Vick Sentenced to 23 Months For Dog Fighting

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Michael Vick would not be too hot with the Georgia Force, as Georgia likes to use Chris Greisen's arm to move the ball downfield. They played the same way back when Matt Nagy was at quarterback for them. Michael Vick might make a pretty good defensive back, but if he bulked up a bit, he could be a very good jack linebacker. Georgia's weakness is defense, and they could really use more speed on that side of the ball in the always-tough Southern Division. As a passer, though, I don't think Vick would be capable of more than 80 touchdown passes in a season, and he'd probably have trouble cracking the 60% completion mark. He might hit 62% or so, but --

Oh, wait, you weren't serious.

You know way more about Arena Football than is healthy.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Michael Vick would not be too hot with the Georgia Force, as Georgia likes to use Chris Greisen's arm to move the ball downfield. They played the same way back when Matt Nagy was at quarterback for them. Michael Vick might make a pretty good defensive back, but if he bulked up a bit, he could be a very good jack linebacker. Georgia's weakness is defense, and they could really use more speed on that side of the ball in the always-tough Southern Division. As a passer, though, I don't think Vick would be capable of more than 80 touchdown passes in a season, and he'd probably have trouble cracking the 60% completion mark. He might hit 62% or so, but --

Oh, wait, you weren't serious.

You should get to commentate games. Mike and Mike or whoever they use..annoy me.

[Ksyrup]

This is just an assinine comment:


For a behind-the-scenes look inside the ritualized pro world, NEWSWEEK interviewed "Fat Dog," 45, who didn't want to use his real name because dogfighting is illegal. He raises pit bulls in the low country near Savannah, Ga., and says he can trace his dogs' fighting bloodlines back to the 1800s. "I have attended about 50 professional matches in my life, and I have only seen two or three dogs die. They have every opportunity to quit just like a boxer does," he says. He claims that "90 percent" of dogfight matches don't end in death because of the money invested: "If you lose a good dog, that's $3,500 and then the litter you won't have."

[miked]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

This is just an assinine comment:


For a behind-the-scenes look inside the ritualized pro world, NEWSWEEK interviewed "Fat Dog," 45, who didn't want to use his real name because dogfighting is illegal. He raises pit bulls in the low country near Savannah, Ga...

So that's what goes on at Skydog's Gator practices...

[Ksyrup]

That was quick...



ATLANTA -- Michael Vick's legal troubles prompted Nike on Thursday to suspend the release of its latest product line named after the Atlanta Falcons quarterback.

Nike has told retailers it will not release a fifth signature shoe, the Air Zoom Vick V, this summer. Nike spokesman Dean Stoyer said the four shoe products and three shirts that currently bear Vick's name will remain in stores. Vick will be arraigned next week in a Richmond, Va., federal courtroom on charges of sponsoring a dogfighting operation.

[Eaglesfan27]

How many other sponsors does he have? What is the over/under until they also distance themselves from him?

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Nike spokesman Dean Stoyer said the four shoe products and three shirts that currently bear Vick's name will remain in stores.

And remain, and remain, and continue to remain.

[Noble_Platypus]

I hope that in the not too distant future Mike Vick learns the hard way that 4.3 speed is no good in a 10 by 10 prison shower with 5 other inmates chasing you.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

How many other sponsors does he have? What is the over/under until they also distance themselves from him?

Not nearly as many as he used to have, a trend that predates the latest developments.

A pretty good writeup on this aspect of the story can be found at
http://www.ajc.com/falcons/content/s...rand_0719.html

Summarized briefly, at least five different deals (Coca-Cola, EA Sports, Kraft Foods, Hasbro and, most recently, AirTran) expired over the past few years & were not renewed. And over the past two years, Vick has fallen from #2 among NFL players in jersey sales to #33 this year.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Noble_Platypus

I hope that in the not too distant future Mike Vick learns the hard way that 4.3 speed is no good in a 10 by 10 prison shower with 5 other inmates chasing you.

