Who from your favorite team will be on the Mitchell Report?

[JeeberD]

Woohoo, no Bags!

[miami_fan]

Radomski said that he did not sell Vaughn steroids because Vaughn was “afraid of the big needles.”

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

All non-Balco names from the report, according to Deadspin

Roger Clemens
Andy Pettitte

that's 2/5 of the championship rotation of how many yankees World Series? can I get an asterisk?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

can I get an asterisk?

[molson]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

There is no positive test. There is no link to a BALCO or such.

That was kind of the point of the Mitchell report though, to reveal new evidence about new players that hadn't been tied to Balco or positive tests.

Though like I said before, it's obviously not going to be 100% all-encompassing.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

But it can cover those ON the list.

Sure, let's just not label everyone else "clean".

I'm convinved the % of players who has used a banned substance is in the neighborhood of 80-85%, so this list isn't a huge deal or revelation.

[Atocep]

I think the point of the Mitchell report was originally to put an end to the steroid era by giving an all-encompassing account of what happened. IMO, it seems to evolved into a general account of what was going on and some great recommendations on where to go from here.

I don't think the report was an amazing piece of work that shed light on the dark corners of the steroid era, but I do think Mitchell did a pretty damn good job considering what he had to work with. A lot of people are just skimming it for names and its a shame, because that isn't really the point of it. I've read probably the first 70 or so pages so far and its pretty interesting and, IMO, very fair.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by molson

That was kind of the point of the Mitchell report though, to reveal new evidence about new players that hadn't been tied to Balco or positive tests.

Though like I said before, it's obviously not going to be 100% all-encompassing.

That is what I am saying. At this point there has been a lot less evidence linking McGwire and Sosa to drug use than the others.

On a side note, do we need to re-evaluate Rafael Palmeiro's claim that he got a tainted B-12 shot from Miguel Tejada? Obviously, Tejada is not the innocent teammate that we all thought he was in 2005. Maybe Raffy was telling the truth.

[Rizon]

It took me 4 years to get back into baseball after the last strike. I think it will take longer than that for me to get back into the game again. I feel cheated and lied to. A lot of my favorite players are on that list.

I stopped watching the NBA after the last lockout, and never watched since. I'm done with the Olympics already, and pretty much done with the NFL due to poor game coverage. I have no more sports left to watch anymore, so I guess I might as well learn to knit.

[Buccaneer]

I feel cheated and lied to.

I think we found another person that has been living in a cave.

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I think we found another person that has been living in a cave.

I wanted to believe in the good of man.

[Rizon]

I had a feeling Jack Cust was on the juice. I mean, dude comes out and hits 89 homers this year after previously not hitting any homers not even in high school?

Can the 89 A's get an asterisk too? Fuckin posers.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Rizon

I wanted to believe in the good of man.

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I have seen the mystics play there
Once or twice but I knew they had a reason
Enchantment plays it's cards all right
Hand in hand with the working of the seasons

Legends can be now and forever
Teaching us to love for goodness sake
Legends can be now and forever
Loved by the sun, loved by the sun
Loved

Two and two go so close together
Whether there is hope that is torn apart
In the words of all that's singing
Hand in hand the beginning is at the start

Legends can be now and forever
Teaching us to reach for goodness sake
Legends can be now and forever
Loved by the sun
Loved by the sun
Loved

Who sings of all of love's eternity
Whose shines so bright
In all the songs of love's unending spells

Only lightning strikes all that's evil
Teaching us to love for goodness sake
Hear the music of love eternal
Teaching us to reach for goodness sake
Legends can be now and forever
Teaching us to love for goodness sake

Sweet songs of youth, the wise, the meeting of all wisdom
Sweet songs of youth, the wise, the meeting of all wisdom
Sweet songs of youth, the wise, the meeting of all wisdom
Sweet songs of youth, the wise, the meeting of all wisdom
To believe in the good in man.
To believe in the good in man.
To believe in the good in man

[CU Tiger]

How sad is it, that in the midst of these troubled times for baseball, it appears Jose Canseco might have been the sane one after all?

He said in an interview with Rome before the first book came out that he wanted to be responsible for cleaning up baseball. I scoffed like so many others, but really who had more of a driving impact?

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

who had more of a driving impact?

Somewhere, off in the distance, a porsche screams.

[molson]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

How sad is it, that in the midst of these troubled times for baseball, it appears Jose Canseco might have been the sane one after all?

