I Have Been Saved

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by panerd

I bet Front Office Cricket Central in New Dehli is having the same back and forth about being Hindus. Doesn't it scare Christians that you are a Christian pretty much because you were born in a Christian country. Doesn't that show you how illogical religion is?

I am sure there will be some poster born in China that is Christian or some Jewish poster that became Chrisitan, but let's face the hard facts here. Your parents were Christians and so are you. Had your parents been Muslim you probably would be that. Had you been born in some African country you would worship some God that Christians probably shake their heads at here. As been mentioned before if your were thousands of years before here you would be following Thor, Zeus, Athena, etc.

It's scary that such an easily proven point seems to be left out of the discussion and is almost certianly the reason why a lot of Americans are Christian. Even scarier is no matter who ends up being right (Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Atheists) almost 75% of the world is wrong. I will put my bets on the atheists as they are the only ones that seem to apply any logic to the discussion. Everyone else is just scared that when they die that is it. We are no different than deer, bees, wolves, bacteria, trees, dogs... we die and that's it.

Agreed.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Each to their own, I think admitting you don't know something is something which requires strength of character - partially because a lot of people think like you do.

If you KNOW you're going to be pushed by people into one camp or another yet realise you don't believe either arguement is convincing enough to sway you completely then it takes a special sort of person to remain true to themselves and admit that they'd prefer not to please anyone and continue to wait on the evidence.

I see this more as a scientific approach to religion to be honest, getting all the facts in before deciding if a theory holds water ... will these people ever know for sure, probably not ... but nothing wrong with them admitting it imho.

I can understand that point of view although I don't think I'm pleasing anyone by saying I don't believe. I could see where I would please someone by stating that I do believe, but not necessarily where I don't. Saying you don't know is honest, but I think the preponderence of credible evidence points towards a disbelief in a higher power.

I think this goes again to possibility vs. probability. Is it a possibility the Christians are right? Absolutely. Is a probability? No. There is no evidence to prove that there is in fact a Christian God. The only evidence that has been brought forth is circular in nature. To give this possibility the same weight that you would give any other proof of an argument is ridiculous. Either believe or don't believe. Atheists also admit that they can't disprove that there isn't a God. There's some doubt there, but it's negligible at best.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Ok, is there some sort of mandatory black out period or something when someone has just been saved?

I sure would like to see tarcone at least make a comment or two regarding some of the questions he was asked. Otherwise, now it's just starting seem like a drive by prothlesizing.

he went back to the Dark Side after reading most of the "hahaha, you believe in God and the Tooth Fairy!!1" and is now realizing drinking and whoring is much more fun than bible study.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Actually one of the things which intruiges me is that Christianity has very limited roots in the areas where it was born, instead having the bulk of its believers far from the middle east.

Anyone who's a Christian scholar want to try and explain this oddity?

Probably something having to do with "god's will"...

[boberot]

Can anybody honestly blame Tarcone for not wanting to weigh back in on this?

Dude just had his mind blown and wanted to share what, to him, was phenomenal news.

He never asked for a grad school rhetorical shitstorm to break out.

Not that there hasn't been some really intelligent and thoughtful discussion, but damn . . . .

[Drake]

Despite the fact that I self-identify as a believer, I tend to lean more toward Marc's thinking about religion. The primary reason I'm a Christian is because my parents are. If they'd been Muslim, I'd be Muslim. Doesn't make my faith any less real to me or of any less value.

I also tend to think of religion the same way I think about sports: I'm a Colts fan because they're the local team. They're the team I hear about most often, so I've developed an attachment. I don't always think they're right. I don't always think they're the best team, but you also can't talk me out of believing that they're MY team -- no matter how much logic you apply, how many statistics you throw at me or how many other sexy teams with better systems and better personnel there are out there.

I think that's also why I don't argue religion -- either with believers in other faiths, agnostics or athiests. I believe in my team. I believe that your team is not as good as mine -- no matter how much evidence you throw at me, because I also assume that you're invested in your team.

At the end of the day, only one of our teams is going to win the Super Bowl. Might be mine. Might be yours. Even if it's yours, I'm still going to believe in my team. Point is, none of us really know.