As distateful as dog fighting is, I don't think I could wish a prison gang rape on anyone.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

This is just an assinine comment:


For a behind-the-scenes look inside the ritualized pro world, NEWSWEEK interviewed "Fat Dog," 45, who didn't want to use his real name because dogfighting is illegal. He raises pit bulls in the low country near Savannah, Ga., and says he can trace his dogs' fighting bloodlines back to the 1800s. "I have attended about 50 professional matches in my life, and I have only seen two or three dogs die. They have every opportunity to quit just like a boxer does," he says. He claims that "90 percent" of dogfight matches don't end in death because of the money invested: "If you lose a good dog, that's $3,500 and then the litter you won't have."

FWIW, that statement is most likely correct. I can state categorically that with the roosters, at least in Tampa it is.

I have a cousin and his father and they were huge in rooster fighting. When I was around 12-13 I was given a rooster to train and fight. I trained him and he entered one fight. He won. I found I had no taste for the sport and I retired him after that.

My point is though, the animal has no choice obviously but the owner sure does and yep I had to make that call when my rooster fought. It was tough since he was a very laid back bird who would explode when he'd had it.

Well, the betting changes as the event was occuring and the odds on my rooster were rising as he was getting his butt kicked and I had to decide whether he'd taken too much punishment or whether he was just getting worked up.

Right before I was going to stop the fight, he went off and unleashed all rooster hell on his foe whose owner quickly stopped the fight himself. For the record, I had been to many, many fights before I got my own rooster and I never saw one die . Ever. I did see them taking care of many really sick ones and some of those surely weren't going to make it but those were from too long hooks rather than any decision to fight to the death.

Now, I know it's only anectdotal evidence but from my experiences, embarrassing as they are to admit and as long ago as they happened, corroborate what he said.

That said, I think either sport is despicable and I think the book should be thrown at anyone who participates but a very big part of me has that "ere but for the grace of god go I" so I guess I'm finding it hard not to be hypocritical and really hate VIck for this when I have done it myself.

Hey, after all, I grew up and realize the errors of my ways. Could happen to him too.

Now, if you don't mind, I think I just threw up a little bit in my mouth after typing that last sentence.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Um, I think you misread the previous post. The dogs can't decide to quit. The owners make the decision, same as your rooster comparison. However, it appears from the indictment that even if you were a dog and could quit voluntarily, your owner would kill you -- mostly likely by electrocution, drowning, or hanging. Yeah, I see the real parallels here to boxing.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Um, I think you misread the previous post. The dogs can't decide to quit. The owners make the decision, same as your rooster comparison. However, it appears from the indictment that even if you were a dog and could quit voluntarily, your owner would kill you -- mostly likely by electrocution, drowning, or hanging. Yeah, I see the real parallels here to boxing.

Actually I thought I had read it right and replied

My point is though, the animal has no choice obviously but the owner sure does and yep I had to make that call when my rooster fought.

to say that part.

The huge difference is that the owner would kill you and that I didn't see but I could certainly see how bad owners could do such horrible things and those who are only moderately bad ones wouldn't and that those would be the ones that the guy above is talking about and most likely the guy who quoted above ran into.

[Axxon]

Dola,

I don't get the boxing reference either but I know with roosters if they don't fight, they aren't forced and the matches are draws. Rarely happens though but I've seen it.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Axxon

Actually I thought I had read it right and replied

In the analogy, the dog is the boxer. A boxer can quit, a dog can't. Yeah, (I guess) owners can quit as can the boxer's trainer, but the dog itself can't quit the same way a boxer can quit, thus saying "They have every opportunity to quit just like a boxer does" is wrong.

[Brillig]

Well, technically, the dog can quit. Vick and his buddies would savagely slaughter the dog afterwards, but the dog doesn't know that. Of course, any dog that had the temperment to quit has already been shot, electrocuted or slammed into the ground until dead.

But yeah, the dog can quit. Blech.

[sabotai]

I think the point is that the dogs don't understand the rules of the contest the way a boxer understands the rules of a boxing match, and it doesn't know that it can quit.

[Brillig]

Generally, in dominance fights amongst pack animals, it's not to the death. So by that standard I'd argue that the dog does know it can quit.

Edit: Additionally, from reading the various articles, it seems like a dog death in the ring is actually a rare occurance. Most dogs die from their wounds after the fight, or are executed by their masters. So I guess the idea that

"90 percent" of dogfight matches don't end in death

might actually be literally correct.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Brillig

Generally, in dominance fights amongst pack animals, it's not to the death. So by that standard I'd argue that the dog does know it can quit.