He said in an interview with Rome before the first book came out that he wanted to be responsible for cleaning up baseball. I scoffed like so many others, but really who had more of a driving impact?

I really can't believe people doubted him for so long.

I mean, it wasn't going to be a choir boy that would expose (or know details about) baseball's seedy secrets.

[CU Tiger]

No so much that I doubted him, just amazed that he is the voice of reason...

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

the smaller percentage of users in the Steroids Era created aberations.

Considering the information is mainly from only three sources I highly doubt these 60+ named are the only ones that cheated.

[ISiddiqui]

It is obviously not a comprehensive list. One shouldn't just stop at those not named and assume they are all not using steroids or anything.

[Buccaneer]

That's true but I don't think it would reach anywhere near the percentages of the other sports mentioned. I'm keying off of the statement in the report about how a relatively few were creating an unfair advantage by cheating.

[Carman Bulldog]

Completely agree with the above posts. Unfortunately, that appears to be what some people are taking out of it. These sources are basically just covering off "the supply guy" for about 3-5 teams. It's basically just the Mets guy, the Yanks guy and BALCO. It's not like these were the only three sources for steroids out there. I'm pretty sure players from the Cubs/White Sox could find a guy in Chicago for supplements.

What you really want to do is take that list and multiply it by about 10 to give you a more accurate reflection of the mass consumption and abuse of PE in the late 90's in baseball. There was probably quite a few more big name guys out there that should be on that list that aren't.

And just for fun I'll quote myself from earlier this year:

Is it not fair to assume that a number of pitchers that Bonds hit these homers against were also on the juice?

Lets take a look at the two issues of weight gain and longevity - Roger Clemens put on similar gains from his rookie season to current day weight and has displayed a similar ability to maintain strong performances far past a normal athlete's peak. Why do I rarely hear steroid allegations and never hear calls to keep Clemens out of the Hall?

Clemens was actually on the decline before he left Boston. The late 90's arrive and at the age of 35 he magically revives himself, dominating again for a number of years before baseball cleans itself up and he again suffers a decline in his abilities.

The same can be said for Randy Johnson. Take a look at his numbers leading up to the mid-90's and then his numbers beyond that, leading up to around 2004-2005 and then his numbers since. For his first ten years from 1988-1997, Johnson threw 300+ K's once. Starting in 1998 (at age 34) he threw 300+ K's for five straight seasons (from age 31-40, Nolan Ryan did not hit 300 K's in any season). Do we hear anything about Johnson?

[Oilers9911]

Originally Posted by Rizon

I wanted to believe in the good of man.

There is always women's softball. At least until the big bra-stuffing scandal breaks.

[bhlloy]

It's pretty funny to hear Kurkijan try to defend Clemens. "If everything in the report was true he wouldn't have come out so strongly and denied it"... uh yeah dumbass nobody ever lies to defend themselves. He's not under oath, he and his lawyer can say whatever the hell they want.

For me, the cap fits Clemens just as much as it fits Bonds. You shouldn't be able to come back at 35 after a lot of people have given up on you with an improved fastball and start striking people out at a record pace. I had never looked at Randy Johnson's numbers that way either, but that has got to be the juice too.

I feel sorry for the Hall of Fame. Bonds ball goes in with an asterisk, now where do you stop?

[rowech]

Kurkijan can be alright but you are correct in how naive he is. It's sickening. Then Gammons is on his high horse about players he likes as well. They all deserve each other. Baseball ended for me in '94 and I just need to accept that fact.

[Danny]

It's unfortunate this was such a large part of baseball and probably still is to a degree. Still, out of curiosity, are you fans who are giving up on baseball, have you liked professional football throughout the years? You do realize football players have been juicing for dozens of years now and likely still continue to use various performance enhancers that cant be detected.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by Danny

It's unfortunate this was such a large part of baseball and probably still is to a degree. Still, out of curiosity, are you fans who are giving up on baseball, have you liked professional football throughout the years? You do realize football players have been juicing for dozens of years now and likely still continue to use various performance enhancers that cant be detected.

this has been addressed. At least football has been trying to deal with the problem. Instead of sweeping it under the rug and saying "What problem?".

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by jeff061

this has been addressed. At least football has been trying to deal with the problem. Instead of sweeping it under the rug and saying "What problem?".

Well, giving the appearance of dealing with the problem. PR wise, the NFL is doing wonderfully. But in actual usage, I don't think the NFL is that much better than MLB.