So it's really not worth arguing about.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by boberot

Can anybody honestly blame Tarcone for not wanting to weigh back in on this?

Dude just had his mind blown and wanted to share what, to him, was phenomenal news.

He never asked for a grad school rhetorical shitstorm to break out.

Not that there hasn't been some really intelligent and thoughtful discussion, but damn . . . .

Yes, it must have been a complete shock to tarcone and everyone else here at FOFC that an innocent post on religion has instead become a debate re: religion/atheism/agnosticism.

I mean, who could have possibly seen that coming.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Same can be said for a lot of events. Why does a sweet little girl get taken, molested, and buried alive in a sexual predators front yard? God can "save" people, but not her? Why don't we ever hear answers for this when it comes to God?

It's why I was pissed to hear all the "Miracle on the Hudson" talk last week. It wasn't a miracle, it was a kickass pilot. If he had crashed the plane, would God have been responsible? Or does he only get credit for the stuff that goes right?

None of it makes sense.

i had this realization when i was about 13 or so, and it's what totally turned me off to religion. subsequently my views have become more well thought out, but initially it was just more of like...anger at this type of thing

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Yes, it must have been a complete shock to tarcone and everyone else here at FOFC that an innocent post on religion has instead become a debate re: religion/atheism/agnosticism.

I mean, who could have possibly seen that coming.

That doesn't make it right. Another related thread that was simply made for debate would have been much more classy and would be easy to be started, imo.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

That doesn't make it right. Another related thread that was simply made for debate would have been much more classy and would be easy to be started, imo.

Maybe not, but that's how it always is with any threads to do with religion or politics. There's been some pretty interesting posts in this thread from all sides IMO, which makes the thread a little more worthwhile than 30 or so congratulation posts then sinking off the frontpage, don't you think?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by boberot

Can anybody honestly blame Tarcone for not wanting to weigh back in on this?

Dude just had his mind blown and wanted to share what, to him, was phenomenal news.

He never asked for a grad school rhetorical shitstorm to break out.

Not that there hasn't been some really intelligent and thoughtful discussion, but damn . . . .

Tarcone's been here long enough to know what would happen to this thread.

To be honest I thought it would turn out WAY worse.

[Logan]

And let's not forget that key sentence he chose to include.

[boberot]

It has been mostly civil, I agree.

Schmidty reinforces my point: why not just start another thread to debate, or "resurrect" one of the 75 other religious-themed threads. I just told my kids this evening: many things are right or wrong simply based upon the context within which they happen.

I guess the real answer is that Tarcone should not have chosen this forum / medium to share his news. However, like I posted earlier [and as he probably knew deep down] this stream of debate was inevitable.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by boberot

It has been mostly civil, I agree.

Schmidty reinforces my point: why not just start another thread to debate, or "resurrect" one of the 75 other religious-themed threads. I just told my kids this evening: many things are right or wrong simply based upon the context within which they happen.

I guess the real answer is that Tarcone should not have chosen this forum / medium to share his news. However, like I posted earlier [and as he probably knew deep down] this stream of debate was inevitable.

I guess my answer would be this is a message board and threads take whatever direction they take.

I saw a thread about some Denzel Washington movie someone started, why not put it in the Movie thread?

I'm not gonna get annoyed because they started a new thread, I can always just choose to not click on it.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Tarcone's been here long enough to know what would happen to this thread.

To be honest I thought it would turn out WAY worse.

I didn't to be honest - this forum is one of the few ones I've visited where people actively try and show respect by and large to other peoples opinions and the level of debate is generally quite intelligent and some patience is shown to people with regards to posts.

(so in summary - this board rocks )

[ISiddiqui]

Shut up, loser!! Your beliefs suck ass!!

[MylesKnight]

Congrats to you Tarcone on your discovery.

One thing I'd like to add.. I've always considered FOFC to be my local dive pub of the world wide web. Now as is customary in the bar scene, discussion of politics and religion is supposed to be avoided, as everyone has their own esteemed opinion on the issue at hand. That's just me though.