I'd counter by saying that these dogs are not raised the same way that dogs in the wild are raised by the pack. They are bred and trained (tortured) to be as deadly as they can be to the point that their instinctual behaivor to cower to a dominant male may be suppressed.

But regardless, dominance fights amonst pack animals are for breeding rights. In those fights, the dogs know why they are fighting (because they both want to be the one to fuck the women). In dog fighting, they are simply trained to tear apart the other dog. They aren't fighting for the breeding rights among the pack, they are just doing what their "trainer" has taught them to do.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Brillig

Edit: Additionally, from reading the various articles, it seems like a dog death in the ring is actually a rare occurance. Most dogs die from their wounds after the fight, or are executed by their masters. So I guess the idea that might actually be literally correct.

Holy reading too much into my post batman. Bingo, this is exactly all I was saying. Most trainers don't want their animals to die. They want to stop the fight as he said to protect a sizable investment to them. Most of them are poor.

Animals like MV though, this is chump money and so those normal rules don't apply to him and I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't get him some cred as he didn't play by normal rules.

Again, all I was saying was that from my experiences with roosters, it's not that the animals are dying that is the cruelty. It's the entire process from beginning to stud that sucks and guys doing what MV reportedly did, well, that is really, really rare.

That's all I'm trying to say, really. I'm not comparing Cujo to Ali, or Foghorn Leghorn to Duran, jeez.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by sabotai

I'd counter by saying that these dogs are not raised the same way that dogs in the wild are raised by the pack. They are bred and trained (tortured) to be as deadly as they can be to the point that their instinctual behaivor to cower to a dominant male may be suppressed.

But regardless, dominance fights amonst pack animals are for breeding rights. In those fights, the dogs know why they are fighting (because they both want to be the one to fuck the women). In dog fighting, they are simply trained to tear apart the other dog. They aren't fighting for the breeding rights among the pack, they are just doing what their "trainer" has taught them to do.

This is interesting. I wonder if they have dogs train by fighting other dogs? With our roosters, they never saw another rooster except during a fight. They were trained to be easily riled and aggressive and supposedly by nature are aggressive with their own but no, we never gave them sparring partners or anything like that ( way too risky and expensive a risk ) but we did train them to use spurs but they were typically dulled even for the fight but they could still do considerable damage.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Axxon

This is interesting. I wonder if they have dogs train by fighting other dogs? With our roosters, they never saw another rooster except during a fight. They were trained to be easily riled and aggressive and supposedly by nature are aggressive with their own but no, we never gave them sparring partners or anything like that ( way too risky and expensive a risk ) but we did train them to use spurs but they were typically dulled even for the fight but they could still do considerable damage.

One of the local radio shows were having guys call in who were involved or had attended dog fights, and one guy said it was fairly commonplace for the dog owners and/or their friends to go out and nab someone's house pet to be used as a "sparring partner" in training sessions. :shudders:

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

One of the local radio shows were having guys call in who were involved or had attended dog fights, and one guy said it was fairly commonplace for the dog owners and/or their friends to go out and nab someone's house pet to be used as a "sparring partner" in training sessions. :shudders:

I take back what I said about not wishing prison gang rape on anyone. Stealing a pet to let your monster beat it up? Not cool.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I take back what I said about not wishing prison gang rape on anyone. Stealing a pet to let your monster beat it up? Not cool.

Yeah, I doubt anyone would bother to take my chubby old Dachsund (as mean as he can act to strangers), but I can imagine someone taking my beagle-basset hound mix. She is a bigger dog, but she is also pretty timid and shy, and the thought of her being forced to face some gruesome, snarling beast both scares and angers me.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

One of the local radio shows were having guys call in who were involved or had attended dog fights, and one guy said it was fairly commonplace for the dog owners and/or their friends to go out and nab someone's house pet to be used as a "sparring partner" in training sessions. :shudders:

Yeah, that's horrible. Of course, here the rooster has an advantage because it's not so easy to steal enough family pet roosters to train him with.