[Butter]

So, any Reds fans still wondering how Hal Morris got on there? He was a solid hitter for 5-6 years there, but the guy hit like 3 HR's a year. He must've REALLY sucked without the juice.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by molson

I really can't believe people doubted him for so long.

I mean, it wasn't going to be a choir boy that would expose (or know details about) baseball's seedy secrets.

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

No so much that I doubted him, just amazed that he is the voice of reason...

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseba...,6539890.story

During yesterday's Fox Business Network's "Happy Hour," Jose Canseco had an observation concerning a current, very prominent Yankee. When asked whether Alex Rodriguez should have been mentioned in the Mitchell Report, Canseco responded: "All I can say is the Mitchell Report is incomplete. I could not believe that his name was not in the report."

[Logan]

Canseco has a second book coming out. I believe it's called, "I Fucking Told You."

[Maple Leafs]

This report isn't actually all that bad from a PR standpoint.

You knew there would be a lot of players on the list, but if you were going to make a list of players who have been whispered about that MLB had to really hope wouldn't be mentioned, I think it would look something like:

- Pujols
- Griffey
- Thomas
- Ramirez
- Ortiz
- Clemens
- Alex Rodriguez
- Ivan Rodriguez

One out of eight isn't bad at all, and I'm sure I'm missing a few...

P.S. Am I reading this right, and Juan Gonzalez isn't on the list? That's almost a dead giveaway that "the list" isn't complete, isn't it?

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

This report isn't actually all that bad from a PR standpoint.

You knew there would be a lot of players on the list, but if you were going to make a list of players who have been whispered about that MLB had to really hope wouldn't be mentioned, I think it would look something like:

- Pujols
- Griffey
- Thomas
- Ramirez
- Ortiz
- Clemens
- Alex Rodriguez
- Ivan Rodriguez

One out of eight isn't bad at all, and I'm sure I'm missing a few...

P.S. Am I reading this right, and Juan Gonzalez isn't on the list? That's almost a dead giveaway that "the list" isn't complete, isn't it?

What? Aren't three of those on the list?

[ISiddiqui]

Um... no?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

It's pretty funny to hear Kurkijan try to defend Clemens. "If everything in the report was true he wouldn't have come out so strongly and denied it"... uh yeah dumbass nobody ever lies to defend themselves. He's not under oath, he and his lawyer can say whatever the hell they want.

Yeah, didn't Michael Vick come out and strongly deny the whole dog fighting thing when it was first announced?

I watched a little ESPN News last night, just hear what the talking heads were saying. I can see the report leading to changes to the way baseball approaches drug testing and the like. But I can't see any reason to investiage past steroid use or any of the allegations made in this report. What will come of it? The MLB wont erase the records or anything like that. Is an asteriks really worth all of the time, money, and energy that would go into such investigations?

The only future impact I can see this having would be on these players' chances to make the Hall of Fame.

[Butter]

They showed like 5-10 minutes of Clemens working out with Pettitte on ESPNEWS. Why?

Then I flipped over to ESPN Classic and saw Clemens in like 4 "This is SportsCenter" commercials. Do they love him or hate him? Even they don't know.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Classic.

There is one of those "breaking news" headlines at the top of the CNN.com page that says: "AP: President Bush says baseball must take steroid report seriously, but not jump to conclusions about individuals named."

Thanks, Mr. President! I'm glad you're paying attention to the serious issues. Now, if only you had followed your own advice and taken those pre-war reports seriously and not jump to conclusions about weapons of mass destructions and all that other nonsense, perhaps we'd have saved thousands of lives and trillions of dollars and not be mired in a useless, pointless and destructive war!

Well, I guess his statement shows that at least he's learned something from all of this. Well done, Mr. President!

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by rowech

Kurkijan can be alright but you are correct in how naive he is. It's sickening. Then Gammons is on his high horse about players he likes as well. They all deserve each other. Baseball ended for me in '94 and I just need to accept that fact.

+1

i havnt watched a game since then

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

How sad is it, that in the midst of these troubled times for baseball, it appears Jose Canseco might have been the sane one after all?

He said in an interview with Rome before the first book came out that he wanted to be responsible for cleaning up baseball. I scoffed like so many others, but really who had more of a driving impact?

Baseball aside for a moment, have you ever seen Canseco on the Surreal Life? He was on it a couple of years ago with Janice Dickinson and some other people, and WOW!!! He is a real piece of work. (My wife watches that crap and I saw a little bit of them )

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

There is always women's softball. At least until the big bra-stuffing scandal breaks.

LOL

Have you seen some of those female softball players? I wouldn't be surprised to see THEM named in the Mitchell report as well.