[Noop]

I think some of you are completely full of shit. I read this thread and can not believe some of the crap that is being thrown around.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

(so in summary - this board rocks )

That being the case, can you tell me how to run FM in debug mode? My game keeps crashing when I put the USA in Europe

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Noop

I think some of you are completely full of shit. I read this thread and can not believe some of the crap that is being thrown around.

Outside of a couple of posts, I'm not seeing anything that would elicit that response.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Drake

Despite the fact that I self-identify as a believer, I tend to lean more toward Marc's thinking about religion. The primary reason I'm a Christian is because my parents are. If they'd been Muslim, I'd be Muslim. Doesn't make my faith any less real to me or of any less value.

I also tend to think of religion the same way I think about sports: I'm a Colts fan because they're the local team. They're the team I hear about most often, so I've developed an attachment. I don't always think they're right. I don't always think they're the best team, but you also can't talk me out of believing that they're MY team -- no matter how much logic you apply, how many statistics you throw at me or how many other sexy teams with better systems and better personnel there are out there.

I think that's also why I don't argue religion -- either with believers in other faiths, agnostics or athiests. I believe in my team. I believe that your team is not as good as mine -- no matter how much evidence you throw at me, because I also assume that you're invested in your team.

At the end of the day, only one of our teams is going to win the Super Bowl. Might be mine. Might be yours. Even if it's yours, I'm still going to believe in my team. Point is, none of us really know.

So it's really not worth arguing about.

This is one of the best layman's term descriptions of belief I have ever seen. Bravo. Fucking Bra-fucking-vo.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Tarcone's been here long enough to know what would happen to this thread.

To be honest I thought it would turn out WAY worse.

Indeed, this thread had its moments on the brink but it has remained quite civil, even with an HA sighting

Originally Posted by boberot

It has been mostly civil, I agree.

Schmidty reinforces my point: why not just start another thread to debate, or "resurrect" one of the 75 other religious-themed threads. I just told my kids this evening: many things are right or wrong simply based upon the context within which they happen.

I guess the real answer is that Tarcone should not have chosen this forum / medium to share his news. However, like I posted earlier [and as he probably knew deep down] this stream of debate was inevitable.

I disagree, I think there is a place for some topics, that being said, this is the "off topic" forum so he put it in a perfectly acceptable place. The fact that it created actual discussion and debate simply shows the higher class of people we have here at FOFC.

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

I didn't to be honest - this forum is one of the few ones I've visited where people actively try and show respect by and large to other peoples opinions and the level of debate is generally quite intelligent and some patience is shown to people with regards to posts.

(so in summary - this board rocks )

You haven't delved into some of the OLD discussions then have you There were some real doozies back in the day. Where's Franklinnoble and his freak....err wife when you need them =)

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Outside of a couple of posts, I'm not seeing anything that would elicit that response.

I have to agree with you GH, Noop: Whats the deal man? why did you have this reaction to things?

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Outside of a couple of posts, I'm not seeing anything that would elicit that response.

Might be because I sat down and read this entire thread rolling my eyes at the usual cast of characters peddling their bullshit just with another topic.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Noop

Might be because I sat down and read this entire thread rolling my eyes at the usual cast of characters peddling their bullshit just with another topic.

Ok, maybe I'm not seeing what you're seeing? Is there an example you can give? There are a few people that appear to be a little less knowledgeable overall (I may be one of them, who knows?) but other than some inflammatory stuff that got beaten down hard and fast I think this has been quite interesting?

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by Drake

I also tend to think of religion the same way I think about sports: I'm a Colts fan because they're the local team. They're the team I hear about most often, so I've developed an attachment. I don't always think they're right. I don't always think they're the best team, but you also can't talk me out of believing that they're MY team -- no matter how much logic you apply, how many statistics you throw at me or how many other sexy teams with better systems and better personnel there are out there.

And us agnostics are like those losers who are fans of the Yankees even when they don't live near the NYC area, just because they're the best team and most likely to come out on top.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Ok, maybe I'm not seeing what you're seeing? Is there an example you can give? There are a few people that appear to be a little less knowledgeable overall (I may be one of them, who knows?) but other than some inflammatory stuff that got beaten down hard and fast I think this has been quite interesting?

yes yes, please you must divulge more so we all know whether you're on our side or one of them.

