - Andrew Bogut just signed with my local team, the Sydney Kings. __________________ Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. --Ambrose Bierce

10-06-2011, 04:00 PM	#262
SirFozzie Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: The State of Insanity	Sorry, Groundhog: Andrew Bogut of Milwaukee Bucks' deal with Australian team is off, agent says - ESPN __________________ Check out Foz's New Video Game Site, An 8-bit Mind in an 8GB world! http://an8bitmind.com

10-06-2011, 04:10 PM	#263
Groundhog Coordinator Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia	Yup, just realised I spoke to soon - was catching up on posts on an aussie bball forum, and just not saw the latest. __________________ Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. --Ambrose Bierce

10-06-2011, 04:10 PM	#264
Groundhog Coordinator Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia	Although Patty Mills is suiting up for an NBL side, it just happens to be my most hated team... __________________ Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. --Ambrose Bierce

10-10-2011, 10:05 PM	#267
DeToxRox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan	Kenyon Martin .. Okay

10-15-2011, 04:00 PM	#269
SirFozzie Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: The State of Insanity	I'm now convinced there is going to be no season. The moment the talks fell apart - TrueHoop Blog - ESPN the key section is at the end, and it talks about how the true believers have seized control on both sides. __________________ Check out Foz's New Video Game Site, An 8-bit Mind in an 8GB world! http://an8bitmind.com

10-15-2011, 06:22 PM	#272
SirFozzie Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: The State of Insanity	I disagree. This is the owners trying to get a bailout from the players. No one held a gun to the owners head and made them sign the contracts. Can't stand the heat? Get out of the kitchen. Who's worth more to the LA Lakers? Jerry Buss, or Kobe Bryant? Hint: It's not Jerry. one side is negotiating. Willing to make some concessions. The other side doesn't want negotiating. It wants surrender. The owners plans assume the players surrender. __________________ Check out Foz's New Video Game Site, An 8-bit Mind in an 8GB world! http://an8bitmind.com

10-15-2011, 06:47 PM	#273
JPhillips Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Newburgh, NY	There are 12 NBA owners that have a net worth over a billion dollars. Why doesn't that hurt the owners? __________________ To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers

10-15-2011, 07:22 PM	#276
cougarfreak College Starter Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Out of Grad School Hell :)	Any way the owners can just get rid of the players, and fill the teams with scabs? The players are absolutely nuts. __________________ “I don’t like the Cubs,” Joey Votto said. “And I’m not going to pat anybody with a Cubs uniform on the back."

10-15-2011, 07:47 PM	#277
JPhillips Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Newburgh, NY	I think the players will lose because nobody gives a shit about the NBA. The NFL deal had to happen because people cared. If the NBA loses a whole season nobody will feel the pain. But I don't see the owners as morally superior to the players. They won't release their real accounting numbers and almost all of them could sell at a significant profit. They aren't fighting for their business, they're greedy. __________________ To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers

10-15-2011, 08:01 PM	#279
JPhillips Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Newburgh, NY	I thought the 57% number was after some revenue was excluded. I can't find the details of that, though. __________________ To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers

10-15-2011, 08:37 PM	#280
molson General Manager Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: The Mountains	I'm rooting for the same thing I always root for in these situations, an extended stoppage that leads to some kind of interesting chaos - replacement players, mass contraction, a new league...something wacky. I don't think there's any chance of any of that happening though, unless Kevin Garnett continues to act as chief player negotiator and keeps yelling at everyone. Edit: There is SO much available entertainment and sports out there, nobody except the real die-hards are missing the NBA. Which in a way, is kind of good for the league, because I don't think most of the fans are vested enough to take anything personally. Last edited by molson : 10-15-2011 at 08:39 PM.

10-15-2011, 09:10 PM	#282
JPhillips Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Newburgh, NY	Do any of the owners have the NBA team as their primary business? I can't think of any. That's another big difference compared to the NFL. There are still several families that rely of NFL money for their income. It seems like the NBA is a league of hobbyist owners. They don't need the league to play to make their money. edit: Buss needs the Lakers money. __________________ To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers Last edited by JPhillips : 10-15-2011 at 09:13 PM.