Of course, since again, roosters don't spar it's a sad little joke really.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

One of the local radio shows were having guys call in who were involved or had attended dog fights, and one guy said it was fairly commonplace for the dog owners and/or their friends to go out and nab someone's house pet to be used as a "sparring partner" in training sessions. :shudders:

This sounds horrible enough to be an urban legend. I hope so, anyway.

[Axxon]

Here's a quote from a fairly interesting article on rooster fighting. I know it's getting a bit off topic but this was amusing.

Clifton Bryant, a sociologist at Virginia Tech University who has written extensively about cockfighting, said the demographic of cockfighters resembled that of Main Street America from 50 years ago. "They're more likely to be rural, to be married, more likely to go to church, less likely to be divorced, to be veterans, more likely to be conservative,"

Just another thing to blame on the damned republicans.

hxxp://www.animalsvoice.com/PAGES/writes/editorial/news/invest/cockfighting_ending.html

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

This sounds horrible enough to be an urban legend. I hope so, anyway.

Quick Google linkie

To protect pets from being stolen, owners should care for their animals like they would a four-year-old child says Marsh Myers, director of education and community outreach for the Humane Society of Southern Arizona in Tucson. Both children and pets, he says, have similar levels of curiosity and vulnerability.

"Pet owners need to play that role of parent," Myers said. "We live in a society that has some dangerous people in it, and they will target your pets if they're allowed to."

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Small dogs, kittens, and rabbits are more at risk of being stolen for bait, experts say. Pit bulls, though, are commonly targeted by dog fighting rings for potential breeding stock.

In Arizona state representative Ted Downing introduced a bill last month that would make stealing an animal for use in dog fighting a felony with penalties up to two years in jail and fines as high as U.S. $150,000. If the bill becomes state law, Downing says, it could be the first of its kind in the country.

Looks like National Geographics and representative Dowling believe it's happening.

hxxp://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/02/0218_040218_dogfighting_2.html

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Axxon

This is interesting. I wonder if they have dogs train by fighting other dogs?

I'm no expert on dog fighting by any means, but I have had occasional exposure to certain aspects to it.

Someone I used to know rescued a dog that was used to bait the fighters. I don't know exactly how they did it, but they some how restrained the two dogs, or had the in cages, and they would somehow teach the fighting dogs to becomes extremely aggressive towards the bait dogs. I don't know how, but that's how it was explained to me. I don't know exactly how they encouraged the aggressive behaivor. And they would also use the bait dog before each fight to get the fighting dogs..."in the mood" to fight, so to speak.

The other way is far worse. They will restrain one dog (tape its mouth shut, etc.) and just let the fighting dog tear it to pieces. This is what Gerald McClellan (former boxer) used to do with the dogs he trained. He would, according to his own words, buy a dog from a local pet shop, take it home, tie it up and let his fighting dog(s) just tear into it. (His life almost makes me believe that karma actually exists)

Those are two ways they use dogs to train other dogs. I'm sure there are more. (EDIT: Well, I guess not. You either let the dog tear the other to pieces or you don't. But I'm sure there are multiple ways of doing either.)

[Groundhog]

Damn.

Actually now that I think of it, about a decade ago I went with a friend to see a lady who was giving away kittens. She took home one of the kittens, and the lady, a very nice old woman with a ton of cats, asked for my friend's number so she could check on how the kitten was doing from time to time. About a week later the lady phoned up to check on the cat, and told my friend that just before we got there a young guy came in and got 4 of the kittens, and how that day he'd phoned her up and told her that right then his pitbull was hunting them in the garage, and she could hear the dog savaging them in the background while the guy laughed. It was a pretty horrible story to hear, and my friend ended up giving her back the kitten to help console her about it.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Axxon

Holy reading too much into my post batman. Bingo, this is exactly all I was saying. Most trainers don't want their animals to die. They want to stop the fight as he said to protect a sizable investment to them. Most of them are poor.

This has nothing to do with the original quote. That guy said the dogs could quit whenever they wanted, just like a boxer. The next line in that article is not related to this quote, it goes off on why most owners don't want their dogs to die. And on that point, I agree. But that doesn't take away from the ridiculous statement preceding it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't.

http://onlineathens.com/stories/0720...70720050.shtml

Poll shows fans split on Vick
Story updated at 11:02 PM on Thursday, July 19, 2007

ATLANTA - Falcons fans are split almost evenly on how they view the indictment of quarterback Michael Vick.