[DrAFTjunkie]

Originally Posted by bignej

I saw the article you are referring to with the helmet fly's or whatever. This doesn't actually contradict the theory of evolution as much as it helps validate another theory(cant remember the name).

I will also say that its not very fair to compare a scientific theory supported by evidence and tested to a book that is essentially a hole with very few real world references that make people think its a textbook. The bible is nothing but stories that give promises of rainbows, puppies and sunshine. All vague promises. This morning I saw a billboard that said, "He is the Answer". What the hell does that mean? Its like a damn horoscope.

Never said it contradicted the theory of evolution; I said it called Darwinism, which people thump as vehheminlty as the bible..

As for the bible, I agree that it's a collection of stories, but whether you like it or not, of lot of it's characters actually walked the earth and that is supported by historical fact. It's not just some Salinger novel. The stories...yeah, heavily skewed by years of being passed down from mouth to mouth and then modified by the powers that be to keep the masses in line, but David, Mary, Jeus, Pilot were real people. There is eveidence from countries that don't give two shits and a fuck about christianity that support this. I don;t think you can deny that, and I think the comparision isn't as far off, IMO, as you're saying it is. People cling to the bible to answer the unanswerable just as people cling to scientific theories for the same reason. It's human nature to go with what makes the most sense to you. I'll admit that it seems to me that science is a lot, lot, lot more viable than the bible, but science is not not etched in stone either. For example: the stated facts on the very beginning of the universe is that there was absolute nothing, and then there was an explosion which created everything. I've seen/read this dozens of times. Umm...what? Why? How? There is no expalination for this that I've ever heard of, and the theory that a god created this is just as viable to me than a pure scientific explaination until I hear someone make sense of it. Because nobody on earth truely knows what's what. I had widespread bone cancer as a lad, there was a benefit/vigil and it disappeared completely. I can't explain why, the doctors coudln't explain why, but it happened. Not to say that I think god intervened, nor do I think he would've if he truely existed, but the fact remains. I went from a terminal, veritable cripple to completely healthy overnight.

All in all, any scientist worth his weight in salt will tell you that theories are just that. Theories do nothing but support an idea. IMO, anyone who clings to anything (on either side of the spectrum) is just plain deluded. We're not ever going to know the whole truth. And I'll say it again: anyone who tramples Tarcone for what he believes is a hypoocrite. Regardless of what you think, you're far less ahead of the curve than you might think.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

yes yes, please you must divulge more so we all know whether you're on our side or one of them.

What do you want to know? I'm not sure I get this post?

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Drake

Despite the fact that I self-identify as a believer, I tend to lean more toward Marc's thinking about religion. The primary reason I'm a Christian is because my parents are. If they'd been Muslim, I'd be Muslim. Doesn't make my faith any less real to me or of any less value.

I also tend to think of religion the same way I think about sports: I'm a Colts fan because they're the local team. They're the team I hear about most often, so I've developed an attachment. I don't always think they're right. I don't always think they're the best team, but you also can't talk me out of believing that they're MY team -- no matter how much logic you apply, how many statistics you throw at me or how many other sexy teams with better systems and better personnel there are out there.

I think that's also why I don't argue religion -- either with believers in other faiths, agnostics or athiests. I believe in my team. I believe that your team is not as good as mine -- no matter how much evidence you throw at me, because I also assume that you're invested in your team.

At the end of the day, only one of our teams is going to win the Super Bowl. Might be mine. Might be yours. Even if it's yours, I'm still going to believe in my team. Point is, none of us really know.

So it's really not worth arguing about.

I agree with this post, a wonderful analogy that in my opinion makes sense.

I am not religious(I find religion to be a major problem in our world; mostly western religion.) I believe in God, my reasons why are not important but I have feel comfortable in my belief of God.

Also, what exactly is he being saved from? The same things that God created?

[Noop]

RendeR I read your post, so I don't want you to think I ignored you but for the sake of this thread I will just leave what I stated as it without further explanation.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by DrAFTjunkie

The stories...yeah, heavily skewed by years of being passed down from mouth to mouth and then modified by the powers that be to keep the masses in line, but David, Mary, Jeus, Pilot were real people. There is eveidence from countries that don't give two shits and a fuck about christianity that support this. I don;t think you can deny that, and I think the comparision isn't as far off, IMO, as you're saying it is.