10-15-2011, 09:22 PM	#283
korme Go Reds Join Date: May 2001 Location: Bloodbuzz Ohio	This fall has the potential to be the most devastating season of my adult life. I need the NBA like air in my lungs. This blows.

10-15-2011, 10:17 PM	#287
JPhillips Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Newburgh, NY	I don't see any reason for the star players to back down. They'll make money doing short appearances for foreign teams. The majority of players need the paycheck, but the stars don't and they control the union. On Buss, I've read the majority of his income comes via the Lakers. I don't think he's hurting, but he's not going to have the same income without basketball. Guys like Allen or Cuban or Simon in Indiana make very little of their income through basketball. The NBA could never play again and they wouldn't feel a financial pinch. I think there are a lot more NFL owners that rely on the income stream from the team. __________________ To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers

10-15-2011, 11:05 PM	#289
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	The players are going to get crushed in this because the owners are a group of smart businessmen who have made billions and the players for the most part are are a bunch of uneducated thugs.

10-16-2011, 07:18 AM	#290
Neon_Chaos Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Parañaque, Philippines	And the fact that the NBA isn't the owners' primary source of income. __________________ Come and see.

10-16-2011, 08:26 PM	#293
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	I dunno about thugs, but it's hilarious that Garnett gets to negotiate with the Ivy League elite from the owners side. Quite a large chasm in the amounts of knowledge there. Last edited by stevew : 10-16-2011 at 09:29 PM.

10-16-2011, 09:04 PM	#296
SirFozzie Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: The State of Insanity	I'm talking the deals that were handed out to people like Eddy Curry. __________________ Check out Foz's New Video Game Site, An 8-bit Mind in an 8GB world! http://an8bitmind.com

10-16-2011, 09:32 PM	#298
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	They still have to spend 57% regardless of who the money goes to.

10-17-2011, 11:48 AM	#299
Gary Gorski Wolverine Studios Join Date: Oct 2003	Troy has it right - the players were never going to win this battle because at the end of the day a) millions is less than billions and b) they are the replaceable parts in the machine. I can't believe that they are really this dense and cannot come to that understanding. I don't think that the guys running most NBA teams are not smart businessmen but I think they're just not smart basketball people - either that or they just don't pay that much attention to anything other than is more money coming in than going out. They're hiring incompetent general managers who are passing out ridiculous contracts (even in the summer prior to when you know a lockout is coming) but in the end they're the ones who make the league. No, nobody watches the league to see Jerry Buss but there would be no team to watch without him. The players cannot and will not win this battle. If I was Fisher and Hunter I would be begging Stern for 50/50 at this point but really there's no reason the owners should give it to them now. They've already started down the path of cancelling the season so it's not like they can avoid a negative PR hit for that so why not just hold out for what they really want? KG and friends have made their dough but how long is the rest of the league going to be cool missing those checks every two weeks? Eventually the guys who aren't sitting on a pile of money are going to revolt - McGee already said that players are ready to fold and I think that even though he's not the sharpest guy that he's probably dead on about that and could you blame them? You work all your life and put all of your energies into one profession and you've got the opportunity to make millions...are you really going to throw that away over a couple BRI percentage points? Would you rather make a million than 900,000? Sure but would you rather make 900k playing a game or $10/hr at a job like everyone else? The owners are smart enough to realize at least that much. So yes its going to cost the big market teams some profits (and some small market teams are actually better off not playing it seems) but now there's the potential for a massive win for the owners so I doubt many of them are losing much sleep over this. Troy mentioned the PR battle and the players, for once, had a chance to actually gain something in that battle. Nobody cared about the stupid "Let us play" bit because the players could be playing if they made a deal. Instead they could have gone in, taken 50/50, come out and said look the owners locked us out, we put on games for you, we made 100% of the concessions, gave back $x billion over y years, asked for absolutely nothing in return and we made a deal so that there could be a season for you the fans. Instead the players are greedy, the owners are stupid and there's no basketball. __________________ Wolverine Studios http://www.wolverinestudios.com

10-20-2011, 06:37 PM	#300
DeToxRox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan	WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski Negotiations have broken off in New York and no new meetings are scheduled, league source tells Y! Sports. WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski Talks on a 50-50 BRI split broke down, and labor talks have ended, source tells Y! No new meetings scheduled. Huge setback in this lockout.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)