A survey released Thursday by InsiderAdvantage/Majority Opinion shows 47 percent want him released and 48 percent say he should stay until the case plays out.

Just 5 percent had no opinion among those who said they listened to, watched or attended Falcons games.

Vick was indicted Tuesday for alleged involvement with a multi-state dog-fighting scheme based out of land he owns in Virginia. If convicted, he could face up to five years in federal prison.

The indictment accuses him of personally killing dogs that were not deemed to have enough fight in them to be competitive.

Falcons owner Arthur Blank posted a letter to fans on the team web site saying he had made no decision on Vick's future with the team.

"Given the differing perspectives and strong feelings around this issue, we probably won't make everyone happy," it read.

According to the poll, at least half the people will be unhappy whatever the decision.

The telephone survey of 859 people Wednesday evening found a majority of non-fans - 45 percent - would give Vick his walking papers while 37 percent would keep him, and 18 percent had no opinion.

Blacks and white, though, appeared to view the incident very differently, just as was illustrated by a poll released earlier in the week about reaction to slugger Barry Bonds' approach to Hank Aaron's home run record.

Of the fans and non-fans, 54 percent of whites would ax Vick while 66 percent of blacks favor keeping in for the time being.

"If we were to poll this in a political race, the numbers would be devastating because if we're seeing approval ratings on someone this well known under 50 percent, it would basically beg for a new candidate," said InsiderAdvantage CEO Matt Towery.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

This has nothing to do with the original quote. That guy said the dogs could quit whenever they wanted, just like a boxer. The next line in that article is not related to this quote, it goes off on why most owners don't want their dogs to die. And on that point, I agree. But that doesn't take away from the ridiculous statement preceding it.

Ok, my bad:

For a behind-the-scenes look inside the ritualized pro world, NEWSWEEK interviewed "Fat Dog," 45, who didn't want to use his real name because dogfighting is illegal. He raises pit bulls in the low country near Savannah, Ga., and says he can trace his dogs' fighting bloodlines back to the 1800s. "I have attended about 50 professional matches in my life, and I have only seen two or three dogs die. They have every opportunity to quit just like a boxer does," he says. He claims that "90 percent" of dogfight matches don't end in death because of the money invested: "If you lose a good dog, that's $3,500 and then the litter you won't have."

I took everything inside the quotation sets, none of which are attributed to other people and are all broken up by descriptives like "he claims" and "he says" to mean that this is more or less one thought and it's indeed a thought I often heard and still hear about the sport.

I didn't realize that it was actually disjointed quotes one sentence at a time from various interviews. That was my mistake there.

Given that, taking just that one sentence and realizing it's not in context with the rest of the quote, I can clearly see your point. It is a dumb sentence.

[Axxon]

Dola,

I do see what you're saying on reread but I'm not changing my post.

[miked]

I read the indictment and I just don't get it. For a guy with huge amounts of money in bonuses and endorsements, the purses from these fights were like $2,000-$10,000 or something. And there were 4 of them. Even if they did a fight a day and won like 60%, I just don't understand the motivation. I mean, I understand it I guess if you are a sick disturbed individual, but it just doesn't make any sense.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by miked

I read the indictment and I just don't get it. For a guy with huge amounts of money in bonuses and endorsements, the purses from these fights were like $2,000-$10,000 or something. And there were 4 of them. Even if they did a fight a day and won like 60%, I just don't understand the motivation. I mean, I understand it I guess if you are a sick disturbed individual, but it just doesn't make any sense.

there's your answer. Obviously he's a sick fuck.

[Noble_Platypus]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Damn.

Actually now that I think of it, about a decade ago I went with a friend to see a lady who was giving away kittens. She took home one of the kittens, and the lady, a very nice old woman with a ton of cats, asked for my friend's number so she could check on how the kitten was doing from time to time. About a week later the lady phoned up to check on the cat, and told my friend that just before we got there a young guy came in and got 4 of the kittens, and how that day he'd phoned her up and told her that right then his pitbull was hunting them in the garage, and she could hear the dog savaging them in the background while the guy laughed. It was a pretty horrible story to hear, and my friend ended up giving her back the kitten to help console her about it.