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Well, giving the appearance of dealing with the problem. PR wise, the NFL is doing wonderfully. But in actual usage, I don't think the NFL is that much better than MLB.

people dont care about roids in football, we kinda expect them to be crazed man-beasts beating on each other. plus football doesnt circle-jerk around "hallowed records" and the "purity of the game" crap. football sells its self on the competative entertainment, baseball sells its self on phoney historical records and tradition. btw where were all these baseball purist on tv complaining about the players in the golden age of baseball ( 50-70's) when it was discovered practically every player was loading up on "leaded coffee" and other amphetamines? thats more of a performance enhancer then roids

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

This report isn't actually all that bad from a PR standpoint.

You knew there would be a lot of players on the list, but if you were going to make a list of players who have been whispered about that MLB had to really hope wouldn't be mentioned, I think it would look something like:

- Pujols
- Griffey
- Thomas
- Ramirez
- Ortiz
- Clemens
- Alex Rodriguez
- Ivan Rodriguez

One out of eight isn't bad at all, and I'm sure I'm missing a few...

P.S. Am I reading this right, and Juan Gonzalez isn't on the list? That's almost a dead giveaway that "the list" isn't complete, isn't it?

David Ortiz has a huge melon. Griffey, with all of his injuries, probably juiced at some point in his career. I wouldn't be surprised if Manny Ramirez did, but for some reason I doubt it. I am sure Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez did. Ditto for Frank Thomas. Not sure about Pujols. We already know about Clemens. That leaves A-Rod. After seeing pictures of him when he was with Seattle compared to pictures of him last year, I would not at all be surprised to see his name surface at some point. His arms, neck, and thighs are huge compared to a decade ago. The thing that would cause me to pause with him is the fact that his numbers have remained constant throughout. It's not like he hit 10 homeruns in 2000, then all of a sudden started hitting 50 every year. But by his looks, it would not surprise me. Otherwise, he might really just have an intense workout....

[Butter]

I continue to deny that Griffey did steroids... or if he did, he got the least out of them over the last few years of anyone in the history of the universe.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by rowech

Kurkijan can be alright but you are correct in how naive he is. It's sickening. Then Gammons is on his high horse about players he likes as well. They all deserve each other. Baseball ended for me in '94 and I just need to accept that fact.

It pretty much did for me as well. Except during the playoffs, then I watch the Red Sox. But that's about it.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I continue to deny that Griffey did steroids... or if he did, he got the least out of them over the last few years of anyone in the history of the universe.

I dunno, Jerry Hairston, Jr. wasn't exactly winning batting titles.....

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

David Ortiz has a huge melon. Griffey, with all of his injuries, probably juiced at some point in his career. I wouldn't be surprised if Manny Ramirez did, but for some reason I doubt it. I am sure Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez did. Ditto for Frank Thomas. Not sure about Pujols. We already know about Clemens. That leaves A-Rod. After seeing pictures of him when he was with Seattle compared to pictures of him last year, I would not at all be surprised to see his name surface at some point. His arms, neck, and thighs are huge compared to a decade ago. The thing that would cause me to pause with him is the fact that his numbers have remained constant throughout. It's not like he hit 10 homeruns in 2000, then all of a sudden started hitting 50 every year. But by his looks, it would not surprise me. Otherwise, he might really just have an intense workout....

I'm not saying none of those guys have ever used anything. Just that having almost all of them left out of the report has to be considered relatively good news for baseball.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

I dunno, Jerry Hairston, Jr. wasn't exactly winning batting titles.....

I'm talking injury-wise though. Steroids are supposed to help you recover more quickly from injuries. Griffey has become a running joke due to injuries.

Not saying he hasn't done them, because in my opinion, everyone is under suspicion at this point.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I'm talking injury-wise though. Steroids are supposed to help you recover more quickly from injuries. Griffey has become a running joke due to injuries.

Not saying he hasn't done them, because in my opinion, everyone is under suspicion at this point.

Injury-wise you should include Eric Gagne as well. Even Kevin Brown (not named in the report but.....).

[MikeVic]

Just fold the league already and start a new one with new records from scratch. Imagine every night with headlines like "ARod breaks the career HR mark with 5 HR."

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Just fold the league already and start a new one with new records from scratch. Imagine every night with headlines like "ARod breaks the career HR mark with 5 HR."

Ha, just like one of the older versions of OOTP when you'd sim the first game of a career and records were being broken on seemingly every play.