Hmmm. OK, I'm interested in which contemporary historical sources support David, Mary, and Jesus? The fact that there wasn't any (that I'm aware of, at least) was one of the big alarm bells for me years ago.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by DrAFTjunkie

Never said it contradicted the theory of evolution; I said it called Darwinism (whixh people thump as vehheminlty as the bible) into question.

As for the bible, I agree that it's a collection of stories, but whether you like it or not, of lot of it's characters actually walked the earth and that is supported by historical fact. It's not just some Salinger novel. The stories...yeah, heavily skewed by years of being passed down from mouth to mouth and then modified by the powers that be to keep the masses in line, but David, Mary, Jeus, Pilot were real people. There is eveidence from countries that don't give two shits and a fuck about christianity that support this. I don;t think you can deny that, and I think the comparision isn't as far off, IMO, as you're saying it is. People cling to the bible to answer the unanswerable just as people cling to scientific theories for the same reason as science. It's human nature to go with what makes the most sense to you. I'll admit that it seems to me that science is a lot, lot, lot more viable than the bible, but science is not not etched in stone either. For example: the stated facts on the very beginning of the universe is that there was absolute nothing, and then there was an explosion which created everything. I've seen/read this dozens of times. Umm...what? Why? How? There is no expalination for this that I've ever heard of, and the theory that a god created this is just as viable to me than a pure scientific explaination until I hear someone make sense of it. Because nobody on earth truely knows what's what. I had widespread bone cancer as a lad, there was a benefit/vigil and it disappeared completely. I can't explain why, the doctors coudln't explain why, but it happened. Not to say that I think god intervened, nor do I think he would've if he truely existed, but the fact remains. I went from a terminal, veritable cripple to completely healthy overnight.

All in all, any scientist worth his weight in salt will tell you that theories are just that. Theories do nothing but support an idea. IMO, anyone who clings to anything (on either side of the spectrum) is just plain deluded. We're not ever going to know the whole truth. And I'll say it again: anyone who tramples Tarcone for what he believes is a hypoocrite. Regardless of what you think, you're far less ahead of the curve than you might think.

This is a major crux for me in the whole debate. In MY opinion, not everyone or anyone elses, I see two things at odds that really shouldn't be.

The Bible gives a reason for creation, for how everything got here and why (because the invisible friend to millions wanted it to be, sorry, it was funnier in my head) and that's fine, people who believe may or may not believe that Genesis is the factual creation story.

Science says "this is what the evidence is showing us so far as to how it all began" and while its a decent story also, its also not proven. It is based on the evidence of the world we live in. its not saying "this is how the universe came into being" so much as its saying "this is how the universe works as we know it"

those two things aren't mutually exclusive as far as I can see. Personally I think someone looked at the universe and created a story, or fable to help describe the eons of time it took for the earth to get to this point. Which again, doesn't bother me at all.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Noop

RendeR I read your post, so I don't want you to think I ignored you but for the sake of this thread I will just leave what I stated as it without further explanation.

NP, feel free to PM me if you want to discuss it further!

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by RendeR

What do you want to know? I'm not sure I get this post?

i'm just bored...

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Noop

Might be because I sat down and read this entire thread rolling my eyes at the usual cast of characters peddling their bullshit just with another topic.

Isn't that kind of the point of a message board?

No one forced you to read any of it.

[DanGarion]

From the OC Register
UCI asks students what they’d ask God - Sciencedude - OCRegister.com

UCI asks students what they’d ask God
January 24th, 2009, 3:00 am · 19 Comments · posted by Gary Robbins, science writer-editor

After a day of interviewing scientists at UC Irvine I started to leave campus only to be stopped by the sight of students clustered around a tall kiosk topped with religious questions, including this one: If you could ask God 1 question …

People were provided with Sharpies to write their thoughts. Students wrote a variety of things, ranging from the profound to the silly to the curious. I’m providing a sample of what people said. Add your own questions in the Comments section of this blog item.