That fucking piece of garbage should be in the prison shower with Vick.

[Noble_Platypus]

W. VA Senators thoughts on people involved in dogfighting:

"I am confident that the hottest places in hell are reserved for the souls of sick and brutal people who hold God's creatures in such brutal and cruel contempt," he said.

Couldnt have said it better myself.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Damn.

Actually now that I think of it, about a decade ago I went with a friend to see a lady who was giving away kittens. She took home one of the kittens, and the lady, a very nice old woman with a ton of cats, asked for my friend's number so she could check on how the kitten was doing from time to time. About a week later the lady phoned up to check on the cat, and told my friend that just before we got there a young guy came in and got 4 of the kittens, and how that day he'd phoned her up and told her that right then his pitbull was hunting them in the garage, and she could hear the dog savaging them in the background while the guy laughed. It was a pretty horrible story to hear, and my friend ended up giving her back the kitten to help console her about it.

That's the most harrowing thing I've heard in a while. Calling the lady was the cherry on that shit sundae.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Noble_Platypus

W. VA Senators thoughts on people involved in dogfighting:

"I am confident that the hottest places in hell are reserved for the souls of sick and brutal people who hold God's creatures in such brutal and cruel contempt," he said.

Couldnt have said it better myself.

Yeah, awesome words from an Exalted Cyclops.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by miked

I read the indictment and I just don't get it. For a guy with huge amounts of money in bonuses and endorsements, the purses from these fights were like $2,000-$10,000 or something. And there were 4 of them. Even if they did a fight a day and won like 60%, I just don't understand the motivation. I mean, I understand it I guess if you are a sick disturbed individual, but it just doesn't make any sense.

It's the pleasure of competition and winning. The monetary amounts don't matter; the high of training, fighting and victory through the stable of dogs do.

In that basic form, it's no different from any other hobby that involves contests and winning.

That's not to say that I condone animal fighting. I find it quite reprehensible.

I'm just saying there's a basic psychological enjoyment to be gained from it for those who do engage in it.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't.

http://onlineathens.com/stories/0720...70720050.shtml

Poll shows fans split on Vick
Story updated at 11:02 PM on Thursday, July 19, 2007

ATLANTA - Falcons fans are split almost evenly on how they view the indictment of quarterback Michael Vick.

A survey released Thursday by InsiderAdvantage/Majority Opinion shows 47 percent want him released and 48 percent say he should stay until the case plays out.

Just 5 percent had no opinion among those who said they listened to, watched or attended Falcons games.

Vick was indicted Tuesday for alleged involvement with a multi-state dog-fighting scheme based out of land he owns in Virginia. If convicted, he could face up to five years in federal prison.

The indictment accuses him of personally killing dogs that were not deemed to have enough fight in them to be competitive.

Falcons owner Arthur Blank posted a letter to fans on the team web site saying he had made no decision on Vick's future with the team.

"Given the differing perspectives and strong feelings around this issue, we probably won't make everyone happy," it read.

According to the poll, at least half the people will be unhappy whatever the decision.

The telephone survey of 859 people Wednesday evening found a majority of non-fans - 45 percent - would give Vick his walking papers while 37 percent would keep him, and 18 percent had no opinion.

Blacks and white, though, appeared to view the incident very differently, just as was illustrated by a poll released earlier in the week about reaction to slugger Barry Bonds' approach to Hank Aaron's home run record.

Of the fans and non-fans, 54 percent of whites would ax Vick while 66 percent of blacks favor keeping in for the time being.

"If we were to poll this in a political race, the numbers would be devastating because if we're seeing approval ratings on someone this well known under 50 percent, it would basically beg for a new candidate," said InsiderAdvantage CEO Matt Towery.

Interesting numbers. If the NFL continues to leave the ball in the Falcons' court, I wonder how seriously the Falcons are considering an outright release. I read somewhere that it is a $6 million salary cap this year and $15 million next if they were to release him today. I am guessing that is the only thing that is keeping him on the team right now. Even if he is found innocent on all charges, I can't see anyway he can continue to be the starting QB of the Falcons ever again. Would it be better to cut their losses now and take the chance that the positive feedback outweighs the negative?

[Jas_lov]

Should they really cut him at this point or just give him a leave of absence? Arthur Blank released a statement yesterday that said they were considering the legal issues. I don't think he'll be able to play at all this year either way because of all the preparation and practice that goes in each week that he wouldn't be able to be there for. I guess they could give him a leave of absence and say they're waiting for a verdict. It doesn't seem likely from the evidence and witnesses the Feds have that he'll be found not guilty on all charges. They were just talking on Mike and Mike that the cousin who was busted for the drug charge that started all of this is not one of the ones charged in the indictment so he may have already rolled on Vick to save himself as others probably will too.

Can they recover any of his salary or bonus if he's sent to jail and unable to play or even this year if he can't attend practices and games because of court dates? Maybe they'll keep him around then to save themselves from the cap hit. Otherwise they're probably better off just releasing him.

[Butter]

I'm sure the dog fighting community is thrilled at the glaring spotlight it is now receiving.

[Ksyrup]

They and roided wrestlers cannot be too happy about the recent turn of events.

[TroyF]

I noticed the money thing as well. But as the poster above said, it's your hobby. It can be golf, bowling or being a sick #%$#@ and fighting dogs, it's the hobby that gives you the pleasure.

Vick has some interesting choices to make now. If he's as involved as they say he is, he can bring a lot of people in the dog fighting world down to cut his sentencing down. If he does that, it's almost a certainty that he'd be finished as an NFL QB. His only real chance is to be found innocent.

He'd better hope the Falcons don't suspend him and let him play this year. If he gets to play, that'll likely be the last games he ever plays in as an NFL QB.

[Ksyrup]

I think he not only has to be found innocent, but there has to be reasonable doubt that he is anywhere near as connected to this as alleged. They might not prove their case - doubtful, but certainly possible - but if they at least make any kind of connection here, he's never going to live it down. He may get to play football, but he'll be OJ Lite in the public's eyes. I don't see him turning it around like Kobe, unless his defense utterly shreds the prosecution's case.

[Brillig]

If only Mike Vick had found a socially acceptable form of animals going round and round at each other.

Like... NASCAR.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

Should they really cut him at this point or just give him a leave of absence? Arthur Blank released a statement yesterday that said they were considering the legal issues. I don't think he'll be able to play at all this year either way because of all the preparation and practice that goes in each week that he wouldn't be able to be there for. I guess they could give him a leave of absence and say they're waiting for a verdict. It doesn't seem likely from the evidence and witnesses the Feds have that he'll be found not guilty on all charges. They were just talking on Mike and Mike that the cousin who was busted for the drug charge that started all of this is not one of the ones charged in the indictment so he may have already rolled on Vick to save himself as others probably will too.

Can they recover any of his salary or bonus if he's sent to jail and unable to play or even this year if he can't attend practices and games because of court dates? Maybe they'll keep him around then to save themselves from the cap hit. Otherwise they're probably better off just releasing him.

The reason I asked about an outright release is because I am not clear on the ins and outs of a "leave of absence" Can the Falcons force Vick take a leave of absence or does he have to request one? I am assuming that Vick wants to play this year so he will not ask for it. If they forced him off the field, is that considered a suspension?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Yeah, I doubt anyone would bother to take my chubby old Dachsund (as mean as he can act to strangers), but I can imagine someone taking my beagle-basset hound mix. She is a bigger dog, but she is also pretty timid and shy, and the thought of her being forced to face some gruesome, snarling beast both scares and angers me.

As the owner of a rottweiler mix, I can definitely see someone trying to kidnap my dog for this very reason.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

This sounds horrible enough to be an urban legend. I hope so, anyway.

It's not. I've been repeatedly warned about this by my dog's vet, his trainer, his walker, etc... and instances are sporadically reported in the local press (Chicago).

Originally Posted by TroyF

Vick has some interesting choices to make now. If he's as involved as they say he is, he can bring a lot of people in the dog fighting world down to cut his sentencing down. If he does that, it's almost a certainty that he'd be finished as an NFL QB. His only real chance is to be found innocent.

Unless there's some great reversal in the way things are going (such as the case failing spectacularly, say due to planted evidence or something), I think he's probably going to be nothing but a liability from a PR standpoint, which would make it difficult for a lot of teams to employ him. If he pleas or if he's found guilty, yeah, it's all over.