* How come there are wars when you have the power to prevent them?
* Could you make a burrito so hot that not even you yourself could eat it?
* Do you like pie?
* If man is created in your image, why are we so imperfect?
* Do you like pie?
* If you’re omnipotent, omniscient and omnibelevolent, why is there suffering?
* What happens when we die?
* Can you make the surf good at 52nd?
* Why, despite promoting such a clear message of peace, love and forgiveness, has the Bible been the cause of overwhelmingly hatefulful, intolerant and bigoted following?
* If you really made this your divine planet, don’t you think it really needs some work?

[DrAFTjunkie]

LMFAO. If Alanis--I mean god--is anything like the angels, she doesn't eat, so I guess pie is out of the questions.

[DrAFTjunkie]

Originally Posted by RendeR

This is a major crux for me in the whole debate. In MY opinion, not everyone or anyone elses, I see two things at odds that really shouldn't be.

The Bible gives a reason for creation, for how everything got here and why (because the invisible friend to millions wanted it to be, sorry, it was funnier in my head) and that's fine, people who believe may or may not believe that Genesis is the factual creation story.

Science says "this is what the evidence is showing us so far as to how it all began" and while its a decent story also, its also not proven. It is based on the evidence of the world we live in. its not saying "this is how the universe came into being" so much as its saying "this is how the universe works as we know it"

those two things aren't mutually exclusive as far as I can see. Personally I think someone looked at the universe and created a story, or fable to help describe the eons of time it took for the earth to get to this point. Which again, doesn't bother me at all.

Well said.

It doesn't both me either because it's a basic human function...explain the unexplained. Thank Christ (hardy har) we're past the Zeus thunderbolt stories.

**edit** I'm fighting through Dayquil, which is falsely marketed so it seems, so I apologoze for spelling and grammatical error that I've noticed. Hopefully I'm, not losing anyone with jibber jabber.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by What DrAFTjunkie said

**edit** I'm fighting through Dayquil, which is falsely marketed so it seems, so I apologoze for spelling and grammatical error that I've noticed. Hopefully I'm, not losing anyone with jibber jabber.

Originally Posted by What DrAFTjunkie meant to say

**edit** I'm high as hell, which is correctly marketed so it seems, so I apologoze for spelling and grammatical error that I've noticed. Hopefully I'm, not losing anyone with jibber jabber.

.

[DrAFTjunkie]

Originally Posted by panerd

.

You are spot on, my good man. I'm quite wrecked, which I;m not used to anymore. I have bacterial laryngitis (sp.) which is not good for a singer. In fact, I missed my 1st show with my new band tonight. Not a good start.

BTW, if anyone is interested in hearing us (way off topic, I know) message me with your addy and I'll send a song by tomorrow night at this time. The band is called Ladentracks and we're all acoustic hard rock. Wow...that was shameless.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Anthony

he went back to the Dark Side after reading most of the "hahaha, you believe in God and the Tooth Fairy!!1" and is now realizing drinking and whoring is much more fun than bible study.

I'll drink to that!

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Drake

Despite the fact that I self-identify as a believer, I tend to lean more toward Marc's thinking about religion. The primary reason I'm a Christian is because my parents are. If they'd been Muslim, I'd be Muslim. Doesn't make my faith any less real to me or of any less value.

I also tend to think of religion the same way I think about sports: I'm a Colts fan because they're the local team. They're the team I hear about most often, so I've developed an attachment. I don't always think they're right. I don't always think they're the best team, but you also can't talk me out of believing that they're MY team -- no matter how much logic you apply, how many statistics you throw at me or how many other sexy teams with better systems and better personnel there are out there.

I think that's also why I don't argue religion -- either with believers in other faiths, agnostics or athiests. I believe in my team. I believe that your team is not as good as mine -- no matter how much evidence you throw at me, because I also assume that you're invested in your team.

At the end of the day, only one of our teams is going to win the Super Bowl. Might be mine. Might be yours. Even if it's yours, I'm still going to believe in my team. Point is, none of us really know.

So it's really not worth arguing about.

While a good analogy, the flaw in it is that you argue both that your team is the best and that your team is going to win.

To continue your analogy, during the regular season teams win and lose. There is only one Super Bowl for all eternity. If your team is 0-16, then I'd hazard to say that they cannot win the Super Bowl. Only the teams that make the playoffs have a chance to win the Super Bowl. Regardless of whether you think your team is the best, the important thing is who you believe is going to win. With that in mind, you can still have good feelings about your hometown team, but you should rationally understand that they cannot win and be able to logically pick a winner out of the various beliefs.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Isn't it a prove fact that the smarter people are the less they believe in organized religion anyway...?

Correct. Many recent studies have shown this.

[RainMaker]

For those interested, Daniel Dennett has written a phenomenal book that discusses a lot of the topics in this thread. Particularly why Christianity above other religions succeeded. It also discusses where organized religion came from and why we are so inclined to believe in it.

The book isn't a condemnation of religion and in fact gives many theories as to why it may be a good thing. But it's a fascinating look into why we evolved to accept it. If you're into evolution, the human mind, and religion, it's a must read. Warning though, it isn't a quick read and will really put your mind to the test.

Amazon.com: Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon: Daniel C. Dennett: Books

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

All I know is, god must hate rock and roll.

Dead: John Lennon, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, the guys from Lynard Skynard, Elvis, Buddy Holly, etc...yet, we are stuck with the Simpson girls, Hanson, Michael Bolton, so many other crappy people now that I don't even know their names.

Just not fair I tell ya.

Arguably God loves rock and roll, and simply couldn't wait for these guys to die of natural causes so he could get an awesome jam session going in Heaven....

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Drake

Despite the fact that I self-identify as a believer, I tend to lean more toward Marc's thinking about religion. The primary reason I'm a Christian is because my parents are. If they'd been Muslim, I'd be Muslim. Doesn't make my faith any less real to me or of any less value.

I also tend to think of religion the same way I think about sports: I'm a Colts fan because they're the local team. They're the team I hear about most often, so I've developed an attachment. I don't always think they're right. I don't always think they're the best team, but you also can't talk me out of believing that they're MY team -- no matter how much logic you apply, how many statistics you throw at me or how many other sexy teams with better systems and better personnel there are out there.

I think that's also why I don't argue religion -- either with believers in other faiths, agnostics or athiests. I believe in my team. I believe that your team is not as good as mine -- no matter how much evidence you throw at me, because I also assume that you're invested in your team.

At the end of the day, only one of our teams is going to win the Super Bowl. Might be mine. Might be yours. Even if it's yours, I'm still going to believe in my team. Point is, none of us really know.

So it's really not worth arguing about.

I think that's fine, but the problem comes when the fans of your team want non-football fans to live life by their team's rules. That is really my only problem with organized religion. It's the forcing of people to study their fantasy science and discriminating against members of society because your book says so.

But on a personal level, don't you want it to be more than a guess? And if it is a guess, wouldn't you want to make an educated guess? To pick the team that has the most scientific evidence behind it?

And do you want to live your life based on their rules simply because other people in your area do it too? I personally don't think that this life is just "practice", so I intend to make the most of it. I'm not going to hold back on what I eat or what I want to do because some people in my area believe it's wrong.

[PineTar]

Attenborough reveals creationist hate mail for not crediting God

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Correct. Many recent studies have shown this.

You guys, with your smarty pants.

[Bad-example]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Saying you don't know is honest, but I think the preponderence of credible evidence points towards a disbelief in a higher power.

I think this goes again to possibility vs. probability. Is it a possibility the Christians are right? Absolutely. Is a probability? No. There is no evidence to prove that there is in fact a Christian God. The only evidence that has been brought forth is circular in nature. To give this possibility the same weight that you would give any other proof of an argument is ridiculous. Either believe or don't believe. Atheists also admit that they can't disprove that there isn't a God. There's some doubt there, but it's negligible at best.

Hard to see how one can criticize someone because they refuse to make some leap of faith to either embrace a religion or declare them all false. I think you are hung up on agnosticism vs atheism vs christianity. Is it likely that the christians are completely wrong? Yeah, I think so. That doesn't mean there is no god.

Maybe the atheists are right. Maybe one of the hundreds of faiths around the globe have the right answer. The agnostic declares there is not enough evidence to adopt any of those stances and chooses to keep an open